I can see a way for the monk to be a more martial Rogue replacement. I mean, it cannot be the front liner, so you cannot use it as your only party martial, because who protects the weaker ones? It requires a special party config (with everyone with its own way to fade). It is not the great damage dealer, as you have to use the Bonus Action many times for defense.
Then I repeat what it needs is to open options, like Fighting Styles and combat feats, add a feat at level 5-6, so can mold the character better, and make it some kind of semi-expertise, like the Ranger getting 3 skill proficiencies instead 2, and grating access to more and better ones. In small parties could help a lot.
Obviously, as is, it does not work as a "more martial rogue". Several reasons, 1. The current rogue has less restrictions on armor. 2. the current rogue has less restrictions on weapons and weapon masteries. 3. the current rogue does more damage without giving up their bonus action for hit and run because sneak attack doesn't use your bonus action it is just built into the attack and cunning action costs nothing but a bonus action.
Honestly, I am not entirely sure what the monk's playstyle is SUPPOSED to be.
Is the intent attack, extra attack spend 1 ki for stunning strike, if it lands flurry, if it fails step or patient defense? That is the best I can come up with that monk can do that others can't, but it doesn't kick in till level 5 and only works for like 2 rounds of combat.
Notice that the Rogue depends completely of having a friendly foe adjacent to the target, which the monk don't. So the monk can be a martial semi-rogue by its own, attacking its own targets (like enemy back line casters) not conditioned, while having mobility.
I am not a fan of how the Rogue is made, taking full Sneak Attack simply spamming ranged attacks to a target because is adjacent to a friendly one, from my POV is absurd. I think on the Rogue more like hiding and surprise attacks. But that is what we have.
You also get sneak attack if you have advantage, which you can give yourself by hiding. And the Thief rogue has an ability at level 9 (end tier 2 starting t 3) to keep themselves hidden as long as they END their turn behind cover. The swashbuckler rogue can get sneak attack by just attacking someone who doesn't have an ally next to them. Assassins grant themselves advantage on their first turn basically, and Arcane tricksters have spells to grant themselves advantage. Basically every rogue has more than one option for getting sneak attack, between hiding, steady aim, their subclass features. Sometimes they will need their bonus action so won't be able to dash/disengage other times they won't and will dash/disengage and still get their full damage.
Thankfully, we could say most monks are the same way. Open hand gets the chance to be able to disengage if the opponent fails their con save (unlikely) or they can give disadvantage on that attack if they fail their dex save or they can just walk normal after pushing them away after failing their str save. Open hand is really going to want to try and get a good gauge of which is the enemies bad save. Elementalist can use the mobility thanks to reach, and Shadow has teleport stuff which at 11 (T3) is LESS costly because you still get your unarmed strike AND the darkness technique means they can't AoO if they can't see you since AoO requires sight. Mercy is the least mobile of the bunch here. So fair enough, still going to be doing less damage than the rogue under most conditions, but mobility is about equal. Fair enough.
At level 20 an Arcane Trickster Rogue can use the Shadow Blade spell, cast with a third level slot (for 3d8 damage) and use it to cast the Booming Blade cantrip (3d8 at level 17), and potentially roll 10d6 for Sneak Attack. If they took the Magic Initiate (Divine) feat for the Wrathful Smite spell that can be another 4d6 Necrotic damage with a fourth level spell slot.
If they are in dim light or darkness they're automatically getting advantage from the Shadow Blade.
That's a potential 3d8+5 +3d8 + 10d6 + 4d6 damage in one turn, for 81 average damage.
Just using a rapier with booming blade gives:
1d8+5 +3d8 +10d6 for a potential average of 58, which is still fairly decent, as long as they're willing to stand still to use Steady Aim. Probability to hit is about 0.88 with advantage.
A Paladin with a greatsword and Great Weapon Mastery, and Radiant Strikes, using a fifth level spell slot to cast Divine Smite gets
2(2d6+5 +d8) +6 +6d8 for 66 average damage.
Also, elemental resistance in D&D appears far more common than elemental vulnerability. For example 87 species have resistance to fire, 68 are immune to it, and 13 are vulnerable to it.
Being able to change the element of your fists is basically valueless when you already have the option of force damage, which has 1 immunity and 0 resistance.
Since people seem to agree that the Open Palm's 17th level feature is the highest damage a Monk can do in one round, that's 10d12 + 20 damage at level 20, for an average of 85 damage if they fail their save, and 42 if they pass it.
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Monks have bad damage, but their argument was sound depending on their final stance. Astral Self adds dpr at 11th and 17th. Breath of Dragon scales in higher tiers so it needed to mentioned. Tipsy sway could have been left off. Elemental Attunement and Elemental Burst could have been left off. One with blade could have been left off. Sharpen the blade is a tier 3 increase to dpr. Unerring Accuracy at 17th is a dpr improvement which they did not mention. Long Death is great level 17 dpr boost. Mercy Hands of harm scale in tier 3 and 4. Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost. If their argument is that many monk subclasses add dpr in 3rd and 4th tier they aren’t wrong. If they believe it’s enough to catch up to fighter, Paladin or Rogue they are wrong. But should anything be compared to the fighters dpr. DPR is literally the one thing it has and honestly burst damage is far more important in a fight than dpr. I know they are shutting down many of the Nova plays, but that might be better for the game overall.
And none of those except mercy are in the PHB, and this is about the One DnD PHB playtest. I covered every single one of the PHB Subclasses in this playtest for T3... NONE of them except Mercy get anything to add to damage in T3 at all, so YES they are wrong about subclasses adding DPR in T3 with the exception of one out of 4 subclasses. If the only option to play monk is not in the PHB than the new PHB subclasses are failing. So either the monk is failing or the subclasses are.
In terms of T4: Open Hand Quivering Palm: you give up your action the turn you do this so that means you miss out on 4 attacks, you are trading 4d12+20*to hit for 10d12+17*save chance/half on save assuming a 50% chance to save vs a 65% chance to hit, damage would be from 31.2 to 61.5 average damage . So yes, actually I would call this a big damage boost honestly... in T4, not T3, T3 is over.
Shadow Cloak of Shadows You have to use your bonus action to activate it so no flurry the turn you first use it, and it basically just gives advantage on everything, which you likely already had under most circumstances since level 3, but hey at least this way you don't mess up your party with it. but no, this one doesn't really add to damage in t4, and combining with the fact that it doesn't add damage in t3 and no Shadow does not add to damage in t3 or t4. Adds situational abilities yes, damage not really.
Elements Elemental Epitome It adds damage for AOE, which invalidates the already lackluster level 6 features aoe damage, and adds 6.5 DPR to single targets.
Mercy Hand of Ultimate Mercy Add 0 DPR BUT does bring someone back from the dead, and a dead party member contributes 0 dpr, while a live one is at least doing 20 or 30....Caster does this.... with a higher gold cost but an equivalent resource cost at this level.
People have DONE the work INCLUDING subclasses, no one is asking monk to do more DPR than all other classes. The monk has less survival in melee and has to be in melee to do their best damage which is less than all other melee classes even if they pump EVERYTHING into that DPR and the other classes don't in T3. If the monk wants to hit and run in one dnd it has to use its ki and lose out on its bonus action to dash and disengage halving its damage. (Note the mobile feat doesn't exist in one DnD it was replaced with the speedster feat which DOESN'T allow the free disengage so no you can't just take a feat for that). And this is all because almost everything the monk does is tied to their bonus action, damage and defense making the monk FEEL clunky to play in ACTUAL play of the game.
First we don’t know if Mercy will be in the PHB or if it was used to test backwards compatibility. Note that anyone who doesn’t own Tasha’s can’t playtest Mercy. Second you are moving goalpost and I don’t have time for that. You literally jumped on here complaining that someone brought up tier 1-2 features on a topic about tier 3 and 4, but now are refusing to accept that most monk sub classes do have dpr boost in tiers 3 and 4. Like I said some of the early tier features scale up in later tiers. Also we will not be restricted to PHB subclasses in 5eR. They gave up the level alignment just to keep it backwards compatible. So disregarding Kensei who gets dpr improvements at 11 and 17th just because it doesn’t fit your narrative won’t work here. At least you admit hand has a substantial dpr increase, but it’s hard to deny because of how large it is. Long Death also has a big T4 increase. Final note mercy does have a dpr increase in T4 because hand of harm scales to a d12. It’s crap dpr increase, but it’s still dpr increase which is the only point that was arguing.
No I didn't move the goal posts if you read the post I had, I specifically named each of the subclasses that appeared in this playtest, it was clearly out in the open, choosing to ignore that doesn't mean I moved anything, it just means you chose to ignore it. And, according to the video the subclasses they are testing here are the ones that will appear in the PHB. So, as far as WoTC have announced the subclasses that appear here are the ones intended for the PHB, Mercy will be in the PHB until they announce differently. Even the document itself suggests as such "This playtest document is part of a series of Unearthed Arcana articles that present material designed for the 2024 version of the Player’s Handbook" And yes 1 point of damage increase for mercy from their previous feature, that doesn't change anything else I said. It doesn't change the fact that ADDING the Subclasses does more harm to the argument that Monks are ok than good because even WITH the subclasses taken into account they aren't scaling as well as base classes for other classes. Except Quivering Palm on open hand, which got no boost in T3, but this is great in T4.
But you were replying to someone. You attempted to move the goalpost set by the original post and the person you replied to. They set the terms for this topic and you decided to shrink the size of scope to prove our point. That is goal post moving. The original topic and the post you replied to had a much broader scope. Also I don’t remember them explicitly stating these subclasses are appearing in the book. I’ll watch the video again, I could be wrong. Also that written statement could still mean you are testing the 2024 PHB base monks backwards compatibility, especially since Mercy does not appear in the document. You have to own a separate book to playtest it.
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Monks have bad damage, but their argument was sound depending on their final stance. Astral Self adds dpr at 11th and 17th. Breath of Dragon scales in higher tiers so it needed to mentioned. Tipsy sway could have been left off. Elemental Attunement and Elemental Burst could have been left off. One with blade could have been left off. Sharpen the blade is a tier 3 increase to dpr. Unerring Accuracy at 17th is a dpr improvement which they did not mention. Long Death is great level 17 dpr boost. Mercy Hands of harm scale in tier 3 and 4. Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost. If their argument is that many monk subclasses add dpr in 3rd and 4th tier they aren’t wrong. If they believe it’s enough to catch up to fighter, Paladin or Rogue they are wrong. But should anything be compared to the fighters dpr. DPR is literally the one thing it has and honestly burst damage is far more important in a fight than dpr. I know they are shutting down many of the Nova plays, but that might be better for the game overall.
And none of those except mercy are in the PHB, and this is about the One DnD PHB playtest. I covered every single one of the PHB Subclasses in this playtest for T3... NONE of them except Mercy get anything to add to damage in T3 at all, so YES they are wrong about subclasses adding DPR in T3 with the exception of one out of 4 subclasses. If the only option to play monk is not in the PHB than the new PHB subclasses are failing. So either the monk is failing or the subclasses are.
In terms of T4: Open Hand Quivering Palm: you give up your action the turn you do this so that means you miss out on 4 attacks, you are trading 4d12+20*to hit for 10d12+17*save chance/half on save assuming a 50% chance to save vs a 65% chance to hit, damage would be from 31.2 to 61.5 average damage . So yes, actually I would call this a big damage boost honestly... in T4, not T3, T3 is over.
Shadow Cloak of Shadows You have to use your bonus action to activate it so no flurry the turn you first use it, and it basically just gives advantage on everything, which you likely already had under most circumstances since level 3, but hey at least this way you don't mess up your party with it. but no, this one doesn't really add to damage in t4, and combining with the fact that it doesn't add damage in t3 and no Shadow does not add to damage in t3 or t4. Adds situational abilities yes, damage not really.
Elements Elemental Epitome It adds damage for AOE, which invalidates the already lackluster level 6 features aoe damage, and adds 6.5 DPR to single targets.
Mercy Hand of Ultimate Mercy Add 0 DPR BUT does bring someone back from the dead, and a dead party member contributes 0 dpr, while a live one is at least doing 20 or 30....Caster does this.... with a higher gold cost but an equivalent resource cost at this level.
People have DONE the work INCLUDING subclasses, no one is asking monk to do more DPR than all other classes. The monk has less survival in melee and has to be in melee to do their best damage which is less than all other melee classes even if they pump EVERYTHING into that DPR and the other classes don't in T3. If the monk wants to hit and run in one dnd it has to use its ki and lose out on its bonus action to dash and disengage halving its damage. (Note the mobile feat doesn't exist in one DnD it was replaced with the speedster feat which DOESN'T allow the free disengage so no you can't just take a feat for that). And this is all because almost everything the monk does is tied to their bonus action, damage and defense making the monk FEEL clunky to play in ACTUAL play of the game.
First we don’t know if Mercy will be in the PHB or if it was used to test backwards compatibility. Note that anyone who doesn’t own Tasha’s can’t playtest Mercy. Second you are moving goalpost and I don’t have time for that. You literally jumped on here complaining that someone brought up tier 1-2 features on a topic about tier 3 and 4, but now are refusing to accept that most monk sub classes do have dpr boost in tiers 3 and 4. Like I said some of the early tier features scale up in later tiers. Also we will not be restricted to PHB subclasses in 5eR. They gave up the level alignment just to keep it backwards compatible. So disregarding Kensei who gets dpr improvements at 11 and 17th just because it doesn’t fit your narrative won’t work here. At least you admit hand has a substantial dpr increase, but it’s hard to deny because of how large it is. Long Death also has a big T4 increase. Final note mercy does have a dpr increase in T4 because hand of harm scales to a d12. It’s crap dpr increase, but it’s still dpr increase which is the only point that was arguing.
No I didn't move the goal posts if you read the post I had, I specifically named each of the subclasses that appeared in this playtest, it was clearly out in the open, choosing to ignore that doesn't mean I moved anything, it just means you chose to ignore it. And, according to the video the subclasses they are testing here are the ones that will appear in the PHB. So, as far as WoTC have announced the subclasses that appear here are the ones intended for the PHB, Mercy will be in the PHB until they announce differently. Even the document itself suggests as such "This playtest document is part of a series of Unearthed Arcana articles that present material designed for the 2024 version of the Player’s Handbook" And yes 1 point of damage increase for mercy from their previous feature, that doesn't change anything else I said. It doesn't change the fact that ADDING the Subclasses does more harm to the argument that Monks are ok than good because even WITH the subclasses taken into account they aren't scaling as well as base classes for other classes. Except Quivering Palm on open hand, which got no boost in T3, but this is great in T4.
But you were replying to someone. You attempted to move the goalpost set by the original post and the person you replied to. They set the terms for this topic and you decided to shrink the size of scope to prove our point. That is goal post moving. The original topic and the post you replied to had a much broader scope. Also I don’t remember them explicitly stating these subclasses are appearing in the book. I’ll watch the video again, I could be wrong. Also that written statement could still mean you are testing the 2024 PHB base monks backwards compatibility, especially since Mercy does not appear in the document. You have to own a separate book to playtest it.
The original post was about T3 and T4 play and was on the Unearthed Arcana forums which is currently specifically about the current 2024 PHB playtest. They tried to BROADEN the topic. Which is what my post, that YOU replied to, specifically called them out for doing by asking why we were talking about T1 and T2 abilities that had nothing to do with T3 play and scaling and tried to bring it back on topic and back to the topic of the 2024 PHB Martial T3 and T4 progression.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks this is a Monk thread. Sure, they have a problem, but so do barbarians and (non-beastmaster) rangers -- the only difference is that those classes are strong enough at low tier that the high level problems aren't as visible (the beastmaster level 11 feature is strong enough to carry them through tier 3 and 4 all by itself, but that doesn't apply to other rangers).
At level 20 an Arcane Trickster Rogue can use the Shadow Blade spell, cast with a third level slot (for 3d8 damage) and use it to cast the Booming Blade cantrip (3d8 at level 17), and potentially roll 10d6 for Sneak Attack. If they took the Magic Initiate (Divine) feat for the Wrathful Smite spell that can be another 4d6 Necrotic damage with a fourth level spell slot.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
At level 20 an Arcane Trickster Rogue can use the Shadow Blade spell, cast with a third level slot (for 3d8 damage) and use it to cast the Booming Blade cantrip (3d8 at level 17), and potentially roll 10d6 for Sneak Attack. If they took the Magic Initiate (Divine) feat for the Wrathful Smite spell that can be another 4d6 Necrotic damage with a fourth level spell slot.
Shadow blade is an illusion on the Wizard spell list, which means Arcane Trickster can use it. Booming Blade is also on the wizard spell list which means the Arcane Trickster can pick it up at level 3.
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I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Miley Cyrus music should be outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
At level 20 an Arcane Trickster Rogue can use the Shadow Blade spell, cast with a third level slot (for 3d8 damage) and use it to cast the Booming Blade cantrip (3d8 at level 17), and potentially roll 10d6 for Sneak Attack. If they took the Magic Initiate (Divine) feat for the Wrathful Smite spell that can be another 4d6 Necrotic damage with a fourth level spell slot.
Shadow blade is an illusion on the Wizard spell list, which means Arcane Trickster can use it. Booming Blade is also on the wizard spell list which means the Arcane Trickster can pick it up at level 3.
On top of no longer being used by Arcane Trickster, the Wizard spell list no longer exists.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Which Jeremy has already acknowledged was not an intended interpretation of the rules.
Not sure what you mean, the Blade cantrips are revised on Xanathar or Tasha (don’t remember) adding that requisite so can only be used with real weapons.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks this is a Monk thread. Sure, they have a problem, but so do barbarians and (non-beastmaster) rangers -- the only difference is that those classes are strong enough at low tier that the high level problems aren't as visible (the beastmaster level 11 feature is strong enough to carry them through tier 3 and 4 all by itself, but that doesn't apply to other rangers).
Barbarians definitely. Rangers less so because of the primal spell list. Which people already argued. Once you account for 3rd level and later 4th and 5th level spell/s ranger does well.
I am convinced that WotC can do much better than that. The monk class is very disappointing, even more so than in 5e.
1) Martia Arts pushes the monk toward unarmed combat, so why Weapon Mastery and not Unarmed Mastery? This could solve the problems of overuse of the bonus action with the NICK technique, and a technique could be created to use acrobatics instead of athletics for grab. It would be interesting to have more unarmed techniques accessible, but with the limitation of not being able to repeat the same technique on the same creature in the same turn. By leveling up, the monk could accumulate a number of unarmed techniques. 2) There is still no solution to the monk's MAD problem. 3) FoB is an attack that comes too early by the standards of other classes, I would propose an Iron Strike, a technique that boosts damage once per turn, and have an additional bonus unarmed strike that does not need resources at the 11th level. 4) The 11th level monk's subclass features are always defensive, when there should be an enhancement in the DPR. At this point it is better to move the subclass feature to 10th level and put a more concrete enhancement to the monk's base class. 5) Too many defensive features and half function as a protective talisman, If you know that some attacks do not work against the monk why use them. (Deflect Missiles, Deflect Energy). Some come too late and not in line with its strategic use. 6) Too many features that restore discipline points when all it takes is to be able to limit their use, and I see that it has been done quite well. 7) Instead of always creating new features, there should be an evolution of low-level features, such as "Bonus Unarmed Strike, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind,"...
If someone is interested in a martial artist who uses both weapons and unarmed attacks should multiclass, or upgrade the Kensei subclass that allows the use of some weapons as if they were his unarmed attacks. I am convinced that the monk should be a warrior of unarmed techniques.
Martial Arts: Very concetrated in unarmed confrontation, which makes it different from the fighter.
Unarmored Defense: I recommend being able to choose between WIS and CON for upgrading to AC. This would make it less MAD and more open to multiclassing.
Weapon Mastery: If the class is already geared toward unarmed combat, why not create an Unarmed Mastery specifically for the monk?
Martial Discipline: FoB is an attack that comes too early by the standards of other classes, I would propose an Iron Strike, that is an attack enhanced by a martial art die, and if you have advantage it can be sacrificed instead of spending 1 discipline point. To support Patient Defense and Wind Step, it is important that there is a NICK option in Unarmed Mastery techniques.
Unarmored Movement: In my opinion, this feature should integrate Dash and Disengage as bonus actions.
Deflect Missiles: A feature that should be part of Unarmed Mastery.
Slow Fall: To be useful, it would be interesting to expand the monk's aerial movement. Step of the Wind could also be given movement in the air.
Extra Attack: Nothing to complain about.
Stunning Strike: It should be part of the Unarmed Mastery techniques.
Empowered Strikes: Instead of messing with diferentiating unarmed combat with armed combat, why not be able to absorb simple weapons into one's body in tattoo form and use their power for unarmed attacks? This would equalize the classes regarding the use of magical weapons.
Evasion: Nothing to complain about.
Heightened Metabolism: By decreasing the consumption of discipline points through the features that use it is sufficed, this feature would turn out to be unnecessary.
Acrobatic Movement: It would be interesting if one could use the bonus action to avoid falling if at the end of the turn one is still in a vertical surface or on a liquid surface, somewhat like Spider Climb, but by losing a bonus action.
Self-Restoration: It is better to have advantage over these conditions than to have to use a bonus action.
Deflect Energy: The monk already has too many defensive features. Better to find a way to exploit Patient Defense better than to create unnecessary features.
Disciplined Survivor: Nothing to complain about. Maybe I would take it to 13th level and the constitution saving throw I would put in the Self-Restoration feature.
Perfect Discipline: There is the same mistake here as in the 5e version, because this feature should only work if you have no more discipline points, just change the sentence to "Every time you roll for initiative, you have at least 4 ki points." It doesn't make sense that the monk if left with 3 discipline points should have to scatter energy after one fight only to have 4 at the beginning of the next fight.
Superior Defense: Nice, but completely useless, especially at the 18th level. Especially not in line with the strategic use of the monk.
Defy Death: Nice, but completely useless. It would be interesting be able to choose a feature from another monk subclass.
I find that there is a marked improvement in ONE DND, but the classes are not balanced. I thought there was an intention to improve this aspect, but instead it seems to have gotten worse. The already excellent fighter is even stronger because of the Weapon Mastery techniques. The mage is also even more adaptable. The rogue can now do more techniques than the monk without even spending resources. Honestly, I feel mocked. The monk class is really disappointing, I pray you can find a solution.
I recommend going to this link, and write your opinion about the monk. Because frankly they did the bullshit with this monk class redesign in ONE DND.
The original post was about T3 and T4 play and was on the Unearthed Arcana forums which is currently specifically about the current 2024 PHB playtest. They tried to BROADEN the topic. Which is what my post, that YOU replied to, specifically called them out for doing by asking why we were talking about T1 and T2 abilities that had nothing to do with T3 play and scaling and tried to bring it back on topic and back to the topic of the 2024 PHB Martial T3 and T4 progression.
Like I already pointed out some of the tier 1 or 2 features they mentioned scale into tier 3 and 4 which means they are within the scope of the original conversation. Since the game has been announced as backwards compatible any subclass that is not getting a rework is still eligible to be discussed. Also I’m realizing even under you constrained view which neither the original poster or the person you replied to applied of only specifically looking at subclasses named in the UA All but one have dpr scaling in tier 3 and 4. It’s not great but the only one that has nothing is Shadow. Hand has nothing other in T3, but gets a best out of all of them in T4. Elements 6th feature scale in T3 and T4 and they gain a new feature in T4. Mercy T1 feature scales in T3 and T4. The only statement that was made is that the subclasses added to dpr. They never claimed it was great or sufficient. If your reply would have been “You are correct but it’s insufficient.” We wouldn’t still be debating. In my first reply to you I said monk dpr is trash, but their claim is correct.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks this is a Monk thread. Sure, they have a problem, but so do barbarians and (non-beastmaster) rangers -- the only difference is that those classes are strong enough at low tier that the high level problems aren't as visible (the beastmaster level 11 feature is strong enough to carry them through tier 3 and 4 all by itself, but that doesn't apply to other rangers).
Ranger is fine because those numbers didn’t account for spells other than Hunters Mark. Barbarian is fine because they are tank AF. Maybe they need a boost, but at the table I have never seen it. This is probably because of 5e GWM which has been changed for 5eR. So maybe. The monk became the focus because they aren’t Tank AF, so people expect a some DPR, especially because at low level they look like they might be better dpr than a fighter base for base.
Like I already pointed out some of the tier 1 or 2 features they mentioned scale into tier 3 and 4 which means they are within the scope of the original conversation.
Typically because the martial arts die increases... which is worth 1-2 dpr even on the classes where it applies. Some of the examples are actions (rather than attack modifiers) and thus replace rather than augmenting damage -- and are generally quite low damage.
In any case, the point is not that monk subclasses don't have things that boost dpr. The point is that they don't have any more stuff along those lines than subclasses of other classes, and thus we can mostly ignore subclasses. To be decently competitive, you need to get total dpr bonus (class and subclass) up to 25-ish.
That's no problem for fighter, paladin, or rogue, they're almost there already.
For barbarian, Path of the Beast (infectious fury plus call the hunt) might do it, depending on party composition. No other barbarian comes close.
For monk, there are zero subclasses that provide the 22 dpr they need. Most work out to less than half that.
For ranger, beast master (bestial fury) is worth 20+ dpr if you're actually using hunter's mark. No other ranger comes close.
Like I already pointed out some of the tier 1 or 2 features they mentioned scale into tier 3 and 4 which means they are within the scope of the original conversation.
Typically because the martial arts die increases... which is worth 1-2 dpr even on the classes where it applies. Some of the examples are actions (rather than attack modifiers) and thus replace rather than augmenting damage -- and are generally quite low damage.
In any case, the point is not that monk subclasses don't have things that boost dpr. The point is that they don't have any more stuff along those lines than subclasses of other classes, and thus we can mostly ignore subclasses. To be decently competitive, you need to get total dpr bonus (class and subclass) up to 25-ish.
That's no problem for fighter, paladin, or rogue, they're almost there already.
For barbarian, Path of the Beast (infectious fury plus call the hunt) might do it, depending on party composition. No other barbarian comes close.
For monk, there are zero subclasses that provide the 22 dpr they need. Most work out to less than half that.
For ranger, beast master (bestial fury) is worth 20+ dpr if you're actually using hunter's mark. No other ranger comes close.
Why did you cut my post quote down to one sentence as if that was all I said. I literally have no reply to this since the rest of my post already answered this. Awkward
The original post was about T3 and T4 play and was on the Unearthed Arcana forums which is currently specifically about the current 2024 PHB playtest. They tried to BROADEN the topic. Which is what my post, that YOU replied to, specifically called them out for doing by asking why we were talking about T1 and T2 abilities that had nothing to do with T3 play and scaling and tried to bring it back on topic and back to the topic of the 2024 PHB Martial T3 and T4 progression.
Like I already pointed out some of the tier 1 or 2 features they mentioned scale into tier 3 and 4 which means they are within the scope of the original conversation. Since the game has been announced as backwards compatible any subclass that is not getting a rework is still eligible to be discussed. Also I’m realizing even under you constrained view which neither the original poster or the person you replied to applied of only specifically looking at subclasses named in the UA All but one have dpr scaling in tier 3 and 4. It’s not great but the only one that has nothing is Shadow. Hand has nothing other in T3, but gets a best out of all of them in T4. Elements 6th feature scale in T3 and T4 and they gain a new feature in T4. Mercy T1 feature scales in T3 and T4. The only statement that was made is that the subclasses added to dpr. They never claimed it was great or sufficient. If your reply would have been “You are correct but it’s insufficient.” We wouldn’t still be debating. In my first reply to you I said monk dpr is trash, but their claim is correct.
The original poster left out subclasses all together. The post I replied to wanted to add subclasses for monks but ignore all subclasses from others. The original poster even said WHY they left out subclasses because everyone gets subclasses and many of them have damage features. The whole point I made at the END of my argument was that the argument that they were making about subclasses did more to HARM their argument that monks were fine than it did to HELP because even WITH the subclasses added in the damage boosts were still less than the subclassless fighters, rogues and Paladins who are in a good spot. Right now your argument is pure pedantic with no actual point and wants to gloss over the POINT I made, which wasn't that "no subclasses added damage in T3" but that those features were few and far between in T3 and those that do, don't support the premise the person I was replying to was working under that Monks were fine in T3.
Second NO elementals 6th level feature DOESN'T count. It is an AOE feature not single target and the only time it beats out the single target in Ki efficiency and action economy (2 extra unarmed strikes on 2 different turns + 1 extra weapon attack from extra attack) requires 4 or 5 people within its area. It doesn't matter that the martial arts die gets bigger. And for MERCY, not only did I account for that in my reply I gave the FULL benefit of the entire martial arts die not just the 1 damage bump from the martial arts die going up, because it became free at level 11. So not only did I account for that in that post that you said you read and wouldn't be continuing to talk about if I gave that concession THAT I GAVE. I gave it a better bonus than it would actually have. If you agree that even WITH the subclasses in T3 that monk is still behind what fighter, rogue and paladin get in their base class, than you are arguing for nothing and wasting your time, and mine.
Being more durable than the rest of the party is only particularly useful if either (a) you have high damage to go along with it, (b) you have a way to force enemies to attack you, or (c) you have healing (being the last one standing when you have mass healing word or the like is a big deal). Otherwise all it means is that in a losing fight you're the last one to die, and in any other fight your durability didn't matter.
You also get sneak attack if you have advantage, which you can give yourself by hiding. And the Thief rogue has an ability at level 9 (end tier 2 starting t 3) to keep themselves hidden as long as they END their turn behind cover. The swashbuckler rogue can get sneak attack by just attacking someone who doesn't have an ally next to them. Assassins grant themselves advantage on their first turn basically, and Arcane tricksters have spells to grant themselves advantage. Basically every rogue has more than one option for getting sneak attack, between hiding, steady aim, their subclass features. Sometimes they will need their bonus action so won't be able to dash/disengage other times they won't and will dash/disengage and still get their full damage.
Thankfully, we could say most monks are the same way. Open hand gets the chance to be able to disengage if the opponent fails their con save (unlikely) or they can give disadvantage on that attack if they fail their dex save or they can just walk normal after pushing them away after failing their str save. Open hand is really going to want to try and get a good gauge of which is the enemies bad save. Elementalist can use the mobility thanks to reach, and Shadow has teleport stuff which at 11 (T3) is LESS costly because you still get your unarmed strike AND the darkness technique means they can't AoO if they can't see you since AoO requires sight. Mercy is the least mobile of the bunch here. So fair enough, still going to be doing less damage than the rogue under most conditions, but mobility is about equal. Fair enough.
At level 20 an Arcane Trickster Rogue can use the Shadow Blade spell, cast with a third level slot (for 3d8 damage) and use it to cast the Booming Blade cantrip (3d8 at level 17), and potentially roll 10d6 for Sneak Attack. If they took the Magic Initiate (Divine) feat for the Wrathful Smite spell that can be another 4d6 Necrotic damage with a fourth level spell slot.
If they are in dim light or darkness they're automatically getting advantage from the Shadow Blade.
That's a potential 3d8+5 +3d8 + 10d6 + 4d6 damage in one turn, for 81 average damage.
Just using a rapier with booming blade gives:
1d8+5 +3d8 +10d6 for a potential average of 58, which is still fairly decent, as long as they're willing to stand still to use Steady Aim. Probability to hit is about 0.88 with advantage.
A Paladin with a greatsword and Great Weapon Mastery, and Radiant Strikes, using a fifth level spell slot to cast Divine Smite gets
2(2d6+5 +d8) +6 +6d8 for 66 average damage.
Also, elemental resistance in D&D appears far more common than elemental vulnerability. For example 87 species have resistance to fire, 68 are immune to it, and 13 are vulnerable to it.
Being able to change the element of your fists is basically valueless when you already have the option of force damage, which has 1 immunity and 0 resistance.
Since people seem to agree that the Open Palm's 17th level feature is the highest damage a Monk can do in one round, that's 10d12 + 20 damage at level 20, for an average of 85 damage if they fail their save, and 42 if they pass it.
With the revision is not possible to use Shadow Blade + Blade cantrips, as they require a weapon that have a monetary cost.
Which Jeremy has already acknowledged was not an intended interpretation of the rules.
But you were replying to someone. You attempted to move the goalpost set by the original post and the person you replied to. They set the terms for this topic and you decided to shrink the size of scope to prove our point. That is goal post moving. The original topic and the post you replied to had a much broader scope. Also I don’t remember them explicitly stating these subclasses are appearing in the book. I’ll watch the video again, I could be wrong. Also that written statement could still mean you are testing the 2024 PHB base monks backwards compatibility, especially since Mercy does not appear in the document. You have to own a separate book to playtest it.
The original post was about T3 and T4 play and was on the Unearthed Arcana forums which is currently specifically about the current 2024 PHB playtest. They tried to BROADEN the topic. Which is what my post, that YOU replied to, specifically called them out for doing by asking why we were talking about T1 and T2 abilities that had nothing to do with T3 play and scaling and tried to bring it back on topic and back to the topic of the 2024 PHB Martial T3 and T4 progression.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks this is a Monk thread. Sure, they have a problem, but so do barbarians and (non-beastmaster) rangers -- the only difference is that those classes are strong enough at low tier that the high level problems aren't as visible (the beastmaster level 11 feature is strong enough to carry them through tier 3 and 4 all by itself, but that doesn't apply to other rangers).
Neither shadow blade nor booming blade are on the Arcane Spell List. So, no.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Shadow blade is an illusion on the Wizard spell list, which means Arcane Trickster can use it. Booming Blade is also on the wizard spell list which means the Arcane Trickster can pick it up at level 3.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Miley Cyrus music should be outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
On top of no longer being used by Arcane Trickster, the Wizard spell list no longer exists.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Not sure what you mean, the Blade cantrips are revised on Xanathar or Tasha (don’t remember) adding that requisite so can only be used with real weapons.
Barbarians definitely. Rangers less so because of the primal spell list. Which people already argued. Once you account for 3rd level and later 4th and 5th level spell/s ranger does well.
I am convinced that WotC can do much better than that. The monk class is very disappointing, even more so than in 5e.
1) Martia Arts pushes the monk toward unarmed combat, so why Weapon Mastery and not Unarmed Mastery? This could solve the problems of overuse of the bonus action with the NICK technique, and a technique could be created to use acrobatics instead of athletics for grab. It would be interesting to have more unarmed techniques accessible, but with the limitation of not being able to repeat the same technique on the same creature in the same turn. By leveling up, the monk could accumulate a number of unarmed techniques.
2) There is still no solution to the monk's MAD problem.
3) FoB is an attack that comes too early by the standards of other classes, I would propose an Iron Strike, a technique that boosts damage once per turn, and have an additional bonus unarmed strike that does not need resources at the 11th level.
4) The 11th level monk's subclass features are always defensive, when there should be an enhancement in the DPR. At this point it is better to move the subclass feature to 10th level and put a more concrete enhancement to the monk's base class.
5) Too many defensive features and half function as a protective talisman, If you know that some attacks do not work against the monk why use them. (Deflect Missiles, Deflect Energy). Some come too late and not in line with its strategic use.
6) Too many features that restore discipline points when all it takes is to be able to limit their use, and I see that it has been done quite well.
7) Instead of always creating new features, there should be an evolution of low-level features, such as "Bonus Unarmed Strike, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind,"...
If someone is interested in a martial artist who uses both weapons and unarmed attacks should multiclass, or upgrade the Kensei subclass that allows the use of some weapons as if they were his unarmed attacks. I am convinced that the monk should be a warrior of unarmed techniques.
Martial Arts: Very concetrated in unarmed confrontation, which makes it different from the fighter.
Unarmored Defense: I recommend being able to choose between WIS and CON for upgrading to AC. This would make it less MAD and more open to multiclassing.
Weapon Mastery: If the class is already geared toward unarmed combat, why not create an Unarmed Mastery specifically for the monk?
Martial Discipline: FoB is an attack that comes too early by the standards of other classes, I would propose an Iron Strike, that is an attack enhanced by a martial art die, and if you have advantage it can be sacrificed instead of spending 1 discipline point. To support Patient Defense and Wind Step, it is important that there is a NICK option in Unarmed Mastery techniques.
Unarmored Movement: In my opinion, this feature should integrate Dash and Disengage as bonus actions.
Deflect Missiles: A feature that should be part of Unarmed Mastery.
Slow Fall: To be useful, it would be interesting to expand the monk's aerial movement. Step of the Wind could also be given movement in the air.
Extra Attack: Nothing to complain about.
Stunning Strike: It should be part of the Unarmed Mastery techniques.
Empowered Strikes: Instead of messing with diferentiating unarmed combat with armed combat, why not be able to absorb simple weapons into one's body in tattoo form and use their power for unarmed attacks? This would equalize the classes regarding the use of magical weapons.
Evasion: Nothing to complain about.
Heightened Metabolism: By decreasing the consumption of discipline points through the features that use it is sufficed, this feature would turn out to be unnecessary.
Acrobatic Movement: It would be interesting if one could use the bonus action to avoid falling if at the end of the turn one is still in a vertical surface or on a liquid surface, somewhat like Spider Climb, but by losing a bonus action.
Self-Restoration: It is better to have advantage over these conditions than to have to use a bonus action.
Deflect Energy: The monk already has too many defensive features. Better to find a way to exploit Patient Defense better than to create unnecessary features.
Disciplined Survivor: Nothing to complain about. Maybe I would take it to 13th level and the constitution saving throw I would put in the Self-Restoration feature.
Perfect Discipline: There is the same mistake here as in the 5e version, because this feature should only work if you have no more discipline points, just change the sentence to "Every time you roll for initiative, you have at least 4 ki points." It doesn't make sense that the monk if left with 3 discipline points should have to scatter energy after one fight only to have 4 at the beginning of the next fight.
Superior Defense: Nice, but completely useless, especially at the 18th level. Especially not in line with the strategic use of the monk.
Defy Death: Nice, but completely useless. It would be interesting be able to choose a feature from another monk subclass.
I find that there is a marked improvement in ONE DND, but the classes are not balanced. I thought there was an intention to improve this aspect, but instead it seems to have gotten worse. The already excellent fighter is even stronger because of the Weapon Mastery techniques. The mage is also even more adaptable. The rogue can now do more techniques than the monk without even spending resources. Honestly, I feel mocked. The monk class is really disappointing, I pray you can find a solution.
I recommend going to this link, and write your opinion about the monk. Because frankly they did the bullshit with this monk class redesign in ONE DND.
https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/7418024/UA-2023-Players-Handbook-Playtest-6?userid=106669714
Like I already pointed out some of the tier 1 or 2 features they mentioned scale into tier 3 and 4 which means they are within the scope of the original conversation. Since the game has been announced as backwards compatible any subclass that is not getting a rework is still eligible to be discussed. Also I’m realizing even under you constrained view which neither the original poster or the person you replied to applied of only specifically looking at subclasses named in the UA All but one have dpr scaling in tier 3 and 4. It’s not great but the only one that has nothing is Shadow. Hand has nothing other in T3, but gets a best out of all of them in T4. Elements 6th feature scale in T3 and T4 and they gain a new feature in T4. Mercy T1 feature scales in T3 and T4. The only statement that was made is that the subclasses added to dpr. They never claimed it was great or sufficient. If your reply would have been “You are correct but it’s insufficient.” We wouldn’t still be debating. In my first reply to you I said monk dpr is trash, but their claim is correct.
Ranger is fine because those numbers didn’t account for spells other than Hunters Mark. Barbarian is fine because they are tank AF. Maybe they need a boost, but at the table I have never seen it. This is probably because of 5e GWM which has been changed for 5eR. So maybe. The monk became the focus because they aren’t Tank AF, so people expect a some DPR, especially because at low level they look like they might be better dpr than a fighter base for base.
Typically because the martial arts die increases... which is worth 1-2 dpr even on the classes where it applies. Some of the examples are actions (rather than attack modifiers) and thus replace rather than augmenting damage -- and are generally quite low damage.
In any case, the point is not that monk subclasses don't have things that boost dpr. The point is that they don't have any more stuff along those lines than subclasses of other classes, and thus we can mostly ignore subclasses. To be decently competitive, you need to get total dpr bonus (class and subclass) up to 25-ish.
That's no problem for fighter, paladin, or rogue, they're almost there already.
For barbarian, Path of the Beast (infectious fury plus call the hunt) might do it, depending on party composition. No other barbarian comes close.
For monk, there are zero subclasses that provide the 22 dpr they need. Most work out to less than half that.
For ranger, beast master (bestial fury) is worth 20+ dpr if you're actually using hunter's mark. No other ranger comes close.
Why did you cut my post quote down to one sentence as if that was all I said. I literally have no reply to this since the rest of my post already answered this. Awkward
The original poster left out subclasses all together. The post I replied to wanted to add subclasses for monks but ignore all subclasses from others. The original poster even said WHY they left out subclasses because everyone gets subclasses and many of them have damage features. The whole point I made at the END of my argument was that the argument that they were making about subclasses did more to HARM their argument that monks were fine than it did to HELP because even WITH the subclasses added in the damage boosts were still less than the subclassless fighters, rogues and Paladins who are in a good spot. Right now your argument is pure pedantic with no actual point and wants to gloss over the POINT I made, which wasn't that "no subclasses added damage in T3" but that those features were few and far between in T3 and those that do, don't support the premise the person I was replying to was working under that Monks were fine in T3.
Second NO elementals 6th level feature DOESN'T count. It is an AOE feature not single target and the only time it beats out the single target in Ki efficiency and action economy (2 extra unarmed strikes on 2 different turns + 1 extra weapon attack from extra attack) requires 4 or 5 people within its area. It doesn't matter that the martial arts die gets bigger. And for MERCY, not only did I account for that in my reply I gave the FULL benefit of the entire martial arts die not just the 1 damage bump from the martial arts die going up, because it became free at level 11. So not only did I account for that in that post that you said you read and wouldn't be continuing to talk about if I gave that concession THAT I GAVE. I gave it a better bonus than it would actually have. If you agree that even WITH the subclasses in T3 that monk is still behind what fighter, rogue and paladin get in their base class, than you are arguing for nothing and wasting your time, and mine.
Being more durable than the rest of the party is only particularly useful if either (a) you have high damage to go along with it, (b) you have a way to force enemies to attack you, or (c) you have healing (being the last one standing when you have mass healing word or the like is a big deal). Otherwise all it means is that in a losing fight you're the last one to die, and in any other fight your durability didn't matter.