Hello everyone, so first let me set the scene a little. Our characters are level 6 and I've dueled my groups paladin twice now in some fun little pvp sessions that are outside of our main campaign, to help us get familiar with each others capabilities really, and failed this match up miserably both times. I think I've figured out way, but let me see if I'm missing something. Everyone should also know that while no homebrew rules have been added for my monk, some have been for the Paladin which I'll get to. Here has been my setup as a Monk:
Shifter Wildhunt Monk lvl 6, AC 15, HP 48, Str +1, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +0, Wis +2, Chr -1, speed 45ft, 10x Darts (+6 hit, 1d4+3), Magic Spear (+7 hit, 1d6+4/1d8+4), Magical unarmed strikes (+7 hit, 1d6+4). I have two attacks per turn w/ my bonus. 6 Ki points. No other useful items.
Magic Initiate feat with cantrips Frostbite/Thunderclap with the spell of Thunderwave. Note: I've also tried this fight with the Mobile feat (giving up Magic Initiate) to try it another way, ended up worse with the Mobile feat (I'll get to my theory why).
Vs.
Bronze Dragonborne Paladin lvl 6, AC 20 (is magic armor that nullifies any critical hit on Paladin), HP 63, Str +3, Dex +0, Con +1, Int +1, Wis +0, Chr +2, speed 30ft, Breath weapon (30ft, 3d6, DC 12), Magic Sword (+6 hit, 1d8+4), Unarmed strike (+6 hit, 4dmg), 5x Javelin (+6 hit, 1d6+3, 30/120 range), has Channel Divinity: Abjure Enemy (DC 13), Lay on Hands (30HP pool), Channel Divinity Vow of Enmity, Shield Master Shove, Shield Master Evasion, has a Wand of Healing (5x Cure Wounds charges), Spells Bane/Bless/Command/Hunter's Mark/Shield of Faith/Branding Smite/Hold Person/Misty Step, Divine Smite (2d8 plus 1d8 per spell slot used above 1st, has 2x 2nd lvl, 4x 1st lvl slots). Player uses Command, Hold Person, Misty Step, and of course Divine Smite the most against me.
Paladin's shield homebrew rule: On one attack per turn against the Paladin that hits (Paladin can choose which attack to use this on after knowing if the attack hits or not), attacker does 10dmg or less : Paladin must roll 10 or higher to block all damage, 10-15dmg : Paladin must roll 15 or higher to block all damage, 16 dmg or more : Paladin must roll 20 to block all damage.
The effects I've seen within the fights of Monk vs Paladin
-Paladin consistently knocks my Monk prone, taking half his speed away, meaning I can almost never get away.
-Stunning Strike has never ever landed (on this Paladin or in normal campaign combat. Not surprising as it's DC is DC 13 CON). So that tactic has been useless.
-Dodge mostly works until I run out of Ki points.
-Range damage is useless as the shield always soaks it up the damage despite whichever feat I had but Mobile feat was worse because at least Magic damage from spells did a tiny bit of damage to the Paladin.
-The maps we use are only about 50ft by 50ft, and we can't leave that area, so Mobile feat never really let me get far enough away, assuming I wasn't knocked prone or held by the Hold Person spell.
It seems with these homebrew rules, and the awesome armor/weapon/shield tricks the DM has given the Paladin that I stand no chance no matter what I do. That even if I can get through the AC, I have to roll nearly max damage (and can't crit) to even scratch the Paladin. And if by some miracle Stunning Strike lands, I still have to roll above the AC and can only do this 6 times before I'm spent.
Anybody see a way I could maybe ever get the upper hand in this pvp fight? Or have the cards been stacked too high against me? Please don't roast me too much as I'm still a fairly new DnDer.
It seems with these homebrew rules, and the awesome armor/weapon/shield tricks the DM has given the Paladin that I stand no chance no matter what I do. That even if I can get through the AC, I have to roll nearly max damage (and can't crit) to even scratch the Paladin. And if by some miracle Stunning Strike lands, I still have to roll above the AC and can only do this 6 times before I'm spent.
I think you answered your own question. Even without homebrew shield rules and a 2d8+4 1 hand sword and a healing wand, paladins have high hp and AC with great burst damage for short fights. You aren't on anywhere near the same level as this paladin going by the information you provided.
Paladins don't get CON as a save proficiency, so they should still need to roll an 11 or 12 to save. All you need to land is one stunning strike and you'll be well ahead. Also, did I miss where you said what kind of Monk subclass you are? That would be helpful information.
Considering how 5e's bounded accuracy works, shield already seems like they have great value. I could see reducing damage by something like 3, but 10 ?!
What is the origin of this houserule ? It doesn't even take a reaction or anything, just having a shield gives you basically 10hp/round ?
Homebrew rules for the Paladin: can use their Shield Master Shove as bonus action to shove 5ft OR to knock opponent prone, Str contest to succeed, no penalty for a fail.
Paladin's shield homebrew rule: On one attack per turn against the Paladin that hits (Paladin can choose), the first 10dmg is soaked up by the shield, next 10dmg is halved (this is different than the original homebrew rule of: attacker does 10dmg or less : Paladin must roll 10 or higher to block, 15 dmg or less : Paladin must roll 15 or higher to block, 16 dmg or more : Paladin must roll 20)
What is the homebrew part for the first rule? Shove has always been able to shove 5 feet or shove prone. Are you not allowed to contest the paladin's Athletics with your Acrobatics?
The second rule is absurdly overpowered. No one is going to roast you, but we might roast your DM for this rule.
The small battlefield doesn't even let you take advantage of your superior mobility and the paladin's traditional weakness to ranged combat. If the battlefield were bigger, I think you could win with a short bow. It would take a long time because the first hit every turn would do nothing and the second would deal 5 less damage (if I'm understanding the rule correctly) maybe dealing nothing. Bring a lot of arrows.
The paladin should only have a +3 on Con saves vs your ki save of 13. If you attempt a stunning strike with both attacks on your first turn, you should, on average, land one stunning strike (assuming both attacks hit). If you don't land a stunning strike in the first two attacks, I think I would flurry and try again. I suggest you spend the following turn removing the stunned paladin's shield (action) and stowing it in your pack (free action?) instead of attacking. That removes the biggest obstacle and even if the paladin gets the shield back, it still requires a whole action to put it on.
I would also point out that the paladin seems to have rolled exceedingly well on their HP to have 61HP at lv 6. This would break down like this:
10 HP at lv1 for their class.
Level 6 with 12 constitution -> 6HP.
Then 5d10 for the remainder, which is 45HP, which comes out at an average roll of 9 on their d10.
On the other hand, your monk with 14 con has:
8HP at lv1 for their class
Level 6 with 14 constitution -> 12HP
Then 5d8 for the remainder, which is 28, which comes out at an average roll of 5.6, slightly over the average of 4.5. My guess is your DM has a rule of "roll, and take the average if you roll below" or something ?
But you're starting at a disadvantage because of the arena, disadvantage from what seems to be is a ludicrous houserule that turns the paladin into a litteral tank, and disadvantage on HP. And... You just don't have much in the way of advantages. If the shield thing at least took their reaction, you could try playing with your speed, but that's about it.
If the Paladin gets a super awesome shield bonus as a houserule, you should get something comparable to match. Perhaps carrion crawler-equivalent poison for your darts (1d4+2 and paralysis, DC 13): even if the shield soaks the damage from the dart, the poison should still have a chance. Or a Cloak of Displacement to augment your lower AC plus a houserule that allowed you to attack normally with reach weapons.
Paladins don't get CON as a save proficiency, so they should still need to roll an 11 or 12 to save. All you need to land is one stunning strike and you'll be well ahead. Also, did I miss where you said what kind of Monk subclass you are? That would be helpful information.
I should have stated our subclasses. I’ve fixed this in the original post but I’ll state it here as well. My monk is of the Way of the Open Hand and the paladin is an Oath of Vengeance paladin. But this Paladin has Aura of Protection so they get +2 to all saving throws, so they have a +3 CON saving throw.
Considering how 5e's bounded accuracy works, shield already seems like they have great value. I could see reducing damage by something like 3, but 10 ?!
What is the origin of this houserule ? It doesn't even take a reaction or anything, just having a shield gives you basically 10hp/round ?
This blocking home rule does require the paladin’s reaction. So yes they get it every round, and yeah basically 10hp every round from what I gather. As for its origin, I was guessing 3.5e since the DM use to play a lot of that, but he's been playing for like 40 years so he's done all the versions.
What is the homebrew part for the first rule? Shove has always been able to shove 5 feet or shove prone. Are you not allowed to contest the paladin's Athletics with your Acrobatics?
I apologize for my mistake on the Shove attributes, I was looking at the Paladin’s notes on their abilities when I wrote some of my original post, and I was looking at Shield Master Shove I saw “within 5ft” and was thinking that meant they could only push 5ft (but now that it’s been pointed out it makes sense that this always allowed for push OR knock prone). I contested with the DM that I should be able to use my acrobatics, which is +6, to combat the paladin’s +6 athletics, but the DM said no (I also didn’t know that the rules say I can, and with our DM if I point out that the rules allow it I might be allowed too), instead the DM said is a straight strength vs strength so it’s always been my +1 vs the paladin’s +3. See below for my comment about Stunning Strike, being mobile.
I would also point out that the paladin seems to have rolled exceedingly well on their HP to have 61HP at lv 6. This would break down like this:
10 HP at lv1 for their class.
Level 6 with 12 constitution -> 6HP.
Then 5d10 for the remainder, which is 45HP, which comes out at an average roll of 9 on their d10.
On the other hand, your monk with 14 con has:
8HP at lv1 for their class
Level 6 with 14 constitution -> 12HP
Then 5d8 for the remainder, which is 28, which comes out at an average roll of 5.6, slightly over the average of 4.5. My guess is your DM has a rule of "roll, and take the average if you roll below" or something ?
But you're starting at a disadvantage because of the arena, disadvantage from what seems to be is a ludicrous houserule that turns the paladin into a litteral tank, and disadvantage on HP. And... You just don't have much in the way of advantages. If the shield thing at least took their reaction, you could try playing with your speed, but that's about it.
Your comment about HP is correct, the DM makes us re-roll leveling HP rolls that are low (we re-roll a 1, 2, or 3). And I wasn’t correct about the Paladin’s HP, they at lvl 7 now have 71HP and I know they rolled a 7 when we hit lvl 7, which means that the paladin had 63HP not 61 as I stated in my original post. I never did the math before, which if you subtract the 6HP given by the +1 CON modifier and divide by 6 means the paladin would have to of rolled an average of 9.3, so I’m guessing the Paladin screwed up somewhere by accident and I doubt anyone would complain to much at getting this corrected. See below for my question about playing with speed.
As for Stunning Strike, since the paladin gets +2 to all saving throws making their CON save +3, and my Stunning Strike’s DC is 13, on average the paladin will make just over 50% of those throws. Although I have terrible luck with Stunning Strike, or anything requiring a DC from my Ki and nothing has ever worked with any creature, which is why I tend to favor Dodge. But even if I stun the paladin, I only have a 25% to hit above that 20AC, which means I have to potentially spend 3-4 Ki points for just one Stunning Strike, and even then the max damage I could do is 30 (and that’s if I do Flurry of Blows and land max damage on each and every strike hitting above the 30HP, which I’d think isn’t a realistic hope).
Also, the DM has ruled that it is highly impractical for me to try and grapple (or take away from a stunned paladin) the paladin’s shield as it is strapped to their arm, and even if I did manage it that I can only either weild it at disadvantage or drop it on the grown (it’s too big/heavy to strap to my back quickly, thus it’d take several rounds of actions).
So back to my original question of how could I fight a Paladin with this build in the type of arena’s we’ve been fighting in. If I could convince the DM to go back to the original homebrew rule concerning her shield (where she must roll to block, and that blocking die number is determined by different damage gates), would I stand a chance? What if I took a different feat?
To my knowledge the homebrew shield block rule does take the paladin’s reaction, so how could I play with my speed? How does that help me get past a reaction that will always block my melee/ranged strikes?
Please NOTE: I mis-spoke before when I had their weapon at 2d8, it's actually only 1d8, I was thinking Divine Smite was only 1d8 when it's 2d8 (at 1st lvl) and the weapon is only 1d8.
Even with no homebrew, monk vs paladin is a difficult fight that would usually require the monk to kite as much as possible.
The homebrew shield absorption rule, homebrew legendary longsword, and homebrew wand of cure wounds just makes this fight impossible for you (and really just makes the paladin OP in encounters too).
You can hold an object without weilding it. So you can hold the shield without disadvantage (no bonus to AC either). If you grapple and shove the paladin prone, you will have advantage on attacks, but both those actions will use your athletics mod, so probably not helpful. Remind the DM that shove can be contested with you acrobatics per the rules, but if it is still a problem the athlete feat lets you get up for only 5 movement.
With flurry of blows, open hand monks can knock targets prone requiring a failed DEX save. Then your attacks have advantage for rest of round.
If the shield thing takes their reaction, that means you can attack and move away, since they won't have a reaction available for their attack of opportunity. Then it's a matter of being able to move around the small arena without letting them catch up to you.
If the shield thing takes their reaction, that means you can attack and move away, since they won't have a reaction available for their attack of opportunity. Then it's a matter of being able to move around the small arena without letting them catch up to you.
Yes but with the Mobile feat they can't take that Opportunity Attack anyway when I move away as long as I attack them. Of course your comment becomes a lot more valuable with other feats. Unless I'm still not following your suggestion, which is possible since I'm newer to DnD like I mentioned before.
Also, I just want to thank everyone for all their helpful comments, suggestions, and opinions so far. It definitely makes me feel a little better that I'm just not failing horribly as a Monk.
You can hold an object without weilding it. So you can hold the shield without disadvantage (no bonus to AC either). If you grapple and shove the paladin prone, you will have advantage on attacks, but both those actions will use your athletics mod, so probably not helpful. Remind the DM that shove can be contested with you acrobatics per the rules, but if it is still a problem the athlete feat lets you get up for only 5 movement.
With flurry of blows, open hand monks can knock targets prone requiring a failed DEX save. Then your attacks have advantage for rest of round.
I would still have to Grapple the shield away which the DM has said I pretty much can't do, and even if I did they can potentially grapple it back and would then simply sacrifice some of their movement to put it back on (not expending their action according to a prior DM ruling that applies to everyone). The idea of knocking them prone is a good one, since that would bring my hit % to just above the paladin's at 50% to hit the paladin (since I'd have advantage). While this would require me to still have to land a hit it would make it so my Ki points don't get wasted on things that don't work as well, but the Paladin still has a +2 to Dex saves so it's only +1 better than Stunning Strike, but that's still +1 that I didn't think of.
Yeah, that DM is clearly over buffing shields, and they don't need it.
At this point, you could take away the shield's +2 AC and it still be almost as worthwhile as without house rules (to prevent 10-15 damage every turn and not even take an action to don or doff).
Do non-shield bearers get any buffs? Maybe a bonus to hit, move speed, or free interaction?
Your DM has homebrew loaded the Paladin to the point of OP in direct fights and if he has not made any houserules to buff other martial classes then he is treating the rest of you unfairly. Either the Paladin his pet player or he's just fanboying the sword and board loadout for some reason.
Especially not allowing you to use Acrobatics against shoves is just stupid. It nerfs all DEX builds, so unless you get something in return for being nerfed you should complain.
Yeah, that DM is clearly over buffing shields, and they don't need it.
At this point, you could take away the shield's +2 AC and it still be almost as worthwhile as without house rules (to prevent 10-15 damage every turn and not even take an action to don or doff).
Do non-shield bearers get any buffs? Maybe a bonus to hit, move speed, or free interaction?
No they don't, however it turns out the Paladin was using the original house rule and I didn't notice. So they rolled over a 10 meaning they blocked my damage which was less than 10 that attack. If an attack does between 10-15 damage the paladin has to roll above a 15 to block all damage, and if the damage is above 16 the paladin has to roll a 20 to block all damage. However the paladin can choose to use this reaction after they see if the attack is going to actually hit them or not. I've edited the original post to reflect this.
Your DM has homebrew loaded the Paladin to the point of OP in direct fights and if he has not made any houserules to buff other martial classes then he is treating the rest of you unfairly. Either the Paladin his pet player or he's just fanboying the sword and board loadout for some reason.
Especially not allowing you to use Acrobatics against shoves is just stupid. It nerfs all DEX builds, so unless you get something in return for being nerfed you should complain.
Please see above about the shield rule. As for not being able to use Acrobatics, I think that is the DM forgetting the particulars of the Shove feature, and might let me if I show them the PHB, but then again maybe not.
Yeah, that DM is clearly over buffing shields, and they don't need it.
At this point, you could take away the shield's +2 AC and it still be almost as worthwhile as without house rules (to prevent 10-15 damage every turn and not even take an action to don or doff).
Do non-shield bearers get any buffs? Maybe a bonus to hit, move speed, or free interaction?
No they don't, however it turns out the Paladin was using the original house rule and I didn't notice. So they rolled over a 10 meaning they blocked my damage which was less than 10 that attack. If an attack does between 10-15 damage the paladin has to roll above a 15 to block all damage, and if the damage is above 16 the paladin has to roll a 20 to block all damage. However the paladin can choose to use this reaction after they see if the attack is going to actually hit them or not. I've edited the original post to reflect this.
Your DM has homebrew loaded the Paladin to the point of OP in direct fights and if he has not made any houserules to buff other martial classes then he is treating the rest of you unfairly. Either the Paladin his pet player or he's just fanboying the sword and board loadout for some reason.
Especially not allowing you to use Acrobatics against shoves is just stupid. It nerfs all DEX builds, so unless you get something in return for being nerfed you should complain.
Please see above about the shield rule. As for not being able to use Acrobatics, I think that is the DM forgetting the particulars of the Shove feature, and might let me if I show them the PHB, but then again maybe not.
The rule is completely overkill for buffing shield users. I basicly gives them a saving throw against normal attacks and then on a Paladin that already excells at saving throws against magic. Together with the fact that it doesn't require an action to equip the shield. If there is no homebrew rules to buff the rest of you or give another disadvantage to shields then the DM is being unfair to you.
Its already hard for a Monk to beat a Paladin in a fair fight and with your DM's rules it is downright impossible. The monk does not deal massive dmg on single hit but to add it up with multiple attacks. Your only chance is to only fight ranged and that is not a possibility in the 50x50 "arena".
Is the Paladin by any chance a closer friend of the DM than the rest of the players?
That is a massively disproportionate buff to shields that is insanely more powerful than even the Heavy Armor Master feat. There is no reason for such a thing to exist.
That your DM has been playing for 40+ years indicates to me that they are clearly favoring the Paladin's player.
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Hello everyone, so first let me set the scene a little. Our characters are level 6 and I've dueled my groups paladin twice now in some fun little pvp sessions that are outside of our main campaign, to help us get familiar with each others capabilities really, and failed this match up miserably both times. I think I've figured out way, but let me see if I'm missing something. Everyone should also know that while no homebrew rules have been added for my monk, some have been for the Paladin which I'll get to. Here has been my setup as a Monk:
Shifter Wildhunt Monk lvl 6, AC 15, HP 48, Str +1, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +0, Wis +2, Chr -1, speed 45ft, 10x Darts (+6 hit, 1d4+3), Magic Spear (+7 hit, 1d6+4/1d8+4), Magical unarmed strikes (+7 hit, 1d6+4). I have two attacks per turn w/ my bonus. 6 Ki points. No other useful items.
Magic Initiate feat with cantrips Frostbite/Thunderclap with the spell of Thunderwave. Note: I've also tried this fight with the Mobile feat (giving up Magic Initiate) to try it another way, ended up worse with the Mobile feat (I'll get to my theory why).
Vs.
Bronze Dragonborne Paladin lvl 6, AC 20 (is magic armor that nullifies any critical hit on Paladin), HP 63, Str +3, Dex +0, Con +1, Int +1, Wis +0, Chr +2, speed 30ft, Breath weapon (30ft, 3d6, DC 12), Magic Sword (+6 hit, 1d8+4), Unarmed strike (+6 hit, 4dmg), 5x Javelin (+6 hit, 1d6+3, 30/120 range), has Channel Divinity: Abjure Enemy (DC 13), Lay on Hands (30HP pool), Channel Divinity Vow of Enmity, Shield Master Shove, Shield Master Evasion, has a Wand of Healing (5x Cure Wounds charges), Spells Bane/Bless/Command/Hunter's Mark/Shield of Faith/Branding Smite/Hold Person/Misty Step, Divine Smite (2d8 plus 1d8 per spell slot used above 1st, has 2x 2nd lvl, 4x 1st lvl slots). Player uses Command, Hold Person, Misty Step, and of course Divine Smite the most against me.
Paladin's shield homebrew rule: On one attack per turn against the Paladin that hits (Paladin can choose which attack to use this on after knowing if the attack hits or not), attacker does 10dmg or less : Paladin must roll 10 or higher to block all damage, 10-15dmg : Paladin must roll 15 or higher to block all damage, 16 dmg or more : Paladin must roll 20 to block all damage.
The effects I've seen within the fights of Monk vs Paladin
-Paladin consistently knocks my Monk prone, taking half his speed away, meaning I can almost never get away.
-Stunning Strike has never ever landed (on this Paladin or in normal campaign combat. Not surprising as it's DC is DC 13 CON). So that tactic has been useless.
-Dodge mostly works until I run out of Ki points.
-Range damage is useless as the shield always soaks it up the damage despite whichever feat I had but Mobile feat was worse because at least Magic damage from spells did a tiny bit of damage to the Paladin.
-The maps we use are only about 50ft by 50ft, and we can't leave that area, so Mobile feat never really let me get far enough away, assuming I wasn't knocked prone or held by the Hold Person spell.
It seems with these homebrew rules, and the awesome armor/weapon/shield tricks the DM has given the Paladin that I stand no chance no matter what I do. That even if I can get through the AC, I have to roll nearly max damage (and can't crit) to even scratch the Paladin. And if by some miracle Stunning Strike lands, I still have to roll above the AC and can only do this 6 times before I'm spent.
Anybody see a way I could maybe ever get the upper hand in this pvp fight? Or have the cards been stacked too high against me? Please don't roast me too much as I'm still a fairly new DnDer.
Thanks Everyone
-A distressed Furry Flurry named Mr. Fluffy
It seems with these homebrew rules, and the awesome armor/weapon/shield tricks the DM has given the Paladin that I stand no chance no matter what I do. That even if I can get through the AC, I have to roll nearly max damage (and can't crit) to even scratch the Paladin. And if by some miracle Stunning Strike lands, I still have to roll above the AC and can only do this 6 times before I'm spent.
I think you answered your own question. Even without homebrew shield rules and a 2d8+4 1 hand sword and a healing wand, paladins have high hp and AC with great burst damage for short fights. You aren't on anywhere near the same level as this paladin going by the information you provided.
Paladins don't get CON as a save proficiency, so they should still need to roll an 11 or 12 to save. All you need to land is one stunning strike and you'll be well ahead. Also, did I miss where you said what kind of Monk subclass you are? That would be helpful information.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Considering how 5e's bounded accuracy works, shield already seems like they have great value. I could see reducing damage by something like 3, but 10 ?!
What is the origin of this houserule ? It doesn't even take a reaction or anything, just having a shield gives you basically 10hp/round ?
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What is the homebrew part for the first rule? Shove has always been able to shove 5 feet or shove prone. Are you not allowed to contest the paladin's Athletics with your Acrobatics?
The second rule is absurdly overpowered. No one is going to roast you, but we might roast your DM for this rule.
The small battlefield doesn't even let you take advantage of your superior mobility and the paladin's traditional weakness to ranged combat. If the battlefield were bigger, I think you could win with a short bow. It would take a long time because the first hit every turn would do nothing and the second would deal 5 less damage (if I'm understanding the rule correctly) maybe dealing nothing. Bring a lot of arrows.
The paladin should only have a +3 on Con saves vs your ki save of 13. If you attempt a stunning strike with both attacks on your first turn, you should, on average, land one stunning strike (assuming both attacks hit). If you don't land a stunning strike in the first two attacks, I think I would flurry and try again. I suggest you spend the following turn removing the stunned paladin's shield (action) and stowing it in your pack (free action?) instead of attacking. That removes the biggest obstacle and even if the paladin gets the shield back, it still requires a whole action to put it on.
I would also point out that the paladin seems to have rolled exceedingly well on their HP to have 61HP at lv 6. This would break down like this:
10 HP at lv1 for their class.
Level 6 with 12 constitution -> 6HP.
Then 5d10 for the remainder, which is 45HP, which comes out at an average roll of 9 on their d10.
On the other hand, your monk with 14 con has:
8HP at lv1 for their class
Level 6 with 14 constitution -> 12HP
Then 5d8 for the remainder, which is 28, which comes out at an average roll of 5.6, slightly over the average of 4.5. My guess is your DM has a rule of "roll, and take the average if you roll below" or something ?
But you're starting at a disadvantage because of the arena, disadvantage from what seems to be is a ludicrous houserule that turns the paladin into a litteral tank, and disadvantage on HP. And... You just don't have much in the way of advantages. If the shield thing at least took their reaction, you could try playing with your speed, but that's about it.
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If the Paladin gets a super awesome shield bonus as a houserule, you should get something comparable to match. Perhaps carrion crawler-equivalent poison for your darts (1d4+2 and paralysis, DC 13): even if the shield soaks the damage from the dart, the poison should still have a chance. Or a Cloak of Displacement to augment your lower AC plus a houserule that allowed you to attack normally with reach weapons.
I'm guessing this is an Ancients Paladin?
I should have stated our subclasses. I’ve fixed this in the original post but I’ll state it here as well. My monk is of the Way of the Open Hand and the paladin is an Oath of Vengeance paladin. But this Paladin has Aura of Protection so they get +2 to all saving throws, so they have a +3 CON saving throw.
This blocking home rule does require the paladin’s reaction. So yes they get it every round, and yeah basically 10hp every round from what I gather. As for its origin, I was guessing 3.5e since the DM use to play a lot of that, but he's been playing for like 40 years so he's done all the versions.
I apologize for my mistake on the Shove attributes, I was looking at the Paladin’s notes on their abilities when I wrote some of my original post, and I was looking at Shield Master Shove I saw “within 5ft” and was thinking that meant they could only push 5ft (but now that it’s been pointed out it makes sense that this always allowed for push OR knock prone). I contested with the DM that I should be able to use my acrobatics, which is +6, to combat the paladin’s +6 athletics, but the DM said no (I also didn’t know that the rules say I can, and with our DM if I point out that the rules allow it I might be allowed too), instead the DM said is a straight strength vs strength so it’s always been my +1 vs the paladin’s +3. See below for my comment about Stunning Strike, being mobile.
Your comment about HP is correct, the DM makes us re-roll leveling HP rolls that are low (we re-roll a 1, 2, or 3). And I wasn’t correct about the Paladin’s HP, they at lvl 7 now have 71HP and I know they rolled a 7 when we hit lvl 7, which means that the paladin had 63HP not 61 as I stated in my original post. I never did the math before, which if you subtract the 6HP given by the +1 CON modifier and divide by 6 means the paladin would have to of rolled an average of 9.3, so I’m guessing the Paladin screwed up somewhere by accident and I doubt anyone would complain to much at getting this corrected. See below for my question about playing with speed.
As for Stunning Strike, since the paladin gets +2 to all saving throws making their CON save +3, and my Stunning Strike’s DC is 13, on average the paladin will make just over 50% of those throws. Although I have terrible luck with Stunning Strike, or anything requiring a DC from my Ki and nothing has ever worked with any creature, which is why I tend to favor Dodge. But even if I stun the paladin, I only have a 25% to hit above that 20AC, which means I have to potentially spend 3-4 Ki points for just one Stunning Strike, and even then the max damage I could do is 30 (and that’s if I do Flurry of Blows and land max damage on each and every strike hitting above the 30HP, which I’d think isn’t a realistic hope).
Also, the DM has ruled that it is highly impractical for me to try and grapple (or take away from a stunned paladin) the paladin’s shield as it is strapped to their arm, and even if I did manage it that I can only either weild it at disadvantage or drop it on the grown (it’s too big/heavy to strap to my back quickly, thus it’d take several rounds of actions).
So back to my original question of how could I fight a Paladin with this build in the type of arena’s we’ve been fighting in. If I could convince the DM to go back to the original homebrew rule concerning her shield (where she must roll to block, and that blocking die number is determined by different damage gates), would I stand a chance? What if I took a different feat?
To my knowledge the homebrew shield block rule does take the paladin’s reaction, so how could I play with my speed? How does that help me get past a reaction that will always block my melee/ranged strikes?
Please NOTE: I mis-spoke before when I had their weapon at 2d8, it's actually only 1d8, I was thinking Divine Smite was only 1d8 when it's 2d8 (at 1st lvl) and the weapon is only 1d8.
Even with no homebrew, monk vs paladin is a difficult fight that would usually require the monk to kite as much as possible.
The homebrew shield absorption rule,
homebrew legendary longsword, and homebrew wand of cure wounds just makes this fight impossible for you (and really just makes the paladin OP in encounters too).You can hold an object without weilding it. So you can hold the shield without disadvantage (no bonus to AC either). If you grapple and shove the paladin prone, you will have advantage on attacks, but both those actions will use your athletics mod, so probably not helpful. Remind the DM that shove can be contested with you acrobatics per the rules, but if it is still a problem the athlete feat lets you get up for only 5 movement.
With flurry of blows, open hand monks can knock targets prone requiring a failed DEX save. Then your attacks have advantage for rest of round.
If the shield thing takes their reaction, that means you can attack and move away, since they won't have a reaction available for their attack of opportunity. Then it's a matter of being able to move around the small arena without letting them catch up to you.
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Yes but with the Mobile feat they can't take that Opportunity Attack anyway when I move away as long as I attack them. Of course your comment becomes a lot more valuable with other feats. Unless I'm still not following your suggestion, which is possible since I'm newer to DnD like I mentioned before.
Also, I just want to thank everyone for all their helpful comments, suggestions, and opinions so far. It definitely makes me feel a little better that I'm just not failing horribly as a Monk.
Oh, right, my bad, I actually missed that!
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"OK ready, roll initiative!"
"I rolled a..."
"OK, you win!"
That would get tired really fast.
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I would still have to Grapple the shield away which the DM has said I pretty much can't do, and even if I did they can potentially grapple it back and would then simply sacrifice some of their movement to put it back on (not expending their action according to a prior DM ruling that applies to everyone). The idea of knocking them prone is a good one, since that would bring my hit % to just above the paladin's at 50% to hit the paladin (since I'd have advantage). While this would require me to still have to land a hit it would make it so my Ki points don't get wasted on things that don't work as well, but the Paladin still has a +2 to Dex saves so it's only +1 better than Stunning Strike, but that's still +1 that I didn't think of.
This is going to be bit rude, but that shield house rule is crap and I don't think I would stay with that DM.
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Yeah, that DM is clearly over buffing shields, and they don't need it.
At this point, you could take away the shield's +2 AC and it still be almost as worthwhile as without house rules (to prevent 10-15 damage every turn and not even take an action to don or doff).
Do non-shield bearers get any buffs? Maybe a bonus to hit, move speed, or free interaction?
Your DM has homebrew loaded the Paladin to the point of OP in direct fights and if he has not made any houserules to buff other martial classes then he is treating the rest of you unfairly. Either the Paladin his pet player or he's just fanboying the sword and board loadout for some reason.
Especially not allowing you to use Acrobatics against shoves is just stupid. It nerfs all DEX builds, so unless you get something in return for being nerfed you should complain.
No they don't, however it turns out the Paladin was using the original house rule and I didn't notice. So they rolled over a 10 meaning they blocked my damage which was less than 10 that attack. If an attack does between 10-15 damage the paladin has to roll above a 15 to block all damage, and if the damage is above 16 the paladin has to roll a 20 to block all damage. However the paladin can choose to use this reaction after they see if the attack is going to actually hit them or not. I've edited the original post to reflect this.
Please see above about the shield rule. As for not being able to use Acrobatics, I think that is the DM forgetting the particulars of the Shove feature, and might let me if I show them the PHB, but then again maybe not.
The rule is completely overkill for buffing shield users. I basicly gives them a saving throw against normal attacks and then on a Paladin that already excells at saving throws against magic. Together with the fact that it doesn't require an action to equip the shield. If there is no homebrew rules to buff the rest of you or give another disadvantage to shields then the DM is being unfair to you.
Its already hard for a Monk to beat a Paladin in a fair fight and with your DM's rules it is downright impossible. The monk does not deal massive dmg on single hit but to add it up with multiple attacks. Your only chance is to only fight ranged and that is not a possibility in the 50x50 "arena".
Is the Paladin by any chance a closer friend of the DM than the rest of the players?
That is a massively disproportionate buff to shields that is insanely more powerful than even the Heavy Armor Master feat. There is no reason for such a thing to exist.
That your DM has been playing for 40+ years indicates to me that they are clearly favoring the Paladin's player.
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