The issue with the Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon combo was more than just sheer damage, it was one of action economy and of control. Nerfing the power a bit doesn't fix some of the other issues, Spirit Guardians reduces the speed of hostile targets by half, meanwhile Spirit Weapon gives Cleric something to do with their bonus action, which a lot of the time would be wasted.
Because both spells answer big questions for clerics and both spells last a duration of time, both should be concentration, any "reduction" in DPR isn't the answer to the problem to begin with, the answer is that the two spells should just never have been usable together and adding concentration to Spiritual Weapon also limited some other abusive tactics that clerics can do now they also have access to smite spells (altho that is likely to go away in future UAs, we will see).
Yeah, nah. Removing concentration is okay as it was fine as it was.
Agreed giving Spiritual Weapon Concentration is just idiotic as it becomes basically useless after certain levels. Besides some clerics actually love being able to be combat clerics with a use of their Bonus Action during a turn. Think of it as an extra attack for the class with the downside being it costs a spell slot, and it can be ran away from.
If people really hate the combo why not remove the debuff to movement that spirit guardian offers instead?
If people really hate the combo why not remove the debuff to movement that spirit guardian offers instead?
I think there are a few overlapping issues with the spirit guardians + spiritual weapon combo that are quite complicated to fix.
Cleric is a full caster, so that already gives them an enormous amount of flexibility and potential, especially as prepared casters who can completely change play-style over a long rest. But this specific combo enables basically any Cleric (though preferably one with heavy armour) to become, quite early on, an extremely capable front-line warrior that can compete with many martials, or even out-class them, as spirit guardians being an area effect means they can be arguably the best anti-horde front-liners in the game.
Now that's not to say that them having the option is a bad thing, and a paladin is probably still the stronger divine front-liner overall (being basically fighter + half cleric, with neither's weaknesses), but to me at least this feels like something that if a Cleric should be able to do it at all should be more within the wheelhouse of the War Domain.
However in 5e War Domain is no better at this combo than anyone else, because War Priest conflicts with spiritual weapon (though it's handy for when you don't want to burn a slot to cast it), meanwhile others like Forge Domain are actually better at it thanks to having passive bonuses. I'm hoping War Domain becomes the Cleric gish and gets a proper Extra Attack, while that will make them more paladin like, without Smite and passive auras I think it'd still be different enough (the crossover would only really matter if you had both a paladin and a war domain cleric in the same party anyway).
How to fix it "properly" though is complicated; I don't want to get rid of either spell, and though I initially wasn't that bothered by Smite spells becoming part of the general Divine list, I'm now leaning towards them going back to being Paladin only (with some Domains granting only specific ones as appropriate). But this will put us back to healing word and spiritual weapon being the top things Clerics do with their bonus action, so assuming they don't want to healing word every turn, what else can we give them to do with their bonus action? Do they need something else?
Action economy has always been a weird issue in 5e; because some classes were clearly designed to not have much to do with their bonus action (or only situational things), but then this just encourages players to take feats or multi-class dips to fill the bonus action so you can use it every turn, as using every action available to you can be such a big boost in strength. For OneD&D Wizards of the Coast really need to be thinking hard about making it so every class has ways to use their action and bonus action on most turns, so there are fewer obvious paths to optimise down (you might get a better bonus action, but it will no longer be as big a boost if it's replacing something else).
Spirit guardians fits into this in a tricky way though, because other than the setup it costs you nothing from your action economy to maintain it, so once active you can deal damage simply by using your movement cleverly, any action and/or bonus action you take on top of that is just even better. Meanwhile spiritual weapon doesn't really have a setup cost as you can use it as part of casting it, the only cost is it preventing you from casting as an action on the same turn (and the slot it consumes). The pair together make for a really good value use of your action economy.
I don't think removing the speed penalty on spirit guardians really fixes it, as this only helps enemies that need to close with you to stand a chance of breaking your concentration, but many could do that anyway (very few creatures within the area of effect would be unable to get to you), it's more about making it harder to escape which is IMO less of an issue.
If spiritual weapon were to return to having no concentration, then it would probably need more of a setup cost, i.e- action to cast it, bonus action to use it, so that's two full turns before the spirit guardians + spiritual weapon combo can really reach full effectiveness, which might enough? Hard to say though.
Whew, sorry for the huge wall of text, but I think it's a more complicated issue than people realise (including myself apparently, heh).
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For OneD&D Wizards of the Coast really need to be thinking hard about making it so every class has ways to use their action and bonus action on most turns, so there are fewer obvious paths to optimise down (you might get a better bonus action, but it will no longer be as big a boost if it's replacing something else).
That's an interesting thought..... What could really help close the Martial-Caster divide would be to make maintaining concentration on a spell require a bonus action just like how for a Barbarian to maintain their rage now costs a bonus action. This would rebalance a lot of concentration spells which honestly are OP already and it makes the loss of concentration when incapacitated much more natural / logical.
That's an interesting thought..... What could really help close the Martial-Caster divide would be to make maintaining concentration on a spell require a bonus action just like how for a Barbarian to maintain their rage now costs a bonus action. This would rebalance a lot of concentration spells which honestly are OP already and it makes the loss of concentration when incapacitated much more natural / logical.
Ooh, that's an interesting idea.
So in this case I'm assuming you'd would see spiritual weapon going back to no longer requiring concentration, but because the bonus action would be a requirement to maintain spirit guardians it still wouldn't be possible to combo them?
I could see that working, as it would make spiritual weapon more about bolstering whatever you do with your action (normal attacks, spells like inflict wounds etc.), and it could definitely tone down some of the current concentration + full action usage options across the board.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
That's an interesting thought..... What could really help close the Martial-Caster divide would be to make maintaining concentration on a spell require a bonus action just like how for a Barbarian to maintain their rage now costs a bonus action. This would rebalance a lot of concentration spells which honestly are OP already and it makes the loss of concentration when incapacitated much more natural / logical.
Ooh, that's an interesting idea.
So in this case I'm assuming you'd would see spiritual weapon going back to no longer requiring concentration, but because the bonus action would be a requirement to maintain spirit guardians it still wouldn't be possible to combo them?
I could see that working, as it would make spiritual weapon more about bolstering whatever you do with your action (normal attacks, spells like inflict wounds etc.), and it could definitely tone down some of the current concentration + full action usage options across the board.
Then we are simply back to where we are now of not being to use both spells at the same time and it becomes yet another nerf that possibly worse. How Barbarian uses their Bonus action is only if they are not attacking or being make a save to maintain rage. The bonus action use isn't a constant thing as if they make an attack or saving check then they won't have to use their Bonus action to maintain Rage. What you are proposing currently is worse as you are asking clerics to use their Bonus action to maintain no matter what just for concentration to keep Spirit guardians going. Which in my opinion is just not going to work given if you are forced to use a healing word then the concentration on the spirit guardians drops thus loss of dpr. Further It would make all concentration spells to be to costly in the long run of an adventure day as if the spell drops to easily then why cast it at all given how limited spell slots are.
Then we are simply back to where we are now of not being to use both spells at the same time and it becomes yet another nerf that possibly worse.
I think the first question you need to answer is "why not nerf it?"
We've seen other things get nerfed in the playtests already, like Paladin nova-smiting, so if other things are being toned down for better balance, then Cleric shouldn't expect special treatment. Is it the most broken combo in the game? Debatable, though spirit guardians does scale well already (thanks to it being d8's rather than d6's) and the more you can get in the aura, the better value it becomes; in many ways spiritual weapon is just icing on the cake, but together they're such an easy to maximise action economy for only two spell slots (unless you cast more as using your action which is kept available).
if you are forced to use a healing word then the concentration on the spirit guardians drops thus loss of dpr.
This is a fair point in that the bonus action alone to maintain concentration is probably too limiting on its own, but it could be extended; for example, bonus action or cast a spell, making it more Rage-like. In this way you're maintaining concentration by spending some time (action economy) on it, or spending magical resources. Concentration spells with their own bonus action should be self-maintaining when you use it.
I'm not saying it's specifically my preferred solution, but agilemind is right that concentration spells in 5e can be extremely powerful, and have no cost once they're running; as maintaining them is limited by your enemy's ability to force concentration saving throws, and even that's largely under your control (and you can make those saving throws easier). If all concentration spells require some kind of ongoing cost then that could go a long way to rebalancing spellcasters against non-spellcasters.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Which in my opinion is just not going to work given if you are forced to use a healing word then the concentration on the spirit guardians drops thus loss of dpr.
Exactly! It would make Cure Wounds a viable spell again, and nerf Healing Word which lots of people who like deadlier combat hate. Honestly all your complaints make me love this solution even more. And I wouldn't just do it for clerics, I'd do it for everyone! It nerfs the PAM / XbowXpert BA attack which drives me up the wall by making polearms and handcrossbows so much more powerful than all the other weapons - I mean come on a Longbow should be more powerful than a Handcrossbow damage wise, by making them incompatible with spells like Hunter's mark or Crusader's Mantle. It nerfs Healing Word so there is once again an actual cost to having to heal someone which makes buffs and defensive options much more viable rather than pure offense.
How about this for concentration spells: In the turns following the casting of a spell that requires concentration, the character can use a bonus action to maintain it, otherwise at the end of his turn he must make a Constitution saving throw on difficulty 8 (or 10) + level of the spell, if the failure loses concentration.
This does NOT force you to lose concentration if you don't sacrifice your bonus action, making it easier if you have proficiency, advantage, high build, and by concentrating on low level spells.
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But in the hypothetical case that they tweak the focus system as you suggest, they may also have to slightly compensate classes and subclasses where the vast majority of their spell repertoire or primary strategy is constantly using focus, or add a slight nerf to the rest of the spellcasters that don't rely on concentration so they're not out of balance with each other. (I prefer the 2nd option)
But in the hypothetical case that they tweak the focus system as you suggest, they may also have to slightly compensate classes and subclasses where the vast majority of their spell repertoire or primary strategy is constantly using focus, or add a slight nerf to the rest of the spellcasters that don't rely on concentration so they're not out of balance with each other. (I prefer the 2nd option)
Druid it's not an issue since they have nothing to do with their BA anyway (except endlessly cast Healing Word which isn't a good thing), it's only a significant nerf to 5e Bard where BI is a BA and the bulk of their spells are concentration. But with OneD&D BI is not going to be a BA so that isn't a problem anymore.
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oneDnd:
1. Spirit weapon: remove concentration, static damage. If not keep as is but lower to level 1 with con, damage buff every 2 levels above two
2. spirit guardians
- have it not scale unless scaling with cleric/paladin level in someway so it is on par with hunger of hadar
-or damage buff every two levels above 3
The issue with the Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon combo was more than just sheer damage, it was one of action economy and of control. Nerfing the power a bit doesn't fix some of the other issues, Spirit Guardians reduces the speed of hostile targets by half, meanwhile Spirit Weapon gives Cleric something to do with their bonus action, which a lot of the time would be wasted.
Because both spells answer big questions for clerics and both spells last a duration of time, both should be concentration, any "reduction" in DPR isn't the answer to the problem to begin with, the answer is that the two spells should just never have been usable together and adding concentration to Spiritual Weapon also limited some other abusive tactics that clerics can do now they also have access to smite spells (altho that is likely to go away in future UAs, we will see).
Yeah, nah. Removing concentration is okay as it was fine as it was.
Agreed giving Spiritual Weapon Concentration is just idiotic as it becomes basically useless after certain levels. Besides some clerics actually love being able to be combat clerics with a use of their Bonus Action during a turn. Think of it as an extra attack for the class with the downside being it costs a spell slot, and it can be ran away from.
If people really hate the combo why not remove the debuff to movement that spirit guardian offers instead?
I think there are a few overlapping issues with the spirit guardians + spiritual weapon combo that are quite complicated to fix.
Cleric is a full caster, so that already gives them an enormous amount of flexibility and potential, especially as prepared casters who can completely change play-style over a long rest. But this specific combo enables basically any Cleric (though preferably one with heavy armour) to become, quite early on, an extremely capable front-line warrior that can compete with many martials, or even out-class them, as spirit guardians being an area effect means they can be arguably the best anti-horde front-liners in the game.
Now that's not to say that them having the option is a bad thing, and a paladin is probably still the stronger divine front-liner overall (being basically fighter + half cleric, with neither's weaknesses), but to me at least this feels like something that if a Cleric should be able to do it at all should be more within the wheelhouse of the War Domain.
However in 5e War Domain is no better at this combo than anyone else, because War Priest conflicts with spiritual weapon (though it's handy for when you don't want to burn a slot to cast it), meanwhile others like Forge Domain are actually better at it thanks to having passive bonuses. I'm hoping War Domain becomes the Cleric gish and gets a proper Extra Attack, while that will make them more paladin like, without Smite and passive auras I think it'd still be different enough (the crossover would only really matter if you had both a paladin and a war domain cleric in the same party anyway).
How to fix it "properly" though is complicated; I don't want to get rid of either spell, and though I initially wasn't that bothered by Smite spells becoming part of the general Divine list, I'm now leaning towards them going back to being Paladin only (with some Domains granting only specific ones as appropriate). But this will put us back to healing word and spiritual weapon being the top things Clerics do with their bonus action, so assuming they don't want to healing word every turn, what else can we give them to do with their bonus action? Do they need something else?
Action economy has always been a weird issue in 5e; because some classes were clearly designed to not have much to do with their bonus action (or only situational things), but then this just encourages players to take feats or multi-class dips to fill the bonus action so you can use it every turn, as using every action available to you can be such a big boost in strength. For OneD&D Wizards of the Coast really need to be thinking hard about making it so every class has ways to use their action and bonus action on most turns, so there are fewer obvious paths to optimise down (you might get a better bonus action, but it will no longer be as big a boost if it's replacing something else).
Spirit guardians fits into this in a tricky way though, because other than the setup it costs you nothing from your action economy to maintain it, so once active you can deal damage simply by using your movement cleverly, any action and/or bonus action you take on top of that is just even better. Meanwhile spiritual weapon doesn't really have a setup cost as you can use it as part of casting it, the only cost is it preventing you from casting as an action on the same turn (and the slot it consumes). The pair together make for a really good value use of your action economy.
I don't think removing the speed penalty on spirit guardians really fixes it, as this only helps enemies that need to close with you to stand a chance of breaking your concentration, but many could do that anyway (very few creatures within the area of effect would be unable to get to you), it's more about making it harder to escape which is IMO less of an issue.
If spiritual weapon were to return to having no concentration, then it would probably need more of a setup cost, i.e- action to cast it, bonus action to use it, so that's two full turns before the spirit guardians + spiritual weapon combo can really reach full effectiveness, which might enough? Hard to say though.
Whew, sorry for the huge wall of text, but I think it's a more complicated issue than people realise (including myself apparently, heh).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
That's an interesting thought..... What could really help close the Martial-Caster divide would be to make maintaining concentration on a spell require a bonus action just like how for a Barbarian to maintain their rage now costs a bonus action. This would rebalance a lot of concentration spells which honestly are OP already and it makes the loss of concentration when incapacitated much more natural / logical.
Ooh, that's an interesting idea.
So in this case I'm assuming you'd would see spiritual weapon going back to no longer requiring concentration, but because the bonus action would be a requirement to maintain spirit guardians it still wouldn't be possible to combo them?
I could see that working, as it would make spiritual weapon more about bolstering whatever you do with your action (normal attacks, spells like inflict wounds etc.), and it could definitely tone down some of the current concentration + full action usage options across the board.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Then we are simply back to where we are now of not being to use both spells at the same time and it becomes yet another nerf that possibly worse. How Barbarian uses their Bonus action is only if they are not attacking or being make a save to maintain rage. The bonus action use isn't a constant thing as if they make an attack or saving check then they won't have to use their Bonus action to maintain Rage. What you are proposing currently is worse as you are asking clerics to use their Bonus action to maintain no matter what just for concentration to keep Spirit guardians going. Which in my opinion is just not going to work given if you are forced to use a healing word then the concentration on the spirit guardians drops thus loss of dpr. Further It would make all concentration spells to be to costly in the long run of an adventure day as if the spell drops to easily then why cast it at all given how limited spell slots are.
I think the first question you need to answer is "why not nerf it?"
We've seen other things get nerfed in the playtests already, like Paladin nova-smiting, so if other things are being toned down for better balance, then Cleric shouldn't expect special treatment. Is it the most broken combo in the game? Debatable, though spirit guardians does scale well already (thanks to it being d8's rather than d6's) and the more you can get in the aura, the better value it becomes; in many ways spiritual weapon is just icing on the cake, but together they're such an easy to maximise action economy for only two spell slots (unless you cast more as using your action which is kept available).
This is a fair point in that the bonus action alone to maintain concentration is probably too limiting on its own, but it could be extended; for example, bonus action or cast a spell, making it more Rage-like. In this way you're maintaining concentration by spending some time (action economy) on it, or spending magical resources. Concentration spells with their own bonus action should be self-maintaining when you use it.
I'm not saying it's specifically my preferred solution, but agilemind is right that concentration spells in 5e can be extremely powerful, and have no cost once they're running; as maintaining them is limited by your enemy's ability to force concentration saving throws, and even that's largely under your control (and you can make those saving throws easier). If all concentration spells require some kind of ongoing cost then that could go a long way to rebalancing spellcasters against non-spellcasters.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Exactly! It would make Cure Wounds a viable spell again, and nerf Healing Word which lots of people who like deadlier combat hate. Honestly all your complaints make me love this solution even more. And I wouldn't just do it for clerics, I'd do it for everyone! It nerfs the PAM / XbowXpert BA attack which drives me up the wall by making polearms and handcrossbows so much more powerful than all the other weapons - I mean come on a Longbow should be more powerful than a Handcrossbow damage wise, by making them incompatible with spells like Hunter's mark or Crusader's Mantle. It nerfs Healing Word so there is once again an actual cost to having to heal someone which makes buffs and defensive options much more viable rather than pure offense.
How about this for concentration spells: In the turns following the casting of a spell that requires concentration, the character can use a bonus action to maintain it, otherwise at the end of his turn he must make a Constitution saving throw on difficulty 8 (or 10) + level of the spell, if the failure loses concentration.
This does NOT force you to lose concentration if you don't sacrifice your bonus action, making it easier if you have proficiency, advantage, high build, and by concentrating on low level spells.
-
But in the hypothetical case that they tweak the focus system as you suggest, they may also have to slightly compensate classes and subclasses where the vast majority of their spell repertoire or primary strategy is constantly using focus, or add a slight nerf to the rest of the spellcasters that don't rely on concentration so they're not out of balance with each other. (I prefer the 2nd option)
Druid it's not an issue since they have nothing to do with their BA anyway (except endlessly cast Healing Word which isn't a good thing), it's only a significant nerf to 5e Bard where BI is a BA and the bulk of their spells are concentration. But with OneD&D BI is not going to be a BA so that isn't a problem anymore.