It's the only caveat in the spell. It specifically states the spell becomes permanent and lasts until it's dispelled. True rez, comes back as the polymorphed form. Drop to 0, it dies. Anti magic field, suppresses magic but does not dispel it so therefore it does nothing.
Antimagic field applies to permanent spells, and has the same effect as it does on any other spell -- the spell's effects are suppressed.
"Lasts until dispelled" is not some special unique duration that only applies to True Polymorph. It's just a standard permanent duration. Also, a duration of Until Dispelled does not prevent the spell being ended in another way; looking at other examples:
Arcane Lock: no special dispel conditions, but explicitly can be suppressed.
Sequester: ends if target takes damage, or under a condition specified by the caster.
Simulacrum: ends if reduced to 0 hp, or the caster recasts the spell.
As for the Sage Advice: an unfortunate problem with 5e is that it does not seem to have been given a proper review by a technical writer. If it's not suppressed by Antimagic Field it should not be classed as permanent until dispelled.
It's the only caveat in the spell. It specifically states the spell becomes permanent and lasts until it's dispelled. True rez, comes back as the polymorphed form. Drop to 0, it dies. Anti magic field, suppresses magic but does not dispel it so therefore it does nothing.
Antimagic field applies to permanent spells, and has the same effect as it does on any other spell -- the spell's effects are suppressed.
"Lasts until dispelled" is not some special unique duration that only applies to True Polymorph. It's just a standard permanent duration. Also, a duration of Until Dispelled does not prevent the spell being ended in another way; looking at other examples:
Arcane Lock: no special dispel conditions, but explicitly can be suppressed.
Sequester: ends if target takes damage, or under a condition specified by the caster.
Simulacrum: ends if reduced to 0 hp, or the caster recasts the spell.
As for the Sage Advice: an unfortunate problem with 5e is that it does not seem to have been given a proper review by a technical writer. If it's not suppressed by Antimagic Field it should not be classed as permanent until dispelled.
All the spells you listed have an active magic component that can be suppressed. True Poly is not like those in that is specifically says permanent. Same as if someone heals you with magic to bring you back to consciousness, an anti magic field won't knock you back out because magic healed you. The only out after the hour in true poly is dispel, period.
Same with summoned creatures where the duration is no longer active, an elemental that is summoned for an hour will be suppressed by an anti-magic field but undead or a familiar will not because their duration is no longer active.
In the case of true polymorph it would be suppressed during the hour of concentration maybe, but not after that hour was up and the only way to end true polymorph becomes dispel.
Don't have time to summarise the thread, but y'all need to consider how magic works in Your world and judge based on that. The way the bulk of you are interpreting Dispel as the only way to end it (as written) is that when Dispel is cast on a true poly target, Its not so much ending the spell, but more like polymorphing the target back.
Yes, it is "ending the spell", but practically that's not how it's working. Despite being RAW.
My query, to those stating that any nonlethal damage can end True Polymorph (since being reduced to zero hit points is in no way 'dying' in 5e).
Why does this make the spell better?
The only argument I can see for pushing this narrative and attempting to force it on other players is the belief that True Polymorph is bullshit and should be easy to end, even after its effects have become ongoing. Any nasty critter transformed into a llama just needs to bang its head against a rock once or twice and it's free. Turn your friend into a big, powerful critter? Bad guys just need to knock that friend on the head once or twice and he's back to being Steve the Squishy Sorcerer. Turn a giant dragon into a commemorative spoon? The moment that spoon hits a hot soup bowl, or gets slightly bent, it's considered 'damaged', loses its one hit point, and turns back into a dragon in your mouth.
If your goal is to jimmyjohn the spell such that any situation the DM desires can end it whenever the DM likes, why not simply ban it from your table rather than allow players to believe they've gained access to a splendid tool they can use to accomplish the sort of Awesome Things you've put years of your life into an epic-level campaign to do? Just tell your players outright that True Polymorph is banned from your table right alongside Wish, and ninth-level spell slots are to be used for upcasting other spells rather than for ninth-level magic. Solves the problem neatly ahead of time, ne?
All the spells you listed have an active magic component that can be suppressed. True Poly is not like those in that is specifically says permanent.
No it doesn't. It says "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled." Which is identical to the wording of the other spells.
My query, to those stating that any nonlethal damage can end True Polymorph (since being reduced to zero hit points is in no way 'dying' in 5e).
Why does this make the spell better?
What does that have to do with anything? We're discussing what the spell as written does, not what the spell should do. Nothing preventing you from houseruling it into an instant effect.
I suppose my intent is trying to understand why people do not want True Polymorph to do what True Polymorph is obviously intended to do - i.e. transform something, on a more-or-less permanent basis.
Yes, the spell can be dispelled. That means it's an ongoing effect, and a typical reading of the spell would posit that once the spell ends, so do its effects. Why that is being used as a bludgeon to insist that the spell does not function is strange to me, as is the naked hostility towards the spell. Okay, it's a potentially game-breakingly powerful spell. It's ninth level. A spellcaster at a minimum of 17th level has any number of ways to break the game beyond repair; any campaign that makes it that far continues basically because both players and DM have agreed to continue it, refraining from actions which would shatter the game. That's just how high-level D&D works, and why so few people ever get to play it. Not many can be totally aware of a myriad number of ways they personally could shatter the game, ostensibly in their favor, and then simply decide not to.
True polymorph's duration is not until dispelled, it is up to 1 hour depending on concentration. And true polymorph does say it cannot be suppressed... as do both game designers, mike mearls and jeremy crawford... as do most who understand is the simplest of terms that the spell is permanent past the 1 hour concentration and can only be ended by dispel after that.
Both undead and familiars are created by spells that don't say they cannot be suppressed... never the less are not suppressed by anti-magic fields... and neither is any creature that has been true polymorphed and lasted past the 1 hour duration.
True polymorph's duration is not until dispelled, it is up to 1 hour depending on concentration.
If maintained for an hour, its duration changes to "Until Dispelled". There are multiple spells that are capable of changing their duration to Until Dispelled. Compare:
Wall of Stone: If you maintain your concentration on this spell for its whole duration, the wall becomes permanent and can't be dispelled.
True Polymorph: If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled.
Those are obviously different. You want them to behave the same way.
In your example wall of stone says it can't be dispelled.
And true polymorph is the spell we are currently debating on this thread. Plus in your example it says if you concentrate on this spell for the full duration (that is 1 hour), the spell lasts until dispelled.
After the 1 hour duration of true polymorph is up the caster no longer has to concentrate on the spell because it has essentially ended and the effect has become permanent... that is until it is dispelled.
After the 1 hour duration of true polymorph is up the caster no longer has to concentrate on the spell because it has essentially ended and the effect has become permanent... that is until it is dispelled.
The effect's duration has changed to "until dispelled", causing it to behave identically to any other spell that is until dispelled. Which means it's an ongoing magical effect that can be detected with detect magic and suppressed with antimagic field.
True polymorph's duration is not until dispelled, it is up to 1 hour depending on concentration. And true polymorph does say it cannot be suppressed... as do both game designers, mike mearls and jeremy crawford... as do most who understand is the simplest of terms that the spell is permanent past the 1 hour concentration and can only be ended by dispel after that.
Both undead and familiars are created by spells that don't say they cannot be suppressed... never the less are not suppressed by anti-magic fields... and neither is any creature that has been true polymorphed and lasted past the 1 hour duration.
1) No spell specifically says that it can be suppressed. Does that mean all spells are immune to anti magic field?
2) Evidence regarding Mike and Jeremy? I can find no such reference on a quick google search.
3) Antimagic field DOES NOT END SPELLS. It only suppresses the effects. The spells are actually still running and as soon as the spell effect is no longer in the field, the spell's effect returns.
4) Undead have no spell to suppress. Familiars are conjured, and as such Antimagic Field specifically mentions such creatures are temporarily unsummoned. If Familiars are not unsummoned while in the field, then that is breaking both spell descriptions involved.
1) Only spells that say the specific way they can be ended. Lasts until dispelled means exactly that.
2) Just because you couldn’t find it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Look through the post though and you’ll see links I posted where they clear it up, no need to google.
3) You are correct, except in this instance anti magic field will not have an effect, per the spell and designers.
4) Correct again. Notice how it also doesn’t say anything about True Polymorph though. Not that it should list how it effects every spell as that would be insane, but it’s quite clear how this spell works.
Anyone using the videos to claim that the game designers say true polymorph cannot be suppressed by an anti-magic field should watch them again. Maybe I missed it, but at no point did I hear them they say that. If I missed it, give me a time stamp or something not just a 40 min video. There was some talk about multiple castings of true polymorph, but clearly true polymorph is an ongoing magical effect and so is affected by anti-magic field.
I'm not as sure where I sit with respect to a true polymorphed creature reverting at 0 hp. I may agree that they don't revert by RAW, but I don't think that's RAI. I watched the videos, and JC never weighed in on that point. Again, if I missed it, please provide a timestamp.
In the video Jeremy Crawford mentions that it can only be dispelled after the hour of concentration is over.
If you cast true polymorph on a creature that has been true polymorphed it doesn't get suppressed, the new casting takes effect and changes the target... that's what the spell does. If the 2nd casting is not maintained for the hour then it reverts back to the form it had in the 1st casting, if that one is permanent.
And a familiar doesn't wink out in an anti-magic field because it's duration is instantaneous and the spell is no longer in effect once cast.
The '... until dispelled' is a very different wording than just using 'permanent'. In my mind, there are too many loopholes, if the transformation stays after death but can still be dispelled.
I see manly issues with the questions raised, what happens if you chop the carcass of the polymorphed creature apart, use its parts for making tools, armour, weapons, that are carried wherever, if the dead creature gets eaten and what happens with what part if any of these parts gets dispelled. Revert all parts all over the multiverse? Only the one part that is dispelled? What with creatures having eaten parts of the polymorphed creature? Does the spell persist in that carnivore? Can it be dispelled there, because if you transform a giant into a rat and eat it then, and it gets dispelled, you will probably die because of the expanding mass of flesh, that reforms within your body.
He also states quite emphatically and without adding anything that after the hour is up it is permanent until dispelled.
He also addresses why they changed the wording from permanent to until dispelled... it was because some people had questions as to what permanent meant in this instance.
If you cast true polymorph on a creature and change it into another creature and concentrate for the hour then it can only be dispelled... if this happens and the creature dies it is just a corpse and no longer a creature... dispelling now will have no effect as it is no longer a creature but an object (dead body). There in no reverting back and affecting those who may have eaten some of the body.
If you cast true polymorph on a creature and change it into another creature and concentrate for the hour then it can only be dispelled... if this happens and the creature dies it is just a corpse and no longer a creature... dispelling now will have no effect as it is no longer a creature but an object (dead body). There in no reverting back and affecting those who may have eaten some of the body.
Why? The spell lasts until dispelled. If death does not end the spell, even in death the spell should stay and be dispellable. There is no indication, that death makes the spell un-dispellable.
So chose one, either it ends with death or it does not end, and you can dispell it later. Your take is another interpretation that is even more complicated than this whole discussion.
If you cast true polymorph on a creature and change it into another creature and concentrate for the hour then it can only be dispelled... if this happens and the creature dies it is just a corpse and no longer a creature... dispelling now will have no effect as it is no longer a creature but an object (dead body). There in no reverting back and affecting those who may have eaten some of the body.
Why? The spell lasts until dispelled. If death does not end the spell, even in death the spell should stay and be dispellable. There is no indication, that death makes the spell un-dispellable.
So chose one, either it ends with death or it does not end, and you can dispell it later. Your take is another interpretation that is even more complicated than this whole discussion.
A dead creature is no longer a creature. When they die, the spell would end, but since they're no longer the creature they were turned into, they would not revert.
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Antimagic field applies to permanent spells, and has the same effect as it does on any other spell -- the spell's effects are suppressed.
"Lasts until dispelled" is not some special unique duration that only applies to True Polymorph. It's just a standard permanent duration. Also, a duration of Until Dispelled does not prevent the spell being ended in another way; looking at other examples:
As for the Sage Advice: an unfortunate problem with 5e is that it does not seem to have been given a proper review by a technical writer. If it's not suppressed by Antimagic Field it should not be classed as permanent until dispelled.
All the spells you listed have an active magic component that can be suppressed. True Poly is not like those in that is specifically says permanent. Same as if someone heals you with magic to bring you back to consciousness, an anti magic field won't knock you back out because magic healed you. The only out after the hour in true poly is dispel, period.
Same with summoned creatures where the duration is no longer active, an elemental that is summoned for an hour will be suppressed by an anti-magic field but undead or a familiar will not because their duration is no longer active.
In the case of true polymorph it would be suppressed during the hour of concentration maybe, but not after that hour was up and the only way to end true polymorph becomes dispel.
Don't have time to summarise the thread, but y'all need to consider how magic works in Your world and judge based on that. The way the bulk of you are interpreting Dispel as the only way to end it (as written) is that when Dispel is cast on a true poly target, Its not so much ending the spell, but more like polymorphing the target back.
Yes, it is "ending the spell", but practically that's not how it's working. Despite being RAW.
This is an inconsistency.
My query, to those stating that any nonlethal damage can end True Polymorph (since being reduced to zero hit points is in no way 'dying' in 5e).
Why does this make the spell better?
The only argument I can see for pushing this narrative and attempting to force it on other players is the belief that True Polymorph is bullshit and should be easy to end, even after its effects have become ongoing. Any nasty critter transformed into a llama just needs to bang its head against a rock once or twice and it's free. Turn your friend into a big, powerful critter? Bad guys just need to knock that friend on the head once or twice and he's back to being Steve the Squishy Sorcerer. Turn a giant dragon into a commemorative spoon? The moment that spoon hits a hot soup bowl, or gets slightly bent, it's considered 'damaged', loses its one hit point, and turns back into a dragon in your mouth.
If your goal is to jimmyjohn the spell such that any situation the DM desires can end it whenever the DM likes, why not simply ban it from your table rather than allow players to believe they've gained access to a splendid tool they can use to accomplish the sort of Awesome Things you've put years of your life into an epic-level campaign to do? Just tell your players outright that True Polymorph is banned from your table right alongside Wish, and ninth-level spell slots are to be used for upcasting other spells rather than for ninth-level magic. Solves the problem neatly ahead of time, ne?
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No it doesn't. It says "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled." Which is identical to the wording of the other spells.
What does that have to do with anything? We're discussing what the spell as written does, not what the spell should do. Nothing preventing you from houseruling it into an instant effect.
I suppose my intent is trying to understand why people do not want True Polymorph to do what True Polymorph is obviously intended to do - i.e. transform something, on a more-or-less permanent basis.
Yes, the spell can be dispelled. That means it's an ongoing effect, and a typical reading of the spell would posit that once the spell ends, so do its effects. Why that is being used as a bludgeon to insist that the spell does not function is strange to me, as is the naked hostility towards the spell. Okay, it's a potentially game-breakingly powerful spell. It's ninth level. A spellcaster at a minimum of 17th level has any number of ways to break the game beyond repair; any campaign that makes it that far continues basically because both players and DM have agreed to continue it, refraining from actions which would shatter the game. That's just how high-level D&D works, and why so few people ever get to play it. Not many can be totally aware of a myriad number of ways they personally could shatter the game, ostensibly in their favor, and then simply decide not to.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
True polymorph's duration is not until dispelled, it is up to 1 hour depending on concentration. And true polymorph does say it cannot be suppressed... as do both game designers, mike mearls and jeremy crawford... as do most who understand is the simplest of terms that the spell is permanent past the 1 hour concentration and can only be ended by dispel after that.
Both undead and familiars are created by spells that don't say they cannot be suppressed... never the less are not suppressed by anti-magic fields... and neither is any creature that has been true polymorphed and lasted past the 1 hour duration.
If maintained for an hour, its duration changes to "Until Dispelled". There are multiple spells that are capable of changing their duration to Until Dispelled. Compare:
Those are obviously different. You want them to behave the same way.
In your example wall of stone says it can't be dispelled.
And true polymorph is the spell we are currently debating on this thread. Plus in your example it says if you concentrate on this spell for the full duration (that is 1 hour), the spell lasts until dispelled.
After the 1 hour duration of true polymorph is up the caster no longer has to concentrate on the spell because it has essentially ended and the effect has become permanent... that is until it is dispelled.
The effect's duration has changed to "until dispelled", causing it to behave identically to any other spell that is until dispelled. Which means it's an ongoing magical effect that can be detected with detect magic and suppressed with antimagic field.
1) Only spells that say the specific way they can be ended. Lasts until dispelled means exactly that.
2) Just because you couldn’t find it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Look through the post though and you’ll see links I posted where they clear it up, no need to google.
3) You are correct, except in this instance anti magic field will not have an effect, per the spell and designers.
4) Correct again. Notice how it also doesn’t say anything about True Polymorph though. Not that it should list how it effects every spell as that would be insane, but it’s quite clear how this spell works.
Anyone using the videos to claim that the game designers say true polymorph cannot be suppressed by an anti-magic field should watch them again. Maybe I missed it, but at no point did I hear them they say that. If I missed it, give me a time stamp or something not just a 40 min video. There was some talk about multiple castings of true polymorph, but clearly true polymorph is an ongoing magical effect and so is affected by anti-magic field.
I'm not as sure where I sit with respect to a true polymorphed creature reverting at 0 hp. I may agree that they don't revert by RAW, but I don't think that's RAI. I watched the videos, and JC never weighed in on that point. Again, if I missed it, please provide a timestamp.
In the video Jeremy Crawford mentions that it can only be dispelled after the hour of concentration is over.
If you cast true polymorph on a creature that has been true polymorphed it doesn't get suppressed, the new casting takes effect and changes the target... that's what the spell does. If the 2nd casting is not maintained for the hour then it reverts back to the form it had in the 1st casting, if that one is permanent.
And a familiar doesn't wink out in an anti-magic field because it's duration is instantaneous and the spell is no longer in effect once cast.
I may be wrong in regards to the familiar, it may wink out.
Although Jeremy Crawford did say in a sage advice:
An effect created by a spell that's instantaneous isn't susceptible to antimagic areas or being dispelled.
So that would give the familiar a special exemption... and make me right after all.
I am with Kotath on this one.
The '... until dispelled' is a very different wording than just using 'permanent'. In my mind, there are too many loopholes, if the transformation stays after death but can still be dispelled.
I see manly issues with the questions raised, what happens if you chop the carcass of the polymorphed creature apart, use its parts for making tools, armour, weapons, that are carried wherever, if the dead creature gets eaten and what happens with what part if any of these parts gets dispelled. Revert all parts all over the multiverse? Only the one part that is dispelled? What with creatures having eaten parts of the polymorphed creature? Does the spell persist in that carnivore? Can it be dispelled there, because if you transform a giant into a rat and eat it then, and it gets dispelled, you will probably die because of the expanding mass of flesh, that reforms within your body.
He also states quite emphatically and without adding anything that after the hour is up it is permanent until dispelled.
He also addresses why they changed the wording from permanent to until dispelled... it was because some people had questions as to what permanent meant in this instance.
If you cast true polymorph on a creature and change it into another creature and concentrate for the hour then it can only be dispelled... if this happens and the creature dies it is just a corpse and no longer a creature... dispelling now will have no effect as it is no longer a creature but an object (dead body). There in no reverting back and affecting those who may have eaten some of the body.
Why? The spell lasts until dispelled. If death does not end the spell, even in death the spell should stay and be dispellable. There is no indication, that death makes the spell un-dispellable.
So chose one, either it ends with death or it does not end, and you can dispell it later. Your take is another interpretation that is even more complicated than this whole discussion.
A dead creature is no longer a creature. When they die, the spell would end, but since they're no longer the creature they were turned into, they would not revert.
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