As a new player of dnd, an old member of rp communities prior and admittedly a min/maxer xd (who simply enjoys the maths), I have a question about how far a players requests to a dm for some gimmick or feature or new cool thing they can have or do would be allowed while still being totally fair and fun.
I do of course understand that game breaking stuff isn't allowed, like I wouldn't ask "can I have a CR 18 pet dragon at level 2?" xd. I also understand that every DM is different and would rule these things differently. My goal in my question to find a sort of 'acceptable average" of what is considered fair leeway.
For example I heard of one guy who managed to earn almost every tool proficiency and their character changed races for a while before changing back because of a story arc.
You guys as the dms, if I asked you the following questions which would you allow and not allow and why (not asking for them together. pretend as if each was the players only request)?
1) The above example with the tool profs hoarding and the temp race switch.
2) If I asked for my medium sized character to be small sized instead (with legitimate enough rp reasons) so I could mount the team barbarian or fighter for some combat safety (with the trade off of weakness to aoe and the likes). My rp reason is that since they are a half elf I could say their other half is simply halfling and the way my backstory is looking it could easily fit. I would guess that since being small sized is a halfling and goblin unique feature, various dms would rule this differently. I mean you could get a midget Goliath or a really tall pixie that reaches small size right?
3) If I asked for my character to have a feature similar do the Dullahan (basically headless horsemen) where they could detach their head as an rp feature. Since half elves and Dullahan are part fey, this could work. If you were the type of dm to allow this, would you go so far as to allow the player to use their spooky severed head as a spellcasting focus if they still held it in one hand as per the rules?
4) Would you allow a spell casting character the ability to cast a spell that they cannot use if they donned a strong enough weakness to counter balance? My example could be the Find Steed spell in exchange for something like weakness to poison or color blindness or something or 'more easily disliked by innocent npcs' or a combination of those. So I guess this question is, would go so far as to allow normally unobtainable features/abilities in exchange for faily balanced weaknesses or is that changing too much?
5) Straight up (doubting this is possible), if i found a really good rp reason could I become a good aligned lich if I became a lich? If i got this with a tradeoff, would it be possible then? This one is a clear asking to break the rules since lich have to be evil aligned, but this is rp and once again every dm and campaign is different.
You can probably see that the chances of a yes to these questions is getting progressively smaller with each one. I'm trying to find the line of what is acceptable not just for my own character plan but also so I don't bother my dm with unfair questions. I like to do my best, but I am not a cheater and I want to have fun and do well while still being ethically fair even if a rule would say something is okay in an ethically unfair situation such as a Spell sniper divination sorclock or a coffeelock.
"It's not that big of a deal... right?" Is what a player might ask, but I don't want to do that. I want to try find the line of fairness on what to ask of my dm without sounding like I'm overstepping or doing the thing that an overly hungry aligned min/maxer might do when treading on the line of cheating. I absolutely don't want to be that guy.
I don't DM in my current game, but I have been allowed a few things, mostly reskins. I wanted to play a duelist who uses a cloak-and-rapier fighting style and my DM allows me to use a cloak that is mechanically identical to a shield and I just describe it as foiling and snaring attacks rather than turning them aside as you would with a plank of wood and metal. He also allowed me to take Eilistraee's Moonblade as my Hexblade patron rather than a a blade of Shadowfell origin.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
None of these would be something that I'd dismiss out of hand, but many of them are things that I'd only allow on a case by case basis. Some of these are probably possible within the rules and/or a home brew magic item. The tool proficiency thing could be accomplished through the right build plus the right downtime activities. A cursed item could make someone small when they were typically otherwise and the transformation trope is common enough that it doesn't concern me much. The nature of the item would be specific to the character. I'd probably have it just transform the character from one race to another and consider whether the subrace options should be changed as well (if not, probably random roll for the subrace). There would probably be an added curse attached to compensate against a magic user or non- heavy weapon user taking less of a disadvantage from it than a heavy weapon user.
There are plenty of options to be able to cast something you normally wouldn't be able to cast. Multiclass, feats, and magical items all already do this. The specific case might require homebrew, but it's not a stretch.
The lich thing would be a fascinating story. Perhaps the nature of the person charged with the care of the phylactory (sp? Wrong idea?)? It wouldn't fit every story, so I'd be more discerning about that.
The Dullahan thing would probably be a homebrew race for me. See the Beyonders series of books by Brandon Mull with Ferrin. Otherwise, the character would have to be undead for me.
Finally, the different sizes for a race. I'm probably least likely to allow for this outside of specific instances of half-elf and maybe half-orc. I'd probably have a -1 to strength added to indicate that the character is smaller than normal for their race. I might counter this with a +1 to dex. I'm less inclined to do this simply because the option to choose a creature that is small is there. I understand that having a Goliath who is vertically challenged is a much different character than a halfling, but I don't want to stress about the balance issues for the other players. Considering that dwarves are medium build, there is a fair amount of leeway for medium characters anyway.
I happily gave my players common magic items, but the ones that I gave them add flavor and fun to their PCs but don’t give any mechanical advantages. The players can be creative and gain advantages with them, of course, but it requires creativity and that adds fun to the game.
I tend towards sticking with the rules as they’re written for PCs because once you start fiddling with home brewed changes to classes and/or races it takes a lot of time and effort that I don’t have to make sure thar the changes are balanced. Now, when it comes to monsters, Magic items, etc. that I use as the DM things are different. I home brew all sorts of things for the party to face!
1) Tool profs hoarding and/or temp race switch are fine. Interesting story. Should have given up certain other things to get this, but cool
2) Medium sized-> small should be OK, but I would expect penalties. I would reduce walking speed to 25 and also have them roll a d6: 1-3 = -1 to Strength (bigger = stronger, so smaller = weaker) 4-6 = -1 to Constitution (sickly)
3) Re-moveable head should be a feat. With in game benefits and penalties clearly described. I would ask you to specifically write up some things you could do and some penalties - such as what happens if you literally lose your head.
4) Magic Initiate can be taken to grant a 1st level spell. Subclasses routinely grant spells to list. Certain other racial feats add a spell (Fade Away, Drow High Magic,). Design a feat to do it. Lower level spells get a better feat, higher level spells have costs.
5) No problem at all becoming a good aligned lich in my campaign. But that is Campaign dependent.
1.) A tool proficiency, I would honestly likely just give a PC as a freebie if they had a good reason for their character having that proficiency that wasn't somehow covered in their background. It's so freaking rare for most players to care about or try to use tools that I'm of the opinion it should be encouraged whenever possible. ALL of the tool proficiencies, no. Unless they're an artificer and gaining a campaign boon.
1a.) A temporary race change sounds like an interesting story beat. I'd have to know how they're justifying it, but I wouldn't be averse if they had a cool plot to go along with the swatch.
2.) As a general rule I wouldn't have a huge issue with homebrewing a Midget version of a basic race. Small size is generally more advantageous than not, but it's still an interesting enough idea that I would be willing to work with it. Especially for halfbreeds, which are blasphemous enough as it is that nobody should care if the unspecified half is something other than human. Blugh.
3.) Now you're getting into territory I would be Fry Meming my player over. A detachable huckin' head would, at the least, be a campaign boon/keystone feat, and it would be discussed beforehand. The player would need a very good reason why their character can treat their head like a soccer drone, and the head does not count as a spellcasting focus just because it's in your hands instead of on your shoulders.
4.) In this case, it would depend on party makeup. A spellcaster could theoretically gain access to a spell outside their class if the game gave them a reason to do so, but if the character is explicitly attempting to steal all of the Paladin class's best signature spells while the party has a Paladin, that's going to be harder to pull off. Again, most of your questions boil down to "why does this character have this special trait?" You don't need to saddle yourself with some comic-book weaksauce weakness to justify such things, but you do need to tell me why you get this special allowance when the vast majority of characters don't. If you can't sell that case, you can't have your thingy without figuring out how to sell the case.
5.) No. Just no. Everybody always wants to be a lich, make themselves into an immortal spellcaster with infinite spellcasting so they can flip their DM the bird finger. No. Liches are off the table in my game, and any game I'm a player in rather than the DM, I will take myself out of that game if one player manages to browbeat the DM into letting them become a lich. No. No, no, no, no, no. Stop. Freaking. Asking.
Generally, I'd be much more willing to give cool stuff for players who want cool stuff to RP with than for players who want it to min-max.
Like, sure, if you want to min-max, go ahead and find the perfect combination of feats and weapons and multiclass dips and whatnot. But don't ask to break the rules and get super-powerful custom stuff - you're already pushing the rules to the limits, don't break them too!
On the other hand, if someone mostly picks stuff for flavor/theme/RP reasons, and they want something for those reasons that happens to be pretty powerful, then sure, it's not gonna break the campaign because they're not using it efficiently anyway, go ahead.
So I think the reasoning, and the player, matters a lot.
For example I heard of one guy who managed to earn almost every tool proficiency and their character changed races for a while before changing back because of a story arc.
You guys as the dms, if I asked you the following questions which would you allow and not allow and why (not asking for them together. pretend as if each was the players only request)?
1) The above example with the tool profs hoarding and the temp race switch.
Depends on the reasoning! If they wanted a temp race switch to boost stats and switch back when they don't need that stat anymore, then no, make the best of what you got, the optimization is the challenge there. If there was a story that makes sense where they switch races and switch back, sure.
Interestingly, tool proficiency hoarding is the kind of thing that probably has more RP value than minmax value. I've found that in a party players tend to find ways to get checks to use their proficiency bonus anyway. Like, if someone's playing cards, if they've got "gaming set proficiency" they'll use that. ...but if they don't, they'll probably ask "hey, can I use my Performance skill here" and end up with their proficiency bonus anyway.
So again, if this was because a character kept running in to a need for tools that they don't have and thus wanted to keep picking them up so they can keep getting the bonus, no. If it makes sense in the story, sure.
2) If I asked for my medium sized character to be small sized instead (with legitimate enough rp reasons) so I could mount the team barbarian or fighter for some combat safety (with the trade off of weakness to aoe and the likes). My rp reason is that since they are a half elf I could say their other half is simply halfling and the way my backstory is looking it could easily fit. I would guess that since being small sized is a halfling and goblin unique feature, various dms would rule this differently. I mean you could get a midget Goliath or a really tall pixie that reaches small size right?
Maybe... I'd have to figure out ahead of time what the strengths/weaknesses of this would be. I don't see how this would give you "combat safety" - maybe would let you use the teammate's movement to get in close, but I don't see how mechanically it would be any different than you just being next to them.
I'm leaning towards allowing it, but feeling some skepticism because you're describing this as a combat optimization, and I don't see how it is. That makes me feel like there's some gotcha I'm missing.
3) If I asked for my character to have a feature similar do the Dullahan (basically headless horsemen) where they could detach their head as an rp feature. Since half elves and Dullahan are part fey, this could work. If you were the type of dm to allow this, would you go so far as to allow the player to use their spooky severed head as a spellcasting focus if they still held it in one hand as per the rules?
Sure, seems pretty cool, works for me. I don't see anything you could do with a head as a focus that you couldn't do with a necklace as a focus. Might make for some super freaky interactions if you ever need to cast spells in town...
4) Would you allow a spell casting character the ability to cast a spell that they cannot use if they donned a strong enough weakness to counter balance? My example could be the Find Steed spell in exchange for something like weakness to poison or color blindness or something or 'more easily disliked by innocent npcs' or a combination of those. So I guess this question is, would go so far as to allow normally unobtainable features/abilities in exchange for faily balanced weaknesses or is that changing too much?
No.
Thing is, balancing that is bloody difficult. The player will naturally do their best to have the weakness not matter at all, and so as a DM you might have to be super heavy-handed and force the weakness to matter. Like, "weakness to poison" - now, to make that matter, the DM has to keep throwing poison opponents at the party. And if it's a spellcaster that has this weakness, then maybe they stay in the back and try not to get hit anyway! And so now either the PC has gotten themselves free power for no reason, or the DM's spending the whole campaign trying to mess with them with poison to make their weakness matter and that's no fun for anybody.
Look, the game ALREADY has ways to get more powerful things - leveling up. And there's tradeoffs, in the form of your class and subclass and feature choices. Pick from those!
5) Straight up (doubting this is possible), if i found a really good rp reason could I become a good aligned lich if I became a lich? If i got this with a tradeoff, would it be possible then? This one is a clear asking to break the rules since lich have to be evil aligned, but this is rp and once again every dm and campaign is different.
No - unless it's the capstone to the campaign, in the sense that you becoming a lich is the end goal you're working for and that's when you "Retire" the character and start a new one.
You can probably see that the chances of a yes to these questions is getting progressively smaller with each one. I'm trying to find the line of what is acceptable not just for my own character plan but also so I don't bother my dm with unfair questions. I like to do my best, but I am not a cheater and I want to have fun and do well while still being ethically fair even if a rule would say something is okay in an ethically unfair situation such as a Spell sniper divination sorclock or a coffeelock.
"It's not that big of a deal... right?" Is what a player might ask, but I don't want to do that. I want to try find the line of fairness on what to ask of my dm without sounding like I'm overstepping or doing the thing that an overly hungry aligned min/maxer might do when treading on the line of cheating. I absolutely don't want to be that guy.
Thanks in advance!
It comes down to - why are you asking?
If the reason is to make your character more powerful, then I'd recommend trying your best to do that within the rules. There's plenty of people discussing builds and optimization here, go and min-max to your heart's content within RAW. Don't ask for ways to go beyond RAW.
If you're trying to get a cool character concept and aren't worrying about optimization, sure, ask away, work with your DM to find something that'll be cool.
The biggest guideline is whether the change will cause the character hog the spotlight. Some changes will cause a mechanical imbalance that will leave some people overshadowed, other changes will cause a narrative imbalance, where the story is forced to follow a particular character. (such as making your character a lich who would need the souls of other creatures to survive)
Sometimes it's fun to focus on a single character's story for a while, but if you're going to do it, all the characters need to get their turn being the center of attention.
I couldn't have asked for a better bombardment of advice! This is the most helpful forum I have ever been on. It really reflects the awesome vibe of dnd and its players xd.
Thank you all for the advice. I will take it all into proper consideration. I think I've got a good feel now for that line of fairness I was looking for. Aweome stuff ^^.
If you're doing it because of role playing, and because it fits into the story that the DM is trying to tell, then it's great.
If you're doing it because you want to be more powerful, and you're trying to impose your character's story onto the story that the DM is trying to tell, it's not great.
Before you come up with your character's story arc, make sure that you learn about the campaign. Does becoming a good lich seem like a natural result from the story arc of the campaign? Or is it just you trying to superimpose your idea onto the DMs campaign?
The key in how to do this is that the player should not be coming to the DM and saying "this is what I have in mind" and then presenting the DM with a bunch of specific changes. The way it works is that the player comes to the DM with an idea, and they work together to find the specific ways to make it work. That way the DM can find a way to take your idea and fit it into the campaign that he's writing. That way it seems natural when it happens, and it's not just "oh, this powergamer got the DM to give him these superpowers that don't make any sense for the campaign that we're in." The key is to work with your DM to design the character, rather than giving your DM the specific character design.
It's very dangerous to start asking the DM to give your character special abilities that make you more powerful, because this can ruin games. When you get the DM to make your character much more powerful, and everyone else's characters are much less powerful by comparison, it takes a lot of the fun out of the game for your allies. It would be like having an adventuring party where the DM's best friend is level 10 and everyone else in the party is level 3. If everyone was level 3, the game would still be fun. But if one person is level 10 and everyone else is level 3, the game is a lot less fun. You want to avoid trying to game the system to make your character more powerful, because not only will that make the DM feel like you're trying to bully him, but it will make all of your party members feel like you're trying to hog the attention and be the focus of the game.
Don't just ask yourself how the DM would feel about you coming up with all of these changes that you have in mind for your character (especially if they're not at all related to the campaign). Also ask yourself how your teammates would feel if your character got all of these special perks, while their characters were just normal characters.
The biggest reasons for asking all of this is to make sure that I am being fair and not overshadowing anyone else on the team or harming the campaign. The way the current campaign is going, we haven't been told anything about the world around us yet and are basically on a 'tutorial island'. We've done 5 sessions so far and reached level 2. I have actually dmed 3 of those sessions because the dm has been busy with irl stuff. I've been keeping everyone happy and having fun on the island with side stories while the actual dm got stuff sorted irl and they have now begun prepping some proper stuff. That said, it is a totally home brew campaign that doesn't seem to have a main plot yet. Because of all of this combined with the likelihood that I am the only one on the team min/maxing on such an obsessive level xd, I am making sure to tread very carefully while having fun with my maths.
I also happen to be the only spellcaster and only healer on the team so I'm doing everything I can to be a great healer and utility support (and the only one with aoe damage xd) while also not stealing the spotlight for having the only non martial pc on the team. We've had great fun so far and I wanna help keep it that way while still enjoying what I can do with my character. For example, I plan to be a bit of a summoner later (for backstory reasons) once I've properly filled the healer role ^^. As someone who plans to be a summoner, that's one reason why I suggested the Find Steed spell as a possible boon if I could have earned it later. Since my character is the most vulnerable and highest value target for being the only healer and only one that doesn't wear heavy armor or at least medium armor, I have to tread insanely carefully in combat and thought Find Steed might help my pc with some extra self safety. I personally enjoy the challenge of figuring out how to handle it as a member of the team lol. I know that if I die in combat that things might go bad for the team really fast xd.
For reference, our team composition is a half elf rogue, 2 human fighters, a dragonborn barbarian, and me the Mark of the Storm half elf divine soul sorcerer xd. I went for ds sorc since they still have access to the full cleric spell list, but can also be fun for my style as a role player. I plan to get a 1 level dip in hexblade warlock so I can have the very very much needed medium armor prof, as well as slowly using converted spell slots on quickening Eldrich blasts to save the rest of my spell slots healing my team where needed. I'm stretched pretty thin to fit the healer, utility support and aoe roles (with fireball being sorc and wiz exclusive). I still like it though and no party has to be perfect since its mainly about the role play. The dm did say the campaign was going to be light difficulty anyway since its the first campaign for most of us so I'm looking forward to it ^^. I am looking forward to using my min/maxing powers to keep the team and team spirit alive hahaha.
1) The above example with the tool profs hoarding and the temp race switch.
I would be OK with giving a free tool proficiency. Beyond that I'd following the training rules. If you wanted to start the campaign with them - no. But in the game there could be ways to gift the knowledge magically or we can time-skip if the story calls for it and you can learn during the downtime as per training rules. It's still something earned in game though - if you want is as a reward, sure, but that means you won't get the magic items or gold.
Race change is fine as long as it isn't something too common - and if there is a good story reason why. Reincarnate spell comes to mind as one way. As long as you're not expecting to change race lots of times and it's not so you can get the best racial racial features for what you expect to face, it's fine.
2) If I asked for my medium sized character to be small sized instead (with legitimate enough rp reasons) so I could mount the team barbarian or fighter for some combat safety (with the trade off of weakness to aoe and the likes). My rp reason is that since they are a half elf I could say their other half is simply halfling and the way my backstory is looking it could easily fit. I would guess that since being small sized is a halfling and goblin unique feature, various dms would rule this differently. I mean you could get a midget Goliath or a really tall pixie that reaches small size right?
3) If I asked for my character to have a feature similar do the Dullahan (basically headless horsemen) where they could detach their head as an rp feature. Since half elves and Dullahan are part fey, this could work. If you were the type of dm to allow this, would you go so far as to allow the player to use their spooky severed head as a spellcasting focus if they still held it in one hand as per the rules?
As a homebrew starting race where your other racial features are more limited and stuff I'd consider it. If this is to be "in addition" to what your race can already do, then "no" with exception of late-level boons. In either case it would offer advantage to intimidation checks when headless, a chance to frighten people who see you remove your head and move headlessly - but only on those who have not seen it before, spells can be targeted from head or body depending on spell. But there'd be limitations: you still only see and hear from the head so your body is considered blind and deaf when interacting with things your head cannot see and hear, the head must remain within 100 ft of the body - once it goes past that limit you have a number of turns equal to your Con mod to get back within that limit or you instantly die. When you remove the head your Hit Points are separated: 3/4 rounded down to body and 1/4 rounded up to the head. If either drop to 0 HP you are considered Dying and both become incapacitated. If both drop to 0 HP you die instantly.
Even with the limitations it's powerful so it must either be your race or an Epic Boon.
4) Would you allow a spell casting character the ability to cast a spell that they cannot use if they donned a strong enough weakness to counter balance? My example could be the Find Steed spell in exchange for something like weakness to poison or color blindness or something or 'more easily disliked by innocent npcs' or a combination of those. So I guess this question is, would go so far as to allow normally unobtainable features/abilities in exchange for faily balanced weaknesses or is that changing too much?
Depends on the spell and reasons why. Find Steed? Sure. I actually don't agree with that being a Paladin only spell. Find Greater Steed I'm not sure about - maybe I'd open it to wizards and warlocks But by the level of getting this, I'd be fine if the entire party could fly so cool flying mounts? Sure. Maybe for the whole party as a special reward or something. No weakness required. They're just mounts - easy to factor, and even flying ones from greater steed are fine - I'm not the type of DM who hates flying characters. Quite frankly I'd be down with every character having flying from the start. It's so easy to deal with. And hey, enemies can fly too. An aerial battle in the sky would be totally cool.
5) Straight up (doubting this is possible), if i found a really good rp reason could I become a good aligned lich if I became a lich? If i got this with a tradeoff, would it be possible then? This one is a clear asking to break the rules since lich have to be evil aligned, but this is rp and once again every dm and campaign is different.
Sure.
I absolutely detest fixed alignment. I don't agree that undead must be evil or that lichdom can only be achieved with evil acts. And you can technically achieve it through the Rules - as - Written in more than one way. Personally it seems an odd choice - if the idea is immortality then the Clone spell will suffice or perhaps the Epic Boon of Immortality? Fine either way. After all, you could be completely unkillable and I'm OK with that in the late game - because I can have enemies just as powerful and with the specially selected magic items and limitless gold - so one villain with a Diamond spell gem casting as an action the Imprisonment spell with the Portent feature? Well, you succeeded in immortality, but now you're trapped forever. Oh well. Might have you make a temp character as the party tries to rescue you.
Lichdom and pursuits of immortality are late level things and easy for a DM to deal with.
I mean hey, I could give everyone in the party the ability to cast Wish 10 times per day without ever suffering the negative drawbacks or risk of losing the spell forever. I'll still be able to make enemies more powerful than you - I'm the DM. So granting lichdom at late level? Piece of cake. Granting age-immortality? No prob, heck start the game with it if you want - it has absolutely zero effect on gameplay.
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I tend to be rather liberal - as long as everyone is equal in their own way and happy, I can work with a lot.
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I'd actually say that a good lich is, out of the example you've listed, probably the eassiet to get away with. But let's start from the top.
1) The above example with the tool profs hoarding and the temp race switch.
Tool proficiency? Sure. It's just a matter of time and money and if you can figure out a suitable substitute for that, why not. Race switch? Depending on how it's done. Resurrection or polymorph is probably the easist but you wouldn't get any benefits from your old race.
2) If I asked for my medium sized character to be small sized instead (with legitimate enough rp reasons) so I could mount the team barbarian or fighter for some combat safety (with the trade off of weakness to aoe and the likes). My rp reason is that since they are a half elf I could say their other half is simply halfling and the way my backstory is looking it could easily fit. I would guess that since being small sized is a halfling and goblin unique feature, various dms would rule this differently. I mean you could get a midget Goliath or a really tall pixie that reaches small size right?
No. First of all, "combat safety" is not a legitimate rp reason. Combat is inherently dangerous and the upsides you would get is not matched by the downsides. I would probably allow you to play a halfing that has elven ancestry but rules-wise you are a halfling. If you want to play a small race, play a small race. If you want to play a half-elf, play a half-elf. They are size medium.
3) If I asked for my character to have a feature similar do the Dullahan (basically headless horsemen) where they could detach their head as an rp feature. Since half elves and Dullahan are part fey, this could work. If you were the type of dm to allow this, would you go so far as to allow the player to use their spooky severed head as a spellcasting focus if they still held it in one hand as per the rules?
Nope. It would not work. Again, if you want to play a race with a certain special feature, play that race.
4) Would you allow a spell casting character the ability to cast a spell that they cannot use if they donned a strong enough weakness to counter balance? My example could be the Find Steed spell in exchange for something like weakness to poison or color blindness or something or 'more easily disliked by innocent npcs' or a combination of those. So I guess this question is, would go so far as to allow normally unobtainable features/abilities in exchange for faily balanced weaknesses or is that changing too much?
None of the weaknesses you mention or comparable to the huge bonus of a free spell, especially not a powerful one such as Find Steed. There is no mechanical way of balancing "Free awesome spell" with "people might not like me". How would you even make sure that "weakness" is handled by the DM? Should you roll a D6 every time you talk to someone and on a 1 they attack you? Most features and abilities are obtainable (through magic items, if nothing else) so I really don't see a need for anything else. But if you want what you're asking about the weakness must actually balance the bonus. You want to cast Find Steed? Sure, but your Max HP is lowered by the amount of HP you roll for the Steed (for as long as your steed is manifested) and your gain a level of Exhaustion due to the sheer effort of using your own life force to create an entire new being.
5) Straight up (doubting this is possible), if i found a really good rp reason could I become a good aligned lich if I became a lich? If i got this with a tradeoff, would it be possible then? This one is a clear asking to break the rules since lich have to be evil aligned, but this is rp and once again every dm and campaign is different.
If you can be an evil Paladon you can be a good Lich. But would a good person be able to live with what they have done to become a Lich and still keep on being Good? How would you atone for your actions?
5) Straight up (doubting this is possible), if i found a really good rp reason could I become a good aligned lich if I became a lich? If i got this with a tradeoff, would it be possible then? This one is a clear asking to break the rules since lich have to be evil aligned, but this is rp and once again every dm and campaign is different.
If you can be an evil Paladon you can be a good Lich. But would a good person be able to live with what they have done to become a Lich and still keep on being Good? How would you atone for your actions?
Cheers!
Dealing with what they've done in the past is the easy part of being a good lich. The more important question is how do you continue to be good while devouring people's eternal souls?
5) Straight up (doubting this is possible), if i found a really good rp reason could I become a good aligned lich if I became a lich? If i got this with a tradeoff, would it be possible then? This one is a clear asking to break the rules since lich have to be evil aligned, but this is rp and once again every dm and campaign is different.
If you can be an evil Paladin you can be a good Lich. But would a good person be able to live with what they have done to become a Lich and still keep on being Good? How would you atone for your actions?
Cheers!
Dealing with what they've done in the past is the easy part of being a good lich. The more important question is how do you continue to be good while devouring people's eternal souls?
Yeah, that too...
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As a new player of dnd, an old member of rp communities prior and admittedly a min/maxer xd (who simply enjoys the maths), I have a question about how far a players requests to a dm for some gimmick or feature or new cool thing they can have or do would be allowed while still being totally fair and fun.
I do of course understand that game breaking stuff isn't allowed, like I wouldn't ask "can I have a CR 18 pet dragon at level 2?" xd. I also understand that every DM is different and would rule these things differently. My goal in my question to find a sort of 'acceptable average" of what is considered fair leeway.
For example I heard of one guy who managed to earn almost every tool proficiency and their character changed races for a while before changing back because of a story arc.
You guys as the dms, if I asked you the following questions which would you allow and not allow and why (not asking for them together. pretend as if each was the players only request)?
1) The above example with the tool profs hoarding and the temp race switch.
2) If I asked for my medium sized character to be small sized instead (with legitimate enough rp reasons) so I could mount the team barbarian or fighter for some combat safety (with the trade off of weakness to aoe and the likes). My rp reason is that since they are a half elf I could say their other half is simply halfling and the way my backstory is looking it could easily fit. I would guess that since being small sized is a halfling and goblin unique feature, various dms would rule this differently. I mean you could get a midget Goliath or a really tall pixie that reaches small size right?
3) If I asked for my character to have a feature similar do the Dullahan (basically headless horsemen) where they could detach their head as an rp feature. Since half elves and Dullahan are part fey, this could work. If you were the type of dm to allow this, would you go so far as to allow the player to use their spooky severed head as a spellcasting focus if they still held it in one hand as per the rules?
4) Would you allow a spell casting character the ability to cast a spell that they cannot use if they donned a strong enough weakness to counter balance? My example could be the Find Steed spell in exchange for something like weakness to poison or color blindness or something or 'more easily disliked by innocent npcs' or a combination of those. So I guess this question is, would go so far as to allow normally unobtainable features/abilities in exchange for faily balanced weaknesses or is that changing too much?
5) Straight up (doubting this is possible), if i found a really good rp reason could I become a good aligned lich if I became a lich? If i got this with a tradeoff, would it be possible then? This one is a clear asking to break the rules since lich have to be evil aligned, but this is rp and once again every dm and campaign is different.
You can probably see that the chances of a yes to these questions is getting progressively smaller with each one. I'm trying to find the line of what is acceptable not just for my own character plan but also so I don't bother my dm with unfair questions. I like to do my best, but I am not a cheater and I want to have fun and do well while still being ethically fair even if a rule would say something is okay in an ethically unfair situation such as a Spell sniper divination sorclock or a coffeelock.
"It's not that big of a deal... right?" Is what a player might ask, but I don't want to do that. I want to try find the line of fairness on what to ask of my dm without sounding like I'm overstepping or doing the thing that an overly hungry aligned min/maxer might do when treading on the line of cheating. I absolutely don't want to be that guy.
Thanks in advance!
I don't DM in my current game, but I have been allowed a few things, mostly reskins. I wanted to play a duelist who uses a cloak-and-rapier fighting style and my DM allows me to use a cloak that is mechanically identical to a shield and I just describe it as foiling and snaring attacks rather than turning them aside as you would with a plank of wood and metal. He also allowed me to take Eilistraee's Moonblade as my Hexblade patron rather than a a blade of Shadowfell origin.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
None of these would be something that I'd dismiss out of hand, but many of them are things that I'd only allow on a case by case basis. Some of these are probably possible within the rules and/or a home brew magic item. The tool proficiency thing could be accomplished through the right build plus the right downtime activities. A cursed item could make someone small when they were typically otherwise and the transformation trope is common enough that it doesn't concern me much. The nature of the item would be specific to the character. I'd probably have it just transform the character from one race to another and consider whether the subrace options should be changed as well (if not, probably random roll for the subrace). There would probably be an added curse attached to compensate against a magic user or non- heavy weapon user taking less of a disadvantage from it than a heavy weapon user.
There are plenty of options to be able to cast something you normally wouldn't be able to cast. Multiclass, feats, and magical items all already do this. The specific case might require homebrew, but it's not a stretch.
The lich thing would be a fascinating story. Perhaps the nature of the person charged with the care of the phylactory (sp? Wrong idea?)? It wouldn't fit every story, so I'd be more discerning about that.
The Dullahan thing would probably be a homebrew race for me. See the Beyonders series of books by Brandon Mull with Ferrin. Otherwise, the character would have to be undead for me.
Finally, the different sizes for a race. I'm probably least likely to allow for this outside of specific instances of half-elf and maybe half-orc. I'd probably have a -1 to strength added to indicate that the character is smaller than normal for their race. I might counter this with a +1 to dex. I'm less inclined to do this simply because the option to choose a creature that is small is there. I understand that having a Goliath who is vertically challenged is a much different character than a halfling, but I don't want to stress about the balance issues for the other players. Considering that dwarves are medium build, there is a fair amount of leeway for medium characters anyway.
I happily gave my players common magic items, but the ones that I gave them add flavor and fun to their PCs but don’t give any mechanical advantages. The players can be creative and gain advantages with them, of course, but it requires creativity and that adds fun to the game.
I tend towards sticking with the rules as they’re written for PCs because once you start fiddling with home brewed changes to classes and/or races it takes a lot of time and effort that I don’t have to make sure thar the changes are balanced. Now, when it comes to monsters, Magic items, etc. that I use as the DM things are different. I home brew all sorts of things for the party to face!
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1) Tool profs hoarding and/or temp race switch are fine. Interesting story. Should have given up certain other things to get this, but cool
2) Medium sized-> small should be OK, but I would expect penalties. I would reduce walking speed to 25 and also have them roll a d6: 1-3 = -1 to Strength (bigger = stronger, so smaller = weaker) 4-6 = -1 to Constitution (sickly)
3) Re-moveable head should be a feat. With in game benefits and penalties clearly described. I would ask you to specifically write up some things you could do and some penalties - such as what happens if you literally lose your head.
4) Magic Initiate can be taken to grant a 1st level spell. Subclasses routinely grant spells to list. Certain other racial feats add a spell (Fade Away, Drow High Magic,). Design a feat to do it. Lower level spells get a better feat, higher level spells have costs.
5) No problem at all becoming a good aligned lich in my campaign. But that is Campaign dependent.
1.) A tool proficiency, I would honestly likely just give a PC as a freebie if they had a good reason for their character having that proficiency that wasn't somehow covered in their background. It's so freaking rare for most players to care about or try to use tools that I'm of the opinion it should be encouraged whenever possible. ALL of the tool proficiencies, no. Unless they're an artificer and gaining a campaign boon.
1a.) A temporary race change sounds like an interesting story beat. I'd have to know how they're justifying it, but I wouldn't be averse if they had a cool plot to go along with the swatch.
2.) As a general rule I wouldn't have a huge issue with homebrewing a Midget version of a basic race. Small size is generally more advantageous than not, but it's still an interesting enough idea that I would be willing to work with it. Especially for halfbreeds, which are blasphemous enough as it is that nobody should care if the unspecified half is something other than human. Blugh.
3.) Now you're getting into territory I would be Fry Meming my player over. A detachable huckin' head would, at the least, be a campaign boon/keystone feat, and it would be discussed beforehand. The player would need a very good reason why their character can treat their head like a soccer drone, and the head does not count as a spellcasting focus just because it's in your hands instead of on your shoulders.
4.) In this case, it would depend on party makeup. A spellcaster could theoretically gain access to a spell outside their class if the game gave them a reason to do so, but if the character is explicitly attempting to steal all of the Paladin class's best signature spells while the party has a Paladin, that's going to be harder to pull off. Again, most of your questions boil down to "why does this character have this special trait?" You don't need to saddle yourself with some comic-book weaksauce weakness to justify such things, but you do need to tell me why you get this special allowance when the vast majority of characters don't. If you can't sell that case, you can't have your thingy without figuring out how to sell the case.
5.) No. Just no. Everybody always wants to be a lich, make themselves into an immortal spellcaster with infinite spellcasting so they can flip their DM the bird finger. No. Liches are off the table in my game, and any game I'm a player in rather than the DM, I will take myself out of that game if one player manages to browbeat the DM into letting them become a lich. No. No, no, no, no, no. Stop. Freaking. Asking.
Please do not contact or message me.
Generally, I'd be much more willing to give cool stuff for players who want cool stuff to RP with than for players who want it to min-max.
Like, sure, if you want to min-max, go ahead and find the perfect combination of feats and weapons and multiclass dips and whatnot. But don't ask to break the rules and get super-powerful custom stuff - you're already pushing the rules to the limits, don't break them too!
On the other hand, if someone mostly picks stuff for flavor/theme/RP reasons, and they want something for those reasons that happens to be pretty powerful, then sure, it's not gonna break the campaign because they're not using it efficiently anyway, go ahead.
So I think the reasoning, and the player, matters a lot.
Depends on the reasoning! If they wanted a temp race switch to boost stats and switch back when they don't need that stat anymore, then no, make the best of what you got, the optimization is the challenge there. If there was a story that makes sense where they switch races and switch back, sure.
Interestingly, tool proficiency hoarding is the kind of thing that probably has more RP value than minmax value. I've found that in a party players tend to find ways to get checks to use their proficiency bonus anyway. Like, if someone's playing cards, if they've got "gaming set proficiency" they'll use that. ...but if they don't, they'll probably ask "hey, can I use my Performance skill here" and end up with their proficiency bonus anyway.
So again, if this was because a character kept running in to a need for tools that they don't have and thus wanted to keep picking them up so they can keep getting the bonus, no. If it makes sense in the story, sure.
Maybe... I'd have to figure out ahead of time what the strengths/weaknesses of this would be. I don't see how this would give you "combat safety" - maybe would let you use the teammate's movement to get in close, but I don't see how mechanically it would be any different than you just being next to them.
I'm leaning towards allowing it, but feeling some skepticism because you're describing this as a combat optimization, and I don't see how it is. That makes me feel like there's some gotcha I'm missing.
Sure, seems pretty cool, works for me. I don't see anything you could do with a head as a focus that you couldn't do with a necklace as a focus. Might make for some super freaky interactions if you ever need to cast spells in town...
No.
Thing is, balancing that is bloody difficult. The player will naturally do their best to have the weakness not matter at all, and so as a DM you might have to be super heavy-handed and force the weakness to matter. Like, "weakness to poison" - now, to make that matter, the DM has to keep throwing poison opponents at the party. And if it's a spellcaster that has this weakness, then maybe they stay in the back and try not to get hit anyway! And so now either the PC has gotten themselves free power for no reason, or the DM's spending the whole campaign trying to mess with them with poison to make their weakness matter and that's no fun for anybody.
Look, the game ALREADY has ways to get more powerful things - leveling up. And there's tradeoffs, in the form of your class and subclass and feature choices. Pick from those!
No - unless it's the capstone to the campaign, in the sense that you becoming a lich is the end goal you're working for and that's when you "Retire" the character and start a new one.
It comes down to - why are you asking?
If the reason is to make your character more powerful, then I'd recommend trying your best to do that within the rules. There's plenty of people discussing builds and optimization here, go and min-max to your heart's content within RAW. Don't ask for ways to go beyond RAW.
If you're trying to get a cool character concept and aren't worrying about optimization, sure, ask away, work with your DM to find something that'll be cool.
The biggest guideline is whether the change will cause the character hog the spotlight. Some changes will cause a mechanical imbalance that will leave some people overshadowed, other changes will cause a narrative imbalance, where the story is forced to follow a particular character. (such as making your character a lich who would need the souls of other creatures to survive)
Sometimes it's fun to focus on a single character's story for a while, but if you're going to do it, all the characters need to get their turn being the center of attention.
I couldn't have asked for a better bombardment of advice! This is the most helpful forum I have ever been on. It really reflects the awesome vibe of dnd and its players xd.
Thank you all for the advice. I will take it all into proper consideration. I think I've got a good feel now for that line of fairness I was looking for. Aweome stuff ^^.
And have a great day!
If you're doing it because of role playing, and because it fits into the story that the DM is trying to tell, then it's great.
If you're doing it because you want to be more powerful, and you're trying to impose your character's story onto the story that the DM is trying to tell, it's not great.
Before you come up with your character's story arc, make sure that you learn about the campaign. Does becoming a good lich seem like a natural result from the story arc of the campaign? Or is it just you trying to superimpose your idea onto the DMs campaign?
The key in how to do this is that the player should not be coming to the DM and saying "this is what I have in mind" and then presenting the DM with a bunch of specific changes. The way it works is that the player comes to the DM with an idea, and they work together to find the specific ways to make it work. That way the DM can find a way to take your idea and fit it into the campaign that he's writing. That way it seems natural when it happens, and it's not just "oh, this powergamer got the DM to give him these superpowers that don't make any sense for the campaign that we're in." The key is to work with your DM to design the character, rather than giving your DM the specific character design.
It's very dangerous to start asking the DM to give your character special abilities that make you more powerful, because this can ruin games. When you get the DM to make your character much more powerful, and everyone else's characters are much less powerful by comparison, it takes a lot of the fun out of the game for your allies. It would be like having an adventuring party where the DM's best friend is level 10 and everyone else in the party is level 3. If everyone was level 3, the game would still be fun. But if one person is level 10 and everyone else is level 3, the game is a lot less fun. You want to avoid trying to game the system to make your character more powerful, because not only will that make the DM feel like you're trying to bully him, but it will make all of your party members feel like you're trying to hog the attention and be the focus of the game.
Don't just ask yourself how the DM would feel about you coming up with all of these changes that you have in mind for your character (especially if they're not at all related to the campaign). Also ask yourself how your teammates would feel if your character got all of these special perks, while their characters were just normal characters.
The biggest reasons for asking all of this is to make sure that I am being fair and not overshadowing anyone else on the team or harming the campaign. The way the current campaign is going, we haven't been told anything about the world around us yet and are basically on a 'tutorial island'. We've done 5 sessions so far and reached level 2. I have actually dmed 3 of those sessions because the dm has been busy with irl stuff. I've been keeping everyone happy and having fun on the island with side stories while the actual dm got stuff sorted irl and they have now begun prepping some proper stuff. That said, it is a totally home brew campaign that doesn't seem to have a main plot yet. Because of all of this combined with the likelihood that I am the only one on the team min/maxing on such an obsessive level xd, I am making sure to tread very carefully while having fun with my maths.
I also happen to be the only spellcaster and only healer on the team so I'm doing everything I can to be a great healer and utility support (and the only one with aoe damage xd) while also not stealing the spotlight for having the only non martial pc on the team. We've had great fun so far and I wanna help keep it that way while still enjoying what I can do with my character. For example, I plan to be a bit of a summoner later (for backstory reasons) once I've properly filled the healer role ^^. As someone who plans to be a summoner, that's one reason why I suggested the Find Steed spell as a possible boon if I could have earned it later. Since my character is the most vulnerable and highest value target for being the only healer and only one that doesn't wear heavy armor or at least medium armor, I have to tread insanely carefully in combat and thought Find Steed might help my pc with some extra self safety. I personally enjoy the challenge of figuring out how to handle it as a member of the team lol. I know that if I die in combat that things might go bad for the team really fast xd.
For reference, our team composition is a half elf rogue, 2 human fighters, a dragonborn barbarian, and me the Mark of the Storm half elf divine soul sorcerer xd. I went for ds sorc since they still have access to the full cleric spell list, but can also be fun for my style as a role player. I plan to get a 1 level dip in hexblade warlock so I can have the very very much needed medium armor prof, as well as slowly using converted spell slots on quickening Eldrich blasts to save the rest of my spell slots healing my team where needed. I'm stretched pretty thin to fit the healer, utility support and aoe roles (with fireball being sorc and wiz exclusive). I still like it though and no party has to be perfect since its mainly about the role play. The dm did say the campaign was going to be light difficulty anyway since its the first campaign for most of us so I'm looking forward to it ^^. I am looking forward to using my min/maxing powers to keep the team and team spirit alive hahaha.
I would be OK with giving a free tool proficiency. Beyond that I'd following the training rules. If you wanted to start the campaign with them - no. But in the game there could be ways to gift the knowledge magically or we can time-skip if the story calls for it and you can learn during the downtime as per training rules. It's still something earned in game though - if you want is as a reward, sure, but that means you won't get the magic items or gold.
Race change is fine as long as it isn't something too common - and if there is a good story reason why. Reincarnate spell comes to mind as one way. As long as you're not expecting to change race lots of times and it's not so you can get the best racial racial features for what you expect to face, it's fine.
Sure.
As a homebrew starting race where your other racial features are more limited and stuff I'd consider it. If this is to be "in addition" to what your race can already do, then "no" with exception of late-level boons. In either case it would offer advantage to intimidation checks when headless, a chance to frighten people who see you remove your head and move headlessly - but only on those who have not seen it before, spells can be targeted from head or body depending on spell. But there'd be limitations: you still only see and hear from the head so your body is considered blind and deaf when interacting with things your head cannot see and hear, the head must remain within 100 ft of the body - once it goes past that limit you have a number of turns equal to your Con mod to get back within that limit or you instantly die. When you remove the head your Hit Points are separated: 3/4 rounded down to body and 1/4 rounded up to the head. If either drop to 0 HP you are considered Dying and both become incapacitated. If both drop to 0 HP you die instantly.
Even with the limitations it's powerful so it must either be your race or an Epic Boon.
Depends on the spell and reasons why. Find Steed? Sure. I actually don't agree with that being a Paladin only spell. Find Greater Steed I'm not sure about - maybe I'd open it to wizards and warlocks But by the level of getting this, I'd be fine if the entire party could fly so cool flying mounts? Sure. Maybe for the whole party as a special reward or something. No weakness required. They're just mounts - easy to factor, and even flying ones from greater steed are fine - I'm not the type of DM who hates flying characters. Quite frankly I'd be down with every character having flying from the start. It's so easy to deal with. And hey, enemies can fly too. An aerial battle in the sky would be totally cool.
Sure.
I absolutely detest fixed alignment. I don't agree that undead must be evil or that lichdom can only be achieved with evil acts. And you can technically achieve it through the Rules - as - Written in more than one way. Personally it seems an odd choice - if the idea is immortality then the Clone spell will suffice or perhaps the Epic Boon of Immortality? Fine either way. After all, you could be completely unkillable and I'm OK with that in the late game - because I can have enemies just as powerful and with the specially selected magic items and limitless gold - so one villain with a Diamond spell gem casting as an action the Imprisonment spell with the Portent feature? Well, you succeeded in immortality, but now you're trapped forever. Oh well. Might have you make a temp character as the party tries to rescue you.
Lichdom and pursuits of immortality are late level things and easy for a DM to deal with.
I mean hey, I could give everyone in the party the ability to cast Wish 10 times per day without ever suffering the negative drawbacks or risk of losing the spell forever. I'll still be able to make enemies more powerful than you - I'm the DM. So granting lichdom at late level? Piece of cake. Granting age-immortality? No prob, heck start the game with it if you want - it has absolutely zero effect on gameplay.
--
I tend to be rather liberal - as long as everyone is equal in their own way and happy, I can work with a lot.
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I'd actually say that a good lich is, out of the example you've listed, probably the eassiet to get away with. But let's start from the top.
Tool proficiency? Sure. It's just a matter of time and money and if you can figure out a suitable substitute for that, why not. Race switch? Depending on how it's done. Resurrection or polymorph is probably the easist but you wouldn't get any benefits from your old race.
No. First of all, "combat safety" is not a legitimate rp reason. Combat is inherently dangerous and the upsides you would get is not matched by the downsides. I would probably allow you to play a halfing that has elven ancestry but rules-wise you are a halfling. If you want to play a small race, play a small race. If you want to play a half-elf, play a half-elf. They are size medium.
Nope. It would not work. Again, if you want to play a race with a certain special feature, play that race.
None of the weaknesses you mention or comparable to the huge bonus of a free spell, especially not a powerful one such as Find Steed. There is no mechanical way of balancing "Free awesome spell" with "people might not like me". How would you even make sure that "weakness" is handled by the DM? Should you roll a D6 every time you talk to someone and on a 1 they attack you?
Most features and abilities are obtainable (through magic items, if nothing else) so I really don't see a need for anything else. But if you want what you're asking about the weakness must actually balance the bonus. You want to cast Find Steed? Sure, but your Max HP is lowered by the amount of HP you roll for the Steed (for as long as your steed is manifested) and your gain a level of Exhaustion due to the sheer effort of using your own life force to create an entire new being.
If you can be an evil Paladon you can be a good Lich. But would a good person be able to live with what they have done to become a Lich and still keep on being Good? How would you atone for your actions?
Cheers!
Dealing with what they've done in the past is the easy part of being a good lich. The more important question is how do you continue to be good while devouring people's eternal souls?
Yeah, that too...