Dinosaur movies feature normal people as the protagonists facing off against the dinosaurs, D&D characters are super human heroes by level 5.
Dinosaur movies also generally feature normal people being dumb; a dinosaur really wouldn't be that hard to kill (somewhat more dangerous than a rogue elephant).
Anyway, if you want dangerous dinosaurs, I recommend just Kaiju-izing them. The Tarrasque is basically a scaled up dinosaur.
Good luck trying to kill a rampaging elephant in melee.
The fact that they mentioned triceratops in the ardling description doesn't really mean anything. It's just an example of how creative you may get with the freedom they're giving you. Does that mean they should add more dinosaur options for players? No, because you already have them if you use your imagination and flexibility that the game provides you with. However, I do wish they had better and more fleshed-out dinosaurs for monster manual. They're an excellent fit for jungle biome and more primal settings like "Fire and Ice" or Conan world.
I see what you mean there. But my guess is that they were also wondering how well the triceratops option would be received if they put it in there. And the more people that say "I really like this" on the survey, the more likely WotC is to listen and add more dinosaur options into the game.
The reality is, at the resolution of D&D, you can represent most dinosaurs as just "like X, but bigger/smaller", because most of the things that would distinguish them are not things D&D cares about (I do notice a bug: the dinosaurs in MMM aren't tagged as dinosaurs, though the equivalents in VGM are).
Yes, you can always reflavor things. But not only does that take a bit of work and time, but it requires new DMs who want to run a dinosaur to remember they are allowed to create dinosaur options out of preexisting monsters and then create the lore and description for the dinosaurs as while as how they work in the world of D&D.
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Dinosaur movies feature normal people as the protagonists facing off against the dinosaurs, D&D characters are super human heroes by level 5.
Dinosaur movies also generally feature normal people being dumb; a dinosaur really wouldn't be that hard to kill (somewhat more dangerous than a rogue elephant).
Anyway, if you want dangerous dinosaurs, I recommend just Kaiju-izing them. The Tarrasque is basically a scaled up dinosaur.
Good luck trying to kill a rampaging elephant in melee.
With Magic it's really not that hard, a single Levitate spell can utterly neuter that rampaging elephant, or a single Web spell. Non-fantasy creatures will always be limited to low CRs because they exist in a world without magic and thus are utterly unequiped to deal with it.
Dinosaur movies feature normal people as the protagonists facing off against the dinosaurs, D&D characters are super human heroes by level 5.
Dinosaur movies also generally feature normal people being dumb; a dinosaur really wouldn't be that hard to kill (somewhat more dangerous than a rogue elephant).
Anyway, if you want dangerous dinosaurs, I recommend just Kaiju-izing them. The Tarrasque is basically a scaled up dinosaur.
Good luck trying to kill a rampaging elephant in melee.
With Magic it's really not that hard, a single Levitate spell can utterly neuter that rampaging elephant, or a single Web spell. Non-fantasy creatures will always be limited to low CRs because they exist in a world without magic and thus are utterly unequiped to deal with it.
Levitate will certainly neuter a newborn elephant, but anything older than that will be well over the 500 pound limit of the spell. I suspect that most elephants have the strength to break out of a Web spell as well.
Good luck trying to kill a rampaging elephant in melee.
Primitive people hunted mammoths into extinction, but my point was that a dinosaur in a modern setting is dangerous but hardly a disaster movie.
Well, yeah, but it took a decent number of hunters and an established tactic that took lives to polish. Though as for modern setting... the very idea of military not being able to handle dinosaurs or zombies is ridiculous.
I am absolutely in favor of more dinosaurs. One of my favorite character archetypes is a druid who reveres dinosaurs and uses them as the basis for wildshape/summoning. A book adding more dinosaur options would be greatly appreciated, especially if it added a few more dinos in the CR ranges that don't currently have them.
As for the debate of dinosaurs being mundane creatures? So are bears but we have multiple versions of "bear but bigger" because bears are a fairly iconic animal in fantasy. Larger, more powerful fantastical dinosaurs seems to me to be as much of a staple of high fantasy as other forms of giant animals are. Wizards could take a page out of their own book from Magic the Gathering's Ixalan set and add epic, kaiju sized dinosaurs with elemental powers of divine origin to the mix for campaigns set in a Lost World style setting pretty easily.
As for the debate of dinosaurs being mundane creatures? So are bears but we have multiple versions of "bear but bigger" because bears are a fairly iconic animal in fantasy.
There aren't any bears above CR 2, which was the point: big mundane animals just aren't going to have all that high of a CR.
As for the debate of dinosaurs being mundane creatures? So are bears but we have multiple versions of "bear but bigger" because bears are a fairly iconic animal in fantasy.
There aren't any bears above CR 2, which was the point: big mundane animals just aren't going to have all that high of a CR.
While I get the 'there's limits to flesh and bone' it also feels really disappointing to realize that something like, well, a BEAR gets outclassed so swiftly. I'd think something like a grizzly would be a CR 4 or 5 so that fighting it is at least noteworthy. Instead of, well, a CR 1.
It wouldn't be D&D if the DM didn't read conjure woodland creatures properly and allows the party druid to summon 8 pixies to turn the party into 4 giant flying t-rexs.
Jokes aside, there is room in fantasy for dinosaurs and people immediately know what they are, so a good easy tool for a DM to add an encounter or for a party member to search out.
I've been a part of 2 types of D&D games. The first is a very specific kind of setting where various species are allowed or disallowed, and I wouldn't be surprised if a DM just straight up wouldn't let you play an Ardling of any type, rendering this whole thing moot. The second type of game is anything goes, either because the world has every kind of species, or because it's expected you'd have a good character backstory reason to play a unique species. In this case, the presence of dinosaur people really depends on your table. I'd already expect the DM would allow me to play any species reskinned as a triceratops man, rendering part of this moot. But if you happen to be in a group that doesn't like reskinning stuff, or allowing homebrew stuff, then I can see why this would be particularly exciting.
The main thing I like about the Ardling (minus any other changes I think it needs) is that it gives the character unique mechanics, and those are the types of things that lead to more player creativity regardless of whether or not the book says you can look like a particular kind of dinosaur. Still, even though it doesn't move the needle in a huge way for me or the groups I play in, I think it can only be a net positive. More options are almost always better.
Beasts in particular have been neglected in stats. I think wotc has actively avoided it because of ranger and druid controversy.
Beast stat blocks really need unique features/traits. Dinosaurs are the perfect place for beasts to have resistances or special saves.
As for Dinosaur races I like the idea of Ardlings as a basic catch-all for such concepts. I do not think a specific race for Dinosaurs would have enough practical use to be worth it. Still there might be enough fans of animatronic sitcoms or Denver to make a setting specific option.
And there are hints that certain neglected beast planes might get more content in the future.
Beasts in particular have been neglected in stats. I think wotc has actively avoided it because of ranger and druid controversy.
Beast stat blocks really need unique features/traits. Dinosaurs are the perfect place for beasts to have resistances or special saves.
As for Dinosaur races I like the idea of Ardlings as a basic catch-all for such concepts. I do not think a specific race for Dinosaurs would have enough practical use to be worth it. Still there might be enough fans of animatronic sitcoms or Denver to make a setting specific option.
And there are hints that certain neglected beast planes might get more content in the future.
Saurials were an official race "back in the day", and one named Dragonbait has appeared in 5e. How popular they would be is difficult to tell, but they at least have/do exist in D&D already.
As for the debate of dinosaurs being mundane creatures? So are bears but we have multiple versions of "bear but bigger" because bears are a fairly iconic animal in fantasy.
There aren't any bears above CR 2, which was the point: big mundane animals just aren't going to have all that high of a CR.
While I get the 'there's limits to flesh and bone' it also feels really disappointing to realize that something like, well, a BEAR gets outclassed so swiftly. I'd think something like a grizzly would be a CR 4 or 5 so that fighting it is at least noteworthy. Instead of, well, a CR 1.
For those of us who live is places where grizzly's exist IRL, they really aren't that terrifying. Sure you don't want to fight one hand-to-hand while you're out in just your hiking gear. But there's a local inventor in my part of the world who makes "bear-proof armour", and shops regularly stock "bear-spray" to scare them off, and people know to just avoid messing with them. A few arrows / bullets from a distance can neutralize a bear pretty easily. TBH more people around here get killed by moose than by bears.
There aren't any bears above CR 2, which was the point: big mundane animals just aren't going to have all that high of a CR.
That's because bears cap out at Polar Bear, which is the largest real life bear in the world. But this isn't real life. It is fantasy, and fantasy is filled with supremely large bears and bear-gods that could easily have a higher CR than 2. Older editions had the dire bear which was CR7 and much stronger than a polar bear if I remember right. You could have a bear of Huge or even gargantuan size roaming the deepest, most dangerous wildernesses of the world and it'd feel right at home alongside dragons and the like.
Dinosaurs can easily work similarly. The t-rex is (roughly, there are other contenders like giganotosaurus and charcharodontosaurus) the largest land predator to ever live, but while a normal t-rex might lose to an adult dragon a Dire Tyrannosaurus might be more of a rival.
The cartoon Primal has a lot of great examples of this. Dinosaurs that are many magnitudes larger than the real world equivalent fighting against monstrously huge bats, spiders, and other supernatural creatures works very well.
That's because bears cap out at Polar Bear, which is the largest real life bear in the world. But this isn't real life. It is fantasy, and fantasy is filled with supremely large bears and bear-gods that could easily have a higher CR than 2. Older editions had the dire bear which was CR7 and much stronger than a polar bear if I remember right. You could have a bear of Huge or even gargantuan size roaming the deepest, most dangerous wildernesses of the world and it'd feel right at home alongside dragons and the like.
You could even have the runebear from Elden Ring... *flashbacks intensify*
I can’t help but agree with SaurianDruid; D&D is fundamentally a fantasy game and the creatures in it may have adapted to the fantastical elements of the world they live in. While a real Dinosaur may not have been super powerful, a D&D dinosaur can be. In fact, I really like Mezzurah’s idea of dire Dino’s.
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Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
Again wotc doesn't even give low cr beasts features that compete at with creatures their own level. Even space hamsters can't be decent beasts because they have "good features"
If 1 dnd actually fixes this balance beasts can become a more central part of play.
Good luck trying to kill a rampaging elephant in melee.
I see what you mean there. But my guess is that they were also wondering how well the triceratops option would be received if they put it in there. And the more people that say "I really like this" on the survey, the more likely WotC is to listen and add more dinosaur options into the game.
Yes, you can always reflavor things. But not only does that take a bit of work and time, but it requires new DMs who want to run a dinosaur to remember they are allowed to create dinosaur options out of preexisting monsters and then create the lore and description for the dinosaurs as while as how they work in the world of D&D.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.With Magic it's really not that hard, a single Levitate spell can utterly neuter that rampaging elephant, or a single Web spell. Non-fantasy creatures will always be limited to low CRs because they exist in a world without magic and thus are utterly unequiped to deal with it.
Primitive people hunted mammoths into extinction, but my point was that a dinosaur in a modern setting is dangerous but hardly a disaster movie.
Levitate will certainly neuter a newborn elephant, but anything older than that will be well over the 500 pound limit of the spell. I suspect that most elephants have the strength to break out of a Web spell as well.
Well, yeah, but it took a decent number of hunters and an established tactic that took lives to polish. Though as for modern setting... the very idea of military not being able to handle dinosaurs or zombies is ridiculous.
I am absolutely in favor of more dinosaurs. One of my favorite character archetypes is a druid who reveres dinosaurs and uses them as the basis for wildshape/summoning. A book adding more dinosaur options would be greatly appreciated, especially if it added a few more dinos in the CR ranges that don't currently have them.
As for the debate of dinosaurs being mundane creatures? So are bears but we have multiple versions of "bear but bigger" because bears are a fairly iconic animal in fantasy. Larger, more powerful fantastical dinosaurs seems to me to be as much of a staple of high fantasy as other forms of giant animals are. Wizards could take a page out of their own book from Magic the Gathering's Ixalan set and add epic, kaiju sized dinosaurs with elemental powers of divine origin to the mix for campaigns set in a Lost World style setting pretty easily.
There aren't any bears above CR 2, which was the point: big mundane animals just aren't going to have all that high of a CR.
While I get the 'there's limits to flesh and bone' it also feels really disappointing to realize that something like, well, a BEAR gets outclassed so swiftly. I'd think something like a grizzly would be a CR 4 or 5 so that fighting it is at least noteworthy. Instead of, well, a CR 1.
It wouldn't be D&D if the DM didn't read conjure woodland creatures properly and allows the party druid to summon 8 pixies to turn the party into 4 giant flying t-rexs.
Jokes aside, there is room in fantasy for dinosaurs and people immediately know what they are, so a good easy tool for a DM to add an encounter or for a party member to search out.
I've been a part of 2 types of D&D games. The first is a very specific kind of setting where various species are allowed or disallowed, and I wouldn't be surprised if a DM just straight up wouldn't let you play an Ardling of any type, rendering this whole thing moot. The second type of game is anything goes, either because the world has every kind of species, or because it's expected you'd have a good character backstory reason to play a unique species. In this case, the presence of dinosaur people really depends on your table. I'd already expect the DM would allow me to play any species reskinned as a triceratops man, rendering part of this moot. But if you happen to be in a group that doesn't like reskinning stuff, or allowing homebrew stuff, then I can see why this would be particularly exciting.
The main thing I like about the Ardling (minus any other changes I think it needs) is that it gives the character unique mechanics, and those are the types of things that lead to more player creativity regardless of whether or not the book says you can look like a particular kind of dinosaur. Still, even though it doesn't move the needle in a huge way for me or the groups I play in, I think it can only be a net positive. More options are almost always better.
Beasts in particular have been neglected in stats. I think wotc has actively avoided it because of ranger and druid controversy.
Beast stat blocks really need unique features/traits. Dinosaurs are the perfect place for beasts to have resistances or special saves.
As for Dinosaur races I like the idea of Ardlings as a basic catch-all for such concepts. I do not think a specific race for Dinosaurs would have enough practical use to be worth it. Still there might be enough fans of animatronic sitcoms or Denver to make a setting specific option.
And there are hints that certain neglected beast planes might get more content in the future.
Saurials were an official race "back in the day", and one named Dragonbait has appeared in 5e. How popular they would be is difficult to tell, but they at least have/do exist in D&D already.
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For those of us who live is places where grizzly's exist IRL, they really aren't that terrifying. Sure you don't want to fight one hand-to-hand while you're out in just your hiking gear. But there's a local inventor in my part of the world who makes "bear-proof armour", and shops regularly stock "bear-spray" to scare them off, and people know to just avoid messing with them. A few arrows / bullets from a distance can neutralize a bear pretty easily. TBH more people around here get killed by moose than by bears.
So what you're saying is, moose should be a CR 10 creature...🤔
Why not have it be CR 11? 🤣
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.That's because bears cap out at Polar Bear, which is the largest real life bear in the world. But this isn't real life. It is fantasy, and fantasy is filled with supremely large bears and bear-gods that could easily have a higher CR than 2. Older editions had the dire bear which was CR7 and much stronger than a polar bear if I remember right. You could have a bear of Huge or even gargantuan size roaming the deepest, most dangerous wildernesses of the world and it'd feel right at home alongside dragons and the like.
Dinosaurs can easily work similarly. The t-rex is (roughly, there are other contenders like giganotosaurus and charcharodontosaurus) the largest land predator to ever live, but while a normal t-rex might lose to an adult dragon a Dire Tyrannosaurus might be more of a rival.
The cartoon Primal has a lot of great examples of this. Dinosaurs that are many magnitudes larger than the real world equivalent fighting against monstrously huge bats, spiders, and other supernatural creatures works very well.
You could even have the runebear from Elden Ring... *flashbacks intensify*
I can’t help but agree with SaurianDruid; D&D is fundamentally a fantasy game and the creatures in it may have adapted to the fantastical elements of the world they live in. While a real Dinosaur may not have been super powerful, a D&D dinosaur can be. In fact, I really like Mezzurah’s idea of dire Dino’s.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Again wotc doesn't even give low cr beasts features that compete at with creatures their own level. Even space hamsters can't be decent beasts because they have "good features"
If 1 dnd actually fixes this balance beasts can become a more central part of play.