I think having something brutish for the fighter is something worth looking in to, however from what I've seen of the Brute subclass it needs to be more removed from what the Champion can do. Both subclasses get Extra Combat Style and Survivor, and I feel like those similarities between the two of them make Brute appear to be "Like champion, but you do more damage", which I worry would give people very little reason to even play a Champion-Fighter. I like that they are trying to make more simple fighter subclasses, but I feel as though more needs to be done with Brute so that it is thoroughly distinct from the fighter's other simple subclass in the case that it does get made into a subclass of its own.
I wound up seeing the video on the subclasses before checking the Unearthed Arcana, and the whole time I was watching it and waiting for them to talk about Brute I was hoping it would be a rogue subclass. The rogue needs something like that for its more muscley thuggish characters, and sneak attack being solely dexterity-attack exclusive by the core rules severely limits the ability to play that kind of character.
I see a lot of people commenting on how "At level 20, Brute is absolutely broken compared to the other options!". I'd just like to ask how often you people actually play at level 20, because I as a player have never reached that point legitimately. It seems like a lot of you are judging it in a white room scenario. At points where the majority of people who would use it would play, its basically hunter's mark or weaker. Sure its technically better than the barbarian rage damage, except to me the rage seems like the major benefit would be THE RESISTANCES TO DAMAGE rather than a mere +2ish damage. Now I will say that it stacking with Hunter's Mark/Hex DOES get a bit silly, but even so for most people its not nearly as broken as it's made out as. Brutish durability is again pretty good, people comparing it to the paladin aura of protection, except once more I think you have all forgotten that the aura AFFECTS OTHER PLAYERS. "Oh the brutish durability gives a .5 higher average bonus!" well that seems like a fair trade off, and paladin can scale higher with more charisma investment. +15 damage on a crit? great that makes the crits special, but at that point 15 isn't THAT much.
Circle of spores just seems great. Amazing flavour, an interesting replacer to wildshape (Finally something that can somewhat compete with moon!). Halo of spores honestly seems really cool to me. Fungal zombies, what game does that remind you of...? Spreading spores seems a bit meh, but if you can hold a chokepoint being able to get ticks for days makes this a situational but possibly great ability. Fungal body also seems pretty cool (Also assassins eat your heart out)
School of invention seems... Pretty ok. The arcano armour I guess is useful for the first levels... until you cast mage armour. Seriously why is it only 12? Reckless casting seems pretty sweet. I see a lot of people being all like "But wildmagic is the random magic subclass", despite them being fairly different in purpose and flavour. Its controlled chaos that you can manipulate, and therefore I like it more. Alchemic casting got a hard nerf from last time we saw it, but its still a pretty cool feature. I don't imagine the Prodigious Inspiration feature being that great, but maybe in an emergency you need to swap something that you decided not to prepare... nope still seems silly. Controlled Chaos, the reason that this is definitely better than wildmagic.
The fighter subclass is so drastically overpowered it seems like an intern wrote it.
!said without playtesting it at all....I love it. No explanation of "what" makes it "overpowered" just stating that it is. That is about as helpful as it is descriptive....not at all. Perhaps explain what about it feels or comes across overpowered to you in your opinion AND why. Is it the extra die roll to attack damage? is it the die roll to saving throws? the hunter ranger can get a 1d6 and 1d8 combined on every attack, champion fighters crit more often, samurais can get on demand advantage even through an action surge and can get 1 extra attack at that for 9 total attacks in 1 turn, all paladins can give their charisma mod upwards of +5 without magic items to all saving throws including death saving throws to all allies within their aura. So sincerely I ask you to please tell me what you think is so overpowered about the Brute subclass and why you feel it is.
I see a lot of people commenting on how "At level 20, Brute is absolutely broken compared to the other options!". I'd just like to ask how often you people actually play at level 20, because I as a player have never reached that point legitimately. It seems like a lot of you are judging it in a white room scenario. At points where the majority of people who would use it would play, its basically hunter's mark or weaker. Sure its technically better than the barbarian rage damage, except to me the rage seems like the major benefit would be THE RESISTANCES TO DAMAGE rather than a mere +2ish damage. Now I will say that it stacking with Hunter's Mark/Hex DOES get a bit silly, but even so for most people its not nearly as broken as it's made out as. Brutish durability is again pretty good, people comparing it to the paladin aura of protection, except once more I think you have all forgotten that the aura AFFECTS OTHER PLAYERS. "Oh the brutish durability gives a .5 higher average bonus!" well that seems like a fair trade off, and paladin can scale higher with more charisma investment. +15 damage on a crit? great that makes the crits special, but at that point 15 isn't THAT much.
Circle of spores just seems great. Amazing flavour, an interesting replacer to wildshape (Finally something that can somewhat compete with moon!). Halo of spores honestly seems really cool to me. Fungal zombies, what game does that remind you of...? Spreading spores seems a bit meh, but if you can hold a chokepoint being able to get ticks for days makes this a situational but possibly great ability. Fungal body also seems pretty cool (Also assassins eat your heart out)
School of invention seems... Pretty ok. The arcano armour I guess is useful for the first levels... until you cast mage armour. Seriously why is it only 12? Reckless casting seems pretty sweet. I see a lot of people being all like "But wildmagic is the random magic subclass", despite them being fairly different in purpose and flavour. Its controlled chaos that you can manipulate, and therefore I like it more. Alchemic casting got a hard nerf from last time we saw it, but its still a pretty cool feature. I don't imagine the Prodigious Inspiration feature being that great, but maybe in an emergency you need to swap something that you decided not to prepare... nope still seems silly. Controlled Chaos, the reason that this is definitely better than wildmagic.
I think a part of what people are forgetting is that at level 20 you are supposed to be effectively a Demi-god.....you should feel over powered at 20...its how the game is intended upon creation. Its the pinnacle of leveling.....so instead of trying to bring down anyone that actually has that feeling of a pinnacle ability....how about we talk about buffing those with weak pinnacles up to the rest? ie - bard really needs better pinnacle as well as others.
All 3 subclasses look fun and different to me. The wizard archetype misses the theme a little by only wearing light armor but its a step in the right direction. Not fulfilling a tony stark fantasy with this one yet though.
The Brute is missing a huge opportunity here. The name of the archetype is "The Brute". Its set up is already built to be advantageous to two weapon fighting. So why not instead of just giving set die rolls that grow upwards of 1d10.....just give them the ability to wield 2 handed weapons they are proficient with in 1 hand. a 2d6 is less than a 1d6 better than a 1d8. So although it would be stronger at level 3....it would be weaker at the high end.....allowing you all more room for more interesting additional abilities as you level up in the archetype. Not to mention being able to wield 2 handed weapons in 1 hand is a hugely popular theme that Diablo 2 cashed in on majorly with their barbarian class and diablo 3 kind of has with crusader using a 2 hand weapon and a shield. You could even do that....allow the Brute to use a 2 handed weapon with a shield if you don't want them dual wielding 2 handed weapons. Its a massively cool/fun thematically and for RP purposes as well.
Hmm... Brute? Not really a fan of. I kind of wish they went the Forge Cleric route, and gave you just increasing magic enhancements on your weapons and armor. Quick, simple, elegant.
I want to like the Circle of Spores, I really do, but I find the focus on necrotic spells to be odd. Spores aren't necrotic, they're still alive. You tell me spore magic, I don't start thinking of Chill Hand. And I would like to see some notes that creatures raised by spore mages don't count as undead, but rather still living beings. IE - dominate person / monster abilities, not just raise undead
Invention seems cool, but I'd rather see more magi-tech and less random tables. Random tables just don't feel very wizardly to me. Its like they're trying to make this the crazy-tinker-gnome subclass, much like the forge domain is the dwarf cleric subclass, and trickster cleric is the drow cleric subclass. But, in return, I don't feel like we're actually building or creating anything.
Brute: As mentioned above, it's quite overpowered and needs review. The additional damage is quite significant, especially for a class that already deals plenty of damage. This looks like it wants to be a "better" version of the champion, who is the damage/regen subclass of the fighter.
Spores: This looked very interesting. I liked the fluff, and the rules for chaining spore damage felt comfortable, but not overpowering. The raise undead feature might be a bit lackluster. Returning with 1HP and only being able to use the Attack action is fairly limiting.
Invention: Do wizards really need another subclass? Pass. If anything, Alchemical Casting should go to the Sorcerer first, who should be able to spontaneous change spells from one element into another (but that's another discussion altogether).
I'll admit my reaction to the Brute was a bit kneejerk, mainly focusing on ways you could cheese it to gain as many opportunities to throw down that extra damage die as possible. Not everyone plays that way.
After some thought I think the main reason I found it strong was extra damage dice was the battle master's shtick, only they have to actually spend resources to get that extra damage. Mechanically, it's a set and forget battle master for anyone who likes the idea of that subclass, but doesn't want to bookkeep their newfound resource pool, at the cost of a slower power increase and no secondary benefits. It still seems a tad strong, but I'd need to run it through some encounters to see if it's really all that.
In a way it still kinda puts the champion out though; you're not always gonna get that 19 roll, but every hit having an extra damage die is more consistent and bankable. And one feature I like but isn't very on theme is gaining the extra fighting style. Like, when I think of a "brute," I don't picture someone with that kind of discipline, ya know?
(Meanwhile off in some lonely corner of the house of playable material, the purple dragon knight continues to sulk.)
The Arcanomechanical Armour is suppose to be an item you can attune too for force resistance but it doesn’t let me when my character is wearing it. Anyone know the solution?
Honestly, the reason I dislike the Brute (aside from it kind of riffing off the Champion) is because I just don't think it fits the Fighter subclass all that well. A bruiser of hulking muscle that plows their way through things is the Barbarian. The Brute just doesn't mesh with the kind of fighting expertise that all Fighters just naturally come with. I get what they're going for and I partially agree, its just that the entire concept doesn't really level with what the Fighter class is all about.
The rogue needs something like that for its more muscley thuggish characters, and sneak attack being solely dexterity-attack exclusive by the core rules severely limits the ability to play that kind of character.
I was thinking the exact same thing. A big guy using underhanded tactics to beat people into submission is pretty much up the Rogues alley, frankly.
Ok. So, I'm just going to review the Brute for the time being.
Pros:
The Brute is archetypal, which for me is essential for any subclass. It's been missing in the fighter for some time. Some say brutish strength is the barbarians territory, but I believe the barbarians is more focuses on resistance than damage. The Brute does damage. That's the point. Not too smart, lift heavy thing. I love it.It's simplicity is key, as it's a nice foothold for new players or those who don't want to deal with too many mechanical decisions but still want to be effective in combat.
Cons: the Brute needs work. I want it in my game. Do not scrap this! Just give it the testing it needs.
The damage die are too much. It needs a heavy damage mechanic, but there needs to be be either a cost associated (like battle masters superiority die), a required circumstance (like sneak attack) or simply a reduction, as it's damage output makes several other character options look a lot flimsier.
The bonus damage needs to be restricted to strength based attacks. Having a dex brute makes no sense. This is an easy fix.
I don't know why the Brute steps on the Champion's toes. You can't just hijack two subclass features, that's cheating and basically looks like an edited Champion, which is a big no no in my book. It brings us into the realm of power creep, and other icky game tropes that dnd has no business stepping in. But more importantly it robs the Brute of what could be more flavorful options.
For example, there r no RP or skill based abilities. You could give the Brute proficiency (or expertise? Maybe not) in intimidation and allow it to add it's strength bonus to intimidation rolls. Simple, flavorful, effective. Id find other ways to use the strength score as well, like perhaps the additional damage dice are more restricted and/or given some sort of cost/resource pool, but all your damage bonuses from strength are always doubled, and perhaps tripled as you level up. Simple, flavorful, effective. There's a lot of room to explore cool new options here without just borrowing stuff from other subclasses. Not to mention, why would the Brute get two fighting styles? They're a brute who hits things hard, not a master of martial arts.
Bottom line, the Brute is a great concept and definitely has a place in dnd. It just needs a rehash and some play testing. Think simple, flavorful, effective. And don't step on the Champions toes! Balance those damage dice somehow, make is strength only! give us an rp/skill element, and find some new ways to use that strength score. You got this wizards. Go make the magic happen.
Gotta say I'm loving how the unearthed subclasses are being integrated in dnd beyond. Definitely going to produce a lot more feedback and player testing this way.
Unlike most of the folks in this thread I feel that the Brute is actually reasonably well balanced, nor do I mind that it steps on the Champion's toes because I believe that it might be meant to. I believe Crawford was recently discussing the idea of certain lack luster options in the player's handbook for subclasses being resolved through replacement subclasses for similar concepts- not invalidating the handbook material (after all it's as usable as it is now) or introducing complex errata but offering these alternatives, for people who want the simplicity of the champion without being measurably worse than the battlemaster. It does the champion's job better than the champion does, which might be the goal.
I think we should have a more abstract discussion about that idea, because whether or not the brute is a good subclass will hinge on how we feel about that solution.
Though i do like the idea from someone in this thread that the brute be retooled to use two handed weapons in a single hand, because that's thematically really cool, and so long as it's accounted for in the subclasses power budget, and doesn't come online until at least 6, it'd probably be just fine for MC too.
You make a good argument, and as I have continued to fiddle with this set of UA I am warming up to the idea of the Brute. But on a personal note if a player wants to use this in my game I will potentially house rule that the class features only function when using STR based attacks. Maybe that is just because of the name but Brutes don't sound very 'finesse-like' to me. On the flipside of that I also worry about it being restrictive for fun factor to do that. As I have continued looking at this set I think the Invention is dropping down the list in terms of how much I like it. It has made me realize I want a Tinker separately from a Chaos Caster, even though I like the idea for the random casting tables and a mad scientist still kinda jives with both aspects of the class.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The only problem with the Brute subclass is the name. Brute practically demands comparison to Barbarian instead of allowing folks to view it objectively.
Had it been named something more in line with the fighter titles of long ago, such as myrmidon/veteran/etc..., I believe that half of the complaints wouldn't exist.
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Perpetually annoyed that Eldritch Knights can't use Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Smite, and Eldritch Sight.
The only problem with the Brute subclass is the name. Brute practically demands comparison to Barbarian instead of allowing folks to view it objectively.
Had it been named something more in line with the fighter titles of long ago, such as myrmidon/veteran/etc..., I believe that half of the complaints wouldn't exist.
Juggernaut?...
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Lv 3: "Brutal Strength" (d6) You gain a pool of Brutality Dice equal to your fighter level. These dice are d6 (becoming d8 at level 10 and d10 at level 18). You may choose to spend one Brutality die whenever you attack with a strength based melee weapon or unarmed strike that you are proficient with, either before or after the attack roll is made. You may only spend one Brutality die per attack roll. You regain Brutality Dice equal to your Strength modifier on a short rest, and all of your Brutality Dice after a long rest.
"Brutal Damage" if you choose to spend your Brutality die after you've made your attack roll, add it's result to your base weapon damage.
"Brutal Strike" if you choose to spend your Brutality die before you make your attack roll, you gain a +1 (+2 @ level 10, +3 @ level 18) bonus on the attack roll and upon a hit you may add the result of the die to your base damage. If you miss, the die is spent without inflicting additional damage.
Level 7: (d6) "Brutish Visage" you may spend and add a brutality die to any Charisma (intimidation) checks you make.
"Brutish Durability" you may spend and add a Brutality die to any Constitution check or save you make. In addition, you may add a Brutality die to any death saves you make. If the new result is above 20, treat the result as a natural 20 death save.
Level 10: (d8) "Brutish Endurance" whenever you use your second wind ability and regain hit points from this feature, regain a Brutality die if your aren't already at your maximum.
Level 15: (d8) "Brutish Tenacity" when you roll for initiative, if your remaining Brutality dice is less than your Strength modifier, you regain brutality dice equal to your strength modifier total. The maximum you can gain from this effect the difference between the number of Brutality dice you currently have and your strength modifier total. (Writing rules is hard)
Level 18: (d10) "Sheer Brutality" once on your turn, after you roll an attack, you may spend a Brutality die to add damage equal to your fighter level and the result of said brutality die to your weapon damage for that attack. You may not use this ability in combination with the Brutal Strike abilty that grants a bonus to hit from your Brutality die. You can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest.
This is my Brute design! WotC feel free to take it. I based it around this brutality dice pool, whuch i think would be a lot of fun to use. It adds a level of budgeting thats pretty loose but still apparent, while still allowing for that consistant damage boost that is the core of the Brute's abaility. Also, it takes into account gow brute strength can be used to cleave thru armour with the bonus to hit, and adds some need for decision making by making those rolls a possible waste of a die. The die scaling is more gradual than the original design, but still grows with the character. I gave the Brutesome role playing tools as well with the intimidation checks, and a nice mechanical boost with the con and death saves, which works well with the raw muscle theme of the Brute. I kept all the abilities away from things like resistance, hit points, critical hits, and what not, to keep the Brute separate from the barbarians and champions out there. It's big final ability is basically an auto crit but u have to hit first, and u can't use the +3 to attack bonus to get it, and u only get the one, so use it wisely! Alternatively, instead of this final ability, it might be neat to just simply have it so your strength modiefier is always doubled for the sake of damage rolls or something, to add that consistent damage boost instead of the one time big swing. Not sure about that yet.
I also think that the term "Brute" might not even be the perfect fit, as I think someone mentioned veteran or myrmidon or something might be cooler. A few word swaps here and there could be fun if you wanted to theme the build a little differently. Anyways, I think this version is more unique, fun, and balanced than the original. I know WotC will be doing a lot of feedback gathering, play testing, and editing and I'm looking forward to whatever they'll come up with. Hope this helps!
(My first attempt at any sort of class design, this is fun!)
While your ideas are nice, I think it goes against what WotC wants to achieve with the Brute. I think they want a really simple (sub)class. No resource management or decision making. This is also the reason why I think they went with fighter instead of barbarian (no rage or strange AC calculations and so on). Personally I prefer characters with more options, but I understand the need for simple (sub)classes too.
For feedback: -I think there are too many ways to regain brutality die. Especially since you have a large pool of dice and not a lot of different ways to spend your die. -Brutish Endurance doesn't really give extra endurance. -Don't shy away from having a fighter that shares features with a barbarian. While a brute and a barbarian are different, they absolutely share features. Not all (sub)classes need to be 100% unique. -Brutish Tenacity: WotC avoids this clunky wording by having you only regain dice when you are at zero (look at the Monk lvl 20 abiltiy for example). Your way is better imho.
Petward: Thanks for the feedback! I get what you mean about WotC wanting simplicity, and on that front i didnt exactly deliver :p And I think your right about having too many ways to regain brutality dice. I'll have to tweak that. I think its just a design preference of mine to keep separate the features of different classes, but I see your point. And regarding Brutish tenacity, Thanks!
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I think having something brutish for the fighter is something worth looking in to, however from what I've seen of the Brute subclass it needs to be more removed from what the Champion can do. Both subclasses get Extra Combat Style and Survivor, and I feel like those similarities between the two of them make Brute appear to be "Like champion, but you do more damage", which I worry would give people very little reason to even play a Champion-Fighter. I like that they are trying to make more simple fighter subclasses, but I feel as though more needs to be done with Brute so that it is thoroughly distinct from the fighter's other simple subclass in the case that it does get made into a subclass of its own.
I wound up seeing the video on the subclasses before checking the Unearthed Arcana, and the whole time I was watching it and waiting for them to talk about Brute I was hoping it would be a rogue subclass. The rogue needs something like that for its more muscley thuggish characters, and sneak attack being solely dexterity-attack exclusive by the core rules severely limits the ability to play that kind of character.
I see a lot of people commenting on how "At level 20, Brute is absolutely broken compared to the other options!". I'd just like to ask how often you people actually play at level 20, because I as a player have never reached that point legitimately. It seems like a lot of you are judging it in a white room scenario. At points where the majority of people who would use it would play, its basically hunter's mark or weaker. Sure its technically better than the barbarian rage damage, except to me the rage seems like the major benefit would be THE RESISTANCES TO DAMAGE rather than a mere +2ish damage. Now I will say that it stacking with Hunter's Mark/Hex DOES get a bit silly, but even so for most people its not nearly as broken as it's made out as. Brutish durability is again pretty good, people comparing it to the paladin aura of protection, except once more I think you have all forgotten that the aura AFFECTS OTHER PLAYERS. "Oh the brutish durability gives a .5 higher average bonus!" well that seems like a fair trade off, and paladin can scale higher with more charisma investment.
+15 damage on a crit? great that makes the crits special, but at that point 15 isn't THAT much.
Circle of spores just seems great. Amazing flavour, an interesting replacer to wildshape (Finally something that can somewhat compete with moon!). Halo of spores honestly seems really cool to me. Fungal zombies, what game does that remind you of...? Spreading spores seems a bit meh, but if you can hold a chokepoint being able to get ticks for days makes this a situational but possibly great ability. Fungal body also seems pretty cool (Also assassins eat your heart out)
School of invention seems... Pretty ok. The arcano armour I guess is useful for the first levels... until you cast mage armour. Seriously why is it only 12? Reckless casting seems pretty sweet. I see a lot of people being all like "But wildmagic is the random magic subclass", despite them being fairly different in purpose and flavour. Its controlled chaos that you can manipulate, and therefore I like it more. Alchemic casting got a hard nerf from last time we saw it, but its still a pretty cool feature. I don't imagine the Prodigious Inspiration feature being that great, but maybe in an emergency you need to swap something that you decided not to prepare... nope still seems silly. Controlled Chaos, the reason that this is definitely better than wildmagic.
All 3 subclasses look fun and different to me. The wizard archetype misses the theme a little by only wearing light armor but its a step in the right direction. Not fulfilling a tony stark fantasy with this one yet though.
The Brute is missing a huge opportunity here. The name of the archetype is "The Brute". Its set up is already built to be advantageous to two weapon fighting. So why not instead of just giving set die rolls that grow upwards of 1d10.....just give them the ability to wield 2 handed weapons they are proficient with in 1 hand. a 2d6 is less than a 1d6 better than a 1d8. So although it would be stronger at level 3....it would be weaker at the high end.....allowing you all more room for more interesting additional abilities as you level up in the archetype. Not to mention being able to wield 2 handed weapons in 1 hand is a hugely popular theme that Diablo 2 cashed in on majorly with their barbarian class and diablo 3 kind of has with crusader using a 2 hand weapon and a shield. You could even do that....allow the Brute to use a 2 handed weapon with a shield if you don't want them dual wielding 2 handed weapons. Its a massively cool/fun thematically and for RP purposes as well.
Please make this happen WotC!!!!!
Hmm... Brute? Not really a fan of. I kind of wish they went the Forge Cleric route, and gave you just increasing magic enhancements on your weapons and armor. Quick, simple, elegant.
I want to like the Circle of Spores, I really do, but I find the focus on necrotic spells to be odd. Spores aren't necrotic, they're still alive. You tell me spore magic, I don't start thinking of Chill Hand. And I would like to see some notes that creatures raised by spore mages don't count as undead, but rather still living beings. IE - dominate person / monster abilities, not just raise undead
Invention seems cool, but I'd rather see more magi-tech and less random tables. Random tables just don't feel very wizardly to me. Its like they're trying to make this the crazy-tinker-gnome subclass, much like the forge domain is the dwarf cleric subclass, and trickster cleric is the drow cleric subclass. But, in return, I don't feel like we're actually building or creating anything.
I guess I just want the Circle of Spores to be a bit closer to Zuggtomoy. Poor dear lost her chance to be a bride, after all, so she deserves some love! *cough*
More seriously, just more Myconids instead of zombies/skeletons, and more madness / mind control stuff.
Brute: As mentioned above, it's quite overpowered and needs review. The additional damage is quite significant, especially for a class that already deals plenty of damage. This looks like it wants to be a "better" version of the champion, who is the damage/regen subclass of the fighter.
Spores: This looked very interesting. I liked the fluff, and the rules for chaining spore damage felt comfortable, but not overpowering. The raise undead feature might be a bit lackluster. Returning with 1HP and only being able to use the Attack action is fairly limiting.
Invention: Do wizards really need another subclass? Pass. If anything, Alchemical Casting should go to the Sorcerer first, who should be able to spontaneous change spells from one element into another (but that's another discussion altogether).
MS
I'll admit my reaction to the Brute was a bit kneejerk, mainly focusing on ways you could cheese it to gain as many opportunities to throw down that extra damage die as possible. Not everyone plays that way.
After some thought I think the main reason I found it strong was extra damage dice was the battle master's shtick, only they have to actually spend resources to get that extra damage. Mechanically, it's a set and forget battle master for anyone who likes the idea of that subclass, but doesn't want to bookkeep their newfound resource pool, at the cost of a slower power increase and no secondary benefits. It still seems a tad strong, but I'd need to run it through some encounters to see if it's really all that.
In a way it still kinda puts the champion out though; you're not always gonna get that 19 roll, but every hit having an extra damage die is more consistent and bankable. And one feature I like but isn't very on theme is gaining the extra fighting style. Like, when I think of a "brute," I don't picture someone with that kind of discipline, ya know?
(Meanwhile off in some lonely corner of the house of playable material, the purple dragon knight continues to sulk.)
The Arcanomechanical Armour is suppose to be an item you can attune too for force resistance but it doesn’t let me when my character is wearing it. Anyone know the solution?
Honestly, the reason I dislike the Brute (aside from it kind of riffing off the Champion) is because I just don't think it fits the Fighter subclass all that well. A bruiser of hulking muscle that plows their way through things is the Barbarian. The Brute just doesn't mesh with the kind of fighting expertise that all Fighters just naturally come with. I get what they're going for and I partially agree, its just that the entire concept doesn't really level with what the Fighter class is all about.
I was thinking the exact same thing. A big guy using underhanded tactics to beat people into submission is pretty much up the Rogues alley, frankly.
Ok. So, I'm just going to review the Brute for the time being.
Pros:
The Brute is archetypal, which for me is essential for any subclass. It's been missing in the fighter for some time. Some say brutish strength is the barbarians territory, but I believe the barbarians is more focuses on resistance than damage. The Brute does damage. That's the point. Not too smart, lift heavy thing. I love it.It's simplicity is key, as it's a nice foothold for new players or those who don't want to deal with too many mechanical decisions but still want to be effective in combat.
Cons: the Brute needs work. I want it in my game. Do not scrap this! Just give it the testing it needs.
The damage die are too much. It needs a heavy damage mechanic, but there needs to be be either a cost associated (like battle masters superiority die), a required circumstance (like sneak attack) or simply a reduction, as it's damage output makes several other character options look a lot flimsier.
The bonus damage needs to be restricted to strength based attacks. Having a dex brute makes no sense. This is an easy fix.
I don't know why the Brute steps on the Champion's toes. You can't just hijack two subclass features, that's cheating and basically looks like an edited Champion, which is a big no no in my book. It brings us into the realm of power creep, and other icky game tropes that dnd has no business stepping in. But more importantly it robs the Brute of what could be more flavorful options.
For example, there r no RP or skill based abilities. You could give the Brute proficiency (or expertise? Maybe not) in intimidation and allow it to add it's strength bonus to intimidation rolls. Simple, flavorful, effective. Id find other ways to use the strength score as well, like perhaps the additional damage dice are more restricted and/or given some sort of cost/resource pool, but all your damage bonuses from strength are always doubled, and perhaps tripled as you level up. Simple, flavorful, effective. There's a lot of room to explore cool new options here without just borrowing stuff from other subclasses. Not to mention, why would the Brute get two fighting styles? They're a brute who hits things hard, not a master of martial arts.
Bottom line, the Brute is a great concept and definitely has a place in dnd. It just needs a rehash and some play testing. Think simple, flavorful, effective. And don't step on the Champions toes! Balance those damage dice somehow, make is strength only! give us an rp/skill element, and find some new ways to use that strength score. You got this wizards. Go make the magic happen.
Gotta say I'm loving how the unearthed subclasses are being integrated in dnd beyond. Definitely going to produce a lot more feedback and player testing this way.
Unlike most of the folks in this thread I feel that the Brute is actually reasonably well balanced, nor do I mind that it steps on the Champion's toes because I believe that it might be meant to. I believe Crawford was recently discussing the idea of certain lack luster options in the player's handbook for subclasses being resolved through replacement subclasses for similar concepts- not invalidating the handbook material (after all it's as usable as it is now) or introducing complex errata but offering these alternatives, for people who want the simplicity of the champion without being measurably worse than the battlemaster. It does the champion's job better than the champion does, which might be the goal.
I think we should have a more abstract discussion about that idea, because whether or not the brute is a good subclass will hinge on how we feel about that solution.
Though i do like the idea from someone in this thread that the brute be retooled to use two handed weapons in a single hand, because that's thematically really cool, and so long as it's accounted for in the subclasses power budget, and doesn't come online until at least 6, it'd probably be just fine for MC too.
You make a good argument, and as I have continued to fiddle with this set of UA I am warming up to the idea of the Brute. But on a personal note if a player wants to use this in my game I will potentially house rule that the class features only function when using STR based attacks. Maybe that is just because of the name but Brutes don't sound very 'finesse-like' to me. On the flipside of that I also worry about it being restrictive for fun factor to do that. As I have continued looking at this set I think the Invention is dropping down the list in terms of how much I like it. It has made me realize I want a Tinker separately from a Chaos Caster, even though I like the idea for the random casting tables and a mad scientist still kinda jives with both aspects of the class.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The only problem with the Brute subclass is the name. Brute practically demands comparison to Barbarian instead of allowing folks to view it objectively.
Had it been named something more in line with the fighter titles of long ago, such as myrmidon/veteran/etc..., I believe that half of the complaints wouldn't exist.
Perpetually annoyed that Eldritch Knights can't use Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Smite, and Eldritch Sight.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The Brute, Revised
For your consideration....
Lv 3: "Brutal Strength" (d6) You gain a pool of Brutality Dice equal to your fighter level. These dice are d6 (becoming d8 at level 10 and d10 at level 18). You may choose to spend one Brutality die whenever you attack with a strength based melee weapon or unarmed strike that you are proficient with, either before or after the attack roll is made. You may only spend one Brutality die per attack roll. You regain Brutality Dice equal to your Strength modifier on a short rest, and all of your Brutality Dice after a long rest.
"Brutal Damage" if you choose to spend your Brutality die after you've made your attack roll, add it's result to your base weapon damage.
"Brutal Strike" if you choose to spend your Brutality die before you make your attack roll, you gain a +1 (+2 @ level 10, +3 @ level 18) bonus on the attack roll and upon a hit you may add the result of the die to your base damage. If you miss, the die is spent without inflicting additional damage.
Level 7: (d6) "Brutish Visage" you may spend and add a brutality die to any Charisma (intimidation) checks you make.
"Brutish Durability" you may spend and add a Brutality die to any Constitution check or save you make. In addition, you may add a Brutality die to any death saves you make. If the new result is above 20, treat the result as a natural 20 death save.
Level 10: (d8) "Brutish Endurance" whenever you use your second wind ability and regain hit points from this feature, regain a Brutality die if your aren't already at your maximum.
Level 15: (d8) "Brutish Tenacity" when you roll for initiative, if your remaining Brutality dice is less than your Strength modifier, you regain brutality dice equal to your strength modifier total. The maximum you can gain from this effect the difference between the number of Brutality dice you currently have and your strength modifier total. (Writing rules is hard)
Level 18: (d10) "Sheer Brutality" once on your turn, after you roll an attack, you may spend a Brutality die to add damage equal to your fighter level and the result of said brutality die to your weapon damage for that attack. You may not use this ability in combination with the Brutal Strike abilty that grants a bonus to hit from your Brutality die. You can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest.
This is my Brute design! WotC feel free to take it. I based it around this brutality dice pool, whuch i think would be a lot of fun to use. It adds a level of budgeting thats pretty loose but still apparent, while still allowing for that consistant damage boost that is the core of the Brute's abaility. Also, it takes into account gow brute strength can be used to cleave thru armour with the bonus to hit, and adds some need for decision making by making those rolls a possible waste of a die. The die scaling is more gradual than the original design, but still grows with the character. I gave the Brutesome role playing tools as well with the intimidation checks, and a nice mechanical boost with the con and death saves, which works well with the raw muscle theme of the Brute. I kept all the abilities away from things like resistance, hit points, critical hits, and what not, to keep the Brute separate from the barbarians and champions out there. It's big final ability is basically an auto crit but u have to hit first, and u can't use the +3 to attack bonus to get it, and u only get the one, so use it wisely! Alternatively, instead of this final ability, it might be neat to just simply have it so your strength modiefier is always doubled for the sake of damage rolls or something, to add that consistent damage boost instead of the one time big swing. Not sure about that yet.
I also think that the term "Brute" might not even be the perfect fit, as I think someone mentioned veteran or myrmidon or something might be cooler. A few word swaps here and there could be fun if you wanted to theme the build a little differently. Anyways, I think this version is more unique, fun, and balanced than the original. I know WotC will be doing a lot of feedback gathering, play testing, and editing and I'm looking forward to whatever they'll come up with. Hope this helps!
(My first attempt at any sort of class design, this is fun!)
While your ideas are nice, I think it goes against what WotC wants to achieve with the Brute. I think they want a really simple (sub)class. No resource management or decision making. This is also the reason why I think they went with fighter instead of barbarian (no rage or strange AC calculations and so on). Personally I prefer characters with more options, but I understand the need for simple (sub)classes too.
For feedback:
-I think there are too many ways to regain brutality die. Especially since you have a large pool of dice and not a lot of different ways to spend your die.
-Brutish Endurance doesn't really give extra endurance.
-Don't shy away from having a fighter that shares features with a barbarian. While a brute and a barbarian are different, they absolutely share features. Not all (sub)classes need to be 100% unique.
-Brutish Tenacity: WotC avoids this clunky wording by having you only regain dice when you are at zero (look at the Monk lvl 20 abiltiy for example). Your way is better imho.
Petward: Thanks for the feedback! I get what you mean about WotC wanting simplicity, and on that front i didnt exactly deliver :p And I think your right about having too many ways to regain brutality dice. I'll have to tweak that. I think its just a design preference of mine to keep separate the features of different classes, but I see your point. And regarding Brutish tenacity, Thanks!