This is just for my own clarification of the rules.
When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target. - Tavern Brawler
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield. - Shield Master
The difference in wording makes me believe that shield master needs the attack action to finish before you can shield bash a person, however tavern brawler allows you to attack - grapple - attack because it triggers off a hit. Is my understanding correct?
This is just for my own clarification of the rules.
When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target. - Tavern Brawler
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield. - Shield Master
The difference in wording makes me believe that shield master needs the attack action to finish before you can shield bash a person, however tavern brawler allows you to attack - grapple - attack because it triggers off a hit. Is my understanding correct?
The difference in wording makes me believe that shield master needs the attack action to finish before you can shield bash a person, however tavern brawler allows you to attack - grapple - attack because it triggers off a hit. Is my understanding correct?
I would actually read and view the differences between Tavern Brawler and Shield Master to be more along the lines of the following:
Tavern Brawler requires that you HIT a creature with an unarmed attack. So, in order to use the bonus action to attempt the grapple, you would first have to attack and successful strike the creature to get a grip on them and start the grapple attack.
Shield Master requires you TAKE the Attack action. It does not matter if you successfully hit or not, you just have to attack a creature before you can use your bonus action to attempt the shove with the shield.
With the above clarified, I would say that both options would potentially allow you to take the bonus action between attacks if the character can make two or more attacks with their Attack action (i.e., make the first attack with their Attack action followed by their bonus action before completing any remaining attacks of their Attack action).
Not sure if this is official, but that's how I would read and rule on them as a DM.
The difference in wording makes me believe that shield master needs the attack action to finish before you can shield bash a person, however tavern brawler allows you to attack - grapple - attack because it triggers off a hit. Is my understanding correct?
With the above clarified, I would say that both options would potentially allow you to take the bonus action between attacks if the character can make two or more attacks with their Attack action (i.e., make the first attack with their Attack action followed by their bonus action before completing any remaining attacks of their Attack action).
That's how I'd read it too: Tavern Brawler must hit, Shield master just needs to Attack, but either can take the BA in between attacks (although neither could take the BA before any of the other attacks).
Clarification about bonus actions: if a feature says you can do X as a bonus action if you do Y, you must do Y before you can do X. For Shield Master, that means the bonus action must come after the Attack action. You decide when it happens afterward that turn. - Jeremy Crawford, 11th may 2018
Crawford clearly disagrees on Shield Master being in-between attacks on your attack action. That's why I'm asking about Tavern Brawler, because it doesn't state "If you take the Attack action .." but it states "When you hit a creature..."
The rules for Bonus Actions are that they can be used on your turn - whenever you want - unless they specifically have a timing condition. Shield Master's timing condition is that you take the Attack action. Now - JC says that means you must complete the Attack action to use the shield bash - a lot of people disagree (there have been whole multi-page threads on that) so I won't go into that here.
Edit: Technically the only thing you're able to do between attacks during the Attack action if you have the Extra Attack feature is move - because there's a rule in the movement section which says you can do that. Nothing else has an exception like that - so it's inferred that the Attack action can't be interrupted by anything except movement (or a Reaction I guess). So you can't use your Bonus Action until afterwards.
I don't know many people who rule it that way though.
Sounds like it's a rule conflict where Bonus action states "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified..."
If you'd rule it in the strict sense of a turn then it's movement - action - bonus action, where your bonus action can be used anywhere within that frame. An action with multiple parts would not be broken up. In that sense the attack action is just like the Scorching Ray spell consisting of 3 parts. Where you can't scorching ray 1, misty step, scorching ray 2 & 3.
It becomes a tad silly when the bonus actions from feats are features that you could use to replace an attack form the attack action with, which both shove and grapple are...
Crawford clearly disagrees on Shield Master being in-between attacks on your attack action. That's why I'm asking about Tavern Brawler, because it doesn't state "If you take the Attack action .." but it states "When you hit a creature..."
Well, if the rules indicated that a character cannot use a bonus action between attacks, then I would say that neither Shield Master nor Tavern Brawler would be able to attack-grapple-attack. Even if the verbiage doesn't explicitly state that the character is taking the Attack action, they're obviously doing so in order to hit a creature with an unarmed strike or improvised weapon. So hitting the creature requires the Attack action.
Again, I think the differences in writing is to indicate that the attack has to actually hit the target creature before a grapple can be attempted. Unless there's a way to hit with an unarmed strike or improvised weapon without actually making an attack, I don't see how Tavern Brawler can make the bonus action whereas Shield Master cannot.
No general rule allows you to insert a bonus action between attacks in a single action. You can interrupt a multiple-attack action with a bonus action/reaction only if the trigger of the bonus action/reaction is an attack, rather than the action. This is why tavern brawler works and shield master shove doesn't.
You can interrupt a multiple-attack action with a bonus action/reaction only if the trigger of the bonus action/reaction is an attack, rather than the action.
Okay, if we're looking at the verbiage of Tavern Brawler making the bonus action to grapple be more of a reactive response to successfully hitting a creature (not saying an actual reaction per se), then I could see how it would be allowable to interject it between multiple attacks. So, you're not waiting for the character to complete their Attack action... You're just waiting for one of those attacks to hit the targeted creature. I think that the writing could be a little clearer and/or tighter on the timing point, but it makes sense if you're reading it in that context.
In that sense the attack action is just like the Scorching Ray spell consisting of 3 parts. Where you can't scorching ray 1, misty step, scorching ray 2 & 3.
I like the attempt at the spellcasting analogy, but this example doesn't really fit the same model that we're discussing with Tavern Brawler and Shield Master. The main difference being that the spell specific rules state that you can only use your action to cast a cantrip if you cast another spell with your bonus action. In your example above, a spellcaster should never be able to cast scorching ray with their action and misty step as a bonus action (no matter the order and/or timing).
In that sense the attack action is just like the Scorching Ray spell consisting of 3 parts. Where you can't scorching ray 1, misty step, scorching ray 2 & 3.
I like the attempt at the spellcasting analogy, but this example doesn't really fit the same model that we're discussing with Tavern Brawler and Shield Master. The main difference being that the spell specific rules state that you can only use your action to cast a cantrip if you cast another spell with your bonus action. In your example above, a spellcaster should never be able to cast scorching ray with their action and misty step as a bonus action (no matter the order and/or timing).
Hit in the gut with a technicality.
Replace misty step with magic stone or shillelagh (even though that situation doesn't make sense)
And before I get hit with a TKO, this particular wizard took magic initiate (druid) for inexplicable reasons.
No general rule allows you to insert a bonus action between attacks in a single action.
That’s absolutely false. The general rule is that you can take your bonus action whenever you want on your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified. There’s no rule about the Attack action that contradicts that general rule in its case.
And I completely understand what you're going for even if the specific example falls under a different set of rules... However, piggybacking off of your earlier scorching ray example, I would have potentially allowed a caster to use a bonus action between the three shots if it was applicable and made sense. For example, an arcane trickster uses scorching ray to fire a shot at a target before using their Cunning Action to disengage as a bonus action to safely move to another spot before firing the other two remaining shots.
Not saying that this is acceptable by the general rules, but I currently allow bonus actions to potentially occur between the attacks during an Attack action at my gaming tables. I wouldn't necessarily disallow a spellcaster that is making multiple spell attacks from having that same opportunity if appropriate.
The whole issue with feats granting options for shoving and grappling on a bonus action is weird in the rules. Not being able to put these bonus actions before or in between attacks just devalues the feats themselves.
If we flip the script for a moment. I could take a feat or feature that would allow an attack on a bonus action. In battle I could take the attack action to shove or grapple for my first attack and then attack again with the second attack, and for my bonus action attack a third time.
In my opinion in this case, RAW is vague, RAI is silly, and I can't figure out what this was intended to prevent. Because people can clearly just go polearm master or dual wielder to achieve what tavern brawler and shield master can not. Which game breaking exploit am I missing?
No general rule allows you to insert a bonus action between attacks in a single action.
That’s absolutely false. The general rule is that you can take your bonus action whenever you want on your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified. There’s no rule about the Attack action that contradicts that general rule in its case.
Scorching Ray works the same as Magic Missile, in that all three happen at once and hit at once, correct? You wouldn't be able to move between the first and second shots of a Scorching Ray. (Same goes for Eldritch Blast, Magic Missile, etc.)
The larger issue is that Extra Attack doesn't have stipulations like these spells do. The two attacks necessarily take place at different times in a turn. Personally, I think I'm on the side of being able to do things between multiple attacks on your turn, including Shield Master. The logic that "taking the Attack action" requires finishing the Attack action doesn't hold water to me. You take the Attack action when you initiate the Attack action -- therefore Shield Master is activated as soon as you make that first Attack.
To me, this comes down to how you interpret "take the X action" trigger. I can see three possible ways.
The first is very meta: as soon as you declare that you are taking the action, the trigger condition is met. If you say "I attack the goblin", you have taken the attack action, you just haven't done anything with it yet. I find this plausible, but very meta, as nothing has happened in game for that trigger to be met, so I wouldn't generally use this interpretation.
The second is trip say that at least part of that action has been completed: one attack, or some movement in a dash etc. This would be my preferred interpretation: you have taken the action, and in the game a part of that action has occurred, but you have not yet completed that action. It conflicts with JCs tweet, but it feels more natural and logical to me.
The final way is JCs way, which is to restrict it so that they action only triggers when you take and complete the action. However, this too seems rather meta to me, as you are artificially restricting that one trigger type without a good in-game reason. If you can move between attacks, and you can can trigger effects on a hit in the middle of an attack, it makes zero sense to me that you would have to complete all your extra attacks before triggering the bonus action.
Let's take a look at another feat: Charger. The option to make a bonus action attack or shove is triggered on the dash action. However, by JCs interpretation, you would only be able to do so after you had completed the dash action. If you had used your movement to move 30ft, then taken the dash action and used it to move another 10 to get to an enemy, you could make your bonus action shove but you couldn't use any of the remaining 20ft of dash, because you the bonus action triggers on completion of the dash action. However, if you had instead used only 10ft of movement, then dashed 30ft, you could use your bonus action and then move your remaining 20ft. This is ridiculous, IMHO, so I would rule differently.
This is just for my own clarification of the rules.
The difference in wording makes me believe that shield master needs the attack action to finish before you can shield bash a person, however tavern brawler allows you to attack - grapple - attack because it triggers off a hit. Is my understanding correct?
i do beleive so at least the tavern brawler part
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I would actually read and view the differences between Tavern Brawler and Shield Master to be more along the lines of the following:
With the above clarified, I would say that both options would potentially allow you to take the bonus action between attacks if the character can make two or more attacks with their Attack action (i.e., make the first attack with their Attack action followed by their bonus action before completing any remaining attacks of their Attack action).
Not sure if this is official, but that's how I would read and rule on them as a DM.
That's how I'd read it too: Tavern Brawler must hit, Shield master just needs to Attack, but either can take the BA in between attacks (although neither could take the BA before any of the other attacks).
Crawford clearly disagrees on Shield Master being in-between attacks on your attack action.
That's why I'm asking about Tavern Brawler, because it doesn't state "If you take the Attack action .." but it states "When you hit a creature..."
The rules for Bonus Actions are that they can be used on your turn - whenever you want - unless they specifically have a timing condition. Shield Master's timing condition is that you take the Attack action. Now - JC says that means you must complete the Attack action to use the shield bash - a lot of people disagree (there have been whole multi-page threads on that) so I won't go into that here.
Edit:
Technically the only thing you're able to do between attacks during the Attack action if you have the Extra Attack feature is move - because there's a rule in the movement section which says you can do that. Nothing else has an exception like that - so it's inferred that the Attack action can't be interrupted by anything except movement (or a Reaction I guess). So you can't use your Bonus Action until afterwards.
I don't know many people who rule it that way though.
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I won't discuss JC's opinion here, except to say I disagree and would rule differently.
However, for Tavern Brawler you definitely just need to have hit, nothing else.
Sounds like it's a rule conflict where Bonus action states "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified..."
If you'd rule it in the strict sense of a turn then it's movement - action - bonus action, where your bonus action can be used anywhere within that frame. An action with multiple parts would not be broken up. In that sense the attack action is just like the Scorching Ray spell consisting of 3 parts. Where you can't scorching ray 1, misty step, scorching ray 2 & 3.
It becomes a tad silly when the bonus actions from feats are features that you could use to replace an attack form the attack action with, which both shove and grapple are...
Well, if the rules indicated that a character cannot use a bonus action between attacks, then I would say that neither Shield Master nor Tavern Brawler would be able to attack-grapple-attack. Even if the verbiage doesn't explicitly state that the character is taking the Attack action, they're obviously doing so in order to hit a creature with an unarmed strike or improvised weapon. So hitting the creature requires the Attack action.
Again, I think the differences in writing is to indicate that the attack has to actually hit the target creature before a grapple can be attempted. Unless there's a way to hit with an unarmed strike or improvised weapon without actually making an attack, I don't see how Tavern Brawler can make the bonus action whereas Shield Master cannot.
No general rule allows you to insert a bonus action between attacks in a single action. You can interrupt a multiple-attack action with a bonus action/reaction only if the trigger of the bonus action/reaction is an attack, rather than the action. This is why tavern brawler works and shield master shove doesn't.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I agree with Javier.
Okay, if we're looking at the verbiage of Tavern Brawler making the bonus action to grapple be more of a reactive response to successfully hitting a creature (not saying an actual reaction per se), then I could see how it would be allowable to interject it between multiple attacks. So, you're not waiting for the character to complete their Attack action... You're just waiting for one of those attacks to hit the targeted creature. I think that the writing could be a little clearer and/or tighter on the timing point, but it makes sense if you're reading it in that context.
I like the attempt at the spellcasting analogy, but this example doesn't really fit the same model that we're discussing with Tavern Brawler and Shield Master. The main difference being that the spell specific rules state that you can only use your action to cast a cantrip if you cast another spell with your bonus action. In your example above, a spellcaster should never be able to cast scorching ray with their action and misty step as a bonus action (no matter the order and/or timing).
Hit in the gut with a technicality.
Replace misty step with magic stone or shillelagh (even though that situation doesn't make sense)
And before I get hit with a TKO, this particular wizard took magic initiate (druid) for inexplicable reasons.
----
The example was merely to shift perspective.
That’s absolutely false. The general rule is that you can take your bonus action whenever you want on your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified. There’s no rule about the Attack action that contradicts that general rule in its case.
Well, if we're tavern brawling, then you got keep your guard up to those wild swings and potential gut punches... ;)
And I completely understand what you're going for even if the specific example falls under a different set of rules... However, piggybacking off of your earlier scorching ray example, I would have potentially allowed a caster to use a bonus action between the three shots if it was applicable and made sense. For example, an arcane trickster uses scorching ray to fire a shot at a target before using their Cunning Action to disengage as a bonus action to safely move to another spot before firing the other two remaining shots.
Not saying that this is acceptable by the general rules, but I currently allow bonus actions to potentially occur between the attacks during an Attack action at my gaming tables. I wouldn't necessarily disallow a spellcaster that is making multiple spell attacks from having that same opportunity if appropriate.
The whole issue with feats granting options for shoving and grappling on a bonus action is weird in the rules. Not being able to put these bonus actions before or in between attacks just devalues the feats themselves.
If we flip the script for a moment. I could take a feat or feature that would allow an attack on a bonus action. In battle I could take the attack action to shove or grapple for my first attack and then attack again with the second attack, and for my bonus action attack a third time.
In my opinion in this case, RAW is vague, RAI is silly, and I can't figure out what this was intended to prevent. Because people can clearly just go polearm master or dual wielder to achieve what tavern brawler and shield master can not. Which game breaking exploit am I missing?
Ah, sorry. I should have cited the source of that quote.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Scorching Ray works the same as Magic Missile, in that all three happen at once and hit at once, correct? You wouldn't be able to move between the first and second shots of a Scorching Ray. (Same goes for Eldritch Blast, Magic Missile, etc.)
The larger issue is that Extra Attack doesn't have stipulations like these spells do. The two attacks necessarily take place at different times in a turn. Personally, I think I'm on the side of being able to do things between multiple attacks on your turn, including Shield Master. The logic that "taking the Attack action" requires finishing the Attack action doesn't hold water to me. You take the Attack action when you initiate the Attack action -- therefore Shield Master is activated as soon as you make that first Attack.
To me, this comes down to how you interpret "take the X action" trigger. I can see three possible ways.
The first is very meta: as soon as you declare that you are taking the action, the trigger condition is met. If you say "I attack the goblin", you have taken the attack action, you just haven't done anything with it yet. I find this plausible, but very meta, as nothing has happened in game for that trigger to be met, so I wouldn't generally use this interpretation.
The second is trip say that at least part of that action has been completed: one attack, or some movement in a dash etc. This would be my preferred interpretation: you have taken the action, and in the game a part of that action has occurred, but you have not yet completed that action. It conflicts with JCs tweet, but it feels more natural and logical to me.
The final way is JCs way, which is to restrict it so that they action only triggers when you take and complete the action. However, this too seems rather meta to me, as you are artificially restricting that one trigger type without a good in-game reason. If you can move between attacks, and you can can trigger effects on a hit in the middle of an attack, it makes zero sense to me that you would have to complete all your extra attacks before triggering the bonus action.
Let's take a look at another feat: Charger. The option to make a bonus action attack or shove is triggered on the dash action. However, by JCs interpretation, you would only be able to do so after you had completed the dash action. If you had used your movement to move 30ft, then taken the dash action and used it to move another 10 to get to an enemy, you could make your bonus action shove but you couldn't use any of the remaining 20ft of dash, because you the bonus action triggers on completion of the dash action. However, if you had instead used only 10ft of movement, then dashed 30ft, you could use your bonus action and then move your remaining 20ft. This is ridiculous, IMHO, so I would rule differently.