I find it hard to believe that Banishment would provoke an OA, in either case. It takes place instantly, with no chance for an OA. The creature is there, it's suddenly not there.
FWIW you don't need to see the creature moving, only see it when it does move. Instantaneous effects don't prevent creature from reacting to them if trigger is met, it can happen before it resolves. I am more giving an analysis of strict RAW I don't know if it's necessarily RAI though.
These are the same thing...and again, you aren't moving through the area where opportunity attacks occur. you don't get to make opportunity attacks anywhere except for where the rules say you do, and they say they occur at the limits of your reach, not anywhere inside.
No it's not the same thing. The exact words are;
"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach."
Seeing a creature move, and seeing when it does move are exactly the same thing; if you think otherwise, please provide an example where they are clearly distinct. You also leave out the important part of the rule that says exactly when (and where) the attack happens. Here is the whole paragraph:
"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach."
This is direction to both time and location. You can't just cherry pick the opening sentence and claim it to be the whole rule.
Finally, I don't necessarily think the portion of teleportation that the potential opportunity attacker would see qualifies as movement. Traditional movement is a process with a duration that you can measure and (assuming the creature is visible) see. the attacker is timing their attack based on observing the process of movement so that the attack takes place exactly whenever the creature reaches the boundary of the attackers reach. with Teleportation, they don't see a process, they don't have anything to gauge against, they just see the creature vanish (actually, the creature could be stone-still at the point of vanishing, not moving at all). The "movement" occurs over the entire process of teleporting, but none of that is visible or actionable on (remember, triggers are specific and distinct, so the process of casting a spell that teleports does not apply to opportunity attacks, and in fact only applies to counterspell). otherwise, how would the potential attacker know that the vanishing was based on self-banishment, other-banishment, teleportation, plane-shifting, or other spells (like invisibility)? Under your interpretation, some of these would trigger, and others would not, but there is no in-character distinction you could make to determine what you could lash out a weapon at.
you don't get to make opportunity attacks anywhere except for where the rules say you do, and they say they occur at the limits of your reach, not anywhere inside.
The word "limit of" is not anywhere in the OA rules.
OA are provoked when creatures moves out of your reach, or enters it with PAM, where it actually does is not important, for anywhere it will meets the trigger. So if a creature you can see magically enter your reach - anywhere within it - it still count as "entering your reach"
Seeing a creature move, and seeing when it does move are exactly the same thing;
No it's not, one involve seeing the creature, the other involve seeing the creature movement's. I noted it in response to the fact that such movement would be instantaneous, rather than a motion that you can observe. For exemple, you don't need to see creature moving a square prior to attempt to OA it, it provoke on the initial square moved when it was not moving before.
The attack happening right before it's trigger is the very reason why it could be attacked before being transported away!
As for PAM, the general rule on OA is trumped by TCoE Reaction Timing otherwise the creature would be out of reach and not being able to attack it.
Edited: for "exit" rather than "enter" context, I was too caught up in Polearm Master context and it was blurring the point.
Icon, it just does not say that you enter/exit reach only at the outside perimeter of reach! For a creature with 5 foot reach, there are nine possible squares that your reach covers, eight of which are outside squares and one of which in the center 99% of the time can’t hold anyone other than yourself. But there is no rule that if the square that an enemy ( like say a tiny pixie) finally exits your reach from is that center square... that they have not “exited your reach” properly for an OA. They have! They were inside the area drawn by your reach, now they aren’t! In practice, usually the only real conceivable way to exit that center square without also passing through the other eight is by teleportation, so you cannot take an opportunity attack when that pixie teleports out of your center square… not because they have exited the “wrong square”, but rather because there is a specific rule specifically prohibiting Opportunity attacks against teleportation.
squares and grid play, much like my analogy, are an abstraction to assist with understanding gameplay and are not required to play. In ToTM for instance, there are no squares. OAs trigger when you attempt to leave the reach of the attacker, and the only way to do that and trigger the OA is to physically move out of the area, specifically to pass through the area at the limit of reach (thus the RAW "The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach"), because, as you yourself admit, the only way to leave without doing so physically is by teleporting, which is also the specific exception given for OAs (weird, right?) My analogy of a soap bubble is valid for OAs, not because it is a rule, but because it represents how those attacks work given that the only other way to "leave" is specifically excepted.
You are apologizing for introducing shorthand that is not helpful and then continuing to perpetuate that unhelpful shorthand! There is no rule that only your outside squares provoke opportunity attacks. The rule is that an opportunity attack is provoked when they exit your reach, but not if by teleportation, and that is plenty clear enough already.
I was apologizing because folks like Rav started using the analogy to describe AoE effects, which I do not agree with, and derailed the thread somewhat, and because you got confused (seemingly) thinking that my analogy was being stated as an actual rule, not because i believe the analogy isn't valid or helpful.
I don’t understand what axe you have to grind by trying to introduce a new rule which does not exist anywhere within the players handbook. it is clear that this attempted short hand is getting people off track, apparently including yourself, so just walk it back to what the players handbook says: teleportation doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.
I'm not introducing a new rule, and never claimed I was, I'm trying to help people understand an existing one; the "why" teleportation doesn't work to trigger OAs. I like doing this, because it helps me as a DM describe what is happening, and justify when i tell a player, "no, you can't opportunity attack the creature" This is a narrative game, and not everything should be reduced to gamification concepts all the time. You have to understand how the rules work, and what they look like, and sometimes a visual analogy helps. If it did not help you, I'm sorry, but I'm not writing just for you.
Seeing a creature move, and seeing when it does move are exactly the same thing;
No it's not, one involve seeing the creature, the other involve seeing the creature movement's. I noted it in response to the fact that such movement would be instantaneous, rather than a motion that you can observe. For exemple, you don't need to see creature moving a square prior to attempt to OA it, it provoke on the initial square moved when it was not moving before.
The attack happening right before it's trigger is the very reason why it could be attacked before being transported away!
As for PAM, the general rule on OA is trumped by TCoE Reaction Timing otherwise the creature would be out of reach and not being able to attack it.
Just for my own education wherein Tasha's does it discuss Reaction Timing? I just flipped through the book, and I'm sure I missed it, but I could not find the text.
you don't get to make opportunity attacks anywhere except for where the rules say you do, and they say they occur at the limits of your reach, not anywhere inside.
The word "limit of" is not anywhere in the OA rules.
OA are provoked when creatures moves out of your reach, or enters it with PAM, where it actually does is not important, for anywhere it will meets the trigger. So if a creature you can see magically enter your reach - anywhere within it - it still count as "entering your reach"
I disagree. That would use AoE rules, which are also not listed in OAs. The attack occurs in a specific place and a specific time, and you are changing or ignoring rules to say otherwise.
The rule for OA specifically exempts teleportation from triggering them. I see nothing in the wording of PAM that changes the way teleportation and OAs relate to each other. The OA rule still applies.
This convo is super off topic but also really weird thing to be having to reiterate over and over again. I mean, spells only do what they say. I've shown spells that would trigger for being in their area, and shown what that text would look like. If people wanna run things different they're obviously free to do that but I don't know if its a great thing to be promoting obviously wrong/incorrect rulings as if they're RAW. So I guess we need to settle it.
Sure, it is. But it is a cylinder that only damages when creatures enter it, or when it moves into them. (Or when it first appears)
Being in it, round after round, has no damaging effect.
The spell does not say "moves into them". It says "enters their space".
It's an area of effect spell. It enters your space immediately the moment you teleport into it, because it's filling the entire space you teleported into.
It doesn't enter that space when you teleport to it, it was already in that space.
Here's the thing -- putting semantic arguments about "enter" aside, there has to be a turn in which you make the DEX saving throw when you first come into contact with it,
No there doesn't. Nothing in the rules says this. I know you say it, but the rules don't.
regardless of how that contact was initiated, because the other effects of the spell are contingent on failing that save:
Precisely. When you first enter it, or when it moves, or when it first appears... in any of these 3 specific instances the thing is dangerous.
But hypothetically say someone just walks in and makes their save and has evasion. They've suffered 0 damage and aren't sucked up. Now they're in the thing. Next round the guy who summons it is busy and can't spend his action to move it... now it is our hypothetical rogue's turn again. What ill effect does he suffer from starting his turn inside the area? None. None whatsoever.
Why? Because the spell is entirely silent on this circumstance. So it does nothing because spells don't do things if they don't say they do.
In addition, a Large or smaller creature that fails the save must succeed on a Strength saving throw or become restrained in the whirlwind until the spell ends. When a creature starts its turn restrained by the whirlwind, the creature is pulled 5 feet higher inside it, unless the creature is at the top. A restrained creature moves with the whirlwind and falls when the spell ends, unless the creature has some means to stay aloft.
If your position is that teleporting into the middle of a whirlwind cannot cause you any damage, then your position is that teleporting into the middle of a whirlwind makes you completely immune to all its effects, because you never have to make the initial DEX save and risk failing.
You're not immune to its effects, you just haven't triggered them yet. If the spellcaster moved the whirlwind onto you on a subsequent turn you'd suffer the full effects when it moved into your space. <--- Because that is one of the spell's triggers outlined in the text of the spell.
Just being inside of it does nothing because that isn't a trigger in the text of the spell.
But, again, this is all super off topic and if you need more help with how spells work I suggest creating a new topic specifically for Whirlwind.
Seeing a creature move, and seeing when it does move are exactly the same thing;
No it's not, one involve seeing the creature, the other involve seeing the creature movement's.
Again, prove this by example. You have not provided an example where these are distinct.
I noted it in response to the fact that such movement would be instantaneous, rather than a motion that you can observe. For exemple, you don't need to see creature moving a square prior to attempt to OA it, it provoke on the initial square moved when it was not moving before.
Do creatures take up their whole space? I am not 5 feet wide, though by rules I command that area. if I start moving away from you, I have visibly moved before changing spaces. Unless your entire ecosystem is made up of gelatinous cubes, movement doesn't work the way you think it does.
The attack happening right before it's trigger is the very reason why it could be attacked before being transported away!
Opportunity Attacks are a reaction and happen after the trigger (seeing an enemy start to move out of your reach), but before the creature gets away. this is because most creatures have dimensions. There is measurable time between my body starting to move out of your reach, and my body finishing moving out of your reach. It is in this time that the reaction occurs. Teleportation does not give you that time.
As for PAM, the general rule on OA is trumped by TCoE Reaction Timing otherwise the creature would be out of reach and not being able to attack it.
Again, see above. If I start to leave my space at 0 seconds, I will finish leaving at x time that is not 0 seconds (lets say 1/4 second for our purposes, but it could be shorter). That is because I am 3-dimensional. The trigger is at the 0 second mark, but the reaction OA takes place inside the span of time (between 0 and 0.25) where I am still inside your reach. Teleportation doesn't give you the time, entering or leaving, to make that attack.
Ravnodaus You'd treat them exactly like someone who was already in the area. ... So, yeah, teleporting to an area inside it wouldn't trigger damage.
I brought Whirlwind into the discussion to give you an example of the implications of your ruling as I thought you hadn't quite thought it all the way through. However it seems you're sticking with your interpretation despite the massive effects it has on the majority of AoE spells requiring concentration (e.g. Moonbeam, Spirit Guardians, Blade Barrier). I can respect that. Whatever one rules, consistency is key for good rule adjudication in my opinion.
However, it is important to keep in mind that the game's mechanics (rules) are created to support the narrative, not vice versa. If it does the opposite (create a logical gap in the narrative), it defeats the purpose of the rules. An example of this gap could be having to explain how the teleporting wizard is not affected by all the whirling, razor-sharp blades made by Blade Barrier that he is now standing in the middle of.
That isn't a gap any more than people in the area when these AOE spells first appear also don't immediately take damage either. If you teleport in you're going to take damage at the start of your next turn, because that's what Blade Barrier says it does, triggers damage when a creature starts its turn in the area. Combat rounds are an abstraction, rounds last 6 seconds but everyone's turn is all happening simultaneously. Popin into the area via teleportation but then getting weed-whacked at the start of your next turn is essentially the same timing anyway, within seconds. There is no narrative gap here whatsoever.
The whole reason I brought the Whirlwind into this discussion was to showcase the implications of ruling that a teleporting creature never enters an area. My comment was directed at a claim that teleportation doesn't count as entering an area in any context (as such, the claim was that this is a general rule). My comment had thus only a peripheral connection to rules on OA. This is the basis for my initial comment and for my comments below regarding this off-topic discussion. I hope this clarifies my previous comment to those of you who misunderstood it.
Iconarising It’s not specifically mentioned, but it’s a good way to visualize the RAW of when (and where) the attack occurs. The bubble is a tool to help understanding, not a rule in and of itself
I appreciate your bubble analogy in the context of OA, but carrying it into a discussion removed from the rules on OA is unfortunately not very helpful as OA rules are specific to OA, not general movement. Unless you, like ravnodaus, believe that the general rule for entering an area states that an area is only entered when the area's periphery is crossed while spending movement?
I disagree with Ravnodaus, and didn't bring the analogy into that context, they did. I actually used the "bubble" analogy to contrast the difference between OAs and AoEs. Teleporting "enters" an AoE, because AoEs are a volume. OAs are triggered based on crossing the limit of an attackers reach, which is a spherical surface but excludes the interior (thus the "bubble" analogy), so "entering" that sphere by teleportation is fundamentally different as a general rule than entering an AoE by teleportation. Teleportation gets a special shoutout in OAs for this reason, because it is the only way to enter an area without physically crossing a boundary, so they exclude that method of "entry" from triggering the effect.
I never applied the bubble analogy to AOEs, generally. Just Whirlwind, specifically. Since it only triggers its effect on entering it, it moving into you, or when it first appears, it too acts like a bubble. Unlike most other AOE spells. So, my view is being misrepresented here.
You're not immune to its effects, you just haven't triggered them yet.
As I said earlier, wild. Good luck convincing a DM to let you teleport into the middle of a whirlwind unscathed.
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The whole reason I brought the Whirlwind into this discussion was to showcase the implications of ruling that a teleporting creature never enters an area. My comment was directed at a claim that teleportation doesn't count as entering an area in any context (as such, the claim was that this is a general rule). My comment had thus only a peripheral connection to rules on OA. This is the basis for my initial comment and for my comments below regarding this off-topic discussion. I hope this clarifies my previous comment to those of you who misunderstood it.
Iconarising It’s not specifically mentioned, but it’s a good way to visualize the RAW of when (and where) the attack occurs. The bubble is a tool to help understanding, not a rule in and of itself
I appreciate your bubble analogy in the context of OA, but carrying it into a discussion removed from the rules on OA is unfortunately not very helpful as OA rules are specific to OA, not general movement. Unless you, like ravnodaus, believe that the general rule for entering an area states that an area is only entered when the area's periphery is crossed while spending movement?
I disagree with Ravnodaus, and didn't bring the analogy into that context, they did. I actually used the "bubble" analogy to contrast the difference between OAs and AoEs. Teleporting "enters" an AoE, because AoEs are a volume. OAs are triggered based on crossing the limit of an attackers reach, which is a spherical surface but excludes the interior (thus the "bubble" analogy), so "entering" that sphere by teleportation is fundamentally different as a general rule than entering an AoE by teleportation. Teleportation gets a special shoutout in OAs for this reason, because it is the only way to enter an area without physically crossing a boundary, so they exclude that method of "entry" from triggering the effect.
I never applied the bubble analogy to AOEs, generally. Just Whirlwind, specifically. Since it only triggers its effect on entering it, it moving into you, or when it first appears, it too acts like a bubble. Unlike most other AOE spells. So, my view is being misrepresented here.
You are right, and I'm sorry for misrepresenting your post. I disagree with you that you are not entering Whirlwind by teleporting into it though, as Whirlwind is a volume per AoE rules, and you can enter a volume by teleportation, at least by my interpretation of "enter". (OAs are different because they don't trigger anywhere but the periphery since teleportation is excepted) However, Whirlwind is off topic for this thread, so It's probably best to wrap up that sidebar.
In scenario 1, no OA can be taken because teleportation doesn’t provoke OAs. In 2, no OA because OAs are against creatures you can see. Seriously, I don’t mean this as a heckle, this threshold/bubble shorthand has you way off in left field chasing non-RAW reasons for things that already have explicit RAW answers.
Yeah, I'm kind of sorry for introducing that now...you think you are adding a helpful analogy to help people understand why the RAW works the way it does, but they they start taking it way off into left field, or attacking the analogy instead of the rule itself...oh well
It was a good analogy, but yeah, not everyone argues in good faith and would love nothing more than to attack an analogy as a weak point in your argument as if they're on a highschool debate team and there is somethin to win here.
If someone has difficulty with the concept is is still a great way to explain the concept. But just not for arguing what is or isn't valid by raw. Two different conversations.
I find it hard to believe that Banishment would provoke an OA, in either case. It takes place instantly, with no chance for an OA. The creature is there, it's suddenly not there.
FWIW you don't need to see the creature moving, only see it when it does move. Instantaneous effects don't prevent creature from reacting to them if trigger is met, it can happen before it resolves. I am more giving an analysis of strict RAW I don't know if it's necessarily RAI though.
These are the same thing...and again, you aren't moving through the area where opportunity attacks occur. you don't get to make opportunity attacks anywhere except for where the rules say you do, and they say they occur at the limits of your reach, not anywhere inside.
No it's not the same thing. The exact words are;
"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach."
That is the same picture. No difference.
Whether you see a creature moving or see a creature when it moves. That's exactly, and I mean the exact, same exactly exact, thing.
A "Creature moving" is a "creature when it moves".
Either way, you need to be able to see the creature to make an OA against them.
Edited: for "exit" rather than "enter" context, I was too caught up in Polearm Master context and it was blurring the point.
Icon, it just does not say that you enter/exit reach only at the outside perimeter of reach! For a creature with 5 foot reach, there are nine possible squares that your reach covers, eight of which are outside squares and one of which in the center 99% of the time can’t hold anyone other than yourself. But there is no rule that if the square that an enemy ( like say a tiny pixie) finally exits your reach from is that center square... that they have not “exited your reach” properly for an OA. They have! They were inside the area drawn by your reach, now they aren’t! In practice, usually the only real conceivable way to exit that center square without also passing through the other eight is by teleportation, so you cannot take an opportunity attack when that pixie teleports out of your center square… not because they have exited the “wrong square”, but rather because there is a specific rule specifically prohibiting Opportunity attacks against teleportation.
You are apologizing for introducing shorthand that is not helpful and then continuing to perpetuate that unhelpful shorthand! There is no rule that only your outside squares provoke opportunity attacks. The rule is that an opportunity attack is provoked when they exit your reach, but not if by teleportation, and that is plenty clear enough already.
I don’t understand what axe you have to grind by trying to introduce a new rule which does not exist anywhere within the players handbook. it is clear that this attempted short hand is getting people off track, apparently including yourself, so just walk it back to what the players handbook says: teleportation doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.
This. This is why you never apologize for a helpful analogy. Some people will infer that your analogy was incorrect if you do.
Seeing a creature move, and seeing when it does move are exactly the same thing;
No it's not, one involve seeing the creature, the other involve seeing the creature movement's. I noted it in response to the fact that such movement would be instantaneous, rather than a motion that you can observe. For exemple, you don't need to see creature moving a square prior to attempt to OA it, it provoke on the initial square moved when it was not moving before.
The attack happening right before it's trigger is the very reason why it could be attacked before being transported away!
As for PAM, the general rule on OA is trumped by TCoE Reaction Timing otherwise the creature would be out of reach and not being able to attack it.
This is false. Neither of those phrases means this bolded text of yours. Both phrases mean that you see the creature. Both mean you see that creature while it is moving. Both imply that you would see the creature's movement, but neither explicitly requires it.
...OAs trigger when you attempt to leave the reach of the attacker, and the only way to do that and trigger the OA is to physically move out of the area, specifically to pass through the area at the limit of reach (thus the RAW "The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach"), because, as you yourself admit, the only way to leave without doing so physically is by teleporting, which is also the specific exception given for OAs (weird, right?) My analogy of a soap bubble is valid for OAs, not because it is a rule, but because it represents how those attacks work given that the only other way to "leave" is specifically excepted...
There are other ways to leave reach from the center of it without teleporting. Walking through a magical portal that's within your reach might be one of them, and your analogy introduces unnecessary confusion about that OA.
...OAs trigger when you attempt to leave the reach of the attacker, and the only way to do that and trigger the OA is to physically move out of the area, specifically to pass through the area at the limit of reach (thus the RAW "The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach"), because, as you yourself admit, the only way to leave without doing so physically is by teleporting, which is also the specific exception given for OAs (weird, right?) My analogy of a soap bubble is valid for OAs, not because it is a rule, but because it represents how those attacks work given that the only other way to "leave" is specifically excepted...
There are other ways to leave reach from the center of it without teleporting. Walking through a magical portal that's within your reach might be one of them, and your analogy introduces unnecessary confusion about that OA.
True true, but in this case you are still physically leaving the reach (by physically stepping/moving through the portal). Portals aren't teleporting; you have just introduced a new "bubble" (quite literally, since the portal is 2 dimensional in most cases, or close enough to it that it would be similar enough to the "bubble" to still work as an analogy)
...OAs trigger when you attempt to leave the reach of the attacker, and the only way to do that and trigger the OA is to physically move out of the area, specifically to pass through the area at the limit of reach (thus the RAW "The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach"), because, as you yourself admit, the only way to leave without doing so physically is by teleporting, which is also the specific exception given for OAs (weird, right?) My analogy of a soap bubble is valid for OAs, not because it is a rule, but because it represents how those attacks work given that the only other way to "leave" is specifically excepted...
There are other ways to leave reach from the center of it without teleporting. Walking through a magical portal that's within your reach might be one of them, and your analogy introduces unnecessary confusion about that OA.
Walking through a magical portal doesn't provoke an OA unless they leave the other person's reach as normal. This isn't an exception, it's a red herring.
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Seeing a creature move, and seeing when it does move are exactly the same thing; if you think otherwise, please provide an example where they are clearly distinct. You also leave out the important part of the rule that says exactly when (and where) the attack happens. Here is the whole paragraph:
"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach."
This is direction to both time and location. You can't just cherry pick the opening sentence and claim it to be the whole rule.
Finally, I don't necessarily think the portion of teleportation that the potential opportunity attacker would see qualifies as movement. Traditional movement is a process with a duration that you can measure and (assuming the creature is visible) see. the attacker is timing their attack based on observing the process of movement so that the attack takes place exactly whenever the creature reaches the boundary of the attackers reach. with Teleportation, they don't see a process, they don't have anything to gauge against, they just see the creature vanish (actually, the creature could be stone-still at the point of vanishing, not moving at all). The "movement" occurs over the entire process of teleporting, but none of that is visible or actionable on (remember, triggers are specific and distinct, so the process of casting a spell that teleports does not apply to opportunity attacks, and in fact only applies to counterspell). otherwise, how would the potential attacker know that the vanishing was based on self-banishment, other-banishment, teleportation, plane-shifting, or other spells (like invisibility)? Under your interpretation, some of these would trigger, and others would not, but there is no in-character distinction you could make to determine what you could lash out a weapon at.
The word "limit of" is not anywhere in the OA rules.
OA are provoked when creatures moves out of your reach, or enters it with PAM, where it actually does is not important, for anywhere it will meets the trigger. So if a creature you can see magically enter your reach - anywhere within it - it still count as "entering your reach"
No it's not, one involve seeing the creature, the other involve seeing the creature movement's. I noted it in response to the fact that such movement would be instantaneous, rather than a motion that you can observe. For exemple, you don't need to see creature moving a square prior to attempt to OA it, it provoke on the initial square moved when it was not moving before.
The attack happening right before it's trigger is the very reason why it could be attacked before being transported away!
As for PAM, the general rule on OA is trumped by TCoE Reaction Timing otherwise the creature would be out of reach and not being able to attack it.
squares and grid play, much like my analogy, are an abstraction to assist with understanding gameplay and are not required to play. In ToTM for instance, there are no squares. OAs trigger when you attempt to leave the reach of the attacker, and the only way to do that and trigger the OA is to physically move out of the area, specifically to pass through the area at the limit of reach (thus the RAW "The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach"), because, as you yourself admit, the only way to leave without doing so physically is by teleporting, which is also the specific exception given for OAs (weird, right?) My analogy of a soap bubble is valid for OAs, not because it is a rule, but because it represents how those attacks work given that the only other way to "leave" is specifically excepted.
I was apologizing because folks like Rav started using the analogy to describe AoE effects, which I do not agree with, and derailed the thread somewhat, and because you got confused (seemingly) thinking that my analogy was being stated as an actual rule, not because i believe the analogy isn't valid or helpful.
I'm not introducing a new rule, and never claimed I was, I'm trying to help people understand an existing one; the "why" teleportation doesn't work to trigger OAs. I like doing this, because it helps me as a DM describe what is happening, and justify when i tell a player, "no, you can't opportunity attack the creature" This is a narrative game, and not everything should be reduced to gamification concepts all the time. You have to understand how the rules work, and what they look like, and sometimes a visual analogy helps. If it did not help you, I'm sorry, but I'm not writing just for you.
Just for my own education wherein Tasha's does it discuss Reaction Timing? I just flipped through the book, and I'm sure I missed it, but I could not find the text.
I disagree. That would use AoE rules, which are also not listed in OAs. The attack occurs in a specific place and a specific time, and you are changing or ignoring rules to say otherwise.
The rule for OA specifically exempts teleportation from triggering them. I see nothing in the wording of PAM that changes the way teleportation and OAs relate to each other. The OA rule still applies.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It doesn't enter that space when you teleport to it, it was already in that space.
No there doesn't. Nothing in the rules says this. I know you say it, but the rules don't.
Precisely. When you first enter it, or when it moves, or when it first appears... in any of these 3 specific instances the thing is dangerous.
But hypothetically say someone just walks in and makes their save and has evasion. They've suffered 0 damage and aren't sucked up. Now they're in the thing. Next round the guy who summons it is busy and can't spend his action to move it... now it is our hypothetical rogue's turn again. What ill effect does he suffer from starting his turn inside the area? None. None whatsoever.
Why? Because the spell is entirely silent on this circumstance. So it does nothing because spells don't do things if they don't say they do.
You're not immune to its effects, you just haven't triggered them yet. If the spellcaster moved the whirlwind onto you on a subsequent turn you'd suffer the full effects when it moved into your space. <--- Because that is one of the spell's triggers outlined in the text of the spell.
Just being inside of it does nothing because that isn't a trigger in the text of the spell.
But, again, this is all super off topic and if you need more help with how spells work I suggest creating a new topic specifically for Whirlwind.
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Again, prove this by example. You have not provided an example where these are distinct.
Do creatures take up their whole space? I am not 5 feet wide, though by rules I command that area. if I start moving away from you, I have visibly moved before changing spaces. Unless your entire ecosystem is made up of gelatinous cubes, movement doesn't work the way you think it does.
Opportunity Attacks are a reaction and happen after the trigger (seeing an enemy start to move out of your reach), but before the creature gets away. this is because most creatures have dimensions. There is measurable time between my body starting to move out of your reach, and my body finishing moving out of your reach. It is in this time that the reaction occurs. Teleportation does not give you that time.
Again, see above. If I start to leave my space at 0 seconds, I will finish leaving at x time that is not 0 seconds (lets say 1/4 second for our purposes, but it could be shorter). That is because I am 3-dimensional. The trigger is at the 0 second mark, but the reaction OA takes place inside the span of time (between 0 and 0.25) where I am still inside your reach. Teleportation doesn't give you the time, entering or leaving, to make that attack.
That isn't a gap any more than people in the area when these AOE spells first appear also don't immediately take damage either. If you teleport in you're going to take damage at the start of your next turn, because that's what Blade Barrier says it does, triggers damage when a creature starts its turn in the area. Combat rounds are an abstraction, rounds last 6 seconds but everyone's turn is all happening simultaneously. Popin into the area via teleportation but then getting weed-whacked at the start of your next turn is essentially the same timing anyway, within seconds. There is no narrative gap here whatsoever.
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I never applied the bubble analogy to AOEs, generally. Just Whirlwind, specifically. Since it only triggers its effect on entering it, it moving into you, or when it first appears, it too acts like a bubble. Unlike most other AOE spells. So, my view is being misrepresented here.
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As I said earlier, wild. Good luck convincing a DM to let you teleport into the middle of a whirlwind unscathed.
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You are right, and I'm sorry for misrepresenting your post. I disagree with you that you are not entering Whirlwind by teleporting into it though, as Whirlwind is a volume per AoE rules, and you can enter a volume by teleportation, at least by my interpretation of "enter". (OAs are different because they don't trigger anywhere but the periphery since teleportation is excepted) However, Whirlwind is off topic for this thread, so It's probably best to wrap up that sidebar.
It was a good analogy, but yeah, not everyone argues in good faith and would love nothing more than to attack an analogy as a weak point in your argument as if they're on a highschool debate team and there is somethin to win here.
If someone has difficulty with the concept is is still a great way to explain the concept. But just not for arguing what is or isn't valid by raw. Two different conversations.
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That is the same picture. No difference.
Whether you see a creature moving or see a creature when it moves. That's exactly, and I mean the exact, same exactly exact, thing.
A "Creature moving" is a "creature when it moves".
Either way, you need to be able to see the creature to make an OA against them.
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This. This is why you never apologize for a helpful analogy. Some people will infer that your analogy was incorrect if you do.
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This is false. Neither of those phrases means this bolded text of yours. Both phrases mean that you see the creature. Both mean you see that creature while it is moving. Both imply that you would see the creature's movement, but neither explicitly requires it.
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There are other ways to leave reach from the center of it without teleporting. Walking through a magical portal that's within your reach might be one of them, and your analogy introduces unnecessary confusion about that OA.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
True true, but in this case you are still physically leaving the reach (by physically stepping/moving through the portal). Portals aren't teleporting; you have just introduced a new "bubble" (quite literally, since the portal is 2 dimensional in most cases, or close enough to it that it would be similar enough to the "bubble" to still work as an analogy)
Walking through a magical portal doesn't provoke an OA unless they leave the other person's reach as normal. This isn't an exception, it's a red herring.
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