Actually this is a good analogy for the whirlwind spell too though. A creature inside it doesn't take damage, only entering it, or it running you down, triggers the damage. Being inside it round after round causes no damage. So, the whirlwind is like a soap bubble too, just a threshold... at least, for the damage portion, anyway.
It isn't though, because the whirlwind is a 10-foot radius area effect that does damage to everyone in that area when it first contacts them. It's a solid cylinder, not an empty circle.
It does no damage to people inside it whatsoever.
It absolutely does.
A creature must make a Dexterity saving throw the first time on a turn that it enters the whirlwind or that the whirlwind enters its space, including when the whirlwind first appears. A creature takes 10d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
That doesn't do anything to someone already in it. The whirlwind isn't entering their space. They're not entering the whirlwind. Nothing happens.
And you only enter areas when you move? Not when you're carried, thrown, dragged, teleported, etc. etc. That's your position?
The three boldened are types of movement. Teleport is not.
Source?
The SAC (if you care about such things) doesn't seem to agree with you on that. Nor does the PHB Chapter 9, which talks about teleportation as a way to move while prone. The fact that PHB Chapter 9 brings up teleportation at all in the context of Opportunity Attacks when a creature "moves out of reach" is another good indication that 5E recognizes you're moving while teleporting (though admittedly, not moving using your available movement defined by speed, usually).
Feels a little thin to say that walking from A to B is movement, being thrown/pushed/dragged/carried from A to B is movement, but teleportation from A to B isn't movement.
In the context of Opportunity Attacks movement has to be voluntary, and has to penetrate the boundary formed by reach. They are not AOEs, the “entering” only exists as penetrating the “bubble” made by the attackers reach, which teleporting decidedly does not do. Once you are inside, OAs are irrelevant
Actually this is a good analogy for the whirlwind spell too though. A creature inside it doesn't take damage, only entering it, or it running you down, triggers the damage. Being inside it round after round causes no damage. So, the whirlwind is like a soap bubble too, just a threshold... at least, for the damage portion, anyway.
It isn't though, because the whirlwind is a 10-foot radius area effect that does damage to everyone in that area when it first contacts them. It's a solid cylinder, not an empty circle.
It does no damage to people inside it whatsoever.
It absolutely does.
A creature must make a Dexterity saving throw the first time on a turn that it enters the whirlwind or that the whirlwind enters its space, including when the whirlwind first appears. A creature takes 10d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
That doesn't do anything to someone already in it. The whirlwind isn't entering their space. They're not entering the whirlwind. Nothing happens.
So when the spell first appears, you think it only does damage to people on the outer ring of it? That's wild.
It's a cylinder area of effect. It's not hollow.
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Oh it's absolutely getting off topic. But then again, the thread was over in February.
But also, I challenge you to find a quote in the PHB that describes this "bubble" you're referring to. Reach is an area defined by a radius, not the line/ring/whatever drawn around "the bubble" of that area. Source for holding otherwise?
Sure, ordinarily, to enter or exit an area you cross that threshold, passing through your non-RAW "bubble." Teleportation is a way to enter/exit the area without doing that... and Opportunity Attack has an entry that specifically addresses Teleportation. Not by saying it doesn't provoke an OA because it bypassed the "bubble," but just as a statement: Teleportation does not provoke an Opportunity Attack. Is that because of this non-existent "bubble"? Nah, because being pushed, pulled, thrown, etc. through "bubble" doesn't provoke an OA either, so all we can really say is... teleportation is a type of movement that doesn't provoke OAs!
Does Polearm Master sufficiently overwrite normal OA language in a way that would make teleportation into the area provoke an OA, even though teleportation out of the area doesn't? Nah. PHB Chapter 9 doesn't say that you don't provoke OA's when you teleport out of an area, it just says you don't provoke OA's when you teleport period. That's awful specifically talking about all teleportation in any direction, and I don't see more-specific language in polearm master which would partially walk that backwards.
TLDR: Teleportation never provokes OAs, because Teleportation never provokes OAs, not because of some unwritten "bubble" concept.
Oh it's absolutely getting off topic. But then again, the thread was over in February.
But also, I challenge you to find a quote in the PHB that describes this "bubble" you're referring to. Reach is an area defined by a radius, not the line/ring/whatever drawn around "the bubble" of that area. Source for holding otherwise?
Sure, ordinarily, to enter or exit an area you cross that threshold, passing through your non-RAW "bubble." Teleportation is a way to enter/exit the area without doing that... and Opportunity Attack has an entry that specifically addresses Teleportation. Not by saying it doesn't provoke an OA because it bypassed the "bubble," but just as a statement: Teleportation does not provoke an Opportunity Attack. Is that because of this non-existent "bubble"? Nah, because being pushed, pulled, thrown, etc. through "bubble" doesn't provoke an OA either, so all we can really say is... teleportation is a type of movement that doesn't provoke OAs!
Does Polearm Master sufficiently overwrite normal OA language in a way that would make teleportation into the area provoke an OA, even though teleportation out of the area doesn't? Nah. PHB Chapter 9 doesn't say that you don't provoke OA's when you teleport out of an area, it just says you don't provoke OA's when you teleport period. That's awful specifically talking about all teleportation in any direction, and I don't see more-specific language in polearm master which would partially walk that backwards.
TLDR: Teleportation never provokes OAs, because Teleportation never provokes OAs, not because of some unwritten "bubble" concept.
I quoted the portion of the rule that defined when the attack takes place (right before you leave reach) and extrapolated the position of the attack from that. It’s not specifically mentioned, but it’s a good way to visualize the RAW of when (and where) the attack occurs. The bubble is a tool to help understanding, not a rule in and of itself
Feels a little thin to say that walking from A to B is movement, being thrown/pushed/dragged/carried from A to B is movement, but teleportation from A to B isn't movement.
It can feel however you want it to feel I guess.
Teleportation is magic. It isn't real. Totally fictional. It doesn't work like the real world does. To go from point A to B in the real world of course requires movement. Of course your instincts are totally right that to get from A to B you must move. In our real lives it always works that way, so its easy to assume your judgement that it always must be true is reasonable one...
Except, specifically, with teleportation. Why? Because that is actually what teleportation is. Moving from A to B without the moving part. That's precisely what teleport means.
Any and every other type of movement requires the movement part. But not teleporting because, again, bear with me: That is what the word "teleport" means.
So, is it "thin" to expect a word to mean what it is defined as? Nope.
So when the spell first appears, you think it only does damage to people on the outer ring of it? That's wild.
It's a cylinder area of effect. It's not hollow.
Anton, I don't think they're saying that (at least I hope not), but Whirlwindis a weird spell that doesn't quite work like other damaging AOEs.
A whirlwind howls down to a point that you can see on the ground within range. The whirlwind is a 10-foot-radius, 30-foot-high cylinder centered on that point. Until the spell ends, you can use your action to move the whirlwind up to 30 feet in any direction along the ground. The whirlwind sucks up any Medium or smaller objects that aren’t secured to anything and that aren’t worn or carried by anyone.
A creature must make a Dexterity saving throw the first time on a turn that it enters the whirlwind or that the whirlwind enters its space, including when the whirlwind first appears. A creature takes 10d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. In addition, a Large or smaller creature that fails the save must succeed on a Strength saving throw or become restrained in the whirlwind until the spell ends. When a creature starts its turn restrained by the whirlwind, the creature is pulled 5 feet higher inside it, unless the creature is at the top. A restrained creature moves with the whirlwind and falls when the spell ends, unless the creature has some means to stay aloft.
A restrained creature can use an action to make a Strength or Dexterity check against your spell save DC. If successful, the creature is no longer restrained by the whirlwind and is hurled 3d6 × 10 feet away from it in a random direction.
When it's cast so that its AOE includes you, or when you move into its AOE from outside of its AOE, or when its AOE moves to engulf you.... then yes, you roll the save, and possibly become restrained if you failed. If you fail that save and are restrained, then on future rounds while you remain within the AOE, you start to get lifted up into the sky, though you don't take any more damage. But if you pass that save, or if you fail that save but don't become restrained for some reason, or are restrained but then end the condition in a way other than making the strength or dex checks mentioned, then on future rounds while you remain within the AOE, you just... hang out in the AOE, it isn't even treated as difficult terrain!
There may well be a RAI gap there, it really feels like starting your turn in the AOE should ask for more saves, but hey, it doesn't.
But teleporting into the AOE? That's entering it, there's no unwritten "bubble" in play, and you'll have to make that save that round you teleport in even if its right to the 'eye of the storm'!
Ah, glad we're on the same page! Shorthand can help understand things sometimes, but more often, ends up taking on a life of its own and leading to unwritten implications that aren't supported by the rule text. This seems like one of them.
Teleportation is magic. It isn't real. Totally fictional. It doesn't work like the real world does. To go from point A to B in the real world of course requires movement. Of course your instincts are totally right that to get from A to B you must move. In our real lives it always works that way, so its easy to assume your judgement that it always must be true is reasonable one...
Except, specifically, with teleportation. Why? Because that is actually what teleportation is. Moving from A to B without the moving part. That's precisely what teleport means.
Any and every other type of movement requires the movement part. But not teleporting because, again, bear with me: That is what the word "teleport" means.
So, is it "thin" to expect a word to mean what it is defined as? Nope.
Teleportation is magical movement. The PHB calls it movement, the SAC calls it movement, and it feels like you're trying to define a new third (fourth? 5E is already lousy with misleading re-uses of common terms) definition for movement to provide a general rule about "enter" effects that allows locomotion or being physically hurled but not teleportation that just... doesn't exist.
Actually this is a good analogy for the whirlwind spell too though. A creature inside it doesn't take damage, only entering it, or it running you down, triggers the damage. Being inside it round after round causes no damage. So, the whirlwind is like a soap bubble too, just a threshold... at least, for the damage portion, anyway.
It isn't though, because the whirlwind is a 10-foot radius area effect that does damage to everyone in that area when it first contacts them. It's a solid cylinder, not an empty circle.
It does no damage to people inside it whatsoever.
It absolutely does.
A creature must make a Dexterity saving throw the first time on a turn that it enters the whirlwind or that the whirlwind enters its space, including when the whirlwind first appears. A creature takes 10d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
That doesn't do anything to someone already in it. The whirlwind isn't entering their space. They're not entering the whirlwind. Nothing happens.
So when the spell first appears, you think it only does damage to people on the outer ring of it? That's wild.
No I think it does exactly what it says and damages everything in the area when it first appears because it says that. No need to strawman.
It's a cylinder area of effect. It's not hollow.
Sure, it is. But it is a cylinder that only damages when creatures enter it, or when it moves into them. (Or when it first appears)
Being in it, round after round, has no damaging effect.
Why not? because the spell doesn't say it does. Spells really only do what they say they do.
If it was going to do damage to targets within its area, it'd probably say that right? Might even be clearly worded like one of a half dozen other spells that DO damage targets within their area each turn.
Excerpt from Moonbeam:
When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there,
I bolded that bit that is missing from Whirlwind.
Whirlwind simply doesn't do damage to creatures already inside it.
Ah, glad we're on the same page! Shorthand can help understand things sometimes, but more often, ends up taking on a life of its own and leading to unwritten implications that aren't supported by the rule text. This seems like one of them.
Generally it is better if we don't try to scold one another for... *checks notes* Helpful analogies that help explain concepts.
Teleportation is magic. It isn't real. Totally fictional. It doesn't work like the real world does. To go from point A to B in the real world of course requires movement. Of course your instincts are totally right that to get from A to B you must move. In our real lives it always works that way, so its easy to assume your judgement that it always must be true is reasonable one...
Except, specifically, with teleportation. Why? Because that is actually what teleportation is. Moving from A to B without the moving part. That's precisely what teleport means.
Any and every other type of movement requires the movement part. But not teleporting because, again, bear with me: That is what the word "teleport" means.
So, is it "thin" to expect a word to mean what it is defined as? Nope.
Teleportation is magical movement.
Fixed.
it feels like you're trying to
Again, you're allowed to feel any way you want. Your feelings are always valid. Unfortunately, regardless of how you feel: You don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport.
I'd be curious what you think Hallowdoes, under your interpretation.5th level spell to stop demons walking through your church doors, but not teleporting into the rectory?
Sure, it is. But it is a cylinder that only damages when creatures enter it, or when it moves into them. (Or when it first appears)
Being in it, round after round, has no damaging effect.
The spell does not say "moves into them". It says "enters their space".
It's an area of effect spell. It enters your space immediately the moment you teleport into it, because it's filling the entire space you teleported into.
Here's the thing -- putting semantic arguments about "enter" aside, there has to be a turn in which you make the DEX saving throw when you first come into contact with it, regardless of how that contact was initiated, because the other effects of the spell are contingent on failing that save:
In addition, a Large or smaller creature that fails the save must succeed on a Strength saving throw or become restrained in the whirlwind until the spell ends. When a creature starts its turn restrained by the whirlwind, the creature is pulled 5 feet higher inside it, unless the creature is at the top. A restrained creature moves with the whirlwind and falls when the spell ends, unless the creature has some means to stay aloft.
If your position is that teleporting into the middle of a whirlwind cannot cause you any damage, then your position is that teleporting into the middle of a whirlwind makes you completely immune to all its effects, because you never have to make the initial DEX save and risk failing.
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The whole reason I brought the Whirlwind into this discussion was to showcase the implications of ruling that a teleporting creature never enters an area. My comment was directed at a claim that teleportation doesn't count as entering an area in any context (as such, the claim was that this is a general rule). My comment had thus only a peripheral connection to rules on OA. This is the basis for my initial comment and for my comments below regarding this off-topic discussion. I hope this clarifies my previous comment to those of you who misunderstood it.
AntonSirius [1] If you teleport into a whirlwind, you don't cross the threshold to enter the space when you bamf in just as with an opportunity attack, but the whirlwind definitely enters your space the moment it becomes yours.
[2] It isn't though, because the whirlwind is a 10-foot radius area effect that does damage to everyone in that area when it first contacts them. It's a solid cylinder, not an empty circle.
[3] If your position is that teleporting into the middle of a whirlwind cannot cause you any damage, then your position is that teleporting into the middle of a whirlwind makes you completely immune to all its effects, because you never have to make the initial DEX save and risk failing.
[1] I still don't understand what makes you say that teleporting into an AoE doesn't count as you entering the space but as the AoE entering your space. If anyone entered anything (which is what this off-topic discussion is about) clearly it must have been the one doing the movement that entered the area not vice versa?
[2] The type of area still doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not the area is "entered".
[3] Yes that is his position, for all spells that have triggering effects upon "entering". That is why I brought up this spell in the first place.
Iconarising It’s not specifically mentioned, but it’s a good way to visualize the RAW of when (and where) the attack occurs. The bubble is a tool to help understanding, not a rule in and of itself
I appreciate your bubble analogy in the context of OA, but carrying it into a discussion removed from the rules on OA is unfortunately not very helpful as OA rules are specific to OA, not general movement. Unless you, like ravnodaus, believe that the general rule for entering an area states that an area is only entered when the area's periphery is crossed while spending movement?
Ravnodaus You'd treat them exactly like someone who was already in the area. ... So, yeah, teleporting to an area inside it wouldn't trigger damage.
I brought Whirlwind into the discussion to give you an example of the implications of your ruling as I thought you hadn't quite thought it all the way through. However it seems you're sticking with your interpretation despite the massive effects it has on the majority of AoE spells requiring concentration (e.g. Moonbeam, Spirit Guardians, Blade Barrier). I can respect that. Whatever one rules, consistency is key for good rule adjudication in my opinion.
However, it is important to keep in mind that the game's mechanics (rules) are created to support the narrative, not vice versa. If it does the opposite (create a logical gap in the narrative), it defeats the purpose of the rules. An example of this gap could be having to explain how the teleporting wizard is not affected by all the whirling, razor-sharp blades made by Blade Barrier that he is now standing in the middle of.
In the context of Opportunity Attacks movement has to be voluntary, and has to penetrate the boundary formed by reach. They are not AOEs, the “entering” only exists as penetrating the “bubble” made by the attackers reach, which teleporting decidedly does not do. Once you are inside, OAs are irrelevant
The movement does not need to be voluntary, to trigger OA, but it does need to be under one's own power. Dissonant whispers and turn undead are both compelled (involuntary) movement, but they do trigger OA. This may not seem like much of a distinction, but it matters for things like booming bladewhere willing movement is called out explicitly.
All of that being said, I take your point about crossing the boundary of reach. Misty step and other teleportation spells circumvent the crossing of the boundary of reach, so in essence I am confirming what you are saying.
In the context of Opportunity Attacks movement has to be voluntary, and has to penetrate the boundary formed by reach. They are not AOEs, the “entering” only exists as penetrating the “bubble” made by the attackers reach, which teleporting decidedly does not do. Once you are inside, OAs are irrelevant
The movement does not need to be voluntary, to trigger OA, but it does need to be under one's own power. Dissonant whispers and turn undead are both compelled (involuntary) movement, but they do trigger OA. This may not seem like much of a distinction, but it matters for things like booming bladewhere willing movement is called out explicitly.
All of that being said, I take your point about crossing the boundary of reach. Misty step and other teleportation spells circumvent the crossing of the boundary of reach, so in essence I am confirming what you are saying.
That way lies madness. If a spell that compels you to do something somehow doesn't count as willing - if there's some mystical way to differentiate what you "really" want from what a spell has told you to want - then it means all manner of things just break down. For example, that would prevent you from using Dominate Monster to coerce a creature into joining you on a jaunt using Dimension Door - and that's just the tip of the iceberg, because Dominate Monster says you can tell the target to decide to be willing to do a thing. Things just keep getting more and more tenuous as you try to divine a line between "truly willing" and "willing because a spell told you to be willing". Eventually you'll be so far down the rabbit hole you'll be banning summons from joining in with Dimension Door. It's absolute, utter madness.
[1] I still don't understand what makes you say that teleporting into an AoE doesn't count as you entering the space but as the AoE entering your space. If anyone entered anything (which is what this off-topic discussion is about) clearly it must have been the one doing the movement that entered the area not vice versa?
I said you don't cross the threshold from an adjacent space to enter the new space when you teleport. You simply appear in it. As this had become a semantic debate about what "entering" meant in the context of opportunity attacks etc., I was attempting to point out that really didn't matter for whirlwind.
[3] Yes that is his position, for all spells that have triggering effects upon "entering". That is why I brought up this spell in the first place.
I was asking for clarification because Ravnodaus seemed to be trying to separate the damage-dealing effects of the spell from the other effects, as though you could be affected by the latter without first being hit by the former.
Being in it, round after round, has no damaging effect.
Whirlwind simply doesn't do damage to creatures already inside it.
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The whole reason I brought the Whirlwind into this discussion was to showcase the implications of ruling that a teleporting creature never enters an area. My comment was directed at a claim that teleportation doesn't count as entering an area in any context (as such, the claim was that this is a general rule). My comment had thus only a peripheral connection to rules on OA. This is the basis for my initial comment and for my comments below regarding this off-topic discussion. I hope this clarifies my previous comment to those of you who misunderstood it.
Iconarising It’s not specifically mentioned, but it’s a good way to visualize the RAW of when (and where) the attack occurs. The bubble is a tool to help understanding, not a rule in and of itself
I appreciate your bubble analogy in the context of OA, but carrying it into a discussion removed from the rules on OA is unfortunately not very helpful as OA rules are specific to OA, not general movement. Unless you, like ravnodaus, believe that the general rule for entering an area states that an area is only entered when the area's periphery is crossed while spending movement?
I disagree with Ravnodaus, and didn't bring the analogy into that context, they did. I actually used the "bubble" analogy to contrast the difference between OAs and AoEs. Teleporting "enters" an AoE, because AoEs are a volume. OAs are triggered based on crossing the limit of an attackers reach, which is a spherical surface but excludes the interior (thus the "bubble" analogy), so "entering" that sphere by teleportation is fundamentally different as a general rule than entering an AoE by teleportation. Teleportation gets a special shoutout in OAs for this reason, because it is the only way to enter an area without physically crossing a boundary, so they exclude that method of "entry" from triggering the effect.
I actually used the "bubble" analogy to contrast the difference between OAs and AoEs. Teleporting "enters" an AoE, because AoEs are a volume. OAs are triggered based on crossing the limit of an attackers reach, which is a spherical surface but excludes the interior
When creatures teleport within 5 feet of a Polearm Master, did they enter the reach it has with that weapon? Yes. Just like when creatures teleport within a room or planeshift onto another plane, they do enter it.
PAM/OA are not triggered based on crossing space's limits but on entering/leaving reach specifically. The only reason teleport doesn't provoke OA is because it specifically say so. By contrast, leaving the reach of a creature by Plane Shift still provoke OA as it's not specifically noted otherwise. (for the caster using the action to do so or say if it was done somehow as a reaction via an magic item or something similar)
That doesn't do anything to someone already in it. The whirlwind isn't entering their space. They're not entering the whirlwind. Nothing happens.
I got quotes!
In the context of Opportunity Attacks movement has to be voluntary, and has to penetrate the boundary formed by reach. They are not AOEs, the “entering” only exists as penetrating the “bubble” made by the attackers reach, which teleporting decidedly does not do. Once you are inside, OAs are irrelevant
So when the spell first appears, you think it only does damage to people on the outer ring of it? That's wild.
It's a cylinder area of effect. It's not hollow.
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Oh it's absolutely getting off topic. But then again, the thread was over in February.
But also, I challenge you to find a quote in the PHB that describes this "bubble" you're referring to. Reach is an area defined by a radius, not the line/ring/whatever drawn around "the bubble" of that area. Source for holding otherwise?
Sure, ordinarily, to enter or exit an area you cross that threshold, passing through your non-RAW "bubble." Teleportation is a way to enter/exit the area without doing that... and Opportunity Attack has an entry that specifically addresses Teleportation. Not by saying it doesn't provoke an OA because it bypassed the "bubble," but just as a statement: Teleportation does not provoke an Opportunity Attack. Is that because of this non-existent "bubble"? Nah, because being pushed, pulled, thrown, etc. through "bubble" doesn't provoke an OA either, so all we can really say is... teleportation is a type of movement that doesn't provoke OAs!
Does Polearm Master sufficiently overwrite normal OA language in a way that would make teleportation into the area provoke an OA, even though teleportation out of the area doesn't? Nah. PHB Chapter 9 doesn't say that you don't provoke OA's when you teleport out of an area, it just says you don't provoke OA's when you teleport period. That's awful specifically talking about all teleportation in any direction, and I don't see more-specific language in polearm master which would partially walk that backwards.
TLDR: Teleportation never provokes OAs, because Teleportation never provokes OAs, not because of some unwritten "bubble" concept.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I quoted the portion of the rule that defined when the attack takes place (right before you leave reach) and extrapolated the position of the attack from that. It’s not specifically mentioned, but it’s a good way to visualize the RAW of when (and where) the attack occurs. The bubble is a tool to help understanding, not a rule in and of itself
It can feel however you want it to feel I guess.
Teleportation is magic. It isn't real. Totally fictional. It doesn't work like the real world does. To go from point A to B in the real world of course requires movement. Of course your instincts are totally right that to get from A to B you must move. In our real lives it always works that way, so its easy to assume your judgement that it always must be true is reasonable one...
Except, specifically, with teleportation. Why? Because that is actually what teleportation is. Moving from A to B without the moving part. That's precisely what teleport means.
Any and every other type of movement requires the movement part. But not teleporting because, again, bear with me: That is what the word "teleport" means.
So, is it "thin" to expect a word to mean what it is defined as? Nope.
I got quotes!
Anton, I don't think they're saying that (at least I hope not), but Whirlwind is a weird spell that doesn't quite work like other damaging AOEs.
When it's cast so that its AOE includes you, or when you move into its AOE from outside of its AOE, or when its AOE moves to engulf you.... then yes, you roll the save, and possibly become restrained if you failed. If you fail that save and are restrained, then on future rounds while you remain within the AOE, you start to get lifted up into the sky, though you don't take any more damage. But if you pass that save, or if you fail that save but don't become restrained for some reason, or are restrained but then end the condition in a way other than making the strength or dex checks mentioned, then on future rounds while you remain within the AOE, you just... hang out in the AOE, it isn't even treated as difficult terrain!
There may well be a RAI gap there, it really feels like starting your turn in the AOE should ask for more saves, but hey, it doesn't.
But teleporting into the AOE? That's entering it, there's no unwritten "bubble" in play, and you'll have to make that save that round you teleport in even if its right to the 'eye of the storm'!
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Ah, glad we're on the same page! Shorthand can help understand things sometimes, but more often, ends up taking on a life of its own and leading to unwritten implications that aren't supported by the rule text. This seems like one of them.
Teleportation is magical movement. The PHB calls it movement, the SAC calls it movement, and it feels like you're trying to define a new third (fourth? 5E is already lousy with misleading re-uses of common terms) definition for movement to provide a general rule about "enter" effects that allows locomotion or being physically hurled but not teleportation that just... doesn't exist.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
No I think it does exactly what it says and damages everything in the area when it first appears because it says that. No need to strawman.
Sure, it is. But it is a cylinder that only damages when creatures enter it, or when it moves into them. (Or when it first appears)
Being in it, round after round, has no damaging effect.
Why not? because the spell doesn't say it does. Spells really only do what they say they do.
If it was going to do damage to targets within its area, it'd probably say that right? Might even be clearly worded like one of a half dozen other spells that DO damage targets within their area each turn.
Excerpt from Moonbeam:
I bolded that bit that is missing from Whirlwind.
Whirlwind simply doesn't do damage to creatures already inside it.
I got quotes!
Generally it is better if we don't try to scold one another for... *checks notes* Helpful analogies that help explain concepts.
Fixed.
Again, you're allowed to feel any way you want. Your feelings are always valid. Unfortunately, regardless of how you feel: You don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport.
I got quotes!
I'd be curious what you think Hallow does, under your interpretation.5th level spell to stop demons walking through your church doors, but not teleporting into the rectory?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I would just like to say I am not with him, I have my own loopholes for why teleportation doesn't trigger PAM OAs without ignoring area hazards.
The spell does not say "moves into them". It says "enters their space".
It's an area of effect spell. It enters your space immediately the moment you teleport into it, because it's filling the entire space you teleported into.
Here's the thing -- putting semantic arguments about "enter" aside, there has to be a turn in which you make the DEX saving throw when you first come into contact with it, regardless of how that contact was initiated, because the other effects of the spell are contingent on failing that save:
If your position is that teleporting into the middle of a whirlwind cannot cause you any damage, then your position is that teleporting into the middle of a whirlwind makes you completely immune to all its effects, because you never have to make the initial DEX save and risk failing.
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The whole reason I brought the Whirlwind into this discussion was to showcase the implications of ruling that a teleporting creature never enters an area. My comment was directed at a claim that teleportation doesn't count as entering an area in any context (as such, the claim was that this is a general rule). My comment had thus only a peripheral connection to rules on OA. This is the basis for my initial comment and for my comments below regarding this off-topic discussion. I hope this clarifies my previous comment to those of you who misunderstood it.
[1] I still don't understand what makes you say that teleporting into an AoE doesn't count as you entering the space but as the AoE entering your space. If anyone entered anything (which is what this off-topic discussion is about) clearly it must have been the one doing the movement that entered the area not vice versa?
[2] The type of area still doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not the area is "entered".
[3] Yes that is his position, for all spells that have triggering effects upon "entering". That is why I brought up this spell in the first place.
I appreciate your bubble analogy in the context of OA, but carrying it into a discussion removed from the rules on OA is unfortunately not very helpful as OA rules are specific to OA, not general movement. Unless you, like ravnodaus, believe that the general rule for entering an area states that an area is only entered when the area's periphery is crossed while spending movement?
I brought Whirlwind into the discussion to give you an example of the implications of your ruling as I thought you hadn't quite thought it all the way through. However it seems you're sticking with your interpretation despite the massive effects it has on the majority of AoE spells requiring concentration (e.g. Moonbeam, Spirit Guardians, Blade Barrier). I can respect that. Whatever one rules, consistency is key for good rule adjudication in my opinion.
However, it is important to keep in mind that the game's mechanics (rules) are created to support the narrative, not vice versa. If it does the opposite (create a logical gap in the narrative), it defeats the purpose of the rules. An example of this gap could be having to explain how the teleporting wizard is not affected by all the whirling, razor-sharp blades made by Blade Barrier that he is now standing in the middle of.
The movement does not need to be voluntary, to trigger OA, but it does need to be under one's own power. Dissonant whispers and turn undead are both compelled (involuntary) movement, but they do trigger OA. This may not seem like much of a distinction, but it matters for things like booming blade where willing movement is called out explicitly.
All of that being said, I take your point about crossing the boundary of reach. Misty step and other teleportation spells circumvent the crossing of the boundary of reach, so in essence I am confirming what you are saying.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That way lies madness. If a spell that compels you to do something somehow doesn't count as willing - if there's some mystical way to differentiate what you "really" want from what a spell has told you to want - then it means all manner of things just break down. For example, that would prevent you from using Dominate Monster to coerce a creature into joining you on a jaunt using Dimension Door - and that's just the tip of the iceberg, because Dominate Monster says you can tell the target to decide to be willing to do a thing. Things just keep getting more and more tenuous as you try to divine a line between "truly willing" and "willing because a spell told you to be willing". Eventually you'll be so far down the rabbit hole you'll be banning summons from joining in with Dimension Door. It's absolute, utter madness.
I said you don't cross the threshold from an adjacent space to enter the new space when you teleport. You simply appear in it. As this had become a semantic debate about what "entering" meant in the context of opportunity attacks etc., I was attempting to point out that really didn't matter for whirlwind.
I was asking for clarification because Ravnodaus seemed to be trying to separate the damage-dealing effects of the spell from the other effects, as though you could be affected by the latter without first being hit by the former.
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I disagree with Ravnodaus, and didn't bring the analogy into that context, they did. I actually used the "bubble" analogy to contrast the difference between OAs and AoEs. Teleporting "enters" an AoE, because AoEs are a volume. OAs are triggered based on crossing the limit of an attackers reach, which is a spherical surface but excludes the interior (thus the "bubble" analogy), so "entering" that sphere by teleportation is fundamentally different as a general rule than entering an AoE by teleportation. Teleportation gets a special shoutout in OAs for this reason, because it is the only way to enter an area without physically crossing a boundary, so they exclude that method of "entry" from triggering the effect.
I thought it was understood that moving was leaving a space to enter another, reglardless of movement type.
When creatures teleport within 5 feet of a Polearm Master, did they enter the reach it has with that weapon? Yes. Just like when creatures teleport within a room or planeshift onto another plane, they do enter it.
PAM/OA are not triggered based on crossing space's limits but on entering/leaving reach specifically. The only reason teleport doesn't provoke OA is because it specifically say so. By contrast, leaving the reach of a creature by Plane Shift still provoke OA as it's not specifically noted otherwise. (for the caster using the action to do so or say if it was done somehow as a reaction via an magic item or something similar)