Calling Walocks a "half-caster" in this iteration is misleading. Saying it is a "dark paladin" or "grim/gloom ranger" is either disingenuous, bad faith argument, or comes from a place of honest ignorance. No other Half-caster gets access to 9th level spells or can have a 5th level spell at 9 or a 3rd level at 5. Yes you have to use your invocations, guess what. Other classes dont HAVE invocations....Saying new warlock doesn't feel good to play, ok, saying it weaker, fine. I have literally shown that at level 11+ that it is very true, by almost every metric. Before, it is debatable, the power has shifted not reduced. Again that comes back to feel.
And if you say warlock "feels" like a ranger, only if you purposefully built it that way.
These hyperboles on both ends of this debate, doesnt do your arguments any favors. You need to acknowledge the merits and the demerits of both to have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise you are just shouting into the wind guys.
And yet they are half casters. Having the option to blow half your features to become 2/3 caster doesn't change that. So yeah, goth rangers.
Calling Walocks a "half-caster" in this iteration is misleading. Saying it is a "dark paladin" or "grim/gloom ranger" is either disingenuous, bad faith argument, or comes from a place of honest ignorance. No other Half-caster gets access to 9th level spells or can have a 5th level spell at 9 or a 3rd level at 5. Yes you have to use your invocations, guess what. Other classes dont HAVE invocations....Saying new warlock doesn't feel good to play, ok, saying it weaker, fine. I have literally shown that at level 11+ that it is very true, by almost every metric. Before, it is debatable, the power has shifted not reduced. Again that comes back to feel.
And if you say warlock "feels" like a ranger, only if you purposefully built it that way.
These hyperboles on both ends of this debate, doesnt do your arguments any favors. You need to acknowledge the merits and the demerits of both to have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise you are just shouting into the wind guys.
And yet they are half casters. Having the option to blow half your features to become 2/3 caster doesn't change that. So yeah, goth rangers.
Disingenuous, not helpful. They aren't true half-casters nor are they true 2/3rd casters. Spells as features is not unheard of.
Calling Walocks a "half-caster" in this iteration is misleading. Saying it is a "dark paladin" or "grim/gloom ranger" is either disingenuous, bad faith argument, or comes from a place of honest ignorance. No other Half-caster gets access to 9th level spells or can have a 5th level spell at 9 or a 3rd level at 5. Yes you have to use your invocations, guess what. Other classes dont HAVE invocations....Saying new warlock doesn't feel good to play, ok, saying it weaker, fine. I have literally shown that at level 11+ that it is very true, by almost every metric. Before, it is debatable, the power has shifted not reduced. Again that comes back to feel.
And if you say warlock "feels" like a ranger, only if you purposefully built it that way.
These hyperboles on both ends of this debate, doesnt do your arguments any favors. You need to acknowledge the merits and the demerits of both to have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise you are just shouting into the wind guys.
And yet they are half casters. Having the option to blow half your features to become 2/3 caster doesn't change that. So yeah, goth rangers.
Disingenuous, not helpful. They aren't true half-casters nor are they true 2/3rd casters. Spells as features is not unheard of.
I wouldn't bother Aquil, people who are determined to not see any of the many differences between the UA Warlock and a ranger simply won't.
Calling Walocks a "half-caster" in this iteration is misleading. Saying it is a "dark paladin" or "grim/gloom ranger" is either disingenuous, bad faith argument, or comes from a place of honest ignorance. No other Half-caster gets access to 9th level spells or can have a 5th level spell at 9 or a 3rd level at 5. Yes you have to use your invocations, guess what. Other classes dont HAVE invocations....Saying new warlock doesn't feel good to play, ok, saying it weaker, fine. I have literally shown that at level 11+ that it is very true, by almost every metric. Before, it is debatable, the power has shifted not reduced. Again that comes back to feel.
And if you say warlock "feels" like a ranger, only if you purposefully built it that way.
These hyperboles on both ends of this debate, doesnt do your arguments any favors. You need to acknowledge the merits and the demerits of both to have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise you are just shouting into the wind guys.
And yet they are half casters. Having the option to blow half your features to become 2/3 caster doesn't change that. So yeah, goth rangers.
Disingenuous, not helpful. They aren't true half-casters nor are they true 2/3rd casters. Spells as features is not unheard of.
Saying my truthful opinion is disingenuous is unhelpful as well. They are literally half casters unless you dump 1/2 their features into spell casting at which point they are basically 2/3 casters or if you prefer 3/4 casters. Recognizing reality is not being disingenuous.
Calling Walocks a "half-caster" in this iteration is misleading. Saying it is a "dark paladin" or "grim/gloom ranger" is either disingenuous, bad faith argument, or comes from a place of honest ignorance. No other Half-caster gets access to 9th level spells or can have a 5th level spell at 9 or a 3rd level at 5. Yes you have to use your invocations, guess what. Other classes dont HAVE invocations....Saying new warlock doesn't feel good to play, ok, saying it weaker, fine. I have literally shown that at level 11+ that it is very true, by almost every metric. Before, it is debatable, the power has shifted not reduced. Again that comes back to feel.
And if you say warlock "feels" like a ranger, only if you purposefully built it that way.
These hyperboles on both ends of this debate, doesnt do your arguments any favors. You need to acknowledge the merits and the demerits of both to have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise you are just shouting into the wind guys.
And yet they are half casters. Having the option to blow half your features to become 2/3 caster doesn't change that. So yeah, goth rangers.
Disingenuous, not helpful. They aren't true half-casters nor are they true 2/3rd casters. Spells as features is not unheard of.
I wouldn't bother Aquil, people who are determined to not see any of the many differences between the UA Warlock and a ranger simply won't.
People determined to spin the goth ranger into something its not wont see how they are basically a goth ranger either.
Ahh, the No True Half-Caster fallacy. Don't see that one too often
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
They are not going to allow a table where one Paladin can smite three times a turn, and another can only smite once, nor a Hexblade that can put out 150 damage a turn, and a Warlock that barely hits 50.
Why not? You can have that kind of disparity now, if one player has done a build optimized within an inch of its life and another could not care less what their DPR is
I think it's less that they'll prevent it than that they'll discourage it. "You can mix classes with the same name from two eras if you want to, but we recommend you don't," probably.
Ahh, the No True Half-Caster fallacy. Don't see that one too often
Please tell me which half caster gets to cast wish. Or even a single 3rd level spell at level 5.
Seriously, treating this as something it ISNT rather than discussing what it IS doesn't help. It doesnt create greater understanding it doesnt create constructive feed back.
No half-caster gets access to spells at the levels the new warlock does. And those half casters still have less features even after people spend features on invocations.
Dont like it that is fine, but it isn't a ranger or a paladin. If your calling it this you are either purposefully disingenuous and purposefully working within hyperbole rather than wanting to have an honest straight forward discussion or B. You have no clue what you are talking about and either never played ranger, or haven't tried this lock at all. Your opinion is literally worthless, because you are arguing from a place of sheer ignorance.
Calling Walocks a "half-caster" in this iteration is misleading. Saying it is a "dark paladin" or "grim/gloom ranger" is either disingenuous, bad faith argument, or comes from a place of honest ignorance. No other Half-caster gets access to 9th level spells or can have a 5th level spell at 9 or a 3rd level at 5. Yes you have to use your invocations, guess what. Other classes dont HAVE invocations....Saying new warlock doesn't feel good to play, ok, saying it weaker, fine. I have literally shown that at level 11+ that it is very true, by almost every metric. Before, it is debatable, the power has shifted not reduced. Again that comes back to feel.
And if you say warlock "feels" like a ranger, only if you purposefully built it that way.
These hyperboles on both ends of this debate, doesnt do your arguments any favors. You need to acknowledge the merits and the demerits of both to have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise you are just shouting into the wind guys.
And yet they are half casters. Having the option to blow half your features to become 2/3 caster doesn't change that. So yeah, goth rangers.
Disingenuous, not helpful. They aren't true half-casters nor are they true 2/3rd casters. Spells as features is not unheard of.
Saying my truthful opinion is disingenuous is unhelpful as well. They are literally half casters unless you dump 1/2 their features into spell casting at which point they are basically 2/3 casters or if you prefer 3/4 casters. Recognizing reality is not being disingenuous.
If this is your honest opinion, than you know nothing at all about what you are talking about. You are arguing against a strawman Warlock you concocted in your head and not the UA Warlock.
Ahh, the No True Half-Caster fallacy. Don't see that one too often
Please tell me which half caster gets to cast wish. Or even a single 3rd level spell at level 5.
The UA warlock
It's a half-caster chassis. The UA explicitly says if you multiclass, you count half your warlock levels to determine your spell slot progression
Your continual denials of that very clear reality are kind of weird
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ahh, the No True Half-Caster fallacy. Don't see that one too often
Please tell me which half caster gets to cast wish. Or even a single 3rd level spell at level 5.
Seriously, treating this as something it ISNT rather than discussing what it IS doesn't help. It doesnt create greater understanding it doesnt create constructive feed back.
No half-caster gets access to spells at the levels the new warlock does. And those half casters still have less features even after people spend features on invocations.
Dont like it that is fine, but it isn't a ranger or a paladin. If your calling it this you are either purposefully disingenuous and purposefully working within hyperbole rather than wanting to have an honest straight forward discussion or B. You have no clue what you are talking about and either never played ranger, or haven't tried this lock at all. Your opinion is literally worthless, because you are arguing from a place of sheer ignorance.
I get it people can't have different opinions than you because if they do they are liars and idiots.
Alright, I really should stop expecting nuanced constructive conversation online.
One side.
"Short rests dont exist, old warlock sucked"
Other side
"New warlock is just a crappy ranger/paladin"
Any nuanced conversation about features or invocations or ACTUAL playstyles between old and new. nope. Just these pure black and white hyperbolic strawmen everywhere.
All I asked from people was could we stop the hyperbole and have real conversations, apparently the answer every time I have asked it is a resounding NO!!.We love living in our world of hyperbole and strawmen that we can argue against.
Any nuanced conversation about features or invocations or ACTUAL playstyles between old and new. nope. Just these pure black and white hyperbolic strawmen everywhere.
LOL
Or you could try leading with, "Yes, OK, the UA warlock is in fact a half-caster, obviously, BUT..." rather than pretending it isn't. Maybe that might get you closer to those "nuanced conversations" you claim to want
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Or you could try leading with, "Yes, OK, the UA warlock is in fact a half-caster, obviously, BUT..." rather than pretending it isn't.
It doesn't function in the same way as a normal half-caster. Most half-casters only use spells for buffs and utility, because even your highest level spells are rarely a good use for an action in combat. Warlocks get spells that are actually worth spending your action on, they just have such a small number of uses that they're likely to use cantrips and attack actions in most fights, saving those small number of high level spells for special situations.
As a way of achieving the Gish concept, it's great -- existing 5e gishes either wind up playing just like full casters because their weapon skills are pathetic, or wind up going the self-buff path while using attack because their direct spellcasting is pathetic -- but if your desire is a full caster with a different feel, it's not going to get you there.
I suspect the reason the One D&D warlock became what it is now is because the 5e mechanics were problematic, they needed to give the class a distinctive identity, and 'full arcane caster' isn't one.
Or you could try leading with, "Yes, OK, the UA warlock is in fact a half-caster, obviously, BUT..." rather than pretending it isn't.
It doesn't function in the same way as a normal half-caster. Most half-casters only use spells for buffs and utility, because even your highest level spells are rarely a good use for an action in combat. Warlocks get spells that are actually worth spending your action on, they just have such a small number of uses that they're likely to use cantrips and attack actions in most fights, saving those small number of high level spells for special situations.
As a way of achieving the Gish concept, it's great -- existing 5e gishes either wind up playing just like full casters because their weapon skills are pathetic, or wind up going the self-buff path while using [action]attack[/spell] because their direct spellcasting is pathetic -- but if your desire is a full caster with a different feel, it's not going to get you there.
I suspect the reason the One D&D warlock became what it is now is because the 5e mechanics were problematic, they needed to give the class a distinctive identity, and 'full arcane caster' isn't one.
It objectively does function like a half caster: you only get up to 5th level spells via core class progression and they take about twice as long. The only problem is rather than coming up with a defined second half, they just tossed a few bells and whistles on the pact boons and called it a day. Invocations are not a second half, btw; they already exist on the current class and despite the spin there's still a ton of required picks to make your base class build functional.
It objectively does function like a half caster: you only get up to 5th level spells via core class progression and they take about twice as long.
The thing that makes it not function like a half caster is the existence of Mystic Arcanum, which basically is a complete second 'caster tree' stacked on top of its regular caster framework, and instead of having large numbers of weak spells, it has small numbers of strong spells. Honestly, they could delete the spells entirely (just give them mystic arcanum) and it would still fit in the mage group.
It objectively does function like a half caster: you only get up to 5th level spells via core class progression and they take about twice as long.
The thing that makes it not function like a half caster is the existence of Mystic Arcanum, which basically is a complete second 'caster tree' stacked on top of its regular caster framework, and instead of having large numbers of weak spells, it has small numbers of strong spells. Honestly, they could delete the spells entirely (just give them mystic arcanum) and it would still fit in the mage group.
The base class is objectively a half-caster. The fact that you can spend about half your invocations (at any level, not just final tally) for the premium upgrade doesn't change that.
It objectively does function like a half caster: you only get up to 5th level spells via core class progression and they take about twice as long.
The thing that makes it not function like a half caster is the existence of Mystic Arcanum, which basically is a complete second 'caster tree' stacked on top of its regular caster framework, and instead of having large numbers of weak spells, it has small numbers of strong spells. Honestly, they could delete the spells entirely (just give them mystic arcanum) and it would still fit in the mage group.
The base class is objectively a half-caster. The fact that you can spend about half your invocations (at any level, not just final tally) for the premium upgrade doesn't change that.
But, as said, it doesn't FUNCTION like one. It doesn't behave like one. The other half casters have a very distinct style that the warlock doesnt follow. The strength of a single cast will stay with the full casters, its spell DC will stay with the full casters and at the same time its ranged at will damage will match that of an archery based fighter. This is in addition to the pact boons and the other half of those invocations.
My opinion on that is the other invocations aren't strong enough to compete. The old "at will" invocations which were very needed utility on the Old warlock now feel like novelties on the new, for flavor and RP nothing more.
The base class is objectively a half-caster. The fact that you can spend about half your invocations (at any level, not just final tally) for the premium upgrade doesn't change that.
It doesn't change the base chassis, but that's a banal observation, because every class is more than its base chassis. You're supposed to evaluate the whole package - that's why they include the whole thing instead of just previewing one feature.
All I asked from people was could we stop the hyperbole and have real conversations, apparently the answer every time I have asked it is a resounding NO!!.We love living in our world of hyperbole and strawmen that we can argue against.
So have at it. Enjoy.
You didn't ask that you said you are liars or idiots. Why should anyone respond nicely to that.
And no its not a hyperbole anyways.
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And yet they are half casters. Having the option to blow half your features to become 2/3 caster doesn't change that. So yeah, goth rangers.
Disingenuous, not helpful. They aren't true half-casters nor are they true 2/3rd casters. Spells as features is not unheard of.
I wouldn't bother Aquil, people who are determined to not see any of the many differences between the UA Warlock and a ranger simply won't.
Saying my truthful opinion is disingenuous is unhelpful as well. They are literally half casters unless you dump 1/2 their features into spell casting at which point they are basically 2/3 casters or if you prefer 3/4 casters. Recognizing reality is not being disingenuous.
People determined to spin the goth ranger into something its not wont see how they are basically a goth ranger either.
Ahh, the No True Half-Caster fallacy. Don't see that one too often
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Sure thing 👍
I think it's less that they'll prevent it than that they'll discourage it. "You can mix classes with the same name from two eras if you want to, but we recommend you don't," probably.
Please tell me which half caster gets to cast wish. Or even a single 3rd level spell at level 5.
Seriously, treating this as something it ISNT rather than discussing what it IS doesn't help. It doesnt create greater understanding it doesnt create constructive feed back.
No half-caster gets access to spells at the levels the new warlock does. And those half casters still have less features even after people spend features on invocations.
Dont like it that is fine, but it isn't a ranger or a paladin. If your calling it this you are either purposefully disingenuous and purposefully working within hyperbole rather than wanting to have an honest straight forward discussion or B. You have no clue what you are talking about and either never played ranger, or haven't tried this lock at all. Your opinion is literally worthless, because you are arguing from a place of sheer ignorance.
If this is your honest opinion, than you know nothing at all about what you are talking about. You are arguing against a strawman Warlock you concocted in your head and not the UA Warlock.
The UA warlock
It's a half-caster chassis. The UA explicitly says if you multiclass, you count half your warlock levels to determine your spell slot progression
Your continual denials of that very clear reality are kind of weird
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I get it people can't have different opinions than you because if they do they are liars and idiots.
Alright, I really should stop expecting nuanced constructive conversation online.
One side.
"Short rests dont exist, old warlock sucked"
Other side
"New warlock is just a crappy ranger/paladin"
Any nuanced conversation about features or invocations or ACTUAL playstyles between old and new. nope. Just these pure black and white hyperbolic strawmen everywhere.
All I asked from people was could we stop the hyperbole and have real conversations, apparently the answer every time I have asked it is a resounding NO!!.We love living in our world of hyperbole and strawmen that we can argue against.
So have at it. Enjoy.
LOL
Or you could try leading with, "Yes, OK, the UA warlock is in fact a half-caster, obviously, BUT..." rather than pretending it isn't. Maybe that might get you closer to those "nuanced conversations" you claim to want
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It doesn't function in the same way as a normal half-caster. Most half-casters only use spells for buffs and utility, because even your highest level spells are rarely a good use for an action in combat. Warlocks get spells that are actually worth spending your action on, they just have such a small number of uses that they're likely to use cantrips and attack actions in most fights, saving those small number of high level spells for special situations.
As a way of achieving the Gish concept, it's great -- existing 5e gishes either wind up playing just like full casters because their weapon skills are pathetic, or wind up going the self-buff path while using attack because their direct spellcasting is pathetic -- but if your desire is a full caster with a different feel, it's not going to get you there.
I suspect the reason the One D&D warlock became what it is now is because the 5e mechanics were problematic, they needed to give the class a distinctive identity, and 'full arcane caster' isn't one.
It objectively does function like a half caster: you only get up to 5th level spells via core class progression and they take about twice as long. The only problem is rather than coming up with a defined second half, they just tossed a few bells and whistles on the pact boons and called it a day. Invocations are not a second half, btw; they already exist on the current class and despite the spin there's still a ton of required picks to make your base class build functional.
The thing that makes it not function like a half caster is the existence of Mystic Arcanum, which basically is a complete second 'caster tree' stacked on top of its regular caster framework, and instead of having large numbers of weak spells, it has small numbers of strong spells. Honestly, they could delete the spells entirely (just give them mystic arcanum) and it would still fit in the mage group.
The base class is objectively a half-caster. The fact that you can spend about half your invocations (at any level, not just final tally) for the premium upgrade doesn't change that.
But, as said, it doesn't FUNCTION like one. It doesn't behave like one. The other half casters have a very distinct style that the warlock doesnt follow. The strength of a single cast will stay with the full casters, its spell DC will stay with the full casters and at the same time its ranged at will damage will match that of an archery based fighter. This is in addition to the pact boons and the other half of those invocations.
My opinion on that is the other invocations aren't strong enough to compete. The old "at will" invocations which were very needed utility on the Old warlock now feel like novelties on the new, for flavor and RP nothing more.
It doesn't change the base chassis, but that's a banal observation, because every class is more than its base chassis. You're supposed to evaluate the whole package - that's why they include the whole thing instead of just previewing one feature.
You didn't ask that you said you are liars or idiots. Why should anyone respond nicely to that.
And no its not a hyperbole anyways.