Bladesinger Fighter for 5.5e and no legacy content (i.e. tashas)

I was going to build a bladesinger and was looking to optimize it. It seems to me that it might be optimal to get first level as a fighter before moving on to bladesinging. My thought was:

• Human: magic initiate (druid) - int
• Criminal: alert; +2 int/+1 dex
• Fighter 1: Two-Weapon Fighting; Quarterstaff, Scimitar, Shortsword
• Wizard - Bladesinger 4: Dual Wielder

The build is pretty standard until character level 7, when they unlock bladesinger 6 for extra attack. At this point, they unlock the true power of their attack sequence:

• Equipped: Quarterstaff & Scimitar
• Attack Action:
  • attack with scimitar (nick)
  • sheath scimitar and draw shortsword (dual wielder bonus interactions on attack)
  • nick attack with shortsword (vex)
  • extra attack - cast True Strike and attack with quarterstaff (topple)
  • sheath shortsword and draw scimitar (dual wielder bonus interactions on attack)
• Bonus Action:
  • cast Shillelagh if not active, or
  • use dual wielder bonus attack with quarterstaff (topple again if needed)

That's four attacks per round, two of which do force damage, one of which gets a good chunk of extra radiant damage. Plus at character level 8, bladesinger will get access to conjure minor elementals, so up to 8d8 additional damage every round. I'd take War Caster at bladesinger 8, but past that I haven't figured out what feats to go for. For example, I might do cold caster and elemental adept (cold)  to max out my int, pierce cold resistance, and hurt a target's saving throws 1/round when attacking with cold damage from conjure minor elementals.

Anyone have thoughts? 

Make sure your dm is OK with you casting with your hands full all the time, should be OK as a bladesigner but check.

I would also ask about storing and drawing weapon every turn, legal raw but not ever dm is going to love it.

Would also check that dm is OK with the interaction of nick and dual wielder giving you two extra attacks, is how it works raw but worth discussing.

14th level ability is redundant with dual welder but pretty late.

You might want to consider war caster, you have proficiency and int added to concentration so might be enough but you are taking lots of hits and losing cme sucks.

Playing a single class blade singer using Shillelagh and blade song can jam your bonus action, it is not a problem but is something to be aware of.

I am enjoying the character and hope you do also.

Why Shillelagh?

The marginal damage increase you get out of it is less than the marginal damage increase you get by attacking again with your quarterstaff for a round.

Also, unless you really love topple (which I suppose you do), I'm not convinced that you're gaining much with all the weapon swapping that you don't get from just attacking more with a vex weapon.

Also, some of the rules interpretations you're using to get this to work are iffy at best: 

Quote from Nebuul >>

• Attack Action:
  • attack with scimitar (nick)
  • sheath scimitar and draw shortsword (dual wielder bonus interactions on attack)
  • nick attack with shortsword (vex)
  • extra attack - cast True Strike and attack with quarterstaff (topple)
  • sheath shortsword and draw scimitar (dual wielder bonus interactions on attack)

 Most people's interpretation of DW is that you can draw two or stow two, but not draw and stow. If your DM disagrees, more power to you, but they may well not.

Whether you get to draw or stow on the True Strike is an interesting question:

• There's a line of argument that you're not making an attack there as part of your attack action -- you're casting a spell, and the fact that the spell involves a weapon attack doesn't matter; the spell creates separation between the attack and the action
• There's another line that the weapon attack made during the attack action is sufficient to make it part of the attack action, even though there's a spell detaching it from the standard attack action
• There's a third line that would let you draw or stow even if you cast Fire Bolt, on the grounds that it's still consuming one of your attacks

Once again, your DM will determine the answer. Neither of these points has a RAW answer, though the draw/stow one is approximately 95% RAW against you.

Quote from jl8e >>

Why Shillelagh?

The marginal damage increase you get out of it is less than the marginal damage increase you get by attacking again with your quarterstaff for a round.

 

 Shillelagh is great. At level 5, you're looking at ~2 damage more per swing. At higher levels, that gets as high as ~4 damage per swing. Not only that, but it gives you the option of doing force damage. What's not to love? With 2 attacks per round, it's 8 damage per round bonus over just using a d6 weapon, or at least a couple damage higher than when using a d8 weapon like rapier.

 Most people's interpretation of DW is that you can draw two or stow two, but not draw and stow. If your DM disagrees, more power to you, but they may well not.

Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.

I guess a person could interpret it as having to do the same operation to both weapons. If that's the case, though, it's not a big deal. You just have to adjust the attacks like so:

• Attack Action Attack 1: Shortsword Attack (stow)
• Attack Action Attack 2: True Strike Quarterstaff (draw scimitar) (which, btw, "you make one attack with the weapon" -- there's no ambiguity with True Strike and weapon draw/stow)
• scimitar extra nick attack (stow scimitar)
• Bonus Action Attack: quarterstaff attack (draw shortsword)

Problem solved. This actually works better. Nick, in 5.5e, no longer has language that forces the nick weapon to be in one's hand when starting the attack action. So this way, you trigger vex and go for the fast prone condition, then the rest of the attacks are all at advantage.

Quote from sbauer9>>

Make sure your dm is OK with you casting with your hands full all the time, should be OK as a bladesigner but check.

14th level ability is redundant with dual welder but pretty late.

You might want to consider war caster, you have proficiency and int added to concentration so might be enough but you are taking lots of hits and losing cme sucks.

Playing a single class blade singer using Shillelagh and blade song can jam your bonus action, it is not a problem but is something to be aware of.

I am enjoying the character and hope you do also.

 I'm glad you're having a good time with it! I hope I can develop this guy out over a nice, long campaign. There's something cool about a fighting wizard swapping weapons around. It's like a magical whirlwind flurry or something.

If your plan is to play this character is to use that attack sequence as your go-to combat style then you'd be much better off going Eldritch Knight rather than bladesigner as you would unlock that attack sequence at the same level (7) but would have had Extra Attack since level 5, and would have an extra ASI allowing you to have increased your INT to +4 by then instead of the +3 your proposed build will have. Plus you could have STR as your secondary stat giving you 18 AC through heavy armour, rather than AC of 16 you'd have with Studded Leather and +3 DEX.

• Equipped: Quarterstaff & Scimitar
• Attack Action:
  • attack with scimitar (nick)
  • sheath scimitar and draw shortsword (dual wielder bonus interactions on attack)
  • nick attack with shortsword (vex)
  • extra attack - cast True Strike and attack with quarterstaff (topple)
  • sheath shortsword and draw scimitar (dual wielder bonus interactions on attack)
• Bonus Action:
  • cast Shillelagh if not active, or
  • use dual wielder bonus attack with quarterstaff (topple again if needed)

This rotation doesn't actually work. You must make the "Nick" attack with your Nick weapon -> i.e. the Scimitar. And it must happen after making an attack with a different Light weapon.

So you'd need to start by holding a Shortsword + Quarterstaff.

1. Shortsword (Vex + Light) - Attack Action 1
2. True Strike with Shortsword (Vex + Light) - Attack Action 2 -> Sheath Shortsword
3. Free Interact Action -> draw Scimitar
4. Scimitar (Nick) - Nick Attack
5. Quarterstaff -> BA attack if BA is available.

However, I don't know why you want to carry around a Quarterstaff and use some BAs for Shillelagh for 1 attack per turn. 

Quote from Agilemind >>

If your plan is to play this character is to use that attack sequence as your go-to combat style then you'd be much better off going Eldritch Knight rather than bladesigner as you would unlock that attack sequence at the same level (7) but would have had Extra Attack since level 5, and would have an extra ASI allowing you to have increased your INT to +4 by then instead of the +3 your proposed build will have. Plus you could have STR as your secondary stat giving you 18 AC through heavy armour, rather than AC of 16 you'd have with Studded Leather and +3 DEX.

 Actually, blade singers cannot wear any armor. I would be using mage armor along with the bladesinger bonuses. If I don armor or use a shield, blade song ends instantly. Being a blade singer gives me access to the full nine levels of wizard spells. Also I don't want to be an eldritch knight, i want to be a bladesinger 😁

Quote from Agilemind >>

• You must make the "Nick" attack with your Nick weapon -> i.e. the Scimitar.

That is not even close to a universally accepted interpretation

Quote from Agilemind>>

This rotation doesn't actually work. You must make the "Nick" attack with your Nick weapon -> i.e. the Scimitar. And it must happen after making an attack with a different Light weapon.

Quote from Nebuul>>

Quote from jl8e>>

Why Shillelagh?

The marginal damage increase you get out of it is less than the marginal damage increase you get by attacking again with your quarterstaff for a round.

 Shillelagh is great. At level 5, you're looking at ~2 damage more per swing. At higher levels, that gets as high as ~4 damage per swing. Not only that, but it gives you the option of doing force damage. What's not to love?

 

• Attack Action Attack 2: True Strike Quarterstaff (draw scimitar) (which, btw, "you make one attack with the weapon" -- there's no ambiguity with True Strike and weapon draw/stow)

 Don't know what you're quoting here. The relevant text from the entry in the glossary is:

You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action.

And there are people on here who will fight you on what gets to be part of the attack action.

Even I, who have a much more permissive stance on rules interpretation than many here, am unsure you're not way out over your skis on this one. (Mostly because we're talking about replacement abilities, which have very little actual text to work with when understanding how they work in the rules model.)

Quote from jl8e>>

Force damage is mostly irrelevant, especially in 5.5 -- resistance to bludgeoning isn't that common, and you're a wizard, so you have better options when it comes up. (Which adds even more dubiousness to your spell choice. Why Shillelagh and not Shadow Blade or some other magical weapon spell.)

Quote from Nebuul >>

I was going to build a bladesinger and was looking to optimize it. It seems to me that it might be optimal to get first level as a fighter before moving on to bladesinging. My thought was:

• Human: magic initiate (druid) - int
• Criminal: alert; +2 int/+1 dex
• Fighter 1: Two-Weapon Fighting; Quarterstaff, Scimitar, Shortsword
• Wizard - Bladesinger 4: Dual Wielder

The build is pretty standard until character level 7, when they unlock bladesinger 6 for extra attack. At this point, they unlock the true power of their attack sequence:

• Equipped: Quarterstaff & Scimitar
• Attack Action:
  • attack with scimitar (nick)
  • sheath scimitar and draw shortsword (dual wielder bonus interactions on attack)
  • nick attack with shortsword (vex)
  • extra attack - cast True Strike and attack with quarterstaff (topple)
  • sheath shortsword and draw scimitar (dual wielder bonus interactions on attack)
• Bonus Action:
  • cast Shillelagh if not active, or
  • use dual wielder bonus attack with quarterstaff (topple again if needed)

That's four attacks per round, two of which do force damage, one of which gets a good chunk of extra radiant damage. Plus at character level 8, bladesinger will get access to conjure minor elementals, so up to 8d8 additional damage every round. I'd take War Caster at bladesinger 8, but past that I haven't figured out what feats to go for. For example, I might do cold caster and elemental adept (cold)  to max out my int, pierce cold resistance, and hurt a target's saving throws 1/round when attacking with cold damage from conjure minor elementals.

Anyone have thoughts? 

 Get some good ability score improvements.

I could use a club, but then I lose topple, which is pretty nice since I'm on top of people already.

You might be but what about the rest of your party? 

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

• You must make the "Nick" attack with your Nick weapon -> i.e. the Scimitar.

 

That is not even close to a universally accepted interpretation

 Good luck finding a DM that allows a Weapon Mastery property to apply to an attack made with a different weapon that does not have that property, or to have something with a condition occur before that condition is fulfilled. 

Even if the rules allowed this build to work. It still isn't that good; you'd be better off taking valor bard/warlock1/fighter2 and making a bunch of attacks with Eldritch Blast.

And even that build isn't universally accepted. I've played with tables that don't even allow abilities outside of the core rules. It still was fun. You don't need to make a powerful character to have fun. 

(This is the truth for me, it probably is the truth for you to.)

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

• You must make the "Nick" attack with your Nick weapon -> i.e. the Scimitar.

 

That is not even close to a universally accepted interpretation

 Good luck finding a DM that allows a Weapon Mastery property to apply to an attack made with a different weapon that does not have that property, or to have something with a condition occur before that condition is fulfilled. 

 I believe "Nick must be used on the enabling attack" is, at least here, the plurality view over "use nick on the light extra attack" or "use nick on one of the two". At least some of those people are likely DMs, and they are unlikely to be the only ones.

I happen to agree with you, but it is not RAW, or even clear. 

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

• You must make the "Nick" attack with your Nick weapon -> i.e. the Scimitar.

 

That is not even close to a universally accepted interpretation

 Good luck finding a DM that allows a Weapon Mastery property to apply to an attack made with a different weapon that does not have that property, or to have something with a condition occur before that condition is fulfilled. 

I don't have to look far - every DM I play with where it's come up, including myself, rules it simply as a Nick weapon must be used as part of the sequence to trigger the Nick attack, just as a Light weapon must be used as part of the sequence to trigger the extra Light attack

Without more specific language on how it's supposed to work (which WOTC's track record suggests we might not ever get, because they generally like tables to make their own calls), it's simply not worth the headache of keeping track on which attack was the "Nick" attack versus the triggering attack versus the whatever other attack(s) you're making, even if I thought that was RAW (which I very much do not)

Quote from Nebuul >>

 

Anyone have thoughts? 

 Such character at my table couldn't pull this off for many reasons, Quick Draw can draw or stow, not both, Extra Attack of the Light Property is made with Nick weapon,  Mistletoe requires a hand free to access etc.

What could be done while equipped with a Quarterstaff & Shortsword is;

• Attack with Shortsword and unequip it [Attack Action]
• Equip Scimitar [Free Object Interaction]
• Attack with Scimitar and unequip it [Nick Mastery]
• Cast True Strike and attack with Quaterstaff [Extra Attack]
• Cast Shillelagh OR Attack with Quarterstaff [Bonus Action]

Unless I am missing something a Bladesinger must fight with only one weapn and no shield or the Blade Dance will not work? Was this changed in 2024?

Quote from Leaf_Onwind >>

Unless I am missing something a Bladesinger must fight with only one weapn and no shield or the Blade Dance will not work? Was this changed in 2024?

Bladesong only works with one-handed weapons, but there's nothing in either version saying you can't use two one-handed weapons.

Neither version of the Bladesinger is allowed to use a shield while Bladesinging, but I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that.