So I've been playing a character for some time with aspirations to become the owner of a traveling magic shop, but rather than carting it around, he would store it all in a demiplane that he could then open up a door to for patrons to shop in.
I had a few questions about the demiplane spell to see exactly what the abilities and limitations of this kind of set up would be:
1. The spell explains that the door disappears when the spell ends. If my wizard character stays in the space after the door closes, could he recast the spell to reopen the door from inside the demiplane, or would he have trapped himself within his establishment?
2. I've considered forbiddance as an effective security system, leaving only a 10x10 square as an "entrance". Any way a Wizard could get a hold of that spell, or does he need to find a Cleric friend to do him a solid for a month? Guards and wards is also a consideration.
3. A programmed illusion will greet patrons as they enter, explaining the layout and location of certain items.
4. What else could I do to make this a comfortable and inviting shopping space for patrons? Make 5 minutes of Muzak part of the programmed illusion? Make a familiar or unseen servant a permanent fixture?
And no, the re-casting is to connect to the demiplane, not to connect from it. So you have to be careful.
That's what I was afraid of. He'll need to start a timer to make sure and not trap himself (and others) in there... unless he also knows gate...
Forbiddance is a great spell, and you need a cleric, but it's not necessary in this case. There is no fork attuned to the demiplane, so you cannot enter via plane shift anyway. Teleport does not work and only you can create the demiplace access. There is only Gate to protect yourself against, and that is very high level anyway.
The demiplane spell says "Additionally, if you know the nature and contents of a demiplane created by a casting of this spell by another creature, you can have the shadowy door connect to its demiplane instead."
So anyone who knows gate or demiplane could potentially break in and steal things. High level, to be sure, but if he has some sensitive, valuable, or highly sought after items there, security would be ideal.
If you want this, you'd better cast a magnificent mansion inside the demiplane to greet your patrons. More comfortable and more secure as it's an added layer of security.
Sounds like a real hassle. Have his unseen servant cart a bunch of stuff into it, only to have it all vomited out after the spell ends? All just to make his demi-emporium a pleasant place to shop. Sounds like overkill. ;)
There's no reason you couldn't use Plane Shift to get out of a Demiplane that you've been shut inside. And there's no reason why you couldn't work out the tuning fork frequency of your Demiplane and/or use a permanent Teleportation Circle as the target for a Plane Shift to get into one. Just make sure you don't publish the tuning fork frequency or sigil sequence anywhere others can get hold of it.
I think you guys are right. I've been looking at this backwards. If he sets up a magnificent mansion, it allows me to greet clients/patrons in style, and for 24 hours no less. He could show illusions of what's available, and even of what they can do, then he'll open the demiplane vault for an hour to retrieve the actual purchased items.
I would really appreciate an errata to make this functionality clear, however, as before I had seen this I assumed the caster would be trapped.
Where does the new door open from, though? If the caster's not trapped inside, they can cast the spell and open a door from wherever they're at to the demiplane. If they're trapped inside, JC says you can cast the spell to open the door, from inside... one side of the door is obviously in the demiplane, but where is the other side? (I don't mean "how would you rule it?", I mean "according to the rules as written, where is the other side of the door?".)
Seems like the intent is that you are just creating a door to the demiplane with the spell. So they wouldn't be trapped but they would have to wait it out until they could cast again.
The wording is weird but it appears the intent behind it was to not trap you forever in the demiplane...which honestly makes more sense.
However, that does mean you can use it like a prison too as you can just lock someone in there and come back for them later.
Excellent points. As written, there is a dangerous loophole that opportunistic players could exploit. If I'm in my demiplane, then open the door, I could open it wherever I want the door to be, and there's no mechanical recourse for the DM to limit that, at least not as the spell is currently written. Demiplane then becomes your own personal teleportation hub, and the DM has to scramble for personal rulings to rebalance it.
I still think plane shift could get you out. You're not trapped forever if you've got that.
And yeah, this could be an effective prison/containment unit for foes that don't have their own way out.
Ultimately, it's just not going to be the most effective spell for my character's plans. It could be an effective "back room" to get supplies and items from, but not a storefront.
RAW is unclear for sure. Crawford implies that RAI you reopen the same door, and to avoid complications that's how I'd rule, but RAW you open a door, one side of which connects to a demiplane, the other side of which is unclear.
RAW is unclear for sure. Crawford implies that RAI you reopen the same door, and to avoid complications that's how I'd rule, but RAW you open a door, one side of which connects to a demiplane, the other side of which is unclear.
Yeah the actual written text is off of the intent I think. I think I would just do as JC states as I feel that would be the better feel for my groups but other may disagree which is fine.
JC is clarifying that you can leave that specific demiplane by using the spell again. This is just to say they are not trapped in that demiplane forever as they can recast to leave it.
However, he doesn't mean you go back to the Material plane. You'll see further down he clarifies the re-opening of the door would lead to: a demiplane you are familiar with or have created before.
He never says it goes back to whereever you were before the original casting.
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Accessing a demiplane isn't easy if it isn't yours.
The only spells that work are plane shift, demiplane and Gate.
Plane shift requires a tuning fork that is impossible to create if you don't already have access to the demiplane. The only way around this is to have some way around this material component: such as by casting it using Wish. It is often worthwhile for somebody to create a tuning fork to their own demiplane if that demiplane has traps or if there's nothing too secure and you'd just like to go there using a lower level spell slot in future.
Demiplane would require you to be familiar with the target demiplane enough to know its exact contents. This can be easily thwarted by a small pouch of various different stones hidden away. The caster would have to have knowledge of the pouch and know how many of each type of stone is within it.
Gate: On the surface it seems Gate can access any demiplane you know about without needing to know the specific contents or needing anything specifically tuned to it. I mean, it's a 9th level spell and features a 5,000 GP diamond as its own material component. So, it's powerful. There might, possibly, be something in the line in DMG about the Gate spell stating "A deity, demon lord, or other powerful entity can prevent such a portal from opening within its dominion." - Now, sure, you're probably not a deity or demon lord BUT you are, being able to cast 9th level spells (which this same section of DMG describes people casting it as "the most powerful characters") so this technically describes you as a powerful entity. Since you created the demiplane it is, by definition, your dominion. So it can be reasonably argued that as the creator of a demiplane you hold power to shut down or prevent Gate spells accessing it. You'll need to discuss with your DM.
With spells like Glyphs of Warding and items like Spell Gems you could set up traps/defenses. For example, got a diamond spell gem? Store a 9th level Glyph of Warding into it. Next day go into your Demiplane and use the spell gem and a 9th level DIspel Magic - set it to cast the Dispel Magic on any Gate spell that is opened. Then set another Glyph of Warding with a Sending spell to trigger - sending you a message if this Dispel is ever triggered. Somebody attempts to Gate in - their portal is shut down instantly before they can even step into it, and since Gate is 9th level it will be unlikely they can attempt it again - and you will receive a message (now, sure there's a tiny chance you might not get the message, but that's fine) so you'll know it triggered giving you the opportunity to go to the demiplane and add more defenses / lie in wait in case they try again / etc.
You can create other similar defenses - the glyph spell is very useful at creating all sorts of traps.
Another alternative is to either summon celestial/fey/fiend/fey that doesn't need sleep/food/air and use Planar Binding. Or, and this would probably be easier, just use Create Magen to create a few of these. A Hypnos Magen can suggest the interloper to leave and if they don't, your other Magens can attack. There are ways around the HP cost if you combine wish and simulacrum. Speaking of a Simulacrum, you could make one and have them guard it. The Magens are a better suggestion really because they don't need air, sleep or food (and not needing food also means not needing to toilet) so it's easier to maintain by just putting them in and you can not worry about them. Between magens (or planar bound summons) and other glyph-rigged defenses your demiplane should be fine. It's not likely to get intruders often, if ever, really. Most beings able to make Gates are powerful enough to get almost anything and are unlikely to need to steal your wares. And even all this might be unnecessary if the DM agrees that the lines in the DMG mean you can prevent Gate spells.
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I'll also comment that using Unseen Servant is not the best - it cannot go far from you and the moment you or it steps across the barrier between your current plane and the demiplane the servant spell ends. Consider a different summon spell instead that doesn't have to stay near to you.
If you're willing to cast a 7th, 8th and 9th slot: you could set up the tent/stall, cast Magnificent Mansion, then inside that cast Demiplane to your wares storage. Go in, make some Unseen Servants, and start putting boxes/crates through the door (without you or Unseen Servants going through). The Mansion Servants can then take the stuff and set them where you wanted them. Once all set, open up your store for the day. At the end of the day, cast the demiplane spell again to get remaining wares stored in.
If you're 18th level, having Unseen Servant as your 1st level spell you get to cast like a cantrip will help dramatically to very quickly get your wares moved into or out of the demiplane. Or to help set or unset the stall/tent.
As a high level wizard using this you can basically create a highly secure, portable, large emporium. You might only trade for 10 hours of the day, have 2 hours setup/packaway and the remaining 12 hours of the mansion is your sleeping/relaxing. A couple days of the week might be dedicated to travel/restocking/etc. You could make use of Sending and Galder's Speedy Courier to make deals and trades over long distances. You could even hire out adventurer's to help get you rare magic items for selling.
This kind of set up could also be good for other types of businesses too, like a circus.
Mansion + Demiplane combined is really useful for this kind of thing, and highly versatile, especially if you can use other lower spells and magic items that might make it easier.
Which to be honest I would just allow them to come back. It seems weird they can access one way but not another IMO but hey if it works for your group thats fine.
Which to be honest I would just allow them to come back. It seems weird they can access one way but not another IMO but hey if it works for your group thats fine.
They can only go to another demiplane or back to this demiplane. I don't know what you mean by "back", but none of the texts offers the possibility to come back to the place where the first demiplane was actually cast, before you stepped into it.
Back to prime material. I know what the text says but I would just make it so that if you cast in a demiplane of your own creation you can just use the spell to open a door between it and the prime material or whatever plane you originate from when you create the demiplane the first time.
I know its not RAW or apparently even RAI but I find those kinda dumb.
Which to be honest I would just allow them to come back. It seems weird they can access one way but not another IMO but hey if it works for your group thats fine.
They can only go to another demiplane or back to this demiplane. I don't know what you mean by "back", but none of the texts offers the possibility to come back to the place where the first demiplane was actually cast, before you stepped into it.
Back to prime material. I know what the text says but I would just make it so that if you cast in a demiplane of your own creation you can just use the spell to open a door between it and the prime material or whatever plane you originate from when you create the demiplane the first time.
I know its not RAW or apparently even RAI but I find those kinda dumb.
I understand what you are saying and the reasons behind it (and I am not adverse as a house rule), but the thing is that it creates a whole lot of complications. Which door does it open back ? The first one ? The last one ? What about one that was not opened by the original caster ? In all these cases, it provides a much too convenient way to travel to locations by leaving a demiplane behind "linked to it", if you see what I mean, which I don't believe is the intent of the spell...
I mean....yeah no shit. I said exactly that...its not apparently the RAI for the spell.
Its really not complicated:
1. You are in prime material (origination point)
2. You opened the demiplane. congrats your own demiplane! Please name Demiplane! I will call it Harold
3. When you cast Demiplane for Harold you open a gate between the demiplane and the prime material or your current plane.
Done.
If you want to go to another demiplane owned by someone else you can but you need to know the name. Once you cast demiplane to access you create an access point to this demiplane from your origination plane.
Do not give out the name of your demiplane if you do not want people accessing it!
So I've been playing a character for some time with aspirations to become the owner of a traveling magic shop, but rather than carting it around, he would store it all in a demiplane that he could then open up a door to for patrons to shop in.
I had a few questions about the demiplane spell to see exactly what the abilities and limitations of this kind of set up would be:
1. The spell explains that the door disappears when the spell ends. If my wizard character stays in the space after the door closes, could he recast the spell to reopen the door from inside the demiplane, or would he have trapped himself within his establishment?
2. I've considered forbiddance as an effective security system, leaving only a 10x10 square as an "entrance". Any way a Wizard could get a hold of that spell, or does he need to find a Cleric friend to do him a solid for a month? Guards and wards is also a consideration.
3. A programmed illusion will greet patrons as they enter, explaining the layout and location of certain items.
4. What else could I do to make this a comfortable and inviting shopping space for patrons? Make 5 minutes of Muzak part of the programmed illusion? Make a familiar or unseen servant a permanent fixture?
That's what I was afraid of. He'll need to start a timer to make sure and not trap himself (and others) in there... unless he also knows gate...
The demiplane spell says "Additionally, if you know the nature and contents of a demiplane created by a casting of this spell by another creature, you can have the shadowy door connect to its demiplane instead."
So anyone who knows gate or demiplane could potentially break in and steal things. High level, to be sure, but if he has some sensitive, valuable, or highly sought after items there, security would be ideal.
Sounds like a real hassle. Have his unseen servant cart a bunch of stuff into it, only to have it all vomited out after the spell ends? All just to make his demi-emporium a pleasant place to shop. Sounds like overkill. ;)
There's no reason you couldn't use Plane Shift to get out of a Demiplane that you've been shut inside. And there's no reason why you couldn't work out the tuning fork frequency of your Demiplane and/or use a permanent Teleportation Circle as the target for a Plane Shift to get into one. Just make sure you don't publish the tuning fork frequency or sigil sequence anywhere others can get hold of it.
Alternately, just use the plane as a storage room.
I think you guys are right. I've been looking at this backwards. If he sets up a magnificent mansion, it allows me to greet clients/patrons in style, and for 24 hours no less. He could show illusions of what's available, and even of what they can do, then he'll open the demiplane vault for an hour to retrieve the actual purchased items.
Crawford clears up the design intent of this spell in a post: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/20/demiplane-let-the-door-expire-do-i-have-a-way-of-getting-back/
I would really appreciate an errata to make this functionality clear, however, as before I had seen this I assumed the caster would be trapped.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
Where does the new door open from, though? If the caster's not trapped inside, they can cast the spell and open a door from wherever they're at to the demiplane. If they're trapped inside, JC says you can cast the spell to open the door, from inside... one side of the door is obviously in the demiplane, but where is the other side? (I don't mean "how would you rule it?", I mean "according to the rules as written, where is the other side of the door?".)
Seems like the intent is that you are just creating a door to the demiplane with the spell. So they wouldn't be trapped but they would have to wait it out until they could cast again.
The wording is weird but it appears the intent behind it was to not trap you forever in the demiplane...which honestly makes more sense.
However, that does mean you can use it like a prison too as you can just lock someone in there and come back for them later.
Excellent points. As written, there is a dangerous loophole that opportunistic players could exploit. If I'm in my demiplane, then open the door, I could open it wherever I want the door to be, and there's no mechanical recourse for the DM to limit that, at least not as the spell is currently written. Demiplane then becomes your own personal teleportation hub, and the DM has to scramble for personal rulings to rebalance it.
I still think plane shift could get you out. You're not trapped forever if you've got that.
And yeah, this could be an effective prison/containment unit for foes that don't have their own way out.
Ultimately, it's just not going to be the most effective spell for my character's plans. It could be an effective "back room" to get supplies and items from, but not a storefront.
RAW is unclear for sure. Crawford implies that RAI you reopen the same door, and to avoid complications that's how I'd rule, but RAW you open a door, one side of which connects to a demiplane, the other side of which is unclear.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
Yeah the actual written text is off of the intent I think. I think I would just do as JC states as I feel that would be the better feel for my groups but other may disagree which is fine.
JC is clarifying that you can leave that specific demiplane by using the spell again. This is just to say they are not trapped in that demiplane forever as they can recast to leave it.
However, he doesn't mean you go back to the Material plane. You'll see further down he clarifies the re-opening of the door would lead to: a demiplane you are familiar with or have created before.
He never says it goes back to whereever you were before the original casting.
--
Accessing a demiplane isn't easy if it isn't yours.
The only spells that work are plane shift, demiplane and Gate.
Plane shift requires a tuning fork that is impossible to create if you don't already have access to the demiplane. The only way around this is to have some way around this material component: such as by casting it using Wish. It is often worthwhile for somebody to create a tuning fork to their own demiplane if that demiplane has traps or if there's nothing too secure and you'd just like to go there using a lower level spell slot in future.
Demiplane would require you to be familiar with the target demiplane enough to know its exact contents. This can be easily thwarted by a small pouch of various different stones hidden away. The caster would have to have knowledge of the pouch and know how many of each type of stone is within it.
Gate: On the surface it seems Gate can access any demiplane you know about without needing to know the specific contents or needing anything specifically tuned to it. I mean, it's a 9th level spell and features a 5,000 GP diamond as its own material component. So, it's powerful. There might, possibly, be something in the line in DMG about the Gate spell stating "A deity, demon lord, or other powerful entity can prevent such a portal from opening within its dominion." - Now, sure, you're probably not a deity or demon lord BUT you are, being able to cast 9th level spells (which this same section of DMG describes people casting it as "the most powerful characters") so this technically describes you as a powerful entity. Since you created the demiplane it is, by definition, your dominion. So it can be reasonably argued that as the creator of a demiplane you hold power to shut down or prevent Gate spells accessing it. You'll need to discuss with your DM.
With spells like Glyphs of Warding and items like Spell Gems you could set up traps/defenses. For example, got a diamond spell gem? Store a 9th level Glyph of Warding into it. Next day go into your Demiplane and use the spell gem and a 9th level DIspel Magic - set it to cast the Dispel Magic on any Gate spell that is opened. Then set another Glyph of Warding with a Sending spell to trigger - sending you a message if this Dispel is ever triggered. Somebody attempts to Gate in - their portal is shut down instantly before they can even step into it, and since Gate is 9th level it will be unlikely they can attempt it again - and you will receive a message (now, sure there's a tiny chance you might not get the message, but that's fine) so you'll know it triggered giving you the opportunity to go to the demiplane and add more defenses / lie in wait in case they try again / etc.
You can create other similar defenses - the glyph spell is very useful at creating all sorts of traps.
Another alternative is to either summon celestial/fey/fiend/fey that doesn't need sleep/food/air and use Planar Binding. Or, and this would probably be easier, just use Create Magen to create a few of these. A Hypnos Magen can suggest the interloper to leave and if they don't, your other Magens can attack. There are ways around the HP cost if you combine wish and simulacrum. Speaking of a Simulacrum, you could make one and have them guard it. The Magens are a better suggestion really because they don't need air, sleep or food (and not needing food also means not needing to toilet) so it's easier to maintain by just putting them in and you can not worry about them. Between magens (or planar bound summons) and other glyph-rigged defenses your demiplane should be fine. It's not likely to get intruders often, if ever, really. Most beings able to make Gates are powerful enough to get almost anything and are unlikely to need to steal your wares. And even all this might be unnecessary if the DM agrees that the lines in the DMG mean you can prevent Gate spells.
--
I'll also comment that using Unseen Servant is not the best - it cannot go far from you and the moment you or it steps across the barrier between your current plane and the demiplane the servant spell ends. Consider a different summon spell instead that doesn't have to stay near to you.
If you're willing to cast a 7th, 8th and 9th slot: you could set up the tent/stall, cast Magnificent Mansion, then inside that cast Demiplane to your wares storage. Go in, make some Unseen Servants, and start putting boxes/crates through the door (without you or Unseen Servants going through). The Mansion Servants can then take the stuff and set them where you wanted them. Once all set, open up your store for the day. At the end of the day, cast the demiplane spell again to get remaining wares stored in.
If you're 18th level, having Unseen Servant as your 1st level spell you get to cast like a cantrip will help dramatically to very quickly get your wares moved into or out of the demiplane. Or to help set or unset the stall/tent.
As a high level wizard using this you can basically create a highly secure, portable, large emporium. You might only trade for 10 hours of the day, have 2 hours setup/packaway and the remaining 12 hours of the mansion is your sleeping/relaxing. A couple days of the week might be dedicated to travel/restocking/etc. You could make use of Sending and Galder's Speedy Courier to make deals and trades over long distances. You could even hire out adventurer's to help get you rare magic items for selling.
This kind of set up could also be good for other types of businesses too, like a circus.
Mansion + Demiplane combined is really useful for this kind of thing, and highly versatile, especially if you can use other lower spells and magic items that might make it easier.
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Which to be honest I would just allow them to come back. It seems weird they can access one way but not another IMO but hey if it works for your group thats fine.
Back to prime material. I know what the text says but I would just make it so that if you cast in a demiplane of your own creation you can just use the spell to open a door between it and the prime material or whatever plane you originate from when you create the demiplane the first time.
I know its not RAW or apparently even RAI but I find those kinda dumb.
I mean....yeah no shit. I said exactly that...its not apparently the RAI for the spell.
Its really not complicated:
1. You are in prime material (origination point)
2. You opened the demiplane. congrats your own demiplane! Please name Demiplane! I will call it Harold
3. When you cast Demiplane for Harold you open a gate between the demiplane and the prime material or your current plane.
Done.
If you want to go to another demiplane owned by someone else you can but you need to know the name. Once you cast demiplane to access you create an access point to this demiplane from your origination plane.
Do not give out the name of your demiplane if you do not want people accessing it!
So demiplane + demiplane = teleport?
I mean yeah as its an 8th level spell I feel like its appropriate.
... Fair enough.
Not teleport... but rather Gate, a 9th level spell, w/o Concentration, w/o verbal components, and w/o a 5,000pg material component.
Well gate is larger creatures (demiplane medium or smaller) and you have to go to the location first so you are using a 7th and an 8th level.