Yes, I never claimed I didn't. That was to show that there are plenty of resources, LoH just being one of them, that can be spent over overspent without the wanted results being achieved. Do you deny this is the case?
There's things that can be wasted. But other ressources that aren't expanded to restore or bring back stuff are not the same as Lay on Hands.
Never said they were. I said that many (if not all) resources can be wasted. There is nothing that says LoH should be any different.
I'll think some more about your resource question while eating some rations and goodberries while washing them down with a bottle of fine wine.
Just be careful when operating heavy machinery afterwards. ;)
Ki points are similarly used point by point.
For me, the keywords of the LoH's text are "from" and "remaining".
Can you point me to the rule in the PHB that says that the LoH feature should be treated like a spell?
I never claimed that "the LoH feature should be treated like a spell". I've pointed out the fact that most if not all resources in D&D can be wasted and that there is nothing that says that LoH (nor Ki points for that matter) are any different.
Ki points Sorcery points Arcane ward's reducing HP buffer Armour of Agythys' reducing HP buffer
Both Ki points and Sorcery points can absolutely be wasted. For example, using Ki points for a stunning strike that fails or using twinned spell on a spell that misses. Arcane Ward and AoA are different since the player doesn't decide how many resources to spend.
Both Ki points and Sorcery points can absolutely be wasted. For example, using Ki points for a stunning strike that fails or using twinned spell on a spell that misses. Arcane Ward and AoA are different since the player doesn't decide how many resources to spend.
How can you waste a Ki point on Stunning Strike? You can't. Spending 1 Ki point will always attempt a Stunning Strike. If you don't attempt a Stunning Strike, you don't expend 1 ki point to do so since it's what they're used for.
Similarly, you draw from the pool of healing to restore hit points. If you don't restore hit points, you don't expend healing points from the pool to do so since it's what they're used for.
Stunning Strike: When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike.
Both Ki points and Sorcery points can absolutely be wasted. For example, using Ki points for a stunning strike that fails or using twinned spell on a spell that misses. Arcane Ward and AoA are different since the player doesn't decide how many resources to spend.
How can you waste a Ki point on Stunning Strike? You can't. Spending 1 Ki point will always attempt a Stunning Strike. If you don't attempt a Stunning Strike, you don't expend 1 ki point to do so since it's what they're used for.
So, honest question. Are you confused by what I write? Because I literally just explained how you can waste Ki points. Just because you attempt a Stunning strike doesn't mean that you automatically succeed, thus the Ki point is wasted if the stunning strike fails. You do understand this, don't you? In the same way, if you say "I'm going to use Lay on Hands for 15 points" when all you needed was 11 points then, using the same logic, those extra 4 points are wasted. This is how the game works. You spend a resource at the appropriate time to attempt to get the desired results. Sometime it works, sometimes it doesn't. if it doesn't the resource is wasted. There are also such things as spending too much resources, as have previously been explained.
Similarly, you draw from the pool of healing to restore hit points. If you don't restore hit points, you don't expend healing points from the pool to do so since it's what they're used for.
A false analogy. I've already pointed out how a Ki point can go to waste so I'll not repeat that. But unless you assume that Paladins always use as much of their Lay on Hands HP pool as is possible to heal the target then, logically as per how the game functions, you can overspend this resource, just as you canoverspend pretty much every other resource.
You shifted now discussing on the Stunning Strike failure which is not Ki Points waste, which is not the same thing. Lay on Hands doesn't have a success or failure mechanic. It restores HP or it doesn't, drawing from a pool of point to do so because restore = bring back.
Your blessed touch can heal wounds. You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a long rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of hit points equal to your paladin level × 5.
As an action, you can touch a creature and draw power from the pool to restore a number of hit points to that creature, up to the maximum amountremaining in your pool.
Nothing is said about healing going to waste only that some power can be drawn from the pool while other power can remain.
The very fact that the enemy made a save to avoid being stunned is the proof that there was an attempt to stun it and therefore that no Ki Point was wasted. It's not a strawman argument since the subject of the argument was addressed.
It all hinges on what restore means is what i and others have been advocating and voting (92% for new petrol pump, so vast majority). If others don't and prefer to let Paladin waste healing points that don't restore anything it's up to them.
How can you waste a Ki point on Stunning Strike? You can't. Spending 1 Ki point will always attempt a Stunning Strike. If you don't attempt a Stunning Strike, you don't expend 1 ki point to do so since it's what they're used for.
An example that is very similar to the LoH discussion is choosing to spend the Ki-point when attacking a creature that is immune to being Stunned.
How can you waste a Ki point on Stunning Strike? You can't. Spending 1 Ki point will always attempt a Stunning Strike. If you don't attempt a Stunning Strike, you don't expend 1 ki point to do so since it's what they're used for.
An example that is very similar to the LoH discussion is choosing to spend the Ki-point when attacking a creature that is immune to being Stunned.
Basically: You spend a Ki point to stunning strike. You spent one and the target is immune to stunning? You just wasted a Ki point.
The very fact that the enemy made a save to avoid being stunned is the proof that there was an attempt to stun it and therefore that no Ki Point was wasted. It's not a strawman argument since the subject of the argument was addressed.
It all hinges on what restore means is what i and others have been advocating and voting (92% for new petrol pump, so vast majority). If others don't and prefer to let Paladin waste healing points that don't restore anything it's up to them.
I agree with that, but what if:
This guy, lets call him Bob, reads an argument for old fashioned petrol pump, and assumes that paladins aren't very good healers because of the old fashioned petrol pump(which less than 1 in 10 DMs use), and his character(Bob II, who is a life domain cleric) heals another character(Bob III, paladin), and then because they are next to each other, a dragon KOs them with his breath, there are no other healers, so the healers die of death saving throws and the entire campaign fails because the party coudn't heal and all of them were killed by the dragon.
OR what if I argued against the old fashioned petrol pump?
The fact that an immunity countered it means there was a stun attempt tried in the first place, which indicate the Ki Point wasn't wasted as it was used, even if unsuccessful. You spend a Ki Point to attempt to stun. Just like you spend healing point to restore HP. No attempt to stun, no Ki Point spent. No restored HP, no healing point spent. That's how i rule it.
Perhaps it should be established with the DM how Lay on Hands is pumping out ☺ Personally in all the 5E game i ran or played since 2013 as way back as early alpha playtesting, i never seen anyone question if Lay on Hands points could be wasted. As someone evoked earlier in the thread, perhaps it's due to how it's metagamed.
Your blessed touch can heal wounds. You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a long rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of hit points equal to your paladin level × 5.
As an action, you can touch a creature and draw power from the pool to restore a number of hit points to that creature, up to the maximum amountremaining in your pool.
Nothing is said about healing going to waste only that some power can be drawn from the pool while other power can remain.
But where does it say that you get the points back if you spend more than required? ...
Where does it say that you can draw more power from the pool than needed "to restore a number of hit points to that creature"?
You are making up rules that aren't there. There is no "points back" clause because what you're talking about isn't in the rules.
Never said they were. I said that many (if not all) resources can be wasted. There is nothing that says LoH should be any different.
Just be careful when operating heavy machinery afterwards. ;)
I never claimed that "the LoH feature should be treated like a spell". I've pointed out the fact that most if not all resources in D&D can be wasted and that there is nothing that says that LoH (nor Ki points for that matter) are any different.
Both Ki points and Sorcery points can absolutely be wasted. For example, using Ki points for a stunning strike that fails or using twinned spell on a spell that misses. Arcane Ward and AoA are different since the player doesn't decide how many resources to spend.
How can you waste a Ki point on Stunning Strike? You can't. Spending 1 Ki point will always attempt a Stunning Strike. If you don't attempt a Stunning Strike, you don't expend 1 ki point to do so since it's what they're used for.
Similarly, you draw from the pool of healing to restore hit points. If you don't restore hit points, you don't expend healing points from the pool to do so since it's what they're used for.
How can you waste a Ki point on Stunning Strike? You can't. Spending 1 Ki point will always attempt a Stunning Strike. If you don't attempt a Stunning Strike, you don't expend 1 ki point to do so since it's what they're used for.
So, honest question. Are you confused by what I write? Because I literally just explained how you can waste Ki points. Just because you attempt a Stunning strike doesn't mean that you automatically succeed, thus the Ki point is wasted if the stunning strike fails. You do understand this, don't you? In the same way, if you say "I'm going to use Lay on Hands for 15 points" when all you needed was 11 points then, using the same logic, those extra 4 points are wasted. This is how the game works. You spend a resource at the appropriate time to attempt to get the desired results. Sometime it works, sometimes it doesn't. if it doesn't the resource is wasted. There are also such things as spending too much resources, as have previously been explained.
A false analogy. I've already pointed out how a Ki point can go to waste so I'll not repeat that. But unless you assume that Paladins always use as much of their Lay on Hands HP pool as is possible to heal the target then, logically as per how the game functions, you can overspend this resource, just as you canoverspend pretty much every other resource.
You shifted now discussing on the Stunning Strike failure which is not Ki Points waste, which is not the same thing. Lay on Hands doesn't have a success or failure mechanic. It restores HP or it doesn't, drawing from a pool of point to do so because restore = bring back.
Lay on Hands
Your blessed touch can heal wounds. You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a long rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of hit points equal to your paladin level × 5.
As an action, you can touch a creature and draw power from the pool to restore a number of hit points to that creature, up to the maximum amount remaining in your pool.
Nothing is said about healing going to waste only that some power can be drawn from the pool while other power can remain.
The very fact that the enemy made a save to avoid being stunned is the proof that there was an attempt to stun it and therefore that no Ki Point was wasted. It's not a strawman argument since the subject of the argument was addressed.
It all hinges on what restore means is what i and others have been advocating and voting (92% for new petrol pump, so vast majority). If others don't and prefer to let Paladin waste healing points that don't restore anything it's up to them.
An example that is very similar to the LoH discussion is choosing to spend the Ki-point when attacking a creature that is immune to being Stunned.
Basically: You spend a Ki point to stunning strike. You spent one and the target is immune to stunning? You just wasted a Ki point.
I agree with that, but what if:
This guy, lets call him Bob, reads an argument for old fashioned petrol pump, and assumes that paladins aren't very good healers because of the old fashioned petrol pump(which less than 1 in 10 DMs use), and his character(Bob II, who is a life domain cleric) heals another character(Bob III, paladin), and then because they are next to each other, a dragon KOs them with his breath, there are no other healers, so the healers die of death saving throws and the entire campaign fails because the party coudn't heal and all of them were killed by the dragon.
OR what if I argued against the old fashioned petrol pump?
The fact that an immunity countered it means there was a stun attempt tried in the first place, which indicate the Ki Point wasn't wasted as it was used, even if unsuccessful. You spend a Ki Point to attempt to stun. Just like you spend healing point to restore HP. No attempt to stun, no Ki Point spent. No restored HP, no healing point spent. That's how i rule it.
Perhaps it should be established with the DM how Lay on Hands is pumping out ☺ Personally in all the 5E game i ran or played since 2013 as way back as early alpha playtesting, i never seen anyone question if Lay on Hands points could be wasted. As someone evoked earlier in the thread, perhaps it's due to how it's metagamed.
... or petrol. If the feat carried any real danger of a potential waste of power, I think it would have said so.
Where does it say that you can draw more power from the pool than needed "to restore a number of hit points to that creature"?
You are making up rules that aren't there. There is no "points back" clause because what you're talking about isn't in the rules.
So, seems I had switched off notifications for this thread some time ago and only just remembered I had posted it in the first place!
Thank you everyone for your input - it was very interesting to see the variety of opinions on the matter!
It's better than the alternative of:
"Okay so I'll spend a single point of LOH. Is that better?"
"No."
"Okay, so I'll spend a single point of LOH. Is that better?"
"No"
(Repeat until full)