Wizards can do just about anything, it's true. But they have limited resources to work with regardless of their level, which means that there's no point where they can do everything.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Mage armor is the only spell on that list that lasts more than one fight. Wizards have options for protecting themselves, but doing so requires an investment of their spell slots that means they won't have those same slots available for doing anything about hostiles.
Yes, but that's why Bladesinger is designed around using cantrips & weapon attacks vs hostiles. There are almost no wizard spells that gain anything from being cast while you are in the frontline so you either stand at the back doing wizards stuff, or you used your spells for defense and use weapon attacks/cantrips, or you throw up a battlefield control spell and then pick off whomever is left.
I am not sure how many bladesingers put 20 into Dex. I would prioritise Con over Dex, at higher levels AC has less impact and a wizard needs all the HP they can get, and get good at maintaining concentration. There are also several feats that are probably better than increasing dex (e.g resiliant con tough, warcaster, lucky). I would expext most level 20 bladesingers have a +2 or +3 on dex.
Dex isn't just defense for bladesinger, it is also their attacking stat so yes IME most will max it out as well as their INT. Sometimes they might even prioritize it over INT because there are a ton of great spells for bladesinger that don't rely on INT : Haste, Mirror Image, Shield, Greater Invisibility, Transformation, Summoning....
Resilient CON is unnecessary since bladesinger adds their INT to their concentration saves. Lucky IME really isn't that good, Tough I have said should be taken as you're 1st level feat as a Variant Human (Or go Hill Dwarf) since you need those hit points most at low levels. The only other feat I'd seriously consider is Warcaster for the cantrip AoO in combo with the Adv on concentration.
Of course this is all assuming you play bladesinger as bladesinger and not as just a generic wizard with a defensive buff - which is what the OP is asking about.
Fair enough, I had actually got into my mind that bladesingers could make weapon attacks with intelligence.
It does make bladesingers quite MAD though. A bladesinger is going to be making a LOT of con saves for concentration and while adding Int helps, they need more than that especially with moderate con. Resilient con helps with con saves more than warcaster from level 13 and form level 9 if you put an odd number intoi con (and they are pretty even 4 levels earlier) and helps with other con saves which are pretty common. I do get the ability to cast spells as an op attack (not just cantrips you can power word kill the boss as he tries to make an escape if you like), while usually I prefer resilient over warcaster unless taking it at level 1 as a vHum / custom linage for bladesingers there are benefits ot either, and a lot depends on how frequently your DM has creatures running away from your wizard.
Fair enough, I had actually got into my mind that bladesingers could make weapon attacks with intelligence.
It does make bladesingers quite MAD though. A bladesinger is going to be making a LOT of con saves for concentration and while adding Int helps, they need more than that especially with moderate con. Resilient con helps with con saves more than warcaster from level 13 and form level 9 if you put an odd number intoi con (and they are pretty even 4 levels earlier) and helps with other con saves which are pretty common. I do get the ability to cast spells as an op attack (not just cantrips you can power word kill the boss as he tries to make an escape if you like), while usually I prefer resilient over warcaster unless taking it at level 1 as a vHum / custom linage for bladesingers there are benefits ot either, and a lot depends on how frequently your DM has creatures running away from your wizard.
I'm willing to bet that, if Bladesinger was released now, it would let you attack with INT on top of everything else. Maybe drop the whole Advantage on Acrobatics in exchange, although that's more just cleaning shop than anything else.
1 level dip in artificer, cleric, or even hexblade warlock can do a lot to shore up defenses with shield and medium armor proficiency.
artificer gives sanctuary that has a DC scaling off Intelligence.
if your willing to use lineages to increase tanking, there are quite a few options. Shifters can use their bonus actions to grant temporary hitpoints along with more AC or prevent attackers from having advantage on your character. Warforged or gives a flat +1 AC along with other features that complement a wizard. Goliath can work well with damage reduction feature. It’s less effective than a shield spell but will likely help ensure slots are available to shield throughout the day against stronger enemies or tougher situations. Shadarkai elf has a non spell teleport bonus action that grants resistance to damage so that could be effective too.
there are likely quite a bit more combinations. While you can definitely be “front line” I would recommend trying to cycle people through out the fights to tank attacks as needed. Making use of the hitpoints of the whole party by spreading damage around is very effective if possible.
a goblin wizard with a bonus action disengage can do this very well without spending slots or features on teleports.
It does make bladesingers quite MAD though. A bladesinger is going to be making a LOT of con saves for concentration
Yes they are MAD, but I disagree about the number of CON saves. Bladesinger is an AC-tank which means they should not be getting hit that often or they will go down and lose their concentration by being unconscious regardless (enemies should be dealing damage equal to one PC's total HP per round for a deadly combat). Yes high CR creatures have "massive" to hit modifiers but those are usually just +16 or so which means with a base AC of 23 + 5 from Shield they have only a 40% chance to hit you, while lower CR minion creatures will have even less chance to hit you.
Fair enough, I had actually got into my mind that bladesingers could make weapon attacks with intelligence.
It does make bladesingers quite MAD though. A bladesinger is going to be making a LOT of con saves for concentration and while adding Int helps, they need more than that especially with moderate con. Resilient con helps with con saves more than warcaster from level 13 and form level 9 if you put an odd number intoi con (and they are pretty even 4 levels earlier) and helps with other con saves which are pretty common. I do get the ability to cast spells as an op attack (not just cantrips you can power word kill the boss as he tries to make an escape if you like), while usually I prefer resilient over warcaster unless taking it at level 1 as a vHum / custom linage for bladesingers there are benefits ot either, and a lot depends on how frequently your DM has creatures running away from your wizard.
I'm willing to bet that, if Bladesinger was released now, it would let you attack with INT on top of everything else. Maybe drop the whole Advantage on Acrobatics in exchange, although that's more just cleaning shop than anything else.
They could have done that as part of the update done to Bladesingers for Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. That they didn't speaks to them wanting to keep attacking with INT an exclusive perk for Armorer and Battle Smith Artificers.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Bladesinging... better AC, use of weapon attacks blended with spells. Order of Scribes... able to switch damage types of close quarter spells like Burning Hands and Thunderwave just to mention a few. School of Abjuration... has the extra defensive layer of the ward. School of Divination... able to portent up to two different rolls during combat, helping allies hit and enemies miss. School of Enchantment... able to lock an enemy down with hypnotic gaze until the party deals with the others or are ready to deal with it. School of Evocation... able to sculpt spells like Burning Hands and Thunderwave to not target allies. School of Illusion... illusions, even the cantrip Minor Illusion can affect the outcome of many fights, even if it's only a momentary distraction. School of Necromancy... using grim harvest in close quarters will give enemies a target other than your allies and it helps keep you alive longer. School of Transmutation... changing an iron weapon into a silver one before the fight means you can get around certain resistances and tempt greedy enemies to try and get their hands on a solid silver weapon. War Magic... higher AC and saving throws help a lot on the front line where they are probably in need more. Blood Magic... rerolling damage of Burning Hands and Thunderwave to possibly get higher results. Chronurgy Magic... maybe going first (or close to it) and having enemies reroll certain attacks to miss, or allies reroll misses and maybe hit now. Graviturgy Magic... having an enemies weight become half or double and the resulting effects from that can greatly influence the outcome of a fight, or even affecting an ally is some beneficial way.
These are some of the best subclasses of wizard that would make a good front-line wizard for a large party. If any others (all) come out in future books I will add those (all) that apply.
Also, if your game allows homebrew... then any and all of those also would make good front-liners.
You basically listed all the wizards, including the ones that are HORRIBLE front liners. The following are the good ones:
Bladesinger
War Wizard
Abjurer
The rest should NOT be front liners. While they have good abilities, particularly chrono and diviners, their abilities work best from the back line.
I had to pare the list down, if there were more wizards then I would have also listed them as front-liners. All you did was pick the obvious ones. The others make excellent front-liners, they can use spell selection in combination with their features.
Maybe traditionally that was the case but not is 5e. Wizards are so strong now that any can easily be front-liners. If all it takes is a few spell choices to shore up AC, hp and the ability to get hit then any wizard can frontline all the live long day.
I think it's easy to argue that a Wizard, with careful spell selection, is capable of surviving and maybe even succeeding as a primarily frontline fighter. But they're not good at it, and prioritizing the ability to survive in the frontline means you'll be playing a severely nerfed Wizard, since you have to spend so many of your resources just to survive, whereas the Wizards who avoid direct combat as best as possible can spend more of their suite of resources to control the battlefield, buff allies, or otherwise influence things in ways that spellcasters excel in.
I got high stat rolls and made a Bladesinger. Started 18 dex, 16 con, 20 Int. Wearing Studded Leather and Bladesong active at L4 he had an AC of 21. Shield spell would bring that to 26 as needed. And with a solid 16 con that's 30HP. Feats was Telekinetic and Resilient: Con.
Then at L5 the real magic happened. Because with the Lorehold background he learned Spirit Guardians. Between resilient: Con and the Bladesong his concentration saves was +11 and practically couldn't lose concentration ever. Round after round action free spirit guardian damage. He could Booming Blade then shove people back 5ft. Or slightly reposition to yank someone else into the Spirit Guardians.
Don't wanna just Booming someone? Rimes Binding to lock a group down and reposition so SG chewed em up. Tasha Mind whip a bbeg while SG mows through them and their minions and they gotta either move to follow you or take an action, but you keep shoving them out of range of people so its gotta be the move. Etc.
It was the single most effective front line character I've ever seen. Ever. It was disgusting.
So I think anyone who says a wizard can't frontline is ... uh, misguided.
I got high stat rolls and made a Bladesinger. Started 18 dex, 16 con, 20 Int. Wearing Studded Leather and Bladesong active at L4 he had an AC of 21. Shield spell would bring that to 26 as needed. And with a solid 16 con that's 30HP. Feats was Telekinetic and Resilient: Con.
Then at L5 the real magic happened. Because with the Lorehold background he learned Spirit Guardians. Between resilient: Con and the Bladesong his concentration saves was +11 and practically couldn't lose concentration ever. Round after round action free spirit guardian damage. He could Booming Blade then shove people back 5ft. Or slightly reposition to yank someone else into the Spirit Guardians.
Don't wanna just Booming someone? Rimes Binding to lock a group down and reposition so SG chewed em up. Tasha Mind whip a bbeg while SG mows through them and their minions and they gotta either move to follow you or take an action, but you keep shoving them out of range of people so its gotta be the move. Etc.
It was the single most effective front line character I've ever seen. Ever. It was disgusting.
So I think anyone who says a wizard can't frontline is ... uh, misguided.
The fact that it took blessed rolls that allowed you to grab feats early while maintaining your casting and attack stats is a point against the concept in the abstract. Lots of MAD builds will perform very well with both abilities and CON starting in the high teens, but that’s not something that can be assumed as a part of baseline assessments.
I got high stat rolls and made a Bladesinger. Started 18 dex, 16 con, 20 Int. Wearing Studded Leather and Bladesong active at L4 he had an AC of 21. Shield spell would bring that to 26 as needed. And with a solid 16 con that's 30HP. Feats was Telekinetic and Resilient: Con.
Then at L5 the real magic happened. Because with the Lorehold background he learned Spirit Guardians. Between resilient: Con and the Bladesong his concentration saves was +11 and practically couldn't lose concentration ever. Round after round action free spirit guardian damage. He could Booming Blade then shove people back 5ft. Or slightly reposition to yank someone else into the Spirit Guardians.
Don't wanna just Booming someone? Rimes Binding to lock a group down and reposition so SG chewed em up. Tasha Mind whip a bbeg while SG mows through them and their minions and they gotta either move to follow you or take an action, but you keep shoving them out of range of people so its gotta be the move. Etc.
It was the single most effective front line character I've ever seen. Ever. It was disgusting.
So I think anyone who says a wizard can't frontline is ... uh, misguided.
The fact that it took blessed rolls that allowed you to grab feats early while maintaining your casting and attack stats is a point against the concept in the abstract. Lots of MAD builds will perform very well with both abilities and CON starting in the high teens, but that’s not something that can be assumed as a part of baseline assessments.
An example of it being done so well it almost breaks the game means... it is bad actually. That don't follow.
I got high stat rolls and made a Bladesinger. Started 18 dex, 16 con, 20 Int. Wearing Studded Leather and Bladesong active at L4 he had an AC of 21. Shield spell would bring that to 26 as needed. And with a solid 16 con that's 30HP. Feats was Telekinetic and Resilient: Con.
Then at L5 the real magic happened. Because with the Lorehold background he learned Spirit Guardians. Between resilient: Con and the Bladesong his concentration saves was +11 and practically couldn't lose concentration ever. Round after round action free spirit guardian damage. He could Booming Blade then shove people back 5ft. Or slightly reposition to yank someone else into the Spirit Guardians.
Don't wanna just Booming someone? Rimes Binding to lock a group down and reposition so SG chewed em up. Tasha Mind whip a bbeg while SG mows through them and their minions and they gotta either move to follow you or take an action, but you keep shoving them out of range of people so its gotta be the move. Etc.
It was the single most effective front line character I've ever seen. Ever. It was disgusting.
So I think anyone who says a wizard can't frontline is ... uh, misguided.
The fact that it took blessed rolls that allowed you to grab feats early while maintaining your casting and attack stats is a point against the concept in the abstract. Lots of MAD builds will perform very well with both abilities and CON starting in the high teens, but that’s not something that can be assumed as a part of baseline assessments.
An example of it being done so well it almost breaks the game means... it is bad actually. I don't follow.
I did not say it was bad, but three blessed rolls at character creation is objectively an outlier, which affects how much weight that particular data point has in an assessment of overall trends.
I did not say it was bad, but three blessed rolls at character creation is objectively an outlier, which affects how much weight that particular data point has in an assessment of overall trends.
What are you talking about? This character wouldn't have been a better frontliner with those rolls as a fighter. They were as effective as they were specifically by being a wizard with careful spell and feat selection. Aka the thing we're talking about.
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Wizards can do just about anything, it's true. But they have limited resources to work with regardless of their level, which means that there's no point where they can do everything.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yes, but that's why Bladesinger is designed around using cantrips & weapon attacks vs hostiles. There are almost no wizard spells that gain anything from being cast while you are in the frontline so you either stand at the back doing wizards stuff, or you used your spells for defense and use weapon attacks/cantrips, or you throw up a battlefield control spell and then pick off whomever is left.
Dex isn't just defense for bladesinger, it is also their attacking stat so yes IME most will max it out as well as their INT. Sometimes they might even prioritize it over INT because there are a ton of great spells for bladesinger that don't rely on INT : Haste, Mirror Image, Shield, Greater Invisibility, Transformation, Summoning....
Resilient CON is unnecessary since bladesinger adds their INT to their concentration saves. Lucky IME really isn't that good, Tough I have said should be taken as you're 1st level feat as a Variant Human (Or go Hill Dwarf) since you need those hit points most at low levels. The only other feat I'd seriously consider is Warcaster for the cantrip AoO in combo with the Adv on concentration.
Of course this is all assuming you play bladesinger as bladesinger and not as just a generic wizard with a defensive buff - which is what the OP is asking about.
Fair enough, I had actually got into my mind that bladesingers could make weapon attacks with intelligence.
It does make bladesingers quite MAD though. A bladesinger is going to be making a LOT of con saves for concentration and while adding Int helps, they need more than that especially with moderate con. Resilient con helps with con saves more than warcaster from level 13 and form level 9 if you put an odd number intoi con (and they are pretty even 4 levels earlier) and helps with other con saves which are pretty common. I do get the ability to cast spells as an op attack (not just cantrips you can power word kill the boss as he tries to make an escape if you like), while usually I prefer resilient over warcaster unless taking it at level 1 as a vHum / custom linage for bladesingers there are benefits ot either, and a lot depends on how frequently your DM has creatures running away from your wizard.
I'm willing to bet that, if Bladesinger was released now, it would let you attack with INT on top of everything else. Maybe drop the whole Advantage on Acrobatics in exchange, although that's more just cleaning shop than anything else.
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1 level dip in artificer, cleric, or even hexblade warlock can do a lot to shore up defenses with shield and medium armor proficiency.
artificer gives sanctuary that has a DC scaling off Intelligence.
if your willing to use lineages to increase tanking, there are quite a few options.
Shifters can use their bonus actions to grant temporary hitpoints along with more AC or prevent attackers from having advantage on your character.
Warforged or gives a flat +1 AC along with other features that complement a wizard.
Goliath can work well with damage reduction feature. It’s less effective than a shield spell but will likely help ensure slots are available to shield throughout the day against stronger enemies or tougher situations.
Shadarkai elf has a non spell teleport bonus action that grants resistance to damage so that could be effective too.
there are likely quite a bit more combinations. While you can definitely be “front line” I would recommend trying to cycle people through out the fights to tank attacks as needed. Making use of the hitpoints of the whole party by spreading damage around is very effective if possible.
a goblin wizard with a bonus action disengage can do this very well without spending slots or features on teleports.
Yes they are MAD, but I disagree about the number of CON saves. Bladesinger is an AC-tank which means they should not be getting hit that often or they will go down and lose their concentration by being unconscious regardless (enemies should be dealing damage equal to one PC's total HP per round for a deadly combat). Yes high CR creatures have "massive" to hit modifiers but those are usually just +16 or so which means with a base AC of 23 + 5 from Shield they have only a 40% chance to hit you, while lower CR minion creatures will have even less chance to hit you.
They could have done that as part of the update done to Bladesingers for Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. That they didn't speaks to them wanting to keep attacking with INT an exclusive perk for Armorer and Battle Smith Artificers.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You basically listed all the wizards, including the ones that are HORRIBLE front liners. The following are the good ones:
Bladesinger
War Wizard
Abjurer
The rest should NOT be front liners. While they have good abilities, particularly chrono and diviners, their abilities work best from the back line.
I had to pare the list down, if there were more wizards then I would have also listed them as front-liners. All you did was pick the obvious ones. The others make excellent front-liners, they can use spell selection in combination with their features.
You're using a definition of "front line" that is different from everyone else's.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
We all are, but the basic definition stays the same... front line is front line.
Which wizards, barring possibly bladesinger, are not suited for by any valid interpretation of that basic definition.
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Maybe traditionally that was the case but not is 5e. Wizards are so strong now that any can easily be front-liners. If all it takes is a few spell choices to shore up AC, hp and the ability to get hit then any wizard can frontline all the live long day.
Spells run out real quick. Martial's armour doesn't.
Wizards are not front-liners.
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I think it's easy to argue that a Wizard, with careful spell selection, is capable of surviving and maybe even succeeding as a primarily frontline fighter. But they're not good at it, and prioritizing the ability to survive in the frontline means you'll be playing a severely nerfed Wizard, since you have to spend so many of your resources just to survive, whereas the Wizards who avoid direct combat as best as possible can spend more of their suite of resources to control the battlefield, buff allies, or otherwise influence things in ways that spellcasters excel in.
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I got high stat rolls and made a Bladesinger. Started 18 dex, 16 con, 20 Int. Wearing Studded Leather and Bladesong active at L4 he had an AC of 21. Shield spell would bring that to 26 as needed. And with a solid 16 con that's 30HP. Feats was Telekinetic and Resilient: Con.
Then at L5 the real magic happened. Because with the Lorehold background he learned Spirit Guardians. Between resilient: Con and the Bladesong his concentration saves was +11 and practically couldn't lose concentration ever. Round after round action free spirit guardian damage. He could Booming Blade then shove people back 5ft. Or slightly reposition to yank someone else into the Spirit Guardians.
Don't wanna just Booming someone? Rimes Binding to lock a group down and reposition so SG chewed em up. Tasha Mind whip a bbeg while SG mows through them and their minions and they gotta either move to follow you or take an action, but you keep shoving them out of range of people so its gotta be the move. Etc.
It was the single most effective front line character I've ever seen. Ever. It was disgusting.
So I think anyone who says a wizard can't frontline is ... uh, misguided.
I got quotes!
The fact that it took blessed rolls that allowed you to grab feats early while maintaining your casting and attack stats is a point against the concept in the abstract. Lots of MAD builds will perform very well with both abilities and CON starting in the high teens, but that’s not something that can be assumed as a part of baseline assessments.
An example of it being done so well it almost breaks the game means... it is bad actually. That don't follow.
I got quotes!
I did not say it was bad, but three blessed rolls at character creation is objectively an outlier, which affects how much weight that particular data point has in an assessment of overall trends.
What are you talking about? This character wouldn't have been a better frontliner with those rolls as a fighter. They were as effective as they were specifically by being a wizard with careful spell and feat selection. Aka the thing we're talking about.
I got quotes!