The RAI for this spell seems so simple to me. You only get healed when you move into the space the spell effect is in or when you start your turn there, you don't get the heal by simply "passing through" the area. That means at lowest level, you heal whoever ends their move or starts their turn in the space for 1d6. One minute duration, 1d6 healing per turn, 10d6 total.
If you want to smoke Munchkin crack and Congo or all stack in a 5 ft area, I would say that is intentional rule abuse, not trying to follow RAW to the best of your ability.
The RAI for this spell seems so simple to me. You only get healed when you move into the space the spell effect is in or when you start your turn there, you don't get the heal by simply "passing through" the area. That means at lowest level, you heal whoever ends their move or starts their turn in the space for 1d6. One minute duration, 1d6 healing per turn, 10d6 total.
If you want to smoke Munchkin crack and Congo or all stack in a 5 ft area, I would say that is intentional rule abuse, not trying to follow RAW to the best of your ability.
That is neither the RAW or the RAI. As the spells says: Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit’s space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there...
You don't have to end your movement in the space, simply move through it; move into it for the first time (preventing you from moving through it multiple times) The "for the first time" strongly implies that you can keep moving, as you would be able to move out of it and back into it, but only get healed "the first time."
Many spells in 5e work this way, and none of them require you to stop moving.
The problem with the spell isn't what it does, or how it happens. The problem is that there are no hard limits imposed by the spell itself. All it needs is a line stating something like, "The spirit can heal a maximum of (whatever; preferably 1 or 2) number of creatures per round."
The point of this spell is to provide a recurring heal-over-time to a creature in combat. It's a monster of a spell that can still provide an insane amount of healing (for the cost) to a single target. Any more is just absurd.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I never really noticed it being able to be used THAT powerfully, but then again I don't think I've ever seen it used to its best potential now reading the RAW. Its a bit concerning if it can be as powerful for a target thats just passing through, and if it doesn't have a limit to the number of targets then yeah, some clarifications or update to the restrictions would be good.
Quick side question, the spell heals any creature that enters or starts it's turn in the space. If the party is going to try and cheese the spell during combat to heal a bunch.....what is to stop a monster or other enemy from moving into the space and staying there until removed? Like, it can be moved by the caster once a round, but that's about it.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Nothing. An enemy could absolutely do that, and a smart enemy - upon seeing this spirit healing people - might very well think to do so. Certainly a weakness of this spell.
This spell isn't really broken in combat. Sure, it COULD be abused, but doing so would take a lot of effort and frankly he pretty ridiculous. In combat it tends to do exactly what it's meant to - provide a bit of healing to one creature at the start of their turn. It costs a high level spell slot based on the amount of healing provided per turn (2nd level for 1d6) and concentration.
It's meant to allow a backline caster to heal a tank over time, taking up their concentration while they make ranged attacks from behind.
Out of combat is where the issue with this spell is. Being able to recover 35HP for every party member over the course of a minute for a 2nd level slot is definitely pretty nuts. But nothing a good DM can't work with, the only bad thing is how much this outshines other healer's out of combat healing abilities.
I read the first page of responses and the last page, so please forgive if this suggestion has been posted. What about requiring the caster to use their reaction to do the healing? The spell specifically states that the caster 'can cause the spirit to heal 1d6 hit points'. Sounds like a reaction to me.
Evan
P.S. Ran this idea past my party and the ranger has lost it. I am apparently nerfing his entire character and should he just play a base melee fighter.
I read the first page of responses and the last page, so please forgive if this suggestion has been posted. What about requiring the caster to use their reaction to do the healing? The spell specifically states that the caster 'can cause the spirit to heal 1d6 hit points'. Sounds like a reaction to me.
Evan
P.S. Ran this idea past my party and the ranger has lost it. I am apparently nerfing his entire character and should he just play a base melee fighter.
Yeah man, if the fix was that easy, this thread wouldn't be getting bumped for almost 2 years and be 17 pages of posts long.
But is the suggestion entirely unreasonable? Seems like a fairly simple fix, and yes the player will cry that his 'reaction is being stolen!!! ZOMG CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER!!! But a stationary healing post that you wouldn't have to use a reaction for unless someone needed it is great, and then isn't a reaction worth it? I think some (many) players saw a portal to the elemental plane of cheddar and are mad that they can't have endless nachos (mmmmm nachos).
As I read the spell, it states that 'Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit’s space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore 1d6 hit points to that creature (no action required). So no one could use it without your permission. Also, that is the reasoning I am going to use in my game to require the ranger to use his reaction to heal someone with it. Ranger should never be a mainline healer, but if he wants to be then he will have to spend more than say a mainline healer would.
That (no action required) bit is pretty important, FYI.
As it is this spell isn't really overpowered in combat unless players do some serious cheesing, which if the DM is giving the party the opportunity to all move through a single space in one round of combat, that's on them.
The debate is mainly over the use of this spell outside of combat.
Making this spell require a reaction to use is ludicrous; 1d6 or 2d6 healing per turn at the cost of a 2nd level spell slot and concentration is plenty well balanced, and if your party is getting more use out of this per round than that then again, that's on the DM; make your encounters harder or require more tactics, your players shouldn't be able to all move through one space every turn.
If anything, use the suggested method of only allowing this spell to heal a number of times per round equal to the casters spell casting Modifier (Wisdom modifier.) Then it will only be able to heal a maximum of 5 times per round, though for a ranger it would likely be 2 or 3 times per round.
Jaysburn, this spell is nothing but cheesing. That's why it's a problem. It needs to be heavily moderated by the DM and the player is unlikely to be satisfied with the ruling.
I appreciate the directness of the response. This is the first game that he will have the spell, so I will run it RAW in combat. The modifier change for OOC is good though, and I think we will try that. Again, appreciated.
Hmm I just thought of what might be a good homebrew for this spell:
Can only heal once per round, but heals by a number of d4s or d6s equal to your wisdom modifier (minimum 1,) so with +3 Wis mod it would heal someone 3d4 or 3d6, once per round. Cast using higher level spell slots, it can heal more times per round; 1 more per spell slot above 2nd.
If that's too much healing have it be Half (rounded up) WisMod d4 or d6, so a +3 and +4 Wis would be 2d4/2d6 and a +5 wis would be 3d4/3d6.
Hmm I just thought of what might be a good homebrew for this spell:
Can only heal once per round, but heals by a number of d4s or d6s equal to your wisdom modifier (minimum 1,) so with +3 Wis mod it would heal someone 3d4 or 3d6, once per round. Cast using higher level spell slots, it can heal more times per round; 1 more per spell slot above 2nd.
If that's too much healing have it be Half (rounded up) WisMod d4 or d6, so a +3 and +4 Wis would be 2d4/2d6 and a +5 wis would be 3d4/3d6.
But that's still going after the in-combat healing, not the out-of-combat healing. In-combat, there's nothing wrong with the spell -- if the DM lets you get away with anything unreasonable, it's the DM's fault not the players or the spell. Out-of-combat is where the problem lies, because the list of things the DM can do about it becomes dramatically smaller. They basically just have to immediately say "Roll for initiative!" if the spell is cast out-of-combat, and drop another encounter on the party right then and there.
One heal per round is the best/easiest fix. If someone complains that only getting 10d6 healing out of a 2nd level spell slot somehow nerfs their character's design, I'd love to hear aaalll about it. I could use a good laugh today.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I posted exactly this already and got several lengthy "you're wrong" replies, lol.
If I was generous, I'd let it heal whoever started in the healing effect and also allow the caster to move it to heal one other target of choice. This would be in or out of combat. Letting half a dozen characters move through the heal every 6 second seems dumb.
Such an awkward spell. The thing is, it shouldn't really be limited in combat; the 3 or 6 - maybe occasionally 9 - average HP per turn is balanced enough for a 2nd level spell that requires concentration. So any homebrew that limits the spell as is in combat is crippling it's intended use severely.
The "max heals per round equals your wisdom modifier" is a step in the right direction, but really doesn't limit much; in combat you won't reach that, which is good, but out of combat it still allows a ludicrous amount of healing. You might not be able to heal your entire party to max health from the brink of death, but you'll still be healing up to an average max of what, 150HP with a +5 wis mod for a 2nd level spell (30*5)? If you have a large party it's a little more limiting, in a "you can't heal all 7 party members by 30 HP each" kind of way, but for a 4 or 5 person party that's still virtually full heals.
It's not very fitting with how 5e does things, but putting some kind of cap or limit on the healing/concentration might be best. Maybe you can only heal to a certain maximum, perhaps your character level * Wis modifier or proficiency bonus * wismod. Maybe each time it heals you have the player roll a d10 (or smaller) and on a 1 they lose concentration? I dunno, awkward spell.
I envy you.
I've run into the spell, not just in AL, but at a convention where healing contribution of two life clerics was put to complete shame by a Ranger.
It was the ugliest case of buzzkill I'd seen at a tournament in as long as I can remember.
Luckily the Season 8 and Season 9 rule changes were so bad that I abandoned AL for glorious green pastures of home brew. :)
The RAI for this spell seems so simple to me. You only get healed when you move into the space the spell effect is in or when you start your turn there, you don't get the heal by simply "passing through" the area. That means at lowest level, you heal whoever ends their move or starts their turn in the space for 1d6. One minute duration, 1d6 healing per turn, 10d6 total.
If you want to smoke Munchkin crack and Congo or all stack in a 5 ft area, I would say that is intentional rule abuse, not trying to follow RAW to the best of your ability.
That is neither the RAW or the RAI. As the spells says: Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit’s space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there...
You don't have to end your movement in the space, simply move through it; move into it for the first time (preventing you from moving through it multiple times)
The "for the first time" strongly implies that you can keep moving, as you would be able to move out of it and back into it, but only get healed "the first time."
Many spells in 5e work this way, and none of them require you to stop moving.
The problem with the spell isn't what it does, or how it happens. The problem is that there are no hard limits imposed by the spell itself. All it needs is a line stating something like, "The spirit can heal a maximum of (whatever; preferably 1 or 2) number of creatures per round."
The point of this spell is to provide a recurring heal-over-time to a creature in combat. It's a monster of a spell that can still provide an insane amount of healing (for the cost) to a single target. Any more is just absurd.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I never really noticed it being able to be used THAT powerfully, but then again I don't think I've ever seen it used to its best potential now reading the RAW. Its a bit concerning if it can be as powerful for a target thats just passing through, and if it doesn't have a limit to the number of targets then yeah, some clarifications or update to the restrictions would be good.
Quick side question, the spell heals any creature that enters or starts it's turn in the space. If the party is going to try and cheese the spell during combat to heal a bunch.....what is to stop a monster or other enemy from moving into the space and staying there until removed? Like, it can be moved by the caster once a round, but that's about it.
Nothing. An enemy could absolutely do that, and a smart enemy - upon seeing this spirit healing people - might very well think to do so. Certainly a weakness of this spell.
This spell isn't really broken in combat. Sure, it COULD be abused, but doing so would take a lot of effort and frankly he pretty ridiculous. In combat it tends to do exactly what it's meant to - provide a bit of healing to one creature at the start of their turn. It costs a high level spell slot based on the amount of healing provided per turn (2nd level for 1d6) and concentration.
It's meant to allow a backline caster to heal a tank over time, taking up their concentration while they make ranged attacks from behind.
Out of combat is where the issue with this spell is. Being able to recover 35HP for every party member over the course of a minute for a 2nd level slot is definitely pretty nuts. But nothing a good DM can't work with, the only bad thing is how much this outshines other healer's out of combat healing abilities.
I read the first page of responses and the last page, so please forgive if this suggestion has been posted. What about requiring the caster to use their reaction to do the healing? The spell specifically states that the caster 'can cause the spirit to heal 1d6 hit points'. Sounds like a reaction to me.
Evan
P.S. Ran this idea past my party and the ranger has lost it. I am apparently nerfing his entire character and should he just play a base melee fighter.
Yeah man, if the fix was that easy, this thread wouldn't be getting bumped for almost 2 years and be 17 pages of posts long.
Yea, lol I hear you.
But is the suggestion entirely unreasonable? Seems like a fairly simple fix, and yes the player will cry that his 'reaction is being stolen!!! ZOMG CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER!!! But a stationary healing post that you wouldn't have to use a reaction for unless someone needed it is great, and then isn't a reaction worth it? I think some (many) players saw a portal to the elemental plane of cheddar and are mad that they can't have endless nachos (mmmmm nachos).
Evan
As I read the spell, it states that 'Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit’s space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore 1d6 hit points to that creature (no action required). So no one could use it without your permission. Also, that is the reasoning I am going to use in my game to require the ranger to use his reaction to heal someone with it. Ranger should never be a mainline healer, but if he wants to be then he will have to spend more than say a mainline healer would.
Evan
That (no action required) bit is pretty important, FYI.
As it is this spell isn't really overpowered in combat unless players do some serious cheesing, which if the DM is giving the party the opportunity to all move through a single space in one round of combat, that's on them.
The debate is mainly over the use of this spell outside of combat.
Making this spell require a reaction to use is ludicrous; 1d6 or 2d6 healing per turn at the cost of a 2nd level spell slot and concentration is plenty well balanced, and if your party is getting more use out of this per round than that then again, that's on the DM; make your encounters harder or require more tactics, your players shouldn't be able to all move through one space every turn.
If anything, use the suggested method of only allowing this spell to heal a number of times per round equal to the casters spell casting Modifier (Wisdom modifier.) Then it will only be able to heal a maximum of 5 times per round, though for a ranger it would likely be 2 or 3 times per round.
Jaysburn, this spell is nothing but cheesing. That's why it's a problem. It needs to be heavily moderated by the DM and the player is unlikely to be satisfied with the ruling.
Thanks,
I appreciate the directness of the response. This is the first game that he will have the spell, so I will run it RAW in combat. The modifier change for OOC is good though, and I think we will try that. Again, appreciated.
Evan
Hmm I just thought of what might be a good homebrew for this spell:
Can only heal once per round, but heals by a number of d4s or d6s equal to your wisdom modifier (minimum 1,) so with +3 Wis mod it would heal someone 3d4 or 3d6, once per round. Cast using higher level spell slots, it can heal more times per round; 1 more per spell slot above 2nd.
If that's too much healing have it be Half (rounded up) WisMod d4 or d6, so a +3 and +4 Wis would be 2d4/2d6 and a +5 wis would be 3d4/3d6.
But that's still going after the in-combat healing, not the out-of-combat healing. In-combat, there's nothing wrong with the spell -- if the DM lets you get away with anything unreasonable, it's the DM's fault not the players or the spell. Out-of-combat is where the problem lies, because the list of things the DM can do about it becomes dramatically smaller. They basically just have to immediately say "Roll for initiative!" if the spell is cast out-of-combat, and drop another encounter on the party right then and there.
It reduces the out of combat usage to a total of 10 heals (at 2nd level), rather than 10 heals for every single party member.
One heal per round is the best/easiest fix. If someone complains that only getting 10d6 healing out of a 2nd level spell slot somehow nerfs their character's design, I'd love to hear aaalll about it. I could use a good laugh today.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I posted exactly this already and got several lengthy "you're wrong" replies, lol.
If I was generous, I'd let it heal whoever started in the healing effect and also allow the caster to move it to heal one other target of choice. This would be in or out of combat. Letting half a dozen characters move through the heal every 6 second seems dumb.
Such an awkward spell. The thing is, it shouldn't really be limited in combat; the 3 or 6 - maybe occasionally 9 - average HP per turn is balanced enough for a 2nd level spell that requires concentration. So any homebrew that limits the spell as is in combat is crippling it's intended use severely.
The "max heals per round equals your wisdom modifier" is a step in the right direction, but really doesn't limit much; in combat you won't reach that, which is good, but out of combat it still allows a ludicrous amount of healing. You might not be able to heal your entire party to max health from the brink of death, but you'll still be healing up to an average max of what, 150HP with a +5 wis mod for a 2nd level spell (30*5)? If you have a large party it's a little more limiting, in a "you can't heal all 7 party members by 30 HP each" kind of way, but for a 4 or 5 person party that's still virtually full heals.
It's not very fitting with how 5e does things, but putting some kind of cap or limit on the healing/concentration might be best. Maybe you can only heal to a certain maximum, perhaps your character level * Wis modifier or proficiency bonus * wismod. Maybe each time it heals you have the player roll a d10 (or smaller) and on a 1 they lose concentration? I dunno, awkward spell.