As a matter of fact, yes. True Polymorph would go through, the target is a shapechanger... It no longer is a valid target because it has no affect on shapechangers, and the target instantly reverts back.
the type has to BE a shapechanger, a brass dragon has the "change shape" option, but its creature type is just dragon. Now the question would indeed be left open to a gray slaad, considering its creature type is aberration (shapechanger)
All concentration spells end if the caster is reduced to 0 hp or dies, that's just how concentration works.
If the target is not valid due to being at 0 hp or a shapechanger then true polymorph doesn't work anyway.
If the target is valid and you cast true polymorph then the targeting and casting parts are over, if you choose to polymorph your valid target into a shapechanger you can, once it becomes a shapechanger it doeen't end the true polymorph spell because true polymorph is no longer targeting, the spell has already been legally cast. Now you have to follow the rules for ending the spell, dispelling or 0 hp or dying, and that is only for the first hour, after that only dispelling.
With the hold person spell they only have to be a valid target for the casting of the spell (this is the case with most spells) and the duration is up to 1 minute. It ends early if the save is made.
The 0 hp thing for polymorph is for the target, not for the caster. If the target is reduced to 0 hps, it reverts back to its original form. Among the reasons for this is the pretty obvious concern than otherwise landing true polymorph + an hour concentration equals autowin. True polymorph the proverbial (non-shapechanging) dragon into a slug, put it in a container and concentrate for an hour, then squish the slug.
This isn't surprising considering it is a 9th-level spell, that will be competed against using a wisdom saving throw, that the dragon will then use legendary resistance to instantly succeed if it were to fail and hadn't used all of its legendary resistance up at this point, and it's assuming you are still alive as a spell caster that had to be within 30ft of a said dragon.
that's not "auto win" that "widdled away the target until they are weak and cannot do anything more to fight me", which is what we call and EARNED win. and a waste of a spell slot seeing as you could just land a killing blow instead of wasting all of that time and a 9th-level spell slot that could be used to just grant yourself resistance to any damage you want indefinitely using wish.
Just to be clear, if after the hour is up and the target drops to 0 hp it does not change back... the effect of true polymorph is then permanent except for dispel magic.
Just to be clearer, if a druid is knocked out while wild shaped (an ability which does not need concentration to maintain) they also revert back to their normal form, with exactly the same mechanism (excess damaging carrying over).
Someone is true polymorphed into a goldfish and tossed in the ocean. A bigger fish eats them and digests them, however since (by your interpretation) the spell only ends via dispel magic, is that bigger fish now magical? Later on, the bigger fish is caught by a fisherman, taken home and served to the family. Is the family now magical? If a dispel is cast on one of them do each of the family members cough up (or choke on) whatever proportion of the original body that corresponds to the portion of the fish they ate?
If the spell does not end on the target being reduced to 0 hps, it gets very silly and headache inducing.
He said nothing about the other creatures being magical, the magical creature is DEAD AND DIGESTED, IT IS GONE, although a funny hypothetical.
But according to that logic, the creatures of the material plain where first creatures by GODS which makes them magical, then they had babies, and now the chromosomes which are imbedded into them are magical, and then the creatures they eat are all magical. and everything is so magical that it seems like a RPG table top game that has a section in its main manual (phb) titled "magical world"
It tells you you cannot polymorph a Ancient Gold Dragon into a house cat, and you cannot murder someone and then change their body into an end table to hide the crime.
Actually, you can. A dead body is not a creature, and is thus a valid target. It's only a creature that's at 0 hp but still alive that can't be targeted.
agreed, hence why it says zero hitpoints, and not dead
like the resurrection spell, which clearly states it targets a creature that is dead
As a matter of fact, yes. True Polymorph would go through, the target is a shapechanger... It no longer is a valid target because it has no affect on shapechangers, and the target instantly reverts back.
the type has to BE a shapechanger, a brass dragon has the "change shape" option, but its creature type is just dragon. Now the question would indeed be left open to a gray slaad, considering its creature type is aberration (shapechanger)
There is no "shapechanger" creature type... the creature types are as follows: aberration, beast, celestial, construct, dragon, elemental, fey, fiend, giant, humanoid, monstrosity, ooze, plant, or undead. "Shapechanger" is a trait, shared by the oni, werewolf, and vampire. "Change Shape" is an action, and theres where the gray area/argument comes in: does a creature with the "change shape" action but not the "shapechanger" trait meet the intent of the rule.
In the actual phb, it says the “transformation becomes permanent”. It doesn’t say the spell becomes permanent. The spell actually ends when the hour is up. Target does not revert at 0 hp once the transformation is permanent. There is no active magic to dispel. There is no confusion about eating magical fish because the magic is done with the task of permanently transforming the target. You want to change back? You cast True Polymorph again and spend an hour concentrating on that change.
In the actual phb, it says the “transformation becomes permanent”.
That's not what it currently says, as the PHB text has been errata'd; the current text of true polymorph is "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled".
This means there's always a spell, it just no longer has a time limit and doesn't require concentration.
What's debatable in this case is whether the transformed creature still reverts if reduced to 0 hit-points or slain; I suspect the intention is yes, and that until dispelled is only meant to lift the duration limit, but it can easily be read as overriding both.
It’s a 9th level spell. It should be permanent. If you want an ordinary polymorph, there is a 4th level spell for that.
Regular polymorph only lets you turn into beasts (which have a maximum CR of 8 iirc); it's a 9th-level spell because it lets you turn an enemy into a rock and throw them to the bottom of the ocean, or turn yourself or an ally into an adult gold dragon (CR 17) or stronger and potentially stay as that for as long as you like. It's plenty powerful for a 9th-level spell.
If the transformation were actually permanent it would mean it would be impossible to reverse it outside of the wish spell, it would be immune to an antimagic field (when even wish doesn't work inside one, and can't affect one unless your DM lets you rewrite history so it never existed or reshape reality around it), and even if you turned into something capable of casting dispel magic you'd be unable to turn yourself back (as mentioned, dropping to 0-hp may not do it).
You could reverse it by casting true polymorph again.
As far as the Antimagic field goes, if you create food and water, and eat it, you don’t suddenly become hungry and thirsty when you step inside an Antimagic field. If you ate conjured food and water every day of your life, you wouldn’t disappear when you stepped inside an Antimagic field. In either case, the magic creates something or changes something, and that change is permanent.
It should be permanent. It is easier if it is permanent. It makes more sense if it is permanent.
There are other 9th level spells that could dispose of an enemy just as easily. Maybe none quite so hilarious, but this one takes an entire hour. Power word kill is one action.
You could reverse it by casting true polymorph again.
This wouldn't work for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, you can't turn into player characters using true polymorph as they don't have a Challenge Rating so they aren't eligible transformations.
Secondly, because the rules on Combining Magical Effects prevent the second polymorph from taking effect; this is because you can't be affected by two instances of the same spell at the same time, so if the same spell is cast again only the most "potent" effect takes priority, which would be the one with the unlimited duration. The only way you could argue this is if you persistently became a lower CR creature, and a later spell chose a higher CR creature (more "potent"), but this wouldn't end the previous spell, only suppress it for as long as the second effect lasts, so you can't revert this way.
As far as the Antimagic field goes, if you create food and water, and eat it, you don’t suddenly become hungry and thirsty when you step inside an Antimagic field. If you ate conjured food and water every day of your life, you wouldn’t disappear when you stepped inside an Antimagic field. In either case, the magic creates something or changes something, and that change is permanent.
That only works because the food created by create food and water is no longer an object created by magic if you've eaten it; if you created food/water with a spell and carried it into the antimagic field it would wink out of existence according to the Creatures and Objects clause. But the consumed food case is no different to being healed by magic (the hit-points don't go away inside the antimagic field) etc., as soon as the effect is no longer a magical effect in its own right, it ceases to be vulnerable to antimagic.
But as already pointed out, true polymorph is a spell with either limited or unlimited duration, so there is always an ongoing spell and magic effect involved, so the moment you enter an [Tooltip Not Found] field the spell's effect(s) are suppressed, and your transformation would reverse until you exit the field.
It should be permanent. It is easier if it is permanent. It makes more sense if it is permanent.
It actually isn't; when a player character permanently becomes a monster they cease to be a player character, they become a creature under the DM's control, as the DM controls all monsters. Even monsters like pets aren't really under the player's control, as the player character in Rules As Written only summons and commands the creature, it's actually the DM who technically controls it, though I doubt you'll find many who actually do as it's much easier to let the player take charge of it.
Spells like (true) polymorph and abilities like Wildshape are specific exceptions to transforming a player character precisely because they are not permanent, i.e- there is still a player character under there somewhere, merely with its game statistics temporarily replaced, even if that "temporary" is potentially a very long time.
There are other 9th level spells that could dispose of an enemy just as easily. Maybe none quite so hilarious, but this one takes an entire hour. Power word kill is one action.
True polymorph is also an action; it only takes an hour for the concentration requirement to end, but if you've turned the last enemy into an object there's nothing they can do to stop you, you just have to be careful not to be brain yourself on a low door frame or whatever so you don't lose concentration.
Haravikk, thanks for taking the time to reply, and break down a point by point explanation of why you think this wouldn't work, and why the seemingly well established precedent for these interactions should continue to be followed, especially considering that the spell text was reworded at least once for a new print edition.
I'm not sure how to break up my response like you did on here, and reply line by line, nicely done btw. I did see a source editor, but I didn't feel like diving in to the code to try to replicate the response style. I'm sure there is a much simpler way to achieve that effect that I just don't know about yet, but I digress.
I would posit firstly, that you should be able to use True Polymorph to transform into any creature that you've seen, including an NPC or another player character, assuming equivalent CR or Level. Your points about level and CR seem valid, but let's use an example and see if this makes sense.
So, let's say I am a level 18 Human Wizard and I want to True Polymorph myself into an Orc. Maybe i transform myself into an exact replica of an Orc I saw at a tavern the other day, doesn't matter. Let's assume that I concentrate for an hour, and the transformation becomes permanent (ignoring the new wording), and now I'm a level 18 Orc Wizard, and there is no longer an active True Polymorph spell effect. Humans and Orcs, and other playable races, the base races themselves don't really have a base CR. It's all based on class and class levels. What would stop me from casting True Polymorph again, and turning into a Human again? Or turning into the an exact replica of the Human I was before? Based on my interpretation of the original wording, there is no longer an active spell (circumventing your argument about Combining Magical Effects), and my Level/CR has not changed. So, why would this not work?
I would posit secondly, that the food and water created by a Create Food and Water spell would not wink out of existence inside an Antimagic field. Conversely, I would argue that it would persist indefinitely inside an Antimagic field, as there would be no way for the magic to return that food or water to wherever it came from originally. I also think familiars would not wink out of existence inside an Antimagic field, since they are similarly gated in, or created using magic, and would subsequently actually physically exist on a permanent basis outside of the context of the spell that brought them to you, but that's another argument entirely, and I'm just mentioning it for context on my position here.
I would posit thirdly, that if I were to use True Polymorph on my character, whatever the resulting creature was, I would still be in control of my character in the new form.
And for your fourth point, I concede, that the effect is the same, minus the hour of waiting.
My goal isn't really to convince you otherwise, but simply to provide an alternative perspective for what still seems to be a topic for debate.
Definitely going to check out all of that sweet homebrew in your signature line too.
I'm not sure how to break up my response like you did on here, and reply line by line, nicely done btw.
If you hit the "Quote" button at the bottom right of a post that you want to reply to it should quote the post for you in the "Reply to this Topic" box.
To separate the quotes you can put your cursor anywhere you want to create a "break" and hit enter/return a few times, which should cause it to separate into two boxes (if you only get new lines sometimes you need to click one of those and try again, then delete any leftovers). It can be a bit fiddly depending upon your browser.
It's also a good idea to get rid of parts of quotes you don't need, i.e- get rid of any extra detail that you're not specifically responding to. This is absolutely recommended when quoting me as I have a nasty habit of writing way too much. 😂
I would posit firstly, that you should be able to use True Polymorph to transform into any creature that you've seen, including an NPC or another player character, assuming equivalent CR or Level. Your points about level and CR seem valid, but let's use an example and see if this makes sense.
I should have probably clarified sooner, but because this is the Rules & Games Mechanics forum you'll tend to find that most people (like myself) are focused on the "Rules As Written" (what the rules say exactly), sometimes expanding into "Rules As Intended" when the exact wording is unclear (or interacts strangely), also this covers when developers have discussed things outside the rules on Twitter etc. that sometimes give us insights into how they intended for a feature to function. I'm always happy to discuss how rules can be altered to suit different scenarios, or how to run weird cases that the rules don't really cover, but that can edge towards Homebrew & House Rules.
That said, one of the first rules in D&D 5e is basically that your DM's word is law; that's not usually helpful on this forum as people are looking for what the rules actually say or how they're supposed to work, but if you're a DM, or you talk to your DM about something, they can run it however they want. So if you want to add additional restrictions, or work out some rules for turning into forms that aren't supported in RAW (Rules As Written) then it is absolutely possible for that to happen in game.
Likewise if you want true polymorph to essentially be the jumping off point for your character's "final form" or the end of their story then you can absolutely do that too. For example, one of my own characters (Dracarys Noir) was my take on "I want to play as a dragon", but since that would clearly be far too powerful for early levels I decided to go with the angle of him actually being cursed, trapping him in the form of a dragonborn sorcerer with a lot of dragon-themed spells (or as close as I could manage) so I needed nothing special to play the character. The idea was that as I progressed I would eventually learn true polymorph (as a homebrew rule since sorcerers can't normally get that spell) and this would enable him to turn back into his true form temporarily. The idea being to keep it balanced, i.e- other than getting the spell, the character is using mostly core mechanics as intended. But eventually his story would end with him being permanently turned back once the curse is fully lifted, and that'd be the end of his story.
That's not actually how it panned out in practice, in the end I decided I wanted to switch back to an earlier character that I'd stopped playing (went missing earlier in the campaign) so Dracarys' curse ended up being lifted sooner as an end to his story. Now the dragon Inoraxis is just an occasional NPC monster helping the party to get into the Feywilds (a place he's been himself but can't/won't return to).
Sorry, that's a bit wordy, but it's an example of using the rule in a (mostly) standard way to serve a story beat. The only really non-standard part was negotiating for access to the spell so I could transform myself "back"; plus it's just silly that Draconic Sorcerers are one of the few spellcasters in the game that can't turn into a dragon in 5e (meanwhile any Bard, Druid, Warlock or Wizard can do-so).
So, let's say I am a level 18 Human Wizard and I want to True Polymorph myself into an Orc. Maybe i transform myself into an exact replica of an Orc I saw at a tavern the other day, doesn't matter. Let's assume that I concentrate for an hour, and the transformation becomes permanent (ignoring the new wording), and now I'm a level 18 Orc Wizard, and there is no longer an active True Polymorph spell effect.
The problem is that true polymorph is supposed to replace your game statistics with those of a monster, so to turn into an orc you'd need a suitable monster profile for that (and you probably want something stronger than the CR 1/2 orc in the basic rules). You also don't remain a level 18 Wizard as such, because all of your game statistics are replaced for as long as the transformation (and spell) lasts; in other words you lose access to all of your own class features, racial traits etc. until you turn back. Only Wildshape and shapechange retain any of your own stats beyond things like alignment and personality.
You could however turn into something like an archmage (which is basically an 18th-level Wizard) and since those can be of any race it could be an orc archmage if you like, and since appearance isn't specified it can even resemble someone you know, an identity you've used as a disguise etc.
Again, your DM is free to customise this if they like; if you give them advance warning that you want to turn into something specific, they could create a monster profile for that, or copy the archmage and give it a custom spell-list, but this is still technically homebrew as they're creating their own monsters for you to turn into. As would turning into another player character.
It's worth noting also that player level and Challenge Rating aren't equivalent; this is why the archmage is CR 12 despite being an 18th-level Wizard, because Challenge Rating is essentially a measure of what level of adventuring party (of four) is required to defeat them in a challenging encounter. So turning into another player character of 20th-level would technically still be weaker than the the CR20 monsters you could be turning into, so in balance terms it's something that a DM could be okay with, especially considering the spell doesn't replicate items (so it'd be another player character with only default gear, if that).
I would posit secondly, that the food and water created by a Create Food and Water spell would not wink out of existence inside an Antimagic field. Conversely, I would argue that it would persist indefinitely inside an Antimagic field, as there would be no way for the magic to return that food or water to wherever it came from originally. I also think familiars would not wink out of existence inside an Antimagic field, since they are similarly gated in, or created using magic, and would subsequently actually physically exist on a permanent basis outside of the context of the spell that brought them to you, but that's another argument entirely, and I'm just mentioning it for context on my position here.
Your DM is free to rule otherwise, but in RAW both the food and familiars wink out of existence as they are creatures/objects summoned or created by magic (and antimagic field has a specific clause for that). The only real exception we've been given is undead creatures since the spells to animate them don't persist, and the corpses were technically already (dead) creatures so they're not really "created or summoned". It's not the most well defined distinction though.
But true polymorph definitely doesn't persist as with the errata'd wording it's an ongoing spell and an antimagic field definitely affects those; it was a potential worry for my Dracarys Noir plan but I'd have probably just described that as the field blocking the spell used to free him from the curse (allowing the curse to reassert itself) or something.
I would posit thirdly, that if I were to use True Polymorph on my character, whatever the resulting creature was, I would still be in control of my character in the new form.
You do so for the current version of the spell because that's how it works as a temporary effect, same as with Wildshape etc., but a player permanently becoming a monster technically makes them an NPC under the DM's control as there's no longer a player character. Again, a DM can handle that differently if they prefer, and as I say you won't find many DM's who aren't happy for players to run monsters where it makes sense to, e.g- their familiars, pets etc. because it's easier and more fun, but they're still technically the DM's to run if they wish.
Again in Dracarys/Inoraxis' case, him successfully lifting his curse for good has made him an NPC monster and I'm fine with that. I still RP as him when he features (because it's my creation, and the DM is happy with that as long as I don't go off script). There's also a possibility I can play as him later as the character I've switched to can also eventually get true polymorph, so could turn into Inoraxis' monster profile as a "summon" spell because we have monster stats for that (adult black dragon + the shadow dragon template, or maybe a custom CR20 profile). Going to be a while till we get there though (campaign's still only at 13th-level, and the character in question is multi-classed so it'll be 20th-level by the time they get the spell).
Definitely going to check out all of that sweet homebrew in your signature line too.
Feel free! The Draconic Sorcery sub-class is the one I used for Dracarys Noir. 😉
Apologies this has turned into a giant wall of text, see what I mean about me writing too much? 😂
TL;DR version is "the points I've raised about the spell are for how it works in the rules as written, but you can (and should) discuss with your DM how you'd like spells to work for you as you get close to gaining access to them if you have specific story goals in mind".
the type has to BE a shapechanger, a brass dragon has the "change shape" option, but its creature type is just dragon. Now the question would indeed be left open to a gray slaad, considering its creature type is aberration (shapechanger)
This isn't surprising considering it is a 9th-level spell, that will be competed against using a wisdom saving throw, that the dragon will then use legendary resistance to instantly succeed if it were to fail and hadn't used all of its legendary resistance up at this point, and it's assuming you are still alive as a spell caster that had to be within 30ft of a said dragon.
that's not "auto win" that "widdled away the target until they are weak and cannot do anything more to fight me", which is what we call and EARNED win. and a waste of a spell slot seeing as you could just land a killing blow instead of wasting all of that time and a 9th-level spell slot that could be used to just grant yourself resistance to any damage you want indefinitely using wish.
He said nothing about the other creatures being magical, the magical creature is DEAD AND DIGESTED, IT IS GONE, although a funny hypothetical.
But according to that logic, the creatures of the material plain where first creatures by GODS which makes them magical, then they had babies, and now the chromosomes which are imbedded into them are magical, and then the creatures they eat are all magical. and everything is so magical that it seems like a RPG table top game that has a section in its main manual (phb) titled "magical world"
which is exactly what it is!
agreed, hence why it says zero hitpoints, and not dead
like the resurrection spell, which clearly states it targets a creature that is dead
There is no "shapechanger" creature type... the creature types are as follows: aberration, beast, celestial, construct, dragon, elemental, fey, fiend, giant, humanoid, monstrosity, ooze, plant, or undead. "Shapechanger" is a trait, shared by the oni, werewolf, and vampire. "Change Shape" is an action, and theres where the gray area/argument comes in: does a creature with the "change shape" action but not the "shapechanger" trait meet the intent of the rule.
In the actual phb, it says the “transformation becomes permanent”. It doesn’t say the spell becomes permanent. The spell actually ends when the hour is up. Target does not revert at 0 hp once the transformation is permanent. There is no active magic to dispel. There is no confusion about eating magical fish because the magic is done with the task of permanently transforming the target. You want to change back? You cast True Polymorph again and spend an hour concentrating on that change.
Crawford is wrong.
That's not what it currently says, as the PHB text has been errata'd; the current text of true polymorph is "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled".
This means there's always a spell, it just no longer has a time limit and doesn't require concentration.
What's debatable in this case is whether the transformed creature still reverts if reduced to 0 hit-points or slain; I suspect the intention is yes, and that until dispelled is only meant to lift the duration limit, but it can easily be read as overriding both.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
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If they changed the wording of the spell in later editions, they shouldn’t have. It is much more straightforward if the transformation is permanent.
It’s a 9th level spell. It should be permanent. If you want an ordinary polymorph, there is a 4th level spell for that.
I cannot imagine why they would want to complicate this by adding all this extra cheese.
Regular polymorph only lets you turn into beasts (which have a maximum CR of 8 iirc); it's a 9th-level spell because it lets you turn an enemy into a rock and throw them to the bottom of the ocean, or turn yourself or an ally into an adult gold dragon (CR 17) or stronger and potentially stay as that for as long as you like. It's plenty powerful for a 9th-level spell.
If the transformation were actually permanent it would mean it would be impossible to reverse it outside of the wish spell, it would be immune to an antimagic field (when even wish doesn't work inside one, and can't affect one unless your DM lets you rewrite history so it never existed or reshape reality around it), and even if you turned into something capable of casting dispel magic you'd be unable to turn yourself back (as mentioned, dropping to 0-hp may not do it).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
You could reverse it by casting true polymorph again.
As far as the Antimagic field goes, if you create food and water, and eat it, you don’t suddenly become hungry and thirsty when you step inside an Antimagic field. If you ate conjured food and water every day of your life, you wouldn’t disappear when you stepped inside an Antimagic field. In either case, the magic creates something or changes something, and that change is permanent.
It should be permanent. It is easier if it is permanent. It makes more sense if it is permanent.
There are other 9th level spells that could dispose of an enemy just as easily. Maybe none quite so hilarious, but this one takes an entire hour. Power word kill is one action.
This wouldn't work for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, you can't turn into player characters using true polymorph as they don't have a Challenge Rating so they aren't eligible transformations.
Secondly, because the rules on Combining Magical Effects prevent the second polymorph from taking effect; this is because you can't be affected by two instances of the same spell at the same time, so if the same spell is cast again only the most "potent" effect takes priority, which would be the one with the unlimited duration. The only way you could argue this is if you persistently became a lower CR creature, and a later spell chose a higher CR creature (more "potent"), but this wouldn't end the previous spell, only suppress it for as long as the second effect lasts, so you can't revert this way.
That only works because the food created by create food and water is no longer an object created by magic if you've eaten it; if you created food/water with a spell and carried it into the antimagic field it would wink out of existence according to the Creatures and Objects clause. But the consumed food case is no different to being healed by magic (the hit-points don't go away inside the antimagic field) etc., as soon as the effect is no longer a magical effect in its own right, it ceases to be vulnerable to antimagic.
But as already pointed out, true polymorph is a spell with either limited or unlimited duration, so there is always an ongoing spell and magic effect involved, so the moment you enter an [Tooltip Not Found] field the spell's effect(s) are suppressed, and your transformation would reverse until you exit the field.
It actually isn't; when a player character permanently becomes a monster they cease to be a player character, they become a creature under the DM's control, as the DM controls all monsters. Even monsters like pets aren't really under the player's control, as the player character in Rules As Written only summons and commands the creature, it's actually the DM who technically controls it, though I doubt you'll find many who actually do as it's much easier to let the player take charge of it.
Spells like (true) polymorph and abilities like Wildshape are specific exceptions to transforming a player character precisely because they are not permanent, i.e- there is still a player character under there somewhere, merely with its game statistics temporarily replaced, even if that "temporary" is potentially a very long time.
True polymorph is also an action; it only takes an hour for the concentration requirement to end, but if you've turned the last enemy into an object there's nothing they can do to stop you, you just have to be careful not to be brain yourself on a low door frame or whatever so you don't lose concentration.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Haravikk, thanks for taking the time to reply, and break down a point by point explanation of why you think this wouldn't work, and why the seemingly well established precedent for these interactions should continue to be followed, especially considering that the spell text was reworded at least once for a new print edition.
I'm not sure how to break up my response like you did on here, and reply line by line, nicely done btw. I did see a source editor, but I didn't feel like diving in to the code to try to replicate the response style. I'm sure there is a much simpler way to achieve that effect that I just don't know about yet, but I digress.
I would posit firstly, that you should be able to use True Polymorph to transform into any creature that you've seen, including an NPC or another player character, assuming equivalent CR or Level. Your points about level and CR seem valid, but let's use an example and see if this makes sense.
So, let's say I am a level 18 Human Wizard and I want to True Polymorph myself into an Orc. Maybe i transform myself into an exact replica of an Orc I saw at a tavern the other day, doesn't matter. Let's assume that I concentrate for an hour, and the transformation becomes permanent (ignoring the new wording), and now I'm a level 18 Orc Wizard, and there is no longer an active True Polymorph spell effect. Humans and Orcs, and other playable races, the base races themselves don't really have a base CR. It's all based on class and class levels. What would stop me from casting True Polymorph again, and turning into a Human again? Or turning into the an exact replica of the Human I was before? Based on my interpretation of the original wording, there is no longer an active spell (circumventing your argument about Combining Magical Effects), and my Level/CR has not changed. So, why would this not work?
I would posit secondly, that the food and water created by a Create Food and Water spell would not wink out of existence inside an Antimagic field. Conversely, I would argue that it would persist indefinitely inside an Antimagic field, as there would be no way for the magic to return that food or water to wherever it came from originally. I also think familiars would not wink out of existence inside an Antimagic field, since they are similarly gated in, or created using magic, and would subsequently actually physically exist on a permanent basis outside of the context of the spell that brought them to you, but that's another argument entirely, and I'm just mentioning it for context on my position here.
I would posit thirdly, that if I were to use True Polymorph on my character, whatever the resulting creature was, I would still be in control of my character in the new form.
And for your fourth point, I concede, that the effect is the same, minus the hour of waiting.
My goal isn't really to convince you otherwise, but simply to provide an alternative perspective for what still seems to be a topic for debate.
Definitely going to check out all of that sweet homebrew in your signature line too.
If you hit the "Quote" button at the bottom right of a post that you want to reply to it should quote the post for you in the "Reply to this Topic" box.
To separate the quotes you can put your cursor anywhere you want to create a "break" and hit enter/return a few times, which should cause it to separate into two boxes (if you only get new lines sometimes you need to click one of those and try again, then delete any leftovers). It can be a bit fiddly depending upon your browser.
It's also a good idea to get rid of parts of quotes you don't need, i.e- get rid of any extra detail that you're not specifically responding to. This is absolutely recommended when quoting me as I have a nasty habit of writing way too much. 😂
I should have probably clarified sooner, but because this is the Rules & Games Mechanics forum you'll tend to find that most people (like myself) are focused on the "Rules As Written" (what the rules say exactly), sometimes expanding into "Rules As Intended" when the exact wording is unclear (or interacts strangely), also this covers when developers have discussed things outside the rules on Twitter etc. that sometimes give us insights into how they intended for a feature to function. I'm always happy to discuss how rules can be altered to suit different scenarios, or how to run weird cases that the rules don't really cover, but that can edge towards Homebrew & House Rules.
That said, one of the first rules in D&D 5e is basically that your DM's word is law; that's not usually helpful on this forum as people are looking for what the rules actually say or how they're supposed to work, but if you're a DM, or you talk to your DM about something, they can run it however they want. So if you want to add additional restrictions, or work out some rules for turning into forms that aren't supported in RAW (Rules As Written) then it is absolutely possible for that to happen in game.
Likewise if you want true polymorph to essentially be the jumping off point for your character's "final form" or the end of their story then you can absolutely do that too. For example, one of my own characters (Dracarys Noir) was my take on "I want to play as a dragon", but since that would clearly be far too powerful for early levels I decided to go with the angle of him actually being cursed, trapping him in the form of a dragonborn sorcerer with a lot of dragon-themed spells (or as close as I could manage) so I needed nothing special to play the character. The idea was that as I progressed I would eventually learn true polymorph (as a homebrew rule since sorcerers can't normally get that spell) and this would enable him to turn back into his true form temporarily. The idea being to keep it balanced, i.e- other than getting the spell, the character is using mostly core mechanics as intended. But eventually his story would end with him being permanently turned back once the curse is fully lifted, and that'd be the end of his story.
That's not actually how it panned out in practice, in the end I decided I wanted to switch back to an earlier character that I'd stopped playing (went missing earlier in the campaign) so Dracarys' curse ended up being lifted sooner as an end to his story. Now the dragon Inoraxis is just an occasional NPC monster helping the party to get into the Feywilds (a place he's been himself but can't/won't return to).
Sorry, that's a bit wordy, but it's an example of using the rule in a (mostly) standard way to serve a story beat. The only really non-standard part was negotiating for access to the spell so I could transform myself "back"; plus it's just silly that Draconic Sorcerers are one of the few spellcasters in the game that can't turn into a dragon in 5e (meanwhile any Bard, Druid, Warlock or Wizard can do-so).
The problem is that true polymorph is supposed to replace your game statistics with those of a monster, so to turn into an orc you'd need a suitable monster profile for that (and you probably want something stronger than the CR 1/2 orc in the basic rules). You also don't remain a level 18 Wizard as such, because all of your game statistics are replaced for as long as the transformation (and spell) lasts; in other words you lose access to all of your own class features, racial traits etc. until you turn back. Only Wildshape and shapechange retain any of your own stats beyond things like alignment and personality.
You could however turn into something like an archmage (which is basically an 18th-level Wizard) and since those can be of any race it could be an orc archmage if you like, and since appearance isn't specified it can even resemble someone you know, an identity you've used as a disguise etc.
Again, your DM is free to customise this if they like; if you give them advance warning that you want to turn into something specific, they could create a monster profile for that, or copy the archmage and give it a custom spell-list, but this is still technically homebrew as they're creating their own monsters for you to turn into. As would turning into another player character.
It's worth noting also that player level and Challenge Rating aren't equivalent; this is why the archmage is CR 12 despite being an 18th-level Wizard, because Challenge Rating is essentially a measure of what level of adventuring party (of four) is required to defeat them in a challenging encounter. So turning into another player character of 20th-level would technically still be weaker than the the CR20 monsters you could be turning into, so in balance terms it's something that a DM could be okay with, especially considering the spell doesn't replicate items (so it'd be another player character with only default gear, if that).
Your DM is free to rule otherwise, but in RAW both the food and familiars wink out of existence as they are creatures/objects summoned or created by magic (and antimagic field has a specific clause for that). The only real exception we've been given is undead creatures since the spells to animate them don't persist, and the corpses were technically already (dead) creatures so they're not really "created or summoned". It's not the most well defined distinction though.
But true polymorph definitely doesn't persist as with the errata'd wording it's an ongoing spell and an antimagic field definitely affects those; it was a potential worry for my Dracarys Noir plan but I'd have probably just described that as the field blocking the spell used to free him from the curse (allowing the curse to reassert itself) or something.
You do so for the current version of the spell because that's how it works as a temporary effect, same as with Wildshape etc., but a player permanently becoming a monster technically makes them an NPC under the DM's control as there's no longer a player character. Again, a DM can handle that differently if they prefer, and as I say you won't find many DM's who aren't happy for players to run monsters where it makes sense to, e.g- their familiars, pets etc. because it's easier and more fun, but they're still technically the DM's to run if they wish.
Again in Dracarys/Inoraxis' case, him successfully lifting his curse for good has made him an NPC monster and I'm fine with that. I still RP as him when he features (because it's my creation, and the DM is happy with that as long as I don't go off script). There's also a possibility I can play as him later as the character I've switched to can also eventually get true polymorph, so could turn into Inoraxis' monster profile as a "summon" spell because we have monster stats for that (adult black dragon + the shadow dragon template, or maybe a custom CR20 profile). Going to be a while till we get there though (campaign's still only at 13th-level, and the character in question is multi-classed so it'll be 20th-level by the time they get the spell).
Feel free! The Draconic Sorcery sub-class is the one I used for Dracarys Noir. 😉
Apologies this has turned into a giant wall of text, see what I mean about me writing too much? 😂
TL;DR version is "the points I've raised about the spell are for how it works in the rules as written, but you can (and should) discuss with your DM how you'd like spells to work for you as you get close to gaining access to them if you have specific story goals in mind".
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.