First, the caveat, "Bad" is referring specifically to mechanical effectiveness. Ease of play, personal preference based, cool. Another caveat, just the *base* Fighter abilities are very good, so by default so would be a Champion Fighter.
With those aside, let's look at just the subclass abilities.
Level 3 Improved Critical: You get to crit on a 19 or 20. Let's look at the math with a Greatsword. Everyone already crits on a 20. You also crit on a 19. That is a 1/20 chance per roll that the ability will add to your damage (or 5% of the time) for an extra 2d6. 2d6 average roll = 7 damage.
Greatsword: 7 x 0.05 = 0.35 average extra damage per attack. Glaive = 0.275 extra damage. Longsword: 0.225
Level 7 Remarkable Athlete: you can add half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus. In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier.
These abilities are way too situational, and (almost) entirely utility. A Level 7 subclass ability should be something that has way more impact on the game. I could totally see Remarkable Athlete as a level 3 ability - as a compliment to the main level 3 ability.
Level 10 Additional Fighting Style: Unlike a lot of people I don't hate this one. It's nice to have some versatility, like bolstering your ranged attacks, or adding +1 to your AC. I just hate it as the only ability you get at level 10.
Level 15 Superior Critial: Sounds amazing on paper until you do the math. Normal greatsword = +0.7 average extra damage per attack. At level 15! Granted, you could have flame tongue, or be playing a Half-Orc, there are ways to help this poor ability. But I've done the math on a lot of combinations. It's always disappointing. I'm sure someone can theory craft a special build/weapon combination to make this not disappointing, but if you have to do that - the ability is abysmal.
Level 18 Survivor: If you're below half your hit points, you regain 5+ Con hit points every turn. I've never gotten nearly that high level in a campaign, so I don't really have an opinion on this one. Maybe it's amazing, or maybe enemies are doing so much damage that what you gain back is not very impactful. But even giving it the benefit of the doubt, who wants to wait until level 18 (if you get there at all) to get a good ability?
It's not bad at all. It's mechanically effective. People often think it's boring.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I played one to 11, and I assure you, it's not mechanically abysmal. It's dry and boring though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I played one to 11, and I assure you, it's not mechanically abysmal. It's dry and boring though.
Any Fighter class is effective because the *base* Fighter is effective. I showed you the math.
With a greatsword (best case scenario) Improved Critical averages + 0.35 extra damage per attack.
In contrast, just the Dueling Fighting Style gives you +2 extra damage per hit. Even if you’re only hitting on half of your attacks, it’s still nearly 3X the additional damage. And the reality is you’re probably hitting a fair bit more than half the time, so it’s even worse.
Most optimizers I have talked to consider the baseline for damage to be a warlock spamming eldritch blast, with agonizing blast. At level 11, that's 3 beams at d10+5 or 31.5 DPR, assuming 100% hit rate.
Champion fighter with a longsword will also hit three times at d10+5 each for 31.5DPR...exactly at baseline. That doesn't account for any crits or fighting style, which will only push the champion over baseline. A greatsword pushes damage to 3x 2d6+5=36 DPR, which is above the baseline not accounting for crits or fighting style. With PAM and a halberd, a champion has 3 swings at d10+5 and 1 at D4+5 to push DPR to 39 DPR, not factoring crits or fighting styles, also above baseline.
My lame DW champion fighter with DW hit 4x d8+5 = 38 DPR. Again, well above baseline, although that factors in my DW fighting style too. So to be fair, I will remove those 5 points of damage, which drops me to 33 DPR...still above baseline.
TL/DR champion fighters are fine. They may not be up to snuff with other fighters, but you can play one and you're not going to suck. The base is so solid that you don't /need/ anything else. Anything else is gravy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Most optimizers I have talked to consider the baseline for damage to be a warlock spamming eldritch blast, with agonizing blast. At level 11, that's 3 beams at d10+5 or 31.5 DPR, assuming 100% hit rate.
Champion fighter with a longsword will also hit three times at d10+5 each for 31.5DPR...exactly at baseline. That doesn't account for any crits or fighting style, which will only push the champion over baseline. A greatsword pushes damage to 3x 2d6+5=36 DPR, which is above the baseline not accounting for crits or fighting style. With PAM and a halberd, a champion has 3 swings at d10+5 and 1 at D4+5 to push DPR to 39 DPR, not factoring crits or fighting styles, also above baseline.
My lame DW champion fighter with DW hit 4x d8+5 = 38 DPR. Again, well above baseline, although that factors in my DW fighting style too. So to be fair, I will remove those 5 points of damage, which drops me to 33 DPR...still above baseline.
TL/DR champion fighters are fine. They may not be up to snuff with other fighters, but you can play one and you're not going to suck. The base is so solid that you don't /need/ anything else. Anything else is gravy.
In my very beginning of f the OP: “Another caveat, just the *base* Fighter abilities are very good, so by default so would be a Champion Fighter.”
Very, very little of a Champion Fighter’s damage has ANYTHING to do with the Champion Subclass. ALL of the damage you brought up applies to ALL Fighters.
How much damage does JUST the subclass add? Practically ZERO.
They’re not that bad. Maybe they don’t have a place in a power gamer build (unless it’s critfishing: champions are built for that), but I think they’re quite solid. My best and most experienced player’s favorite class-subclass is Champion Fighter, and one of his characters still holds the record for most damage in a single round...despite a one-handed sword and the Defense fighting style! He just likes classes that let him focus on roleplaying and still be effective, and Champion is a solid choice for that.
You're forgetting that a crit hits regardless of AC. That means that 3/20 attacks hit regardless of the enemy AC. It could be 30 and your 18 still hits. This means that not only you apply the extra damage more often, you hit more often (mostly in higher tiers, lower tiers won't have that much anyway).
Another thing: Fighter was never the guy to 1 hit kill things. They can use a lot of small attacks that deal little damage. That's their point. That's why they have so many extra attacks and action surge. More attacks+18-20 is crit=a lot of damage.
And lastly, add the GWM feat and use it all the time. Hell, dip 2 levels into barb to have advantage on the attacks. The -5 to hit wouldn't matter on a crit, so even on an 18, you'll deal 4d6+10+str with no other buffs.
Conclusion: While I won't play this class as I prefer the battle master due to it's style, it is by no means bad.
It sounds like you've already formed your opinion but here's my two cents:
They're not bad, whether they're carried by the base class chassis or not, they're not bad and just by having any features they are better than the base chassis alone, I personally find them boring because I like having resources to budget.
If you're playing it for any reason other than it being simple to learn then you need to lean into it's features:
-Seek sources of advantage, be it shoving people prone, the flanking mechanic, grabbing a familiar whatever. If you're just sitting around waiting for 19s to show up then yes it will be underwhelming
-Make the crits count, roll as many dice as you can, be a Half Orc, use a Great Axe, pick up Hunter's Mark etc.
The level 7 feature looks lack lustre at first, you need to remember that it also applies to initiative, which is a Dex check that you can't be proficient in.
Plan out your Fighting styles ahead of time, for example it's entirely possible that the Dueling and Throw styles stack for +4 damage on thrown weapons. The Blindsense fighting style can let you leverage racially acquired Darkness or thrive in Darkness cast by team mates whilst still having a damage centric style.
You can totally be a budget Battle Master at the same time and that's a good thing, grab Martial Adept and Superior Technique and leverage those additional dice and effects in tangent with your Improved Critical.
You're forgetting that a crit hits regardless of AC. That means that 3/20 attacks hit regardless of the enemy AC. It could be 30 and your 18 still hits. This means that not only you apply the extra damage more often, you hit more often (mostly in higher tiers, lower tiers won't have that much anyway).
Another thing: Fighter was never the guy to 1 hit kill things. They can use a lot of small attacks that deal little damage. That's their point. That's why they have so many extra attacks and action surge. More attacks+18-20 is crit=a lot of damage.
And lastly, add the GWM feat and use it all the time. Hell, dip 2 levels into barb to have advantage on the attacks. The -5 to hit wouldn't matter on a crit, so even on an 18, you'll deal 4d6+10+str with no other buffs.
Conclusion: While I won't play this class as I prefer the battle master due to it's style, it is by no means bad.
That is a perfectly valid point, but situations where a natural 19 won’t score a hit are so rare that’s pretty negligible. GWM damage is not affected by crits.
Multiclassing into Barbian does improve it, but three points on that. First, you shouldn’t have to multiclass or make a very specific build to make a subclass ability effective. Second, there are always sacrifices with multiclassing. Third, the numbers still don’t amount to much.
Rolling with advantage you will roll a 20 9.75% of the time. You will roll at least a 19 - 19% of the time. This is a 9.25% improvement. 0.0925 x 7 = 0.6475 average extra damage per attack with a greatsword.
They’re not that bad. Maybe they don’t have a place in a power gamer build (unless it’s critfishing: champions are built for that), but I think they’re quite solid. My best and most experienced player’s favorite class-subclass is Champion Fighter, and one of his characters still holds the record for most damage in a single round...despite a one-handed sword and the Defense fighting style! He just likes classes that let him focus on roleplaying and still be effective, and Champion is a solid choice for that.
Objectively and when you crunch the numbers they really are that bad. Champion Fighters ARE effective, but only because they are Fighters. The base class alone is effective.
Come to think of it the Champion is also the perfect candidate for the new weapon feats that impose addtional effects/conditions on crits, Tasha's added a lot of mileage to the Champion.
Come to think of it the Champion is also the perfect candidate for the new weapon feats that impose addtional effects/conditions on crits, Tasha's added a lot of mileage to the Champion.
Edit: I looked at a couple of them. Piercer would still make the numbers bad, albeit better. Slasher is actually very interesting...
Essentially, with Champion an additional 5% of your attack rolls will cause the enemy to have disadvantage on their next round. Considering the abysmal damage the subclass is still giving you, I still think it put champion toward the bottom, but at least at that point it’s not completely worthless.
And still,, a subclass ability should not have to rely on a very specific build to be effective. I’m glad I looked at that though, because that is a very interesting feat, especially considering it also gives you +1 to a stat.
Edit 2: I was thinking it was all the attacks, and the fighter would really benefit from having multi attack. It’s only once per turn. So only an additional 5% of your TURNS has this effect. Blah.
Slasher
With Slasher, you can increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1, up to a maximum of 20. Then once per turn, when you deal slashing damage to a creature, you can reduce the target’s speed by 10 feet until the start of your next turn. Finally when you score a critical hit with slashing damage, you grievously wound the targeted creature. Giving the target a disadvantage to their attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Come to think of it the Champion is also the perfect candidate for the new weapon feats that impose addtional effects/conditions on crits, Tasha's added a lot of mileage to the Champion.
Like what?
Feats that get better on crits:
-Crusher (attack rolls are made with advantage until the start of your next turn)
-Piercer (additional damage die)
-Slasher (disadvantage on their attack rolls)
A Champion can trigger the additional benefits more reliably than any other, additional Fighting Styles will always benefit the one subclass that gets to choose two styles, Poisoner allows for BA application of poison to multiply the damage die on improved crits etc.
You're forgetting that a crit hits regardless of AC. That means that 3/20 attacks hit regardless of the enemy AC. It could be 30 and your 18 still hits. This means that not only you apply the extra damage more often, you hit more often (mostly in higher tiers, lower tiers won't have that much anyway).
Another thing: Fighter was never the guy to 1 hit kill things. They can use a lot of small attacks that deal little damage. That's their point. That's why they have so many extra attacks and action surge. More attacks+18-20 is crit=a lot of damage.
And lastly, add the GWM feat and use it all the time. Hell, dip 2 levels into barb to have advantage on the attacks. The -5 to hit wouldn't matter on a crit, so even on an 18, you'll deal 4d6+10+str with no other buffs.
Conclusion: While I won't play this class as I prefer the battle master due to it's style, it is by no means bad.
That is a perfectly valid point, but situations where a natural 19 won’t score a hit are so rare that’s pretty negligible. GWM damage is not affected by crits.
Multiclassing into Barbian does improve it, but three points on that. First, you shouldn’t have to multiclass or make a very specific build to make a subclass ability effective. Second, there are always sacrifices with multiclassing. Third, the numbers still don’t amount to much.
Rolling with advantage you will roll a 20 9.75% of the time. You will roll at least a 19 - 19% of the time. This is a 9.25% improvement. 0.0925 x 7 = 0.6475 average extra damage per attack with a greatsword.
GWP doesn't add extra dmg from critting but critting hits despite the -5 to hit. That brings up another point - low str fighters (Idk why they're low but let's say they are) will get a lot from this.
True, nat 19 will usually hit, but not at high levels.
Now sure, when you avg the damage, it's never high. Why, because if the average was high then it'd be broken.
Also, imagine you're playing pvp as a lvl 20 character. Some classes can have really high AC. An Artificer on lvl 3 using point buy (not even rolling so highest stat is 17 at most) can get to 22 AC already. Landing those crits is very important.
Come to think of it the Champion is also the perfect candidate for the new weapon feats that impose addtional effects/conditions on crits, Tasha's added a lot of mileage to the Champion.
Like what?
Feats that get better on crits:
-Crusher (attack rolls are made with advantage until the start of your next turn)
-Piercer (additional damage die)
-Slasher (disadvantage on their attack rolls)
A Champion can trigger the additional benefits more reliably than any other, additional Fighting Styles will always benefit the one subclass that gets to choose two styles, Poisoner allows for BA application of poison to multiply the damage die on improved crits etc.
Numbers wise they still don’t amount to much. Again, with a great sword Improved Critical is an additional 0.35 average extra damage per attack. Even doubling that is negligible extra damage.
The causing disadvantage looked great at first until I read it more closely. It’s only one attack per turn, which means Improved Critical + that feat (when compared to just taking that feat) adds that effect in 1 turn per 20 turns.
You're forgetting that a crit hits regardless of AC. That means that 3/20 attacks hit regardless of the enemy AC. It could be 30 and your 18 still hits. This means that not only you apply the extra damage more often, you hit more often (mostly in higher tiers, lower tiers won't have that much anyway).
Another thing: Fighter was never the guy to 1 hit kill things. They can use a lot of small attacks that deal little damage. That's their point. That's why they have so many extra attacks and action surge. More attacks+18-20 is crit=a lot of damage.
And lastly, add the GWM feat and use it all the time. Hell, dip 2 levels into barb to have advantage on the attacks. The -5 to hit wouldn't matter on a crit, so even on an 18, you'll deal 4d6+10+str with no other buffs.
Conclusion: While I won't play this class as I prefer the battle master due to it's style, it is by no means bad.
That is a perfectly valid point, but situations where a natural 19 won’t score a hit are so rare that’s pretty negligible. GWM damage is not affected by crits.
Multiclassing into Barbian does improve it, but three points on that. First, you shouldn’t have to multiclass or make a very specific build to make a subclass ability effective. Second, there are always sacrifices with multiclassing. Third, the numbers still don’t amount to much.
Rolling with advantage you will roll a 20 9.75% of the time. You will roll at least a 19 - 19% of the time. This is a 9.25% improvement. 0.0925 x 7 = 0.6475 average extra damage per attack with a greatsword.
GWP doesn't add extra dmg from critting but critting hits despite the -5 to hit. That brings up another point - low str fighters (Idk why they're low but let's say they are) will get a lot from this.
True, nat 19 will usually hit, but not at high levels.
Now sure, when you avg the damage, it's never high. Why, because if the average was high then it'd be broken.
Also, imagine you're playing pvp as a lvl 20 character. Some classes can have really high AC. An Artificer on lvl 3 using point buy (not even rolling so highest stat is 17 at most) can get to 22 AC already. Landing those crits is very important.
I’ve never played super high levels, but if as a fighter it’s common that you’re literally depending on a Crit in order to hit, that’s disappointing. Like all of your turns are 19 misses and 1 hit? I find that hard to believe.
It’s a valid thing to bring up, but I think that is too rare of a situation. Even if what you are saying is true about the very high levels, that’s a long time to wait for your most major ability to not be negligible.
First, the caveat, "Bad" is referring specifically to mechanical effectiveness. Ease of play, personal preference based, cool. Another caveat, just the *base* Fighter abilities are very good, so by default so would be a Champion Fighter.
With those aside, let's look at just the subclass abilities.
Level 3 Improved Critical: You get to crit on a 19 or 20. Let's look at the math with a Greatsword. Everyone already crits on a 20. You also crit on a 19. That is a 1/20 chance per roll that the ability will add to your damage (or 5% of the time) for an extra 2d6. 2d6 average roll = 7 damage.
Greatsword: 7 x 0.05 = 0.35 average extra damage per attack. Glaive = 0.275 extra damage. Longsword: 0.225
Level 7 Remarkable Athlete: you can add half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus. In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier.
These abilities are way too situational, and (almost) entirely utility. A Level 7 subclass ability should be something that has way more impact on the game. I could totally see Remarkable Athlete as a level 3 ability - as a compliment to the main level 3 ability.
Level 10 Additional Fighting Style: Unlike a lot of people I don't hate this one. It's nice to have some versatility, like bolstering your ranged attacks, or adding +1 to your AC. I just hate it as the only ability you get at level 10.
Level 15 Superior Critial: Sounds amazing on paper until you do the math. Normal greatsword = +0.7 average extra damage per attack. At level 15! Granted, you could have flame tongue, or be playing a Half-Orc, there are ways to help this poor ability. But I've done the math on a lot of combinations. It's always disappointing. I'm sure someone can theory craft a special build/weapon combination to make this not disappointing, but if you have to do that - the ability is abysmal.
Level 18 Survivor: If you're below half your hit points, you regain 5+ Con hit points every turn. I've never gotten nearly that high level in a campaign, so I don't really have an opinion on this one. Maybe it's amazing, or maybe enemies are doing so much damage that what you gain back is not very impactful. But even giving it the benefit of the doubt, who wants to wait until level 18 (if you get there at all) to get a good ability?
It's not bad at all. It's mechanically effective. People often think it's boring.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
When you do the math you discover it’s mechanically abysmal. It sounds really good before then.
I played one to 11, and I assure you, it's not mechanically abysmal. It's dry and boring though.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Any Fighter class is effective because the *base* Fighter is effective. I showed you the math.
With a greatsword (best case scenario) Improved Critical averages + 0.35 extra damage per attack.
In contrast, just the Dueling Fighting Style gives you +2 extra damage per hit. Even if you’re only hitting on half of your attacks, it’s still nearly 3X the additional damage. And the reality is you’re probably hitting a fair bit more than half the time, so it’s even worse.
You can’t refute math with a personal anecdote.
Most optimizers I have talked to consider the baseline for damage to be a warlock spamming eldritch blast, with agonizing blast. At level 11, that's 3 beams at d10+5 or 31.5 DPR, assuming 100% hit rate.
Champion fighter with a longsword will also hit three times at d10+5 each for 31.5DPR...exactly at baseline. That doesn't account for any crits or fighting style, which will only push the champion over baseline. A greatsword pushes damage to 3x 2d6+5=36 DPR, which is above the baseline not accounting for crits or fighting style. With PAM and a halberd, a champion has 3 swings at d10+5 and 1 at D4+5 to push DPR to 39 DPR, not factoring crits or fighting styles, also above baseline.
My lame DW champion fighter with DW hit 4x d8+5 = 38 DPR. Again, well above baseline, although that factors in my DW fighting style too. So to be fair, I will remove those 5 points of damage, which drops me to 33 DPR...still above baseline.
TL/DR champion fighters are fine. They may not be up to snuff with other fighters, but you can play one and you're not going to suck. The base is so solid that you don't /need/ anything else. Anything else is gravy.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I've had the same experience as crzyhawk. They're not bad, especially with GWM and PAM/Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter, but they are very boring.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
In my very beginning of f the OP: “Another caveat, just the *base* Fighter abilities are very good, so by default so would be a Champion Fighter.”
Very, very little of a Champion Fighter’s damage has ANYTHING to do with the Champion Subclass. ALL of the damage you brought up applies to ALL Fighters.
How much damage does JUST the subclass add? Practically ZERO.
Yes you’ll have that same experience even if you don’t give your Fighter ANY of the Champion subclass abilities.
They’re not that bad. Maybe they don’t have a place in a power gamer build (unless it’s critfishing: champions are built for that), but I think they’re quite solid. My best and most experienced player’s favorite class-subclass is Champion Fighter, and one of his characters still holds the record for most damage in a single round...despite a one-handed sword and the Defense fighting style! He just likes classes that let him focus on roleplaying and still be effective, and Champion is a solid choice for that.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
You're forgetting that a crit hits regardless of AC. That means that 3/20 attacks hit regardless of the enemy AC. It could be 30 and your 18 still hits. This means that not only you apply the extra damage more often, you hit more often (mostly in higher tiers, lower tiers won't have that much anyway).
Another thing: Fighter was never the guy to 1 hit kill things. They can use a lot of small attacks that deal little damage. That's their point. That's why they have so many extra attacks and action surge. More attacks+18-20 is crit=a lot of damage.
And lastly, add the GWM feat and use it all the time. Hell, dip 2 levels into barb to have advantage on the attacks. The -5 to hit wouldn't matter on a crit, so even on an 18, you'll deal 4d6+10+str with no other buffs.
Conclusion: While I won't play this class as I prefer the battle master due to it's style, it is by no means bad.
Varielky | Emma
It sounds like you've already formed your opinion but here's my two cents:
They're not bad, whether they're carried by the base class chassis or not, they're not bad and just by having any features they are better than the base chassis alone, I personally find them boring because I like having resources to budget.
If you're playing it for any reason other than it being simple to learn then you need to lean into it's features:
-Seek sources of advantage, be it shoving people prone, the flanking mechanic, grabbing a familiar whatever. If you're just sitting around waiting for 19s to show up then yes it will be underwhelming
-Make the crits count, roll as many dice as you can, be a Half Orc, use a Great Axe, pick up Hunter's Mark etc.
The level 7 feature looks lack lustre at first, you need to remember that it also applies to initiative, which is a Dex check that you can't be proficient in.
Plan out your Fighting styles ahead of time, for example it's entirely possible that the Dueling and Throw styles stack for +4 damage on thrown weapons. The Blindsense fighting style can let you leverage racially acquired Darkness or thrive in Darkness cast by team mates whilst still having a damage centric style.
You can totally be a budget Battle Master at the same time and that's a good thing, grab Martial Adept and Superior Technique and leverage those additional dice and effects in tangent with your Improved Critical.
Subscribe to our channel for character builds, roleplay and DM tips: www.youtube.com/c/dorkforge
Interested in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything? Check out our playlist on Youtube
Please feel free to message us with any requests or build challenges!
That is a perfectly valid point, but situations where a natural 19 won’t score a hit are so rare that’s pretty negligible. GWM damage is not affected by crits.
Multiclassing into Barbian does improve it, but three points on that. First, you shouldn’t have to multiclass or make a very specific build to make a subclass ability effective. Second, there are always sacrifices with multiclassing. Third, the numbers still don’t amount to much.
Rolling with advantage you will roll a 20 9.75% of the time. You will roll at least a 19 - 19% of the time. This is a 9.25% improvement. 0.0925 x 7 = 0.6475 average extra damage per attack with a greatsword.
Objectively and when you crunch the numbers they really are that bad. Champion Fighters ARE effective, but only because they are Fighters. The base class alone is effective.
Come to think of it the Champion is also the perfect candidate for the new weapon feats that impose addtional effects/conditions on crits, Tasha's added a lot of mileage to the Champion.
Subscribe to our channel for character builds, roleplay and DM tips: www.youtube.com/c/dorkforge
Interested in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything? Check out our playlist on Youtube
Please feel free to message us with any requests or build challenges!
Edit: I looked at a couple of them. Piercer would still make the numbers bad, albeit better. Slasher is actually very interesting...
Essentially, with Champion an additional 5% of your attack rolls will cause the enemy to have disadvantage on their next round. Considering the abysmal damage the subclass is still giving you, I still think it put champion toward the bottom, but at least at that point it’s not completely worthless.
And still,, a subclass ability should not have to rely on a very specific build to be effective. I’m glad I looked at that though, because that is a very interesting feat, especially considering it also gives you +1 to a stat.
Edit 2: I was thinking it was all the attacks, and the fighter would really benefit from having multi attack. It’s only once per turn. So only an additional 5% of your TURNS has this effect. Blah.
Slasher
With Slasher, you can increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1, up to a maximum of 20. Then once per turn, when you deal slashing damage to a creature, you can reduce the target’s speed by 10 feet until the start of your next turn. Finally when you score a critical hit with slashing damage, you grievously wound the targeted creature. Giving the target a disadvantage to their attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Feats that get better on crits:
-Crusher (attack rolls are made with advantage until the start of your next turn)
-Piercer (additional damage die)
-Slasher (disadvantage on their attack rolls)
A Champion can trigger the additional benefits more reliably than any other, additional Fighting Styles will always benefit the one subclass that gets to choose two styles, Poisoner allows for BA application of poison to multiply the damage die on improved crits etc.
Subscribe to our channel for character builds, roleplay and DM tips: www.youtube.com/c/dorkforge
Interested in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything? Check out our playlist on Youtube
Please feel free to message us with any requests or build challenges!
GWP doesn't add extra dmg from critting but critting hits despite the -5 to hit. That brings up another point - low str fighters (Idk why they're low but let's say they are) will get a lot from this.
True, nat 19 will usually hit, but not at high levels.
Now sure, when you avg the damage, it's never high. Why, because if the average was high then it'd be broken.
Also, imagine you're playing pvp as a lvl 20 character. Some classes can have really high AC. An Artificer on lvl 3 using point buy (not even rolling so highest stat is 17 at most) can get to 22 AC already. Landing those crits is very important.
Varielky | Emma
Numbers wise they still don’t amount to much. Again, with a great sword Improved Critical is an additional 0.35 average extra damage per attack. Even doubling that is negligible extra damage.
The causing disadvantage looked great at first until I read it more closely. It’s only one attack per turn, which means Improved Critical + that feat (when compared to just taking that feat) adds that effect in 1 turn per 20 turns.
I’ve never played super high levels, but if as a fighter it’s common that you’re literally depending on a Crit in order to hit, that’s disappointing. Like all of your turns are 19 misses and 1 hit? I find that hard to believe.
It’s a valid thing to bring up, but I think that is too rare of a situation. Even if what you are saying is true about the very high levels, that’s a long time to wait for your most major ability to not be negligible.
A level 3 ability should be effective at level 3.