Really? In the UA warcaster is a half-feat, so what is my caster character losing out on to take it?
Fey-Touched, Shadow-Touched, Metamagic Adept, Telekinetic, Telepathic, Spell Sniper, Keen Mind, Skill Expert, Resilient, Elemental Adept and those are just the ones we know about in core. As more books get printed with additional powerful options (lolCartomancer), the opportunity cost will only grow.
"Well *I* built a bunch of characters and didn't pick anything but War Caster" isn't persuasive.
2014 HM is definitely the best spell for low level rangers compared to the other 1st level spell options.
If you shift the goalposts to "low-level Rangers" then sure, HM is probably the best option, though even then I'd say Ensnaring Strike is at least competitive depending on the opponent.
I also feel like in every post from now on I might need to bring up all the arguments from previous post because you seem to ignore things that were brought up previously.
1. HM is bad because it interferes with casting all the other concentration spells on your spell list, some of which are unique Ranger spells.
2. If HM is suppose to be the Rangers main unique feature it brings nothing special for class in any pillar of play. It actually becomes less useful in the combat pillar as you get better spells.
3. The Ranger doesn’t get to be special in a party with a Druid. Where as a Paladin still feels unique next to a Cleric.
4. A free casting of HM can’t be dropped no fuss. That free casting wasn’t free in regards to game design. It cost you a first level feature. It could have been something useful to your gameplay. Also they went as far as to tie 3 features to HM, 2 of which are well beyond HM useful stage with neither really making HM better than some of the other spell options.
5. 2024 Rangers are better than 2014 Rangers without a doubt, but they are really a just equal to or slightly worse than Tasha’s Ranger. With every class getting a better Rangers are at the bottom of the barrel or very close to it. 2024 Rangers don’t have anything special going for them.
I didn't ignore any of these. Here, I'll address them again:
1) Multiple Ranger spells are losing concentration, until we know which ones we can't say how a HM focus will truly affect them at various level brackets. But even if absolutely none of them lost concentration, you're still getting free uses of HM which will make dropping it to concentrate on something more powerful fairly frictionless.
2) I've already said that it's a mistake to think of the Ranger as being one key feature when they are a combination, including their non-spell things like Expertise and Roving. I can't tell you how to think though, only point out areas where your disappointment is likely to be inevitable.
3) Druids can get a single Expertise, and they have to burn a valuable feat (see above post for just the core opportunity costs) to do it. The Ranger gets 3 with no feat, and can pick up the 4th if they really want to. If you can't figure out how to be special with 4x Expertise, the problem is not the books.
4) "It could have been something useful" is the most vague and pointless argument I've seen yet. It could just as easily have been something useless, like 2014 Favored Enemy or 2021 Favored Foe - you know, the last two they got.
5) "2024 is equal to or slightly worse than Tasha's" is and continues to be wrong for the reasons I've explained repeatedly. (Now who's ignoring things that were brought up previously? Irony much?)
Really? In the UA warcaster is a half-feat, so what is my caster character losing out on to take it?
Fey-Touched, Shadow-Touched, Metamagic Adept, Telekinetic, Telepathic, Spell Sniper, Keen Mind, Skill Expert, Resilient, Elemental Adept and those are just the ones we know about in core. As more books get printed with additional powerful options (lolCartomancer), the opportunity cost will only grow.
"Well *I* built a bunch of characters and didn't pick anything but War Caster" isn't persuasive.
Fey-Touched - decent for Divine/Primal casters waste of time for everyone else. Shadow-Touched - sux, you only need one person in the party capable of casting Invis, and Necro spells are awful Metamagic Adept - can't judge until we see the new metamagics - but a once per day cool thing is pretty lame for a feat. Telekinetic - mostly useless now, cause everyone and their nana can push creatures better than this feat. Telepathic - super niche, just use a Stealth check to whisper to your friends. Spell Sniper - uber niche, attack roll spells all have plenty of range already, and the UA suggests half the casters classes might get bonus range features baked in Keen Mind - aka, the "I'm too lazy to write notes" feat... Skill Expert - why do I want this on a caster except to overshadow the Expert classes like Ranger? (weren't you just arguing that clerics & druids would never take this feat?) Resilient - why would I want this on a caster except to also boost my concentration checks? Elemental Adept - this has always been garbage.
For someone's who's all "DPR is all that matters to judge the quality of a class" why are you suddenly trying to argue super niche out-of-combat feats are any good?
Fey Touched and Telekinetic are only modestly popular now because they even out an odd casting stat and aren't completely useless. If I have the choice to even out an odd casting stat and get a secondary benefit that's actually good like Warcaster, I'm 100% taking that instead.
1) Multiple Ranger spells are losing concentration, until we know which ones we can't say how a HM focus will truly affect them at various level brackets. But even if absolutely none of them lost concentration, you're still getting free uses of HM which will make dropping it to concentrate on something more powerful fairly frictionless.
These are the only Ranger-specific spells:
Hunter's Mark[c] - we know is not losing concentration requirement
Ensnaring Strike[c] - would only be ok if it lost the concentration requirement, because the major problem with this spell is the enemies you most want to restrain are the brutes, but because it is a STR save those are also the enemies most likely to succeed the save. I seriously doubt it will lose the concentration requirement.
Hail of Thorns[c] - without concentration this would be the Ranger "smite" it's pretty terrible though since they get a save for 1/2 damage and it deals a piddly 1d10 damage. You need a minimum 3 enemies within 5ft of each other for this to be worth casting even if it didn't need concentration.
Cordon of Arrows - already not concentration and almost never used b/c it sux
Conjure Barrage - already not concentration and almost never used b/c it sux, you need a huge field of enemies without any of your allies in the way for it to be worth casting. OK against a zombie horde, not any other time.
Lightning Arrow[c] - good in a game with no magic weapons, but once you've got a magic weapon you're usually better off with Hunters Mark + magic weapon regardless of concentration.
Conjure Volley - already doesn't need concentration, dealing non-magical damage in tier 4 is mostly a waste of time.
Swift Quiver[c] - I doubt this one will lose concentration, but if it does and they fix it so you make the 2 attacks when you first cast it then it would manage to bring all the other rangers up to the level of Beastmaster at the low-low cost of their only 5th level spell.
For someone's who's all "DPR is all that matters to judge the quality of a class" why are you suddenly trying to argue super niche out-of-combat feats are any good?
Your opinion of feats is clearly as bad as all the others. And every feat above is set to be a half-feat in 2024, on top of the buffs you're missing like Keen Mind being tied to the Study action now, so you're once again applying 2014 thinking to the UA forum for some reason I can't fathom. If all you care about is the 2014 game then why are you even posting here?
For someone's who's all "DPR is all that matters to judge the quality of a class" why are you suddenly trying to argue super niche out-of-combat feats are any good?
Your opinion of feats is clearly as bad as all the others. And every feat above is set to be a half-feat in 2024, on top of the buffs you're missing like Keen Mind being tied to the Study action now, so you're once again applying 2014 thinking to the UA forum for some reason I can't fathom. If all you care about is the 2014 game then why are you even posting here?
Oooh the Study action, I can use a Bonus Action to learn that a fire elemental is immune to fire. OMG so useful!
I also feel like in every post from now on I might need to bring up all the arguments from previous post because you seem to ignore things that were brought up previously.
1. HM is bad because it interferes with casting all the other concentration spells on your spell list, some of which are unique Ranger spells.
2. If HM is suppose to be the Rangers main unique feature it brings nothing special for class in any pillar of play. It actually becomes less useful in the combat pillar as you get better spells.
3. The Ranger doesn’t get to be special in a party with a Druid. Where as a Paladin still feels unique next to a Cleric.
4. A free casting of HM can’t be dropped no fuss. That free casting wasn’t free in regards to game design. It cost you a first level feature. It could have been something useful to your gameplay. Also they went as far as to tie 3 features to HM, 2 of which are well beyond HM useful stage with neither really making HM better than some of the other spell options.
5. 2024 Rangers are better than 2014 Rangers without a doubt, but they are really a just equal to or slightly worse than Tasha’s Ranger. With every class getting a better Rangers are at the bottom of the barrel or very close to it. 2024 Rangers don’t have anything special going for them.
I didn't ignore any of these. Here, I'll address them again:
1) Multiple Ranger spells are losing concentration, until we know which ones we can't say how a HM focus will truly affect them at various level brackets. But even if absolutely none of them lost concentration, you're still getting free uses of HM which will make dropping it to concentrate on something more powerful fairly frictionless.
2) I've already said that it's a mistake to think of the Ranger as being one key feature when they are a combination, including their non-spell things like Expertise and Roving. I can't tell you how to think though, only point out areas where your disappointment is likely to be inevitable.
3) Druids can get a single Expertise, and they have to burn a valuable feat (see above post for just the core opportunity costs) to do it. The Ranger gets 3 with no feat, and can pick up the 4th if they really want to. If you can't figure out how to be special with 4x Expertise, the problem is not the books.
4) "It could have been something useful" is the most vague and pointless argument I've seen yet. It could just as easily have been something useless, like 2014 Favored Enemy or 2021 Favored Foe - you know, the last two they got.
5) "2024 is equal to or slightly worse than Tasha's" is and continues to be wrong for the reasons I've explained repeatedly. (Now who's ignoring things that were brought up previously? Irony much?)
I never moved the goal post, but for some reason you decided I was comparing HM to all the spells on the rangers list. It would be like me talking about magic missile and you telling me fireball is far superior. Contest is very important.
Anyway let’s talk about how you are still ignoring important points, or rather talking around them.
1. Well we see which spells lost concentration, but again nothing is free. HM is not free it cost a feature.
2. It doesn’t matter if you say Ranger isn’t one key feature when 3 of its features involve HM I have to say HM is their key feature. Beast Master and Hunter also have features that use HM. What you say and what is true are two separate things. Also no class is one key feature, but all the other have something unique. Rangers have nothing. Roving is extra movement. Monks and Barbarians have extra movement. Expertise is shared with three classes.
3. I showed you that Druids don’t need expertise for Wis based skills because simply focusing on their primary stat and taking a cantrip they normally would take places them at or above the normal Ranger with expertise until 9th lvl. Expertise shines at high levels when the proficiency bonus is higher. It’s also good when it’s on a check that is your primary stat. For a Ranger it’s just bringing them up to par unless they are specifically built Ranger that I already discussed. 4X Expertise is great, but the Rogue does it better and since this is a game with a group the Ranger sits in this place of great if you party doesn’t have this other class.
4. You do realize that once you have better combat spells to use your concentration HM is worse than 2014 Favored Enemy. At least that gave you a language and advantage on some checks. Having Free casting of a spell you don’t need is a waste. Favored Foe was bad because they didn’t want it to stack with HM. They were starting fresh so they could have fixed that problem.
5. You haven’t explained how it’s better than Tasha’s. You have only explained how it’s better than 2014 which I agree. Having more Expertise does not make you a better Ranger. It’s making up for losing the advantage on skill checks. Remember with Tasha’s you could take deft explorer and still keep favored enemy which is what I did. I had plenty of languages, advantage on Wis and Int checks for my chosen creatures and expertise in perception. Also I had a cantrip build Ranger that I didn’t get to play that would have used favored foe since it didn’t require a weapon attack. I believe the new HM does not require a weapon attack as well which is an improvement, but that alone does not make 2024 superior to Tasha’s Ranger. I’ll say 2024 is equal to Tasha’s, but Tasha’s Ranger was in better place compared to all classes since all the other classes didn’t get buffs. In 2024 Ranger will sit at or near the bottom of the barrel.
I never moved the goal post, but for some reason you decided I was comparing HM to all the spells on the rangers list. It would be like me talking about magic missile and you telling me fireball is far superior. Contest is very important.
Anyway let’s talk about how you are still ignoring important points, or rather talking around them.
1. Well we see which spells lost concentration, but again nothing is free. HM is not free it cost a feature.
2. It doesn’t matter if you say Ranger isn’t one key feature when 3 of its features involve HM I have to say HM is their key feature. Beast Master and Hunter also have features that use HM. What you say and what is true are two separate things. Also no class is one key feature, but all the other have something unique. Rangers have nothing. Roving is extra movement. Monks and Barbarians have extra movement. Expertise is shared with three classes.
3. I showed you that Druids don’t need expertise for Wis based skills because simply focusing on their primary stat and taking a cantrip they normally would take places them at or above the normal Ranger with expertise until 9th lvl. Expertise shines at high levels when the proficiency bonus is higher. It’s also good when it’s on a check that is your primary stat. For a Ranger it’s just bringing them up to par unless they are specifically built Ranger that I already discussed. 4X Expertise is great, but the Rogue does it better and since this is a game with a group the Ranger sits in this place of great if you party doesn’t have this other class.
4. You do realize that once you have better combat spells to use your concentration HM is worse than 2014 Favored Enemy. At least that gave you a language and advantage on some checks. Having Free casting of a spell you don’t need is a waste. Favored Foe was bad because they didn’t want it to stack with HM. They were starting fresh so they could have fixed that problem.
5. You haven’t explained how it’s better than Tasha’s. You have only explained how it’s better than 2014 which I agree. Having more Expertise does not make you a better Ranger. It’s making up for losing the advantage on skill checks. Remember with Tasha’s you could take deft explorer and still keep favored enemy which is what I did. I had plenty of languages, advantage on Wis and Int checks for my chosen creatures and expertise in perception. Also I had a cantrip build Ranger that I didn’t get to play that would have used favored foe since it didn’t require a weapon attack. I believe the new HM does not require a weapon attack as well which is an improvement, but that alone does not make 2024 superior to Tasha’s Ranger. I’ll say 2024 is equal to Tasha’s, but Tasha’s Ranger was in better place compared to all classes since all the other classes didn’t get buffs. In 2024 Ranger will sit at or near the bottom of the barrel.
1. It cost a feature by giving you a feature. That's how features work. (Or at least, how they're supposed to; 2014 Ranger seemed to have missed the memo in several spots.)
2. And when you're not using HM, newflash, you're still a Ranger.
3. Guidance uses concentration, is impractical for multiple checks (constantly needing to chant after every check while you're trying to Stealth somewhere is counterproductive, no? How about mid-conversation?) and above all, the Ranger can easily get it too so constantly pointing at Guidance to try and invalidate Expertise is nonsensical.
4. It can't possibly be worse than 2014 Favored Enemy because it actually does something in a fight. And getting advantage is cake now that they've confirmed the tool rule made it to print. Yes there are better spells, but those spells are more costly too; HM is fine.
5. Weapon Mastery, 3x Expertise, swapping spells on a long rest, rituals, double-duration greater invisibility, origin feats, any fighting style, better Feral Senses, and I haven't even touched on the HM improvements - all things I've said repeatedly that you're continuing to ignore. Tasha Ranger gets none of it. Zero.
I never moved the goal post, but for some reason you decided I was comparing HM to all the spells on the rangers list. It would be like me talking about magic missile and you telling me fireball is far superior. Contest is very important.
Anyway let’s talk about how you are still ignoring important points, or rather talking around them.
1. Well we see which spells lost concentration, but again nothing is free. HM is not free it cost a feature.
2. It doesn’t matter if you say Ranger isn’t one key feature when 3 of its features involve HM I have to say HM is their key feature. Beast Master and Hunter also have features that use HM. What you say and what is true are two separate things. Also no class is one key feature, but all the other have something unique. Rangers have nothing. Roving is extra movement. Monks and Barbarians have extra movement. Expertise is shared with three classes.
3. I showed you that Druids don’t need expertise for Wis based skills because simply focusing on their primary stat and taking a cantrip they normally would take places them at or above the normal Ranger with expertise until 9th lvl. Expertise shines at high levels when the proficiency bonus is higher. It’s also good when it’s on a check that is your primary stat. For a Ranger it’s just bringing them up to par unless they are specifically built Ranger that I already discussed. 4X Expertise is great, but the Rogue does it better and since this is a game with a group the Ranger sits in this place of great if you party doesn’t have this other class.
4. You do realize that once you have better combat spells to use your concentration HM is worse than 2014 Favored Enemy. At least that gave you a language and advantage on some checks. Having Free casting of a spell you don’t need is a waste. Favored Foe was bad because they didn’t want it to stack with HM. They were starting fresh so they could have fixed that problem.
5. You haven’t explained how it’s better than Tasha’s. You have only explained how it’s better than 2014 which I agree. Having more Expertise does not make you a better Ranger. It’s making up for losing the advantage on skill checks. Remember with Tasha’s you could take deft explorer and still keep favored enemy which is what I did. I had plenty of languages, advantage on Wis and Int checks for my chosen creatures and expertise in perception. Also I had a cantrip build Ranger that I didn’t get to play that would have used favored foe since it didn’t require a weapon attack. I believe the new HM does not require a weapon attack as well which is an improvement, but that alone does not make 2024 superior to Tasha’s Ranger. I’ll say 2024 is equal to Tasha’s, but Tasha’s Ranger was in better place compared to all classes since all the other classes didn’t get buffs. In 2024 Ranger will sit at or near the bottom of the barrel.
1. It cost a feature by giving you a feature. That's how features work. (Or at least, how they're supposed to; 2014 Ranger seemed to have missed the memo in several spots.)
2. And when you're not using HM, newflash, you're still a Ranger.
3. Guidance uses concentration, is impractical for multiple checks (constantly needing to chant after every check while you're trying to Stealth somewhere is counterproductive, no? How about mid-conversation?) and above all, the Ranger can easily get it too so constantly pointing at Guidance to try and invalidate Expertise is nonsensical.
4. It can't possibly be worse than 2014 Favored Enemy because it actually does something in a fight. And getting advantage is cake now that they've confirmed the tool rule made it to print. Yes there are better spells, but those spells are more costly too; HM is fine.
5. Weapon Mastery, 3x Expertise, swapping spells on a long rest, rituals, double-duration greater invisibility, origin feats, any fighting style, better Feral Senses, and I haven't even touched on the HM improvements - all things I've said repeatedly that you're continuing to ignore. Tasha Ranger gets none of it. Zero.
1. It could be a feature you will use. Remember your argument was you can just drop concentration on HM. So my point is you now have a wasted feature.
2. I’m not sure what the “you’re still a Ranger” argument means. When you’re not using HM you aren’t using 3 features of Ranger, 4 if you are a Hunter or Beastmaster.
3. The new guidance last for an hour, so it’s just once and you can make all the survival or perception checks you need you only need to chant again to change what skill it’s on. I also pointed out that it’s not easy for a Ranger to get it. They have to use a feat or give up their fighting style. You are arguing with yourself. You stated this Druids have to take a feat to get expertise and because of that cost that should not be considered.
4. It does nothing in a fight if you are using your better concentration spells. You are literally arguing with yourself on this. You told me that I should be using spike growth, summon beast, and better concentration spells. You can’t have it both ways. Favored enemy still does something at a point I no longer cast HM.
5. Way to list a bunch of things that aren’t Ranger improvements. Weapon Mastery was given to most martials and if they literally pulled Tasha’s Ranger forward word for word they would have given it the new feature of the game as well. More Expertise does not make you a better Ranger. When you don’t have a high stat in a skill advantage can be better than expertise especially at low levels, and that advantage was focused on Ranger things. For people who like to control their character build more expertise is an improvement, but to people looking for any flavor it’s a lateral move at best. Swapping spells on a long rest is cool and so are rituals, but really are improvements they gave to a lot of classes as a game wide improvement. The invisibility should last longer since you get it much later. Some will never see it now. Origin feats are for everyone so don’t use that to show the 2024 Ranger is better than Tasha’s. If you play an 2014 character in the 2024 game they already said you would get origin feats by taking a 2024 background. That’s not even part of the class. It’s a game improvement not a class improvement. Using any fighting style only matters if you aren’t using a bow, crossbow or two weapon fighting. Not an improvement for most. Feral Senses is actually worse. If you were an archer shooting at an enemy you couldn’t see beyond 30ft you wouldn’t have disadvantage. With the new version you would. It’s niche that would occur, but the old version is actually just better. The new version is easier to understand and take up less words. You can’t touch on the HM improvements because they are technically bad for the overall kit. Some of them are wasted features. Let’s pole the community to see which class has the worse capstone feature. What’s funny is that 2014 Foe Slayer might actually be a better capstone. Especially for people who are concentrating on a spell other than HM.
3. Guidance uses concentration, is impractical for multiple checks (constantly needing to chant after every check while you're trying to Stealth somewhere is counterproductive, no? How about mid-conversation?) and above all, the Ranger can easily get it too so constantly pointing at Guidance to try and invalidate Expertise is nonsensical.
What are you talking about? Why would a Ranger put their Expertise into a CHA skill that would make them mediocre at best at that skill? A Ranger putting their Expertise into Stealth is only matching the Rogue making them completely unspecial. You were arguing that Ranger's unique niche is they are the best at Survival. Why would there be a problem to cast Guidance when foraging for food or tracking some footprints? You also constantly argue that taking a feat is a huge cost, except when it comes to Guidance for Ranger - make up your mind, is taking a feat is huge cost or not? A Ranger has to sacrifice Alert or Toughness or getting access to Shield in order to get Guidance that's a huge cost when 2024 Ranger wants to be in melee but has the weakest defenses of any martial.
Can we not wait 1.5 hrs to finally kill this topic? We already know Ranger spells have been improved from the myriad posts online and in the internet ether. Everywhere I see: Ranger's are Ded". Well, to use Dungeon Dudes words:
"Reports of the Ranger's demise have been grossly exaggerated"
Treantmonk's embargo is lifted and he confirmed that HM is 1d6 per hit like 2014, not the crappy 1/round scaling one from the UA. That means the free uses are just as powerful as the spell slot ones.
1. It could be a feature you will use. Remember your argument was you can just drop concentration on HM. So my point is you now have a wasted feature.
2. I’m not sure what the “you’re still a Ranger” argument means. When you’re not using HM you aren’t using 3 features of Ranger, 4 if you are a Hunter or Beastmaster.
3. The new guidance last for an hour, so it’s just once and you can make all the survival or perception checks you need you only need to chant again to change what skill it’s on. I also pointed out that it’s not easy for a Ranger to get it. They have to use a feat or give up their fighting style. You are arguing with yourself. You stated this Druids have to take a feat to get expertise and because of that cost that should not be considered.
4. It does nothing in a fight if you are using your better concentration spells. You are literally arguing with yourself on this. You told me that I should be using spike growth, summon beast, and better concentration spells. You can’t have it both ways. Favored enemy still does something at a point I no longer cast HM.
5. Way to list a bunch of things that aren’t Ranger improvements. Weapon Mastery was given to most martials and if they literally pulled Tasha’s Ranger forward word for word they would have given it the new feature of the game as well. More Expertise does not make you a better Ranger. When you don’t have a high stat in a skill advantage can be better than expertise especially at low levels, and that advantage was focused on Ranger things. For people who like to control their character build more expertise is an improvement, but to people looking for any flavor it’s a lateral move at best. Swapping spells on a long rest is cool and so are rituals, but really are improvements they gave to a lot of classes as a game wide improvement. The invisibility should last longer since you get it much later. Some will never see it now. Origin feats are for everyone so don’t use that to show the 2024 Ranger is better than Tasha’s. If you play an 2014 character in the 2024 game they already said you would get origin feats by taking a 2024 background. That’s not even part of the class. It’s a game improvement not a class improvement. Using any fighting style only matters if you aren’t using a bow, crossbow or two weapon fighting. Not an improvement for most. Feral Senses is actually worse. If you were an archer shooting at an enemy you couldn’t see beyond 30ft you wouldn’t have disadvantage. With the new version you would. It’s niche that would occur, but the old version is actually just better. The new version is easier to understand and take up less words. You can’t touch on the HM improvements because they are technically bad for the overall kit. Some of them are wasted features. Let’s pole the community to see which class has the worse capstone feature. What’s funny is that 2014 Foe Slayer might actually be a better capstone. Especially for people who are concentrating on a spell other than HM.
1. A feature you're not using right this second is not "wasted." This is like saying Action Surge is a wasted feature while your fighter isn't in combat.
2. It means that you still have Expertise, Weapon Masteries, all your proficiencies, all your other spells... all the things you get from BEING a Ranger.
3. Guidance lasts for an hour OR until you use the die on a check. So in practice, it'll never lasts the full hour before you need to chant again if you want the buff more than once.
4. Again, your logic here is that when you're concentrating on one spell all your other spells cease to exist. That's nonsense. Spells represent options - if I'm concentrating on Spike Growth and all the enemies take to the sky, I have the option of dropping Spike Growth and swapping to HM. That makes HM a useful feature for me, even if I'm not using it right now. And that is the impasse you and I will seemingly never see eye to eye on.
5. The fact that you don't see any of those things as improvements means I don't have to take your optimization views seriously.
What are you talking about? Why would a Ranger put their Expertise into a CHA skill that would make them mediocre at best at that skill? A Ranger putting their Expertise into Stealth is only matching the Rogue making them completely unspecial. You were arguing that Ranger's unique niche is they are the best at Survival. Why would there be a problem to cast Guidance when foraging for food or tracking some footprints? You also constantly argue that taking a feat is a huge cost, except when it comes to Guidance for Ranger - make up your mind, is taking a feat is huge cost or not? A Ranger has to sacrifice Alert or Toughness or getting access to Shield in order to get Guidance that's a huge cost when 2024 Ranger wants to be in melee but has the weakest defenses of any martial.
Handle Animal and Insight are also social skills, did you realize that?
Expertise in Stealth is a good thing because you have to clear a static 15 to even get the Hidden condition to start with, but you want your check to be as high as possible because that becomes the DC for any searchers.
Survival is used for more things than foraging and footprints.
2024 Rangers can get Guidance without a feat in exchange for their fighting style, just like Tasha Rangers can. If you think that's a poor ability, then your judgment applies to both of them.
Can we not wait 1.5 hrs to finally kill this topic? We already know Ranger spells have been improved from the myriad posts online and in the internet ether. Everywhere I see: Ranger's are Ded". Well, to use Dungeon Dudes words:
"Reports of the Ranger's demise have been grossly exaggerated"
Thank you. Always good to see a voice of reason amidst the hysteria.
Expertise in Stealth is a good thing because you have to clear a static 15 to even get the Hidden condition to start with, but you want your check to be as high as possible because that becomes the DC for any searchers.
Is that confirmed? Gods I hope not. That's such a terrible rule.
2024 Rangers can get Guidance without a feat in exchange for their fighting style, just like Tasha Rangers can. If you think that's a poor ability, then your judgment applies to both of them.
Yes I do think that's a poor ability, and have never suggested the contrary. Fighting Style is necessary to keep Rangers competitive with other martials in terms of combat ability, hence why in 2024 it is not a background feat despite not being a half-feat, and is additionally restricted to only those classes that already have FS as a class feature.
Ranger isn't dead, but it also hasn't been improved. It's in a slightly worse position than it was post-Tasha's mainly because of the nerfing of Gloomstalker, elimination of SS damage bonus, and addition of Topple.
Handle Animal and Insight are also social skills, did you realize that?
Animal Handling isn't a social skill, it's an exploration skill (dogs in D&D aren't Lassie), and usually people play such that animals don't care about people casting spells (otherwise any caster that tries to ride a horse is going to get constantly bucked off). Speak with Animals is a social spell and usually removes the need to roll Animal Handling, since Rangers get Ritual casting now, they can just take that spell instead. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Ranger to take Insight since it's the skill every Wisdom class gets access to, so probably someone else in the party will have it, and it generally doesn't fit the fantasy of being a Ranger.
Expertise in Stealth is a good thing because you have to clear a static 15 to even get the Hidden condition to start with, but you want your check to be as high as possible because that becomes the DC for any searchers.
Is that confirmed? Gods I hope not. That's such a terrible rule.
It's confirmed. The embargo was lifted this morning.
2024 Rangers can get Guidance without a feat in exchange for their fighting style, just like Tasha Rangers can. If you think that's a poor ability, then your judgment applies to both of them.
Yes I do think that's a poor ability, and have never suggested the contrary. Fighting Style is necessary to keep Rangers competitive with other martials in terms of combat ability, hence why in 2024 it is not a background feat despite not being a half-feat, and is additionally restricted to only those classes that already have FS as a class feature.
Ranger isn't dead, but it also hasn't been improved. It's in a slightly worse position than it was post-Tasha's mainly because of the nerfing of Gloomstalker, and elimination of SS damage bonus.
So if you don't think Guidance is worth an origin feat OR a fighting style to pick up, why do you care about it so much? Either it matters to you or it doesn't. Or it's Schrodinger's Guidance and you care about it when you're trying to demonstrate Druids can be good at skill checks before suddenly concluding skill checks don't matter when it's the Ranger's turn.
Expertise still beats Guidance anyway. On average, Guidance is +2.5 to a check, which Expertise beats at level 5 onward.
Expertise in Stealth is a good thing because you have to clear a static 15 to even get the Hidden condition to start with, but you want your check to be as high as possible because that becomes the DC for any searchers.
Is that confirmed? Gods I hope not. That's such a terrible rule.
That part does not bother me. Its the absolutely bizarre you have to be entirely hidden to hide rules that I hate.
Can we not wait 1.5 hrs to finally kill this topic? We already know Ranger spells have been improved from the myriad posts online and in the internet ether. Everywhere I see: Ranger's are Ded". Well, to use Dungeon Dudes words:
"Reports of the Ranger's demise have been grossly exaggerated"
You're missing the point of the argument now. It's stopped being about whether Ranger is good or bad the moment PrenXY starting contradicting themselves. It's now about showing PrenXY that they aren't being rational whatsoever, but instead they have decided 2024 update == good (possibly because of the clever marketing strategy of WotC to use Youtube creators/influencers to promote the changes, and doing "early reveals" of the features that had the biggest support in the surveys) and are changing all their other opinions in order to justify that one position.
It's confirmed. The embargo was lifted this morning.
Gross. A level 1 character should not be able to easily sneak past a frigging Solar because there happens to be a 2 ft tall wall between them. And likewise a character shouldn't need a 15 and a solid wall to sneak past a group of zombies in the middle of eating another person.
Fey-Touched, Shadow-Touched, Metamagic Adept, Telekinetic, Telepathic, Spell Sniper, Keen Mind, Skill Expert, Resilient, Elemental Adept and those are just the ones we know about in core. As more books get printed with additional powerful options (lolCartomancer), the opportunity cost will only grow.
"Well *I* built a bunch of characters and didn't pick anything but War Caster" isn't persuasive.
If you shift the goalposts to "low-level Rangers" then sure, HM is probably the best option, though even then I'd say Ensnaring Strike is at least competitive depending on the opponent.
I didn't ignore any of these. Here, I'll address them again:
1) Multiple Ranger spells are losing concentration, until we know which ones we can't say how a HM focus will truly affect them at various level brackets. But even if absolutely none of them lost concentration, you're still getting free uses of HM which will make dropping it to concentrate on something more powerful fairly frictionless.
2) I've already said that it's a mistake to think of the Ranger as being one key feature when they are a combination, including their non-spell things like Expertise and Roving. I can't tell you how to think though, only point out areas where your disappointment is likely to be inevitable.
3) Druids can get a single Expertise, and they have to burn a valuable feat (see above post for just the core opportunity costs) to do it. The Ranger gets 3 with no feat, and can pick up the 4th if they really want to. If you can't figure out how to be special with 4x Expertise, the problem is not the books.
4) "It could have been something useful" is the most vague and pointless argument I've seen yet. It could just as easily have been something useless, like 2014 Favored Enemy or 2021 Favored Foe - you know, the last two they got.
5) "2024 is equal to or slightly worse than Tasha's" is and continues to be wrong for the reasons I've explained repeatedly. (Now who's ignoring things that were brought up previously? Irony much?)
Fey-Touched - decent for Divine/Primal casters waste of time for everyone else.
Shadow-Touched - sux, you only need one person in the party capable of casting Invis, and Necro spells are awful
Metamagic Adept - can't judge until we see the new metamagics - but a once per day cool thing is pretty lame for a feat.
Telekinetic - mostly useless now, cause everyone and their nana can push creatures better than this feat.
Telepathic - super niche, just use a Stealth check to whisper to your friends.
Spell Sniper - uber niche, attack roll spells all have plenty of range already, and the UA suggests half the casters classes might get bonus range features baked in
Keen Mind - aka, the "I'm too lazy to write notes" feat...
Skill Expert - why do I want this on a caster except to overshadow the Expert classes like Ranger? (weren't you just arguing that clerics & druids would never take this feat?)
Resilient - why would I want this on a caster except to also boost my concentration checks?
Elemental Adept - this has always been garbage.
For someone's who's all "DPR is all that matters to judge the quality of a class" why are you suddenly trying to argue super niche out-of-combat feats are any good?
Fey Touched and Telekinetic are only modestly popular now because they even out an odd casting stat and aren't completely useless. If I have the choice to even out an odd casting stat and get a secondary benefit that's actually good like Warcaster, I'm 100% taking that instead.
These are the only Ranger-specific spells:
Hunter's Mark[c] - we know is not losing concentration requirement
Ensnaring Strike[c] - would only be ok if it lost the concentration requirement, because the major problem with this spell is the enemies you most want to restrain are the brutes, but because it is a STR save those are also the enemies most likely to succeed the save. I seriously doubt it will lose the concentration requirement.
Hail of Thorns[c] - without concentration this would be the Ranger "smite" it's pretty terrible though since they get a save for 1/2 damage and it deals a piddly 1d10 damage. You need a minimum 3 enemies within 5ft of each other for this to be worth casting even if it didn't need concentration.
Cordon of Arrows - already not concentration and almost never used b/c it sux
Conjure Barrage - already not concentration and almost never used b/c it sux, you need a huge field of enemies without any of your allies in the way for it to be worth casting. OK against a zombie horde, not any other time.
Lightning Arrow[c] - good in a game with no magic weapons, but once you've got a magic weapon you're usually better off with Hunters Mark + magic weapon regardless of concentration.
Conjure Volley - already doesn't need concentration, dealing non-magical damage in tier 4 is mostly a waste of time.
Swift Quiver[c] - I doubt this one will lose concentration, but if it does and they fix it so you make the 2 attacks when you first cast it then it would manage to bring all the other rangers up to the level of Beastmaster at the low-low cost of their only 5th level spell.
Your opinion of feats is clearly as bad as all the others. And every feat above is set to be a half-feat in 2024, on top of the buffs you're missing like Keen Mind being tied to the Study action now, so you're once again applying 2014 thinking to the UA forum for some reason I can't fathom. If all you care about is the 2014 game then why are you even posting here?
Oooh the Study action, I can use a Bonus Action to learn that a fire elemental is immune to fire. OMG so useful!
This from the guy whose ranger can't find game outdoors 😛
I never moved the goal post, but for some reason you decided I was comparing HM to all the spells on the rangers list. It would be like me talking about magic missile and you telling me fireball is far superior. Contest is very important.
Anyway let’s talk about how you are still ignoring important points, or rather talking around them.
1. Well we see which spells lost concentration, but again nothing is free. HM is not free it cost a feature.
2. It doesn’t matter if you say Ranger isn’t one key feature when 3 of its features involve HM I have to say HM is their key feature. Beast Master and Hunter also have features that use HM. What you say and what is true are two separate things. Also no class is one key feature, but all the other have something unique. Rangers have nothing. Roving is extra movement. Monks and Barbarians have extra movement. Expertise is shared with three classes.
3. I showed you that Druids don’t need expertise for Wis based skills because simply focusing on their primary stat and taking a cantrip they normally would take places them at or above the normal Ranger with expertise until 9th lvl. Expertise shines at high levels when the proficiency bonus is higher. It’s also good when it’s on a check that is your primary stat. For a Ranger it’s just bringing them up to par unless they are specifically built Ranger that I already discussed. 4X Expertise is great, but the Rogue does it better and since this is a game with a group the Ranger sits in this place of great if you party doesn’t have this other class.
4. You do realize that once you have better combat spells to use your concentration HM is worse than 2014 Favored Enemy. At least that gave you a language and advantage on some checks. Having Free casting of a spell you don’t need is a waste. Favored Foe was bad because they didn’t want it to stack with HM. They were starting fresh so they could have fixed that problem.
5. You haven’t explained how it’s better than Tasha’s. You have only explained how it’s better than 2014 which I agree. Having more Expertise does not make you a better Ranger. It’s making up for losing the advantage on skill checks. Remember with Tasha’s you could take deft explorer and still keep favored enemy which is what I did. I had plenty of languages, advantage on Wis and Int checks for my chosen creatures and expertise in perception. Also I had a cantrip build Ranger that I didn’t get to play that would have used favored foe since it didn’t require a weapon attack. I believe the new HM does not require a weapon attack as well which is an improvement, but that alone does not make 2024 superior to Tasha’s Ranger. I’ll say 2024 is equal to Tasha’s, but Tasha’s Ranger was in better place compared to all classes since all the other classes didn’t get buffs. In 2024 Ranger will sit at or near the bottom of the barrel.
1. It cost a feature by giving you a feature. That's how features work. (Or at least, how they're supposed to; 2014 Ranger seemed to have missed the memo in several spots.)
2. And when you're not using HM, newflash, you're still a Ranger.
3. Guidance uses concentration, is impractical for multiple checks (constantly needing to chant after every check while you're trying to Stealth somewhere is counterproductive, no? How about mid-conversation?) and above all, the Ranger can easily get it too so constantly pointing at Guidance to try and invalidate Expertise is nonsensical.
4. It can't possibly be worse than 2014 Favored Enemy because it actually does something in a fight. And getting advantage is cake now that they've confirmed the tool rule made it to print. Yes there are better spells, but those spells are more costly too; HM is fine.
5. Weapon Mastery, 3x Expertise, swapping spells on a long rest, rituals, double-duration greater invisibility, origin feats, any fighting style, better Feral Senses, and I haven't even touched on the HM improvements - all things I've said repeatedly that you're continuing to ignore. Tasha Ranger gets none of it. Zero.
1. It could be a feature you will use. Remember your argument was you can just drop concentration on HM. So my point is you now have a wasted feature.
2. I’m not sure what the “you’re still a Ranger” argument means. When you’re not using HM you aren’t using 3 features of Ranger, 4 if you are a Hunter or Beastmaster.
3. The new guidance last for an hour, so it’s just once and you can make all the survival or perception checks you need you only need to chant again to change what skill it’s on. I also pointed out that it’s not easy for a Ranger to get it. They have to use a feat or give up their fighting style. You are arguing with yourself. You stated this Druids have to take a feat to get expertise and because of that cost that should not be considered.
4. It does nothing in a fight if you are using your better concentration spells. You are literally arguing with yourself on this. You told me that I should be using spike growth, summon beast, and better concentration spells. You can’t have it both ways. Favored enemy still does something at a point I no longer cast HM.
5. Way to list a bunch of things that aren’t Ranger improvements.
Weapon Mastery was given to most martials and if they literally pulled Tasha’s Ranger forward word for word they would have given it the new feature of the game as well.
More Expertise does not make you a better Ranger. When you don’t have a high stat in a skill advantage can be better than expertise especially at low levels, and that advantage was focused on Ranger things. For people who like to control their character build more expertise is an improvement, but to people looking for any flavor it’s a lateral move at best.
Swapping spells on a long rest is cool and so are rituals, but really are improvements they gave to a lot of classes as a game wide improvement.
The invisibility should last longer since you get it much later. Some will never see it now.
Origin feats are for everyone so don’t use that to show the 2024 Ranger is better than Tasha’s. If you play an 2014 character in the 2024 game they already said you would get origin feats by taking a 2024 background. That’s not even part of the class. It’s a game improvement not a class improvement.
Using any fighting style only matters if you aren’t using a bow, crossbow or two weapon fighting. Not an improvement for most.
Feral Senses is actually worse. If you were an archer shooting at an enemy you couldn’t see beyond 30ft you wouldn’t have disadvantage. With the new version you would. It’s niche that would occur, but the old version is actually just better. The new version is easier to understand and take up less words.
You can’t touch on the HM improvements because they are technically bad for the overall kit. Some of them are wasted features. Let’s pole the community to see which class has the worse capstone feature. What’s funny is that 2014 Foe Slayer might actually be a better capstone. Especially for people who are concentrating on a spell other than HM.
What are you talking about? Why would a Ranger put their Expertise into a CHA skill that would make them mediocre at best at that skill? A Ranger putting their Expertise into Stealth is only matching the Rogue making them completely unspecial. You were arguing that Ranger's unique niche is they are the best at Survival. Why would there be a problem to cast Guidance when foraging for food or tracking some footprints? You also constantly argue that taking a feat is a huge cost, except when it comes to Guidance for Ranger - make up your mind, is taking a feat is huge cost or not? A Ranger has to sacrifice Alert or Toughness or getting access to Shield in order to get Guidance that's a huge cost when 2024 Ranger wants to be in melee but has the weakest defenses of any martial.
Can we not wait 1.5 hrs to finally kill this topic? We already know Ranger spells have been improved from the myriad posts online and in the internet ether. Everywhere I see: Ranger's are Ded". Well, to use Dungeon Dudes words:
"Reports of the Ranger's demise have been grossly exaggerated"
1. A feature you're not using right this second is not "wasted." This is like saying Action Surge is a wasted feature while your fighter isn't in combat.
2. It means that you still have Expertise, Weapon Masteries, all your proficiencies, all your other spells... all the things you get from BEING a Ranger.
3. Guidance lasts for an hour OR until you use the die on a check. So in practice, it'll never lasts the full hour before you need to chant again if you want the buff more than once.
4. Again, your logic here is that when you're concentrating on one spell all your other spells cease to exist. That's nonsense. Spells represent options - if I'm concentrating on Spike Growth and all the enemies take to the sky, I have the option of dropping Spike Growth and swapping to HM. That makes HM a useful feature for me, even if I'm not using it right now. And that is the impasse you and I will seemingly never see eye to eye on.
5. The fact that you don't see any of those things as improvements means I don't have to take your optimization views seriously.
Handle Animal and Insight are also social skills, did you realize that?
Expertise in Stealth is a good thing because you have to clear a static 15 to even get the Hidden condition to start with, but you want your check to be as high as possible because that becomes the DC for any searchers.
Survival is used for more things than foraging and footprints.
2024 Rangers can get Guidance without a feat in exchange for their fighting style, just like Tasha Rangers can. If you think that's a poor ability, then your judgment applies to both of them.
Thank you. Always good to see a voice of reason amidst the hysteria.
Is that confirmed? Gods I hope not. That's such a terrible rule.
Yes I do think that's a poor ability, and have never suggested the contrary. Fighting Style is necessary to keep Rangers competitive with other martials in terms of combat ability, hence why in 2024 it is not a background feat despite not being a half-feat, and is additionally restricted to only those classes that already have FS as a class feature.
Ranger isn't dead, but it also hasn't been improved. It's in a slightly worse position than it was post-Tasha's mainly because of the nerfing of Gloomstalker, elimination of SS damage bonus, and addition of Topple.
Animal Handling isn't a social skill, it's an exploration skill (dogs in D&D aren't Lassie), and usually people play such that animals don't care about people casting spells (otherwise any caster that tries to ride a horse is going to get constantly bucked off). Speak with Animals is a social spell and usually removes the need to roll Animal Handling, since Rangers get Ritual casting now, they can just take that spell instead. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Ranger to take Insight since it's the skill every Wisdom class gets access to, so probably someone else in the party will have it, and it generally doesn't fit the fantasy of being a Ranger.
It's confirmed. The embargo was lifted this morning.
So if you don't think Guidance is worth an origin feat OR a fighting style to pick up, why do you care about it so much? Either it matters to you or it doesn't. Or it's Schrodinger's Guidance and you care about it when you're trying to demonstrate Druids can be good at skill checks before suddenly concluding skill checks don't matter when it's the Ranger's turn.
Expertise still beats Guidance anyway. On average, Guidance is +2.5 to a check, which Expertise beats at level 5 onward.
That part does not bother me. Its the absolutely bizarre you have to be entirely hidden to hide rules that I hate.
You're missing the point of the argument now. It's stopped being about whether Ranger is good or bad the moment PrenXY starting contradicting themselves. It's now about showing PrenXY that they aren't being rational whatsoever, but instead they have decided 2024 update == good (possibly because of the clever marketing strategy of WotC to use Youtube creators/influencers to promote the changes, and doing "early reveals" of the features that had the biggest support in the surveys) and are changing all their other opinions in order to justify that one position.
Gross. A level 1 character should not be able to easily sneak past a frigging Solar because there happens to be a 2 ft tall wall between them. And likewise a character shouldn't need a 15 and a solid wall to sneak past a group of zombies in the middle of eating another person.