As a DM does anyone have any advice that could help with something I'm trying to figure out???
Say something casts True Polymorph on itself to become something else, it waits the full hour so the change is permanent, now I'm worried about Dispel Magic being used in this situation, the thing wants to remain in its new Form, what would be something I could do that would keep the creature from reverting back to its original form??? I know as a DM I could simply say Dispel doesn't work but I have some players who are sticklers for the wording of a spell lol
You could have a Wish spell or cleric Divine Intervention render its new duration Instantaneous rather than Until Dispelled, like Reincarnate.
As a DM does anyone have any advice that could help with something I'm trying to figure out???
Say something casts True Polymorph on itself to become something else, it waits the full hour so the change is permanent, now I'm worried about Dispel Magic being used in this situation, the thing wants to remain in its new Form, what would be something I could do that would keep the creature from reverting back to its original form??? I know as a DM I could simply say Dispel doesn't work but I have some players who are sticklers for the wording of a spell lol
One relatively inexpensive possibility is using Nystul's Magic Aura to make them appear as if they're not affected by True Polymorph, so that casual divination magic wouldn't reveal the truth.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
The Wish spell actually doesn't exist in my Campaign, would Channel Divinity allow it to remain permanent and not be affected by Dispel Magic???
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A DM of 3 years a Player of 4 I enjoy world building and have many Homebrew Campaigns and several One shots, I like to consider myself a pretty laid back DM as far as some I've played under, I'm fair and enjoy running games for my friends and strangers, I enjoy teaching and helping players, I don't hold back when it comes to my worlds and monsters.
The Wish spell actually doesn't exist in my Campaign, would Channel Divinity allow it to remain permanent and not be affected by Dispel Magic???
No (there is no Channel Divinity effect that does that). There's no official way of doing what you want, other than Wish (because it can do anything the DM lets it do), though you can always invent a special ritual that does whatever you want (there's no official way of turning into a lich either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just means it's outside the rules).
The Wish spell actually doesn't exist in my Campaign, would Channel Divinity allow it to remain permanent and not be affected by Dispel Magic???
No, I typoed in my original post, sorry. Channel Divinity can't do this - Divine Intervention can. Divine Intervention is a lot like Wish.
Divine Intervention notes "the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate", which implies it won't do anything outside the normal scope of spells (Wish only works because it has the ability to exceed the normal scope of what spells can do).
A DM of 3 years a Player of 4 I enjoy world building and have many Homebrew Campaigns and several One shots, I like to consider myself a pretty laid back DM as far as some I've played under, I'm fair and enjoy running games for my friends and strangers, I enjoy teaching and helping players, I don't hold back when it comes to my worlds and monsters.
Hold person has a requirement to target a humanoid, this humanoid is then labeled "the target" for the rest of the spell's text instead of "the humanoid". By "the target", the spell refers to the entity you targeted, this speech no longer takes into account the creature type of the target, it also does not have a clause to say the spell does not affect creatures of other types (like the latter text in the sleep spell).
If a humanoid paralyzed by this is turned into an owl bear, that person is still the same entity, the same "target" that the spell affects, and without any text to say otherwise, the spell would persist.
This also means if you somehow turned the big bad into a humanoid, then cast hold person and paralyze them. When the big bad turns back into whatever creature they were before, they are still paralyzed as they are still the same entity that was affected by the spell to begin with.
RAI, the spell isnt meant to work on non-humanoids, but RAW, it does not change when the affected creature changes type.
Now as for True Polymorph, the text says that after concentrating the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent, not "until its dispelled". I see it as an instantaneous effect at that point. Rather than an active spell you must maintain, the effect is instantly permanent, like casting call lightning, the spell is actively concentrated on, but the damage effect is instantaneous. If the caster drops concentration, that damage dealt stays. It's the same with True Polymorph, once the duration is completed, the effect changes to make the transformation permanent, conditions for ending it early should not apply as they applied to the initial duration.
I'm not going to make any judgment as to whether spending the whole hour of concentration removes the until HP hits 0 clause, but my copy of the player's handbook does say "until it's dispelled." I have the 10th printing from 2018, and it says exactly: "The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled."
The only time the word permanent comes up in the spell's description is in the object into creature section where it says, "If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it."
Antimagic Fields do not end the spell, but suppress the effects
It says it doesn't end the spell, so there is a chance that taking this to the letter would mean you CAN'T untransform in the field
It suppresses the effect of the spell. The effect of the spell is the subject being transformed, so the transformation effect is suspended. If there was an effect that was defined as occurring when the spell ended, that effect would not be triggered by an antimagic field (and might be prevented from occurring if the spell ended in an antimagic field), but untransforming isn't an effect, it's the removal of an effect.
Well... it's been a couple months since anyone replied to this, and I haven't read every reply, but;
JC has stated that a true polymorphed creature would revert back to it's original form if it's current form is reduced to 0HP. This is consistent with the wording that it lasts until dispelled, and being reduced to 0HP is listed as a condition for dispellment.
Well... it's been a couple months since anyone replied to this, and I haven't read every reply, but;
JC has stated that a true polymorphed creature would revert back to it's original form if it's current form is reduced to 0HP. This is consistent with the wording that it lasts until dispelled, and being reduced to 0HP is listed as a condition for dispellment.
I hope that clears it up for everyone.
Not to re-open this post but we have sage advice going both ways with is talked about in the post. Its really up to the DM interpretation on this one.
The original wording was "becomes permanent." The "until dispelled" was added later. The initial explanation was to try and make it clear that there are ways to "fix" it; it's not immutable Shape or something.
The main example where i think both the change in wording and that either wording overrides both the duration and the "drops to 0 hit points" language is if your BBEG has a garden of statues that they made out of villagers using True Polymorph.
1) "Permanent" would mean that's irreversible. "Until Dispelled" would mean you could use another spell (Remove Curse, Greater Restoration, so on) to turn the villagers back. That's why it says "Until Dispelled." Antimagic Field wouldn't turn them back, but they wouldn't glow with a hint of transmutation magic.
2) The "0 hit points" thing is gone, otherwise your Barbarian is in the garden with a warhammer "casting dispell magic" by smashing the statues and everyone is like "yay! We're free!!" Smash the statue and you have piles of rubble. Dispell it after he smashes the statues, and up to you whether the pile of dust turns human or turns... squick.
As for the wording:
"The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled." That's the last two sentences of the first paragraph. "The transformation lasts...." and "If you concetrate... the transformation lasts..." There's no ambiguity there; the second sentence completely modifies the first.
"This spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points. An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isn’t affected by this spell." This is the first sentence of the second paragraph. It does not modify anything from the previous sentence. It tells you you cannot polymorph a Ancient Gold Dragon into a house cat, and you cannot murder someone and then change their body into an end table to hide the crime.
Mearls got this right, unless you as the DM have a reason to change it, ie- you think it's funny for Gaston to remove the curse in Beauty & the Beast by smashing all of Beast's furniture and stabbing Beast in the face).
It tells you you cannot polymorph a Ancient Gold Dragon into a house cat, and you cannot murder someone and then change their body into an end table to hide the crime.
Actually, you can. A dead body is not a creature, and is thus a valid target. It's only a creature that's at 0 hp but still alive that can't be targeted.
I take all sage advice with a heap of salt - especially as that link also says that Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford disagree on that point.
Like I said - the placement of that sentence saying it can't effect a 0hp creature is referring to the initial casting. You can't cast it on a 0hp creature or on an unwilling creature who succeeded on their save. Once it is cast and lasted the hour - it's permanent until dispelled.
Then let's apply the same logic to Hold Person. Hold Person now has a clause saying "If you maintain concentration for the full minute, it lasts until dispelled." but it also says that if they take damage, they can make a save to end the spell.
By your reading, that means that with a 2nd level spell slot, and 1 minute... congratulations, you permanently paralyzed Tiamat or the Tarrasque or <insert high CR monster here> no matter how often you deal them damage and how often they make their save. Does that make *any* sense to you?
you think you have him in a bind but here is your answer:
hypothetical writing examples listed:
No.1 "The spell lasts until the duration ends, you lose concentration, or the target takes damage. If you concentrate on the spell for the full minute the spell has no duration and lasts until dispelled, you lose concentration, or the target takes damage"
No.2 "The spell lasts until the duration ends, you lose concentration, or the target takes damage. If you concentrate on the spell for the full minute, the spell lasts until dispelled."
To me, it is very simple, but allow me to break it down for you
True polymorph becomes a new spell with a new duration, new effects, and new ways of ending it. Here are the two "different" spells it is
first is a concentration spell that lasts one hour that you can end on yourself at any moment by ending concentration, losing concentration, or being reduced to 0 hitpoints
second is a spell that has no duration and lasts until dispelled. This is how it is written, hence why it writes in such a way that the two different ways to end the two "different" spells in CHRONOLOGICAL order.
Also... your argument using "hold monster" was unfalsifiable, because you rewrote an entire 2nd-level spell, added a feature to it that only exists in a 9th-level spell, and said that this would make it super powerful and therefore ridiculous why it is only a 2nd level spell...
no, this is wrong. you have taken the name of a whole different spell and written your own, much more powerful, spell. Bad example
So, there is the thing about unfalsifiable arguments, they are statements that do not follow a train of logic and are just... bogus
and here is the direct quote for those who don't wanna click the link. "The text of the spell says it has no effect on a creature with 0 hit points. That statement is made after the bit about lasting until dispelled. At 0 hit points? The transformation ends." - Jeremy Crawford
I was just REALLY trying to avoid having to turn to Sage Advice and go by what is actually written in the spell, but y'all forced my hand, lol.
No you where not "REALLY trying to avoid" you had it in your pocket at the ready, or just randomly looked it up, considering well love "official" was arguing with another "official" on the matter meaning it is not a closed case, you just took it out of context.
And True Polymorph explicitly states it has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature that has 0 HP. This is a totally separate clause from the End Spell clauses.
And if it's criteria are met, as in "I can no longer affect this creature, it is at 0 HP," the only follow up logically is "My effect must end, it is no longer a valid target because it is at 0 HP."
If the creature has zero hp it has no effect, just like it has no effect on shapechangers, this is for casting considering it is right next to "An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isn’t affected by this spell." it has moved past the point of what does cancel the spell, and is now talking about targetting, hence the separate paragraph.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You could have a Wish spell or cleric Divine Intervention render its new duration Instantaneous rather than Until Dispelled, like Reincarnate.
One relatively inexpensive possibility is using Nystul's Magic Aura to make them appear as if they're not affected by True Polymorph, so that casual divination magic wouldn't reveal the truth.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
The Wish spell actually doesn't exist in my Campaign, would Channel Divinity allow it to remain permanent and not be affected by Dispel Magic???
A DM of 3 years a Player of 4 I enjoy world building and have many Homebrew Campaigns and several One shots, I like to consider myself a pretty laid back DM as far as some I've played under, I'm fair and enjoy running games for my friends and strangers, I enjoy teaching and helping players, I don't hold back when it comes to my worlds and monsters.
No (there is no Channel Divinity effect that does that). There's no official way of doing what you want, other than Wish (because it can do anything the DM lets it do), though you can always invent a special ritual that does whatever you want (there's no official way of turning into a lich either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just means it's outside the rules).
No, I typoed in my original post, sorry. Channel Divinity can't do this - Divine Intervention can. Divine Intervention is a lot like Wish.
Divine Intervention notes "the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate", which implies it won't do anything outside the normal scope of spells (Wish only works because it has the ability to exceed the normal scope of what spells can do).
Ahh I hadn't thought of that, thanks.
A DM of 3 years a Player of 4 I enjoy world building and have many Homebrew Campaigns and several One shots, I like to consider myself a pretty laid back DM as far as some I've played under, I'm fair and enjoy running games for my friends and strangers, I enjoy teaching and helping players, I don't hold back when it comes to my worlds and monsters.
Hold person has a requirement to target a humanoid, this humanoid is then labeled "the target" for the rest of the spell's text instead of "the humanoid". By "the target", the spell refers to the entity you targeted, this speech no longer takes into account the creature type of the target, it also does not have a clause to say the spell does not affect creatures of other types (like the latter text in the sleep spell).
If a humanoid paralyzed by this is turned into an owl bear, that person is still the same entity, the same "target" that the spell affects, and without any text to say otherwise, the spell would persist.
This also means if you somehow turned the big bad into a humanoid, then cast hold person and paralyze them. When the big bad turns back into whatever creature they were before, they are still paralyzed as they are still the same entity that was affected by the spell to begin with.
RAI, the spell isnt meant to work on non-humanoids, but RAW, it does not change when the affected creature changes type.
Now as for True Polymorph, the text says that after concentrating the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent, not "until its dispelled". I see it as an instantaneous effect at that point. Rather than an active spell you must maintain, the effect is instantly permanent, like casting call lightning, the spell is actively concentrated on, but the damage effect is instantaneous. If the caster drops concentration, that damage dealt stays. It's the same with True Polymorph, once the duration is completed, the effect changes to make the transformation permanent, conditions for ending it early should not apply as they applied to the initial duration.
I'm not going to make any judgment as to whether spending the whole hour of concentration removes the until HP hits 0 clause, but my copy of the player's handbook does say "until it's dispelled." I have the 10th printing from 2018, and it says exactly: "The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled."
The only time the word permanent comes up in the spell's description is in the object into creature section where it says, "If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it."
Wait, does that mean that if you always carry an antimagic field on you, you can NEVER detransform from True Polymorph
The spell is suspended (detransforming you) upon entering an antimagic field, though while suspended it may not be possible to dispel.
It says it doesn't end the spell, so there is a chance that taking this to the letter would mean you CAN'T untransform in the field
(But let's be honest, it's gonna detransform you due to the DM saying so)
It suppresses the effect of the spell. The effect of the spell is the subject being transformed, so the transformation effect is suspended. If there was an effect that was defined as occurring when the spell ended, that effect would not be triggered by an antimagic field (and might be prevented from occurring if the spell ended in an antimagic field), but untransforming isn't an effect, it's the removal of an effect.
Well... it's been a couple months since anyone replied to this, and I haven't read every reply, but;
JC has stated that a true polymorphed creature would revert back to it's original form if it's current form is reduced to 0HP. This is consistent with the wording that it lasts until dispelled, and being reduced to 0HP is listed as a condition for dispellment.
I hope that clears it up for everyone.
Not to re-open this post but we have sage advice going both ways with is talked about in the post. Its really up to the DM interpretation on this one.
A couple things (just because):
The original wording was "becomes permanent." The "until dispelled" was added later. The initial explanation was to try and make it clear that there are ways to "fix" it; it's not immutable Shape or something.
The main example where i think both the change in wording and that either wording overrides both the duration and the "drops to 0 hit points" language is if your BBEG has a garden of statues that they made out of villagers using True Polymorph.
1) "Permanent" would mean that's irreversible. "Until Dispelled" would mean you could use another spell (Remove Curse, Greater Restoration, so on) to turn the villagers back. That's why it says "Until Dispelled." Antimagic Field wouldn't turn them back, but they wouldn't glow with a hint of transmutation magic.
2) The "0 hit points" thing is gone, otherwise your Barbarian is in the garden with a warhammer "casting dispell magic" by smashing the statues and everyone is like "yay! We're free!!" Smash the statue and you have piles of rubble. Dispell it after he smashes the statues, and up to you whether the pile of dust turns human or turns... squick.
As for the wording:
"The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled." That's the last two sentences of the first paragraph. "The transformation lasts...." and "If you concetrate... the transformation lasts..." There's no ambiguity there; the second sentence completely modifies the first.
"This spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points. An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isn’t affected by this spell."
This is the first sentence of the second paragraph. It does not modify anything from the previous sentence. It tells you you cannot polymorph a Ancient Gold Dragon into a house cat, and you cannot murder someone and then change their body into an end table to hide the crime.
Mearls got this right, unless you as the DM have a reason to change it, ie- you think it's funny for Gaston to remove the curse in Beauty & the Beast by smashing all of Beast's furniture and stabbing Beast in the face).
Actually, you can. A dead body is not a creature, and is thus a valid target. It's only a creature that's at 0 hp but still alive that can't be targeted.
you think you have him in a bind but here is your answer:
hypothetical writing examples listed:
No.1 "The spell lasts until the duration ends, you lose concentration, or the target takes damage. If you concentrate on the spell for the full minute the spell has no duration and lasts until dispelled, you lose concentration, or the target takes damage"
No.2 "The spell lasts until the duration ends, you lose concentration, or the target takes damage. If you concentrate on the spell for the full minute, the spell lasts until dispelled."
To me, it is very simple, but allow me to break it down for you
True polymorph becomes a new spell with a new duration, new effects, and new ways of ending it. Here are the two "different" spells it is
first is a concentration spell that lasts one hour that you can end on yourself at any moment by ending concentration, losing concentration, or being reduced to 0 hitpoints
second is a spell that has no duration and lasts until dispelled. This is how it is written, hence why it writes in such a way that the two different ways to end the two "different" spells in CHRONOLOGICAL order.
Also... your argument using "hold monster" was unfalsifiable, because you rewrote an entire 2nd-level spell, added a feature to it that only exists in a 9th-level spell, and said that this would make it super powerful and therefore ridiculous why it is only a 2nd level spell...
no, this is wrong. you have taken the name of a whole different spell and written your own, much more powerful, spell. Bad example
So, there is the thing about unfalsifiable arguments, they are statements that do not follow a train of logic and are just... bogus
No you where not "REALLY trying to avoid" you had it in your pocket at the ready, or just randomly looked it up, considering well love "official" was arguing with another "official" on the matter meaning it is not a closed case, you just took it out of context.
If the creature has zero hp it has no effect, just like it has no effect on shapechangers, this is for casting considering it is right next to "An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isn’t affected by this spell." it has moved past the point of what does cancel the spell, and is now talking about targetting, hence the separate paragraph.