heya gang I put this large orc battle against a city the PCs come into it after its already started I was putting maybe 1000 orcs forced into play and about 800 city forces there’s 5 PCs level 5 how should I play this out like attack in the area and have the rest of the armies play out in the background? Or is there other things maybe like have them take out siege engines and orcs around it and the War Chief and the other army takes out the lesser orcs? Thoughts Ideas??
As odd as this sounds keep it simple. Make assumptions about the battle. Adjust as things progress.
Simple side, make it them fighting on the walls or dealing with orcs that make it into the city. This makes it somewhat easier to make encounters for you as the DM. I see this playing out somewhat like the old Lord of the Rings game Return of a King where you fight through some orc groups, move to the walls, fight some more. Then deal with some bigger bads (in the game it was trolls) maybe some stronger orcs with PC levels. But really what I am aiming for is break it into smaller segments, it will be easier to manage.
When I said make assumptions, I am really saying don't make them actually fight a few hundred orcs (unless that is really what you want from the encounter) make them fight the strongest sections of the orcs. The city will do pretty well for themselves, albeit with heavy losses so let them take the brunt of the assault and bring the PCs into the important parts of the battle. Perhaps they have to deal with the main gates and orcs coming in, or they have already gotten through the gate and they need to go sweep up the orc bands roaming the city.
The adjust as things proceed is along the line of if your players are just loving cleaving through hordes of enemies, allow them to indulge. When that loses its appeal move to some other set battles. Siege engines are a definite possibility, and open up some other encounter options (perhaps before the main attack) like going out and sabotaging their siege machinery. Give them a stealthy mission or something along the lines.
Sieges are going to be about the endurance of the party, how long can they maintain their combat effectiveness and the like. I will say this, if you are going to throw numbers of enemies out there consider the following. An attacking enemy force against fortified position (especially orcs) will have larger numbers than the defenders (unless they have some other way to open the gates. City defenders of like 400 vs 1000 orcs (yes there is book titled thousand orcs) would be in my opinion more appropriate but that is super nitpicky and immaterial.
Good luck and I hope you can make use of even one thing from this post.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
If it helps, the CORE 1-3 Adventure: A Hole in the World, details pretty much this exact scenario, with some additional issues of a Modron army also trying to enter the city from within via a planar rift....so two armies vs. the party and the city they are in.
Basically, the adventure has something of a "army tracker" that tracks how much time the party has to solve some pressing issues, like orc sappers trying to blow up the walls and set fire to the armory, etc. and then, depending on how they do, has a mini-game or two to help arm the populace and patch up walls, maybe even tamp down on some orcs that get through...
Basically the army fight with the city watch is the set dressing for the smaller fights the party is going to get in.
I'd also recommend adjusting the numbers of the defenders. I don't have hard numbers but off of the top of my head I believe 1 defender was worth 10 attackers in a siege with a castle. The second thing is as the others have said, this is an endurance game.
Plan out the entire siege as IF the PC's don't exist. Of course the caste will fall to the orcs if the PC were not there, right?
If the caste eventually falls to an assault or will they starve and surrender?
How much food and water does the castle have until they run out of supplies?
How many resources do the orcs have? ie: are they capable of building siege engines and if so what kind? How long will their food last raiding the local country side?
How much medium-high level magic do both sides have? Remember any magic used on assault won't be available for defense/healing.
Once you know how the siege should go IF the PCs are not there... This gives them time start affecting that plan.
If it's a supply issue are the Ranger and Druid going to burn ALL their 1st level spells on Goodberry so they can help feed the population? Because helping 'the people' is worth more?
What does the party do in the "down time" when not on a mission? Does the Wizard or Warlock use their familiar to scout? Is the Druid Wildshape and spy? Is the Cleric or Paladin providing help and hope to the population? Is the Fighter and Rogue attempting to reinforce the defenses?
I think Morale, Food, Water, War Materials are all resources both sides should be tracking.
Yeah I hadn't even thought on the support side, but supporting the food and healing of the city is a super good idea.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I'm trying them out pretty soon myself, the PCs will be fighting at a strategic point and they will control their side in the larger fight. Depending on how they do, events will unfold and they can move to another spot on the battlefield etc... The timing isn't 1 to 1 for the mass combat so there will be some time dilution and fudging on my part :)
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I'm writing a city assault chapter of a homebrew campaign, so this discussion is a big help :)
I found the biggest help was to play the whole city assault out in phases based on the final outcome. During each phase, go through from both sides how it would play out in a truly life-or-death situation. Do the attackers have special weapons/troops or a massive numerical advantage? Do the defenders have an escape plan and/or layers of contingency defenses in the city?
After looking at the grand scheme, zoom in on how the players come into the whole development. Are they stalwat defenders on the wall? Rescuers escorting civilians through tunnels? Conquerors acclaimed for topping the great gate?
These are a few things that have helped me greatly, but I have spent weeks planning out this chapter alone. The greatest thing about being a DM is the ability to alter on the fly. I have multiple paths planned in my campaign's assault chapter, but it won't be an A, B, or C choice; it will be based on what role the players want to take on during the assault.
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Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
I am about to run a simmilar siege situation at Port Nyanzarue as a follow up to ToA. The Frost Giants are convinced that their quarry is in the port, so they are laying siege from the outside. They have a force of hobgoblins and dire wolves at their disposal. PC's are level 12.
I plan to run some of the Siege in a "Risk" style combat, if that gives you some thoughts. I'm going to have 3 major gates that are experiencing pressure. The group will need to find the commander amidst the chaos to get control of the defensive forces of port Nyanzarue and begin organizing their reinforcements. Then we're gonna essentially play a home brewed version of risk, with a cool element where they can drop one of their heros into battle if they are taking heavy losses at one of the gates. If they do that I will make up situational stuff like "ladders on the wall for goblins" or "giant just broke down the gate and a pack of dire wolves are tearing our forces apart from the inside."
So they handle the conflict, head back to command, until they have secured the outer gates. Then I'm not sure wtf will go down but I have a few ships coming in from the port side so that should mix things up.
I know you probably already ran this encounter but I figured ide share. I'm looking for advice on running the concept I just mentioned if it gives anybody some ideas
Highly recommend making any large scale battles in dnd really just small fights tied together for the party. DND isn’t lord of the rings grand battles. It’s small group adventures. The story and world can be epic but the players live in a quest or adventure, not part of a phalanx or Frontlines
heya gang I put this large orc battle against a city the PCs come into it after its already started I was putting maybe 1000 orcs forced into play and about 800 city forces there’s 5 PCs level 5 how should I play this out like attack in the area and have the rest of the armies play out in the background? Or is there other things maybe like have them take out siege engines and orcs around it and the War Chief and the other army takes out the lesser orcs? Thoughts Ideas??
As odd as this sounds keep it simple. Make assumptions about the battle. Adjust as things progress.
Simple side, make it them fighting on the walls or dealing with orcs that make it into the city. This makes it somewhat easier to make encounters for you as the DM. I see this playing out somewhat like the old Lord of the Rings game Return of a King where you fight through some orc groups, move to the walls, fight some more. Then deal with some bigger bads (in the game it was trolls) maybe some stronger orcs with PC levels. But really what I am aiming for is break it into smaller segments, it will be easier to manage.
When I said make assumptions, I am really saying don't make them actually fight a few hundred orcs (unless that is really what you want from the encounter) make them fight the strongest sections of the orcs. The city will do pretty well for themselves, albeit with heavy losses so let them take the brunt of the assault and bring the PCs into the important parts of the battle. Perhaps they have to deal with the main gates and orcs coming in, or they have already gotten through the gate and they need to go sweep up the orc bands roaming the city.
The adjust as things proceed is along the line of if your players are just loving cleaving through hordes of enemies, allow them to indulge. When that loses its appeal move to some other set battles. Siege engines are a definite possibility, and open up some other encounter options (perhaps before the main attack) like going out and sabotaging their siege machinery. Give them a stealthy mission or something along the lines.
Sieges are going to be about the endurance of the party, how long can they maintain their combat effectiveness and the like. I will say this, if you are going to throw numbers of enemies out there consider the following. An attacking enemy force against fortified position (especially orcs) will have larger numbers than the defenders (unless they have some other way to open the gates. City defenders of like 400 vs 1000 orcs (yes there is book titled thousand orcs) would be in my opinion more appropriate but that is super nitpicky and immaterial.
Good luck and I hope you can make use of even one thing from this post.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
If it helps, the CORE 1-3 Adventure: A Hole in the World, details pretty much this exact scenario, with some additional issues of a Modron army also trying to enter the city from within via a planar rift....so two armies vs. the party and the city they are in.
Basically, the adventure has something of a "army tracker" that tracks how much time the party has to solve some pressing issues, like orc sappers trying to blow up the walls and set fire to the armory, etc. and then, depending on how they do, has a mini-game or two to help arm the populace and patch up walls, maybe even tamp down on some orcs that get through...
Basically the army fight with the city watch is the set dressing for the smaller fights the party is going to get in.
I like a lot of HeroZero's points.
I'd also recommend adjusting the numbers of the defenders. I don't have hard numbers but off of the top of my head I believe 1 defender was worth 10 attackers in a siege with a castle. The second thing is as the others have said, this is an endurance game.
Plan out the entire siege as IF the PC's don't exist. Of course the caste will fall to the orcs if the PC were not there, right?
If the caste eventually falls to an assault or will they starve and surrender?
How much food and water does the castle have until they run out of supplies?
How many resources do the orcs have? ie: are they capable of building siege engines and if so what kind? How long will their food last raiding the local country side?
How much medium-high level magic do both sides have? Remember any magic used on assault won't be available for defense/healing.
Once you know how the siege should go IF the PCs are not there... This gives them time start affecting that plan.
If it's a supply issue are the Ranger and Druid going to burn ALL their 1st level spells on Goodberry so they can help feed the population? Because helping 'the people' is worth more?
What does the party do in the "down time" when not on a mission? Does the Wizard or Warlock use their familiar to scout? Is the Druid Wildshape and spy? Is the Cleric or Paladin providing help and hope to the population? Is the Fighter and Rogue attempting to reinforce the defenses?
I think Morale, Food, Water, War Materials are all resources both sides should be tracking.
Yeah I hadn't even thought on the support side, but supporting the food and healing of the city is a super good idea.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Unearthed Arcana had put out some simple, mass combat rules if you want to put a little effort into the 'background' fight.
https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf
I'm trying them out pretty soon myself, the PCs will be fighting at a strategic point and they will control their side in the larger fight. Depending on how they do, events will unfold and they can move to another spot on the battlefield etc... The timing isn't 1 to 1 for the mass combat so there will be some time dilution and fudging on my part :)
Here's an article I wrote on this very subject back in February.
https://dmsden.tumblr.com/post/157020507292/fog-of-war-my-narrative-technique-for-running
Are you a DM in need of advice? Want to get it from a DM of nearly 40 years of experience who happens to be an anthropomorphic bear? Join the thousands of readers at the DM's Den. New articles every week. Questions answered! Answers questioned! http://dmsden.tumblr.com
I'm writing a city assault chapter of a homebrew campaign, so this discussion is a big help :)
I found the biggest help was to play the whole city assault out in phases based on the final outcome. During each phase, go through from both sides how it would play out in a truly life-or-death situation. Do the attackers have special weapons/troops or a massive numerical advantage? Do the defenders have an escape plan and/or layers of contingency defenses in the city?
After looking at the grand scheme, zoom in on how the players come into the whole development. Are they stalwat defenders on the wall? Rescuers escorting civilians through tunnels? Conquerors acclaimed for topping the great gate?
These are a few things that have helped me greatly, but I have spent weeks planning out this chapter alone. The greatest thing about being a DM is the ability to alter on the fly. I have multiple paths planned in my campaign's assault chapter, but it won't be an A, B, or C choice; it will be based on what role the players want to take on during the assault.
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
I am about to run a simmilar siege situation at Port Nyanzarue as a follow up to ToA. The Frost Giants are convinced that their quarry is in the port, so they are laying siege from the outside. They have a force of hobgoblins and dire wolves at their disposal. PC's are level 12.
I plan to run some of the Siege in a "Risk" style combat, if that gives you some thoughts. I'm going to have 3 major gates that are experiencing pressure. The group will need to find the commander amidst the chaos to get control of the defensive forces of port Nyanzarue and begin organizing their reinforcements. Then we're gonna essentially play a home brewed version of risk, with a cool element where they can drop one of their heros into battle if they are taking heavy losses at one of the gates. If they do that I will make up situational stuff like "ladders on the wall for goblins" or "giant just broke down the gate and a pack of dire wolves are tearing our forces apart from the inside."
So they handle the conflict, head back to command, until they have secured the outer gates. Then I'm not sure wtf will go down but I have a few ships coming in from the port side so that should mix things up.
I know you probably already ran this encounter but I figured ide share. I'm looking for advice on running the concept I just mentioned if it gives anybody some ideas
Highly recommend making any large scale battles in dnd really just small fights tied together for the party. DND isn’t lord of the rings grand battles. It’s small group adventures. The story and world can be epic but the players live in a quest or adventure, not part of a phalanx or Frontlines