Being more durable than the rest of the party is only particularly useful if either (a) you have high damage to go along with it, (b) you have a way to force enemies to attack you, or (c) you have healing (being the last one standing when you have mass healing word or the like is a big deal). Otherwise all it means is that in a losing fight you're the last one to die, and in any other fight your durability didn't matter.
Right and to top it off it isn't like Monks don't get solid durability in T3 and T4. Level 10 gives them the ability to shrug off some bad effects, level 13 they can block ANY ranged attack, 14 they get diamond soul and will save against just about any attack, 18 they get half damage and their capstone even keeps them alive longer. Lower hit die, lots of powerful defensive features.
The Barbarian is getting hit just as often if not more because of reckless attack. In theory the monk can have more EHP by using Patient defense vs a Reckless attack Barbarian, but than the damage becomes even worse. There is a reason it is common to go 8 levels of barbarian and then go into fighter instead of continuing barbarian, and that trend is likely going to continue with monk as well. Ranger spells are the difference maker for continuing with it.
And if we really want to get into Subclasses with this..... Beast master.... going to skip because request, but hey I didn't skip mercy..... Gloomstalker at 11, an extra attack that only needs 1 other target not 3 or 4 or 5 and more targets means fear instead of damage. Hunter, the level 11 is a second choice of your level 3 feature, all of which add damage..... so it just adds damage. Fey Wanderer, concentration free summon fey that can be cast once without a slot. Turns out, while not every monk subclass in the PHB adds damage at 11, every single ranger subclass does.... and we still aren't talking about spells besides hunters mark.
But ya Barbarian and Monk don't really scale into T3 the way we want, specific subclasses and builds can Scale into T4, but by that point dipping out was probably already done.
And if we really want to get into Subclasses with this..... Beast master.... going to skip because request, but hey I didn't skip mercy.....
Gloomstalker at 11, an extra attack that only needs 1 other target not 3 or 4 or 5 and more targets means fear instead of damage. Hunter, the level 11 is a second choice of your level 3 feature, all of which add damage..... so it just adds damage. Fey Wanderer, concentration free summon fey that can be cast once without a slot. Turns out, while not every monk subclass in the PHB adds damage at 11, every single ranger subclass does.... and we still aren't talking about spells besides hunters mark.
Yes, but most of them are adding 5-10 dpr, not the 15-20 they actually need. I called out beast master because it does add that much damage.
Being more durable than the rest of the party is only particularly useful if either (a) you have high damage to go along with it, (b) you have a way to force enemies to attack you, or (c) you have healing (being the last one standing when you have mass healing word or the like is a big deal). Otherwise all it means is that in a losing fight you're the last one to die, and in any other fight your durability didn't matter.
Barbarian is a grappling beast, so you can force to be the target. I think using all physical options is part of the barbarian fighting style. With Grappler feat you can even save yourself for using Reckless Attack, so no advantage for the foe against you. Many other options like PAM or Sentinel to make worth for enemies going against you. Add that the others in the party to have their own self-caring, as they can't be mere dummies, so other characters with improved movement (so harder to reach), mirror image, high AC, and etc. completes the set.
And if we really want to get into Subclasses with this..... Beast master.... going to skip because request, but hey I didn't skip mercy.....
Gloomstalker at 11, an extra attack that only needs 1 other target not 3 or 4 or 5 and more targets means fear instead of damage. Hunter, the level 11 is a second choice of your level 3 feature, all of which add damage..... so it just adds damage. Fey Wanderer, concentration free summon fey that can be cast once without a slot. Turns out, while not every monk subclass in the PHB adds damage at 11, every single ranger subclass does.... and we still aren't talking about spells besides hunters mark.
Yes, but most of them are adding 5-10 dpr, not the 15-20 they actually need. I called out beast master because it does add that much damage.
Except, as others have point out 15-20 isn't actually what rangers need. Their spells are a bit better than just a hunter's mark upgrade. Because there are some very powerful stand out 3rd level and 4th level spells on the primal list.
Edit: Also the calcs didn't take nature's veil at 14 into consideration which is a limited 3 or 4 use 2 round greater invis on bonus action.
Barbarian and monk definitely need tier 3/4 boosts. Yeah the barbarian is tanky even while recklessly attacking every round. But there is no reason to stick with them past level 5 as you are still tanky but now you are tanky but get some abilities that don't suck.
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Let’s go back to the beginning, because you are making claims now that just didn’t happen within these post. Lillith’s post only states that it is showing Monk subclasses that add dpr. They made no other argumentative statement within this post other than a comparison to rogues subclasses. Your response was to be upset that they mentioned T1 and T2 features in a T3 and T4 thread. You decided to focus only on the playtest subclasses and claimed that none of them offer T3 dpr.
Now my argument was that some of those T1 and T2 features they named scale into T3 and T4 and were thus relevant for the conversation. Additionally since they scale in T3 and T4 only the Shadow doesn’t have a dpr boost in T3. I also said monks have trash dpr in multiple post. I was never arguing that they didn’t. If anyone has wasted your time it is yourself.
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Let’s go back to the beginning, because you are making claims now that just didn’t happen within these post. Lillith’s post only states that it is showing Monk subclasses that add dpr. They made no other argumentative statement within this post other than a comparison to rogues subclasses. Your response was to be upset that they mentioned T1 and T2 features in a T3 and T4 thread. You decided to focus only on the playtest subclasses and claimed that none of them offer T3 dpr.
Now my argument was that some of those T1 and T2 features they named scale into T3 and T4 and were thus relevant for the conversation. Additionally since they scale in T3 and T4 only the Shadow doesn’t have a dpr boost in T3. I also said monks have trash dpr in multiple post. I was never arguing that they didn’t. If anyone has wasted your time it is yourself.
Lilith's post IMPIES that by including the subclasses it fixes the monk issue T3 and T4 scaling issue and that by not including it when not doing so for the others is not fair because the monk subclasses are in some way superior to other classes subclasses. I am sorry I did not presume you had difficulty reading between lines and reading implied meanings. In my post you can see that I have written down Mercy Monk's damage increase so, right there the claim that I said None added damage is false, I said None but ONE. And they don't. Shadow adds no damage in T3. Elemental Adds no damage in T3, NO the T2 AOE ability DOES NOT count when we are talking about single target DPR, which the ORIGINAL post clearly was talking about, because otherwise the original poster WOULD have mentioned Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley instead of just hunter's mark as part of ranger, Which he didn't, and of course no open hand does not scale, none of the open hand features add damage until T4. So none of what I said in the post was false.
Lets examine the T1 and T2 abilities I WAS talking about specifically.
Elemental: T1 Elemental affinity, adds nothing to damage at all, doesn't scale with martial arts die.... has nothing to do with the conversation. T2 I already covered, AOE ability that scales but is irrelevant to the actual topic, so why are we mentioning it for T3 and T4 at all.
Mercy: The mention of the T1 ability is redundant along side the T3 ability, just mention the T3 ability it allows the free use of the T1 ability.
Let's continue with the other ones because why not. Ascendant Dragon..... Again AOE ability, not relevant to the conversation AND, just like the Mercy one redundant conversation because the level 11 feature upgrades it just mention the level 11 feature.
Drunken Master, tipsy sway, can we say doesn't scale and has nothing to do with T3? It works against enemies all the same whether you are 7 levels drunken master 4 levels fighter or just 11 levels monk it does the same thing so no it doesn't scale, why are we mentioning a T2 ability in T3?
Kensei, 1 damage average increase from T2, but the ability costs a ki, which causes less flurry of blows.... which means the assumption that flurry is used every round needs to go, which also means this is a decrease in damage per round not an increase. Increase to burst from lower tiers... by 1 damage. Does not help their argument it hurts it and no it doesn't scale DPR in T3.
So..... why are we mentioning T1 and T2 abilities in a T3 and 4 thread conversation, and adding subclasses does nothing to help Lillith's argument that Monks scale fine into T3 and T4, it actually does more to HURT that argument, because 3/4 of the subclasses in the new PHB add 0 damage in T3.... AND the ones that do add so little extra that the monk is still behind the advancement of other base classes.
Again sorry I did not realize you were incapable of reading between the lines and comprehending implied meanings, but nothing I said in my post was false.
Level 9-20: your best free smite changes from a basic smite (2d8) to banishing smite (5d10). Worth 1.2 dpr
Just want to point out that Searing Smite would do more damage, as it does 5d6 damage on hit and then 5d6 damage at the start of the target's next turn, so technically it's 10d6, but that extra damage can obviously be wasted but also searing smite can go for multiple rounds too if the creature fails the save (which it doesn't even get to make a save until after taking the damage twice!). Yeah, Searing smite is broken in the current UA.
Yeah the burn portion should require concentration, even with that it very strong.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Just want to point out that Searing Smite would do more damage, as it does 5d6 damage on hit and then 5d6 damage at the start of the target's next turn, so technically it's 10d6, but that extra damage can obviously be wasted but also searing smite can go for multiple rounds too if the creature fails the save (which it doesn't even get to make a save until after taking the damage twice!). Yeah, Searing smite is broken in the current UA.
Your free smite is cast without a spell slot and is thus at lowest level. But yes, searing smite should be +1d6 per two levels, not +1d6 per level (the level 1 version is fine).
Maybe we should talk about what order we should expect the martials to come in for DPR. I haven't crunched the numbers, but at level 11 the classes are in roughly this order for DPR. I know details like Feats chosen can shake up the list and nitpicky details can move a class up or down a notch. The order does not change much after level 11.
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger (depending on lots of build decisions)
Barbarian / Monk (depending on lots of build decisions)
Rogue
Rogue offence continues to grow linearly after level 11, which can look like a lot, but they are generally behind other martials because they do not have Extra Attack.
So what should be the order? In my opinion, the Warrior group should be consistently ahead of the other class groups. Thus Barbarian and Monk should be bumped up to be higher than Paladin/Ranger, but just below Fighter.
Maybe we should talk about what order we should expect the martials to come in for DPR. I haven't crunched the numbers, but at level 11 the classes are in roughly this order for DPR. I know details like Feats chosen can shake up the list and nitpicky details can move a class up or down a notch. The order does not change much after level 11.
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger (depending on lots of build decisions)
Barbarian / Monk (depending on lots of build decisions)
Rogue
Rogue offence continues to grow linearly after level 11, which can look like a lot, but they are generally behind other martials because they do not have Extra Attack.
So what should be the order? In my opinion, the Warrior group should be consistently ahead of the other class groups. Thus Barbarian and Monk should be bumped up to be higher than Paladin/Ranger, but just below Fighter.
For consistent or nova DPR? For consistent I’d put:
1. Fighter/Paladin 2. Ranger [depends on build decision] 3. Rogue [depends on build decision] 4. Monk [should be more consistent as a debuff applier etc] 5. Barbarian [should be consistent more than nova IMO]
That’s where I’d like to see it, in my personal opinion. Fighter should be ahead of paladin but until martial/caster balance is fixed [unlikely to happen] Paladin will end up ahead a lot of the time. By nova I mean using up your high-power resources like action surge and high level spell slots, something you can’t do all the time.
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I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Miley Cyrus music should be outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
Maybe we should talk about what order we should expect the martials to come in for DPR. I haven't crunched the numbers, but at level 11 the classes are in roughly this order for DPR. I know details like Feats chosen can shake up the list and nitpicky details can move a class up or down a notch. The order does not change much after level 11.
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger (depending on lots of build decisions)
Barbarian / Monk (depending on lots of build decisions)
Rogue
Rogue offence continues to grow linearly after level 11, which can look like a lot, but they are generally behind other martials because they do not have Extra Attack.
So what should be the order? In my opinion, the Warrior group should be consistently ahead of the other class groups. Thus Barbarian and Monk should be bumped up to be higher than Paladin/Ranger, but just below Fighter.
For consistent or nova DPR? For consistent I’d put:
1. Fighter/Paladin 2. Ranger [depends on build decision] 3. Rogue [depends on build decision] 4. Monk [should be more consistent as a debuff applier etc] 5. Barbarian [should be consistent more than nova IMO]
That’s where I’d like to see it, in my personal opinion. Fighter should be ahead of paladin but until martial/caster balance is fixed [unlikely to happen] Paladin will end up ahead a lot of the time. By nova I mean using up your high-power resources like action surge and high level spell slots, something you can’t do all the time.
Sorry, I noticed that you call the monk a kind of debuff applier. Perhaps before, now it can no longer be defined as such, the fighter can do it 10 times better with the fighting style - Battle Master + Weapon Mastery.
Maybe we should talk about what order we should expect the martials to come in for DPR. I haven't crunched the numbers, but at level 11 the classes are in roughly this order for DPR. I know details like Feats chosen can shake up the list and nitpicky details can move a class up or down a notch. The order does not change much after level 11.
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger (depending on lots of build decisions)
Barbarian / Monk (depending on lots of build decisions)
Rogue
Rogue offence continues to grow linearly after level 11, which can look like a lot, but they are generally behind other martials because they do not have Extra Attack.
So what should be the order? In my opinion, the Warrior group should be consistently ahead of the other class groups. Thus Barbarian and Monk should be bumped up to be higher than Paladin/Ranger, but just below Fighter.
For consistent or nova DPR? For consistent I’d put:
1. Fighter/Paladin 2. Ranger [depends on build decision] 3. Rogue [depends on build decision] 4. Monk [should be more consistent as a debuff applier etc] 5. Barbarian [should be consistent more than nova IMO]
That’s where I’d like to see it, in my personal opinion. Fighter should be ahead of paladin but until martial/caster balance is fixed [unlikely to happen] Paladin will end up ahead a lot of the time. By nova I mean using up your high-power resources like action surge and high level spell slots, something you can’t do all the time.
Sorry, I noticed that you call the monk a kind of debuff applier. Perhaps before, now it can no longer be defined as such, the fighter can do it 10 times better with the fighting style - Battle Master + Weapon Mastery.
To be accurate and fair they said that is where they would like to see them, not where they are.
Maybe we should talk about what order we should expect the martials to come in for DPR. I haven't crunched the numbers, but at level 11 the classes are in roughly this order for DPR. I know details like Feats chosen can shake up the list and nitpicky details can move a class up or down a notch. The order does not change much after level 11.
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger (depending on lots of build decisions)
Barbarian / Monk (depending on lots of build decisions)
Rogue
Rogue offence continues to grow linearly after level 11, which can look like a lot, but they are generally behind other martials because they do not have Extra Attack.
So what should be the order? In my opinion, the Warrior group should be consistently ahead of the other class groups. Thus Barbarian and Monk should be bumped up to be higher than Paladin/Ranger, but just below Fighter.
For consistent or nova DPR? For consistent I’d put:
1. Fighter/Paladin 2. Ranger [depends on build decision] 3. Rogue [depends on build decision] 4. Monk [should be more consistent as a debuff applier etc] 5. Barbarian [should be consistent more than nova IMO]
That’s where I’d like to see it, in my personal opinion. Fighter should be ahead of paladin but until martial/caster balance is fixed [unlikely to happen] Paladin will end up ahead a lot of the time. By nova I mean using up your high-power resources like action surge and high level spell slots, something you can’t do all the time.
UA6 Rogue is now the primary debuff applier. I love that aspect of Rogue and look forward to playing that style. The Rogue's Disarm, Trip, Withdraw, Daze, and Knock Out all fit the theme of a Monk. But how can Monk debuffs be different from Rogues (besides costing resources and requiring 1 stat to hit and 1 stat for the DC)? Monks hit more times, so the condition(s) could be based on the number of hits instead of the number of Sneak Attack dice. I know others have proposed inflicting Daze/Stun depending on the number of hits. Are there other conditions that fit Monk better than Rogue? My hunch is Grappled, Exhausted, and Paralyzed could work.
For reference, I bet Fighter Battle Master gets changed to only be able to apply 1 effect a turn, similar to how Paladins can now only smite once a turn. The devs are slightly decreasing the capability of nova builds.
UA6 Rogue is now the primary debuff applier. I love that aspect of Rogue and look forward to playing that style. The Rogue's Disarm, Trip, Withdraw, Daze, and Knock Out all fit the theme of a Monk. But how can Monk debuffs be different from Rogues (besides costing resources and requiring 1 stat to hit and 1 stat for the DC)? Monks hit more times, so the condition(s) could be based on the number of hits instead of the number of Sneak Attack dice. I know others have proposed inflicting Daze/Stun depending on the number of hits. Are there other conditions that fit Monk better than Rogue? My hunch is Grappled, Exhausted, and Paralyzed could work.
Well, rogue debuffs cost dice. The easiest way to have a similar effect for monks is to have a limit on number of discipline points spendable per turn, and then you just spend them for effects.
Maybe we should talk about what order we should expect the martials to come in for DPR. I haven't crunched the numbers, but at level 11 the classes are in roughly this order for DPR. I know details like Feats chosen can shake up the list and nitpicky details can move a class up or down a notch. The order does not change much after level 11.
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger (depending on lots of build decisions)
Barbarian / Monk (depending on lots of build decisions)
Rogue
Rogue offence continues to grow linearly after level 11, which can look like a lot, but they are generally behind other martials because they do not have Extra Attack.
So what should be the order? In my opinion, the Warrior group should be consistently ahead of the other class groups. Thus Barbarian and Monk should be bumped up to be higher than Paladin/Ranger, but just below Fighter.
For consistent or nova DPR? For consistent I’d put:
1. Fighter/Paladin 2. Ranger [depends on build decision] 3. Rogue [depends on build decision] 4. Monk [should be more consistent as a debuff applier etc] 5. Barbarian [should be consistent more than nova IMO]
That’s where I’d like to see it, in my personal opinion. Fighter should be ahead of paladin but until martial/caster balance is fixed [unlikely to happen] Paladin will end up ahead a lot of the time. By nova I mean using up your high-power resources like action surge and high level spell slots, something you can’t do all the time.
UA6 Rogue is now the primary debuff applier. I love that aspect of Rogue and look forward to playing that style. The Rogue's Disarm, Trip, Withdraw, Daze, and Knock Out all fit the theme of a Monk. But how can Monk debuffs be different from Rogues (besides costing resources and requiring 1 stat to hit and 1 stat for the DC)? Monks hit more times, so the condition(s) could be based on the number of hits instead of the number of Sneak Attack dice. I know others have proposed inflicting Daze/Stun depending on the number of hits. Are there other conditions that fit Monk better than Rogue? My hunch is Grappled, Exhausted, and Paralyzed could work.
For reference, I bet Fighter Battle Master gets changed to only be able to apply 1 effect a turn, similar to how Paladins can now only smite once a turn. The devs are slightly decreasing the capability of nova builds.
how can monk debuffs be different from rogue?? rogue Trip (dex save) is open-hand's Topple (dex save). rogue Disarm (dex save) is essentially just open-hand's Addle (con save). Withdraw might as well be open-hand's Push from a different point of view. heck, and any unarmed striker can Shove (prone) if they don't mind losing attack damage. so, question is more like why do rogues not have to be different than monks?
So, some thoughts on more coherent scaling for several classes:
Barbarian
Replace Brutal Critical (level 11) with
Brute. Once per turn, a melee weapon deals one extra die of its damage when the barbarian hits with it. At level 17, you are no longer limited to once per turn.
That gets us up to about 17 dpr at level 17, which is in the range we want.
Monk
For Martial Discipline, add the following
You may spend a maximum of 1 discipline point per turn. This increases to 2 at level 5, 3 at level 11, and 4 at level 17
For Flurry of Blows, change as following
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you may spend one or more discipline points to gain the same number of extra attacks, which may only be used for unarmed attacks.
This is a bit harder to math out because we can no longer assume FoB every turn -- you'd run out.
Ranger
At level 11, you may apply Hunter's Mark twice per turn (and change the beastmaster level 11 feature so it counts against that limit).
You may spend a maximum of 1 discipline point per turn. This increases to 2 at level 5, 3 at level 11, and 4 at level 17
For Flurry of Blows, change as following
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you may spend one or more discipline points to gain the same number of extra attacks, which may only be used for unarmed attacks.
This is a bit harder to math out because we can no longer assume FoB every turn -- you'd run out.
Not really harder to "math out" we just need to make an assumption about the number of rounds of combat between SRs. If we take the 6-8 encounters per day, and 1 SR per day as a backbone, and the 3-4 rounds per combat that would give us 9-16 rounds of combat between SRs (assuming all 6-8 encounters are combat). I'm going to lean towards the low end here because some encounters might not be combat, and some encounters might be be really short and say 11 rounds of combat between SRs.
Then if we use all our DP for FoB then level 5 = 5 extra unarmed strikes / 11 rounds of combat = (4.5+4)*5*0.65/11 = 2.5 DPR level 11 = 11 extra unarmed strikes / 11 rounds of combat = 5.5 DPR level 17 = 17 extra unarmed strikes / 11 rounds of combat = 8.5 DPR
In comparison, letting a Ranger add Hunter's Mark twice: P(1 hit | 3 attacks per round) = 0.24 P(2 hits | 3 attacks per round) = 0.44 P(3 hits | 3 attacks per round) = 0.27 Hunter's Mark damage = (0.44+0.27)*2*3.5*2 + 0.24*(2*3.5) = 11.6 DPR
* This is actually wrong as I didn't include the Archery Fighting Style, including Archery brings the DPR up to: 12.7
Or a Barbarian to add an extra weapon die on each hit (level 17):
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Monks have bad damage, but their argument was sound depending on their final stance. Astral Self adds dpr at 11th and 17th. Breath of Dragon scales in higher tiers so it needed to mentioned. Tipsy sway could have been left off. Elemental Attunement and Elemental Burst could have been left off. One with blade could have been left off. Sharpen the blade is a tier 3 increase to dpr. Unerring Accuracy at 17th is a dpr improvement which they did not mention. Long Death is great level 17 dpr boost. Mercy Hands of harm scale in tier 3 and 4. Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost. If their argument is that many monk subclasses add dpr in 3rd and 4th tier they aren’t wrong. If they believe it’s enough to catch up to fighter, Paladin or Rogue they are wrong. But should anything be compared to the fighters dpr. DPR is literally the one thing it has and honestly burst damage is far more important in a fight than dpr. I know they are shutting down many of the Nova plays, but that might be better for the game overall.
"Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost." quivering palms Is absolute Garbo after its change and the insult to injury is they gave some of the functionality to the bard.
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Right and to top it off it isn't like Monks don't get solid durability in T3 and T4. Level 10 gives them the ability to shrug off some bad effects, level 13 they can block ANY ranged attack, 14 they get diamond soul and will save against just about any attack, 18 they get half damage and their capstone even keeps them alive longer. Lower hit die, lots of powerful defensive features.
The Barbarian is getting hit just as often if not more because of reckless attack. In theory the monk can have more EHP by using Patient defense vs a Reckless attack Barbarian, but than the damage becomes even worse. There is a reason it is common to go 8 levels of barbarian and then go into fighter instead of continuing barbarian, and that trend is likely going to continue with monk as well. Ranger spells are the difference maker for continuing with it.
And if we really want to get into Subclasses with this..... Beast master.... going to skip because request, but hey I didn't skip mercy.....
Gloomstalker at 11, an extra attack that only needs 1 other target not 3 or 4 or 5 and more targets means fear instead of damage.
Hunter, the level 11 is a second choice of your level 3 feature, all of which add damage..... so it just adds damage. Fey Wanderer, concentration free summon fey that can be cast once without a slot. Turns out, while not every monk subclass in the PHB adds damage at 11, every single ranger subclass does.... and we still aren't talking about spells besides hunters mark.
But ya Barbarian and Monk don't really scale into T3 the way we want, specific subclasses and builds can Scale into T4, but by that point dipping out was probably already done.
Yes, but most of them are adding 5-10 dpr, not the 15-20 they actually need. I called out beast master because it does add that much damage.
Barbarian is a grappling beast, so you can force to be the target. I think using all physical options is part of the barbarian fighting style. With Grappler feat you can even save yourself for using Reckless Attack, so no advantage for the foe against you. Many other options like PAM or Sentinel to make worth for enemies going against you. Add that the others in the party to have their own self-caring, as they can't be mere dummies, so other characters with improved movement (so harder to reach), mirror image, high AC, and etc. completes the set.
Except, as others have point out 15-20 isn't actually what rangers need. Their spells are a bit better than just a hunter's mark upgrade. Because there are some very powerful stand out 3rd level and 4th level spells on the primal list.
Edit: Also the calcs didn't take nature's veil at 14 into consideration which is a limited 3 or 4 use 2 round greater invis on bonus action.
Barbarian and monk definitely need tier 3/4 boosts. Yeah the barbarian is tanky even while recklessly attacking every round. But there is no reason to stick with them past level 5 as you are still tanky but now you are tanky but get some abilities that don't suck.
Let’s go back to the beginning, because you are making claims now that just didn’t happen within these post.
Lillith’s post only states that it is showing Monk subclasses that add dpr. They made no other argumentative statement within this post other than a comparison to rogues subclasses.
Your response was to be upset that they mentioned T1 and T2 features in a T3 and T4 thread. You decided to focus only on the playtest subclasses and claimed that none of them offer T3 dpr.
Now my argument was that some of those T1 and T2 features they named scale into T3 and T4 and were thus relevant for the conversation. Additionally since they scale in T3 and T4 only the Shadow doesn’t have a dpr boost in T3. I also said monks have trash dpr in multiple post. I was never arguing that they didn’t. If anyone has wasted your time it is yourself.
Lilith's post IMPIES that by including the subclasses it fixes the monk issue T3 and T4 scaling issue and that by not including it when not doing so for the others is not fair because the monk subclasses are in some way superior to other classes subclasses. I am sorry I did not presume you had difficulty reading between lines and reading implied meanings. In my post you can see that I have written down Mercy Monk's damage increase so, right there the claim that I said None added damage is false, I said None but ONE. And they don't. Shadow adds no damage in T3. Elemental Adds no damage in T3, NO the T2 AOE ability DOES NOT count when we are talking about single target DPR, which the ORIGINAL post clearly was talking about, because otherwise the original poster WOULD have mentioned Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley instead of just hunter's mark as part of ranger, Which he didn't, and of course no open hand does not scale, none of the open hand features add damage until T4. So none of what I said in the post was false.
Lets examine the T1 and T2 abilities I WAS talking about specifically.
Elemental: T1 Elemental affinity, adds nothing to damage at all, doesn't scale with martial arts die.... has nothing to do with the conversation. T2 I already covered, AOE ability that scales but is irrelevant to the actual topic, so why are we mentioning it for T3 and T4 at all.
Mercy: The mention of the T1 ability is redundant along side the T3 ability, just mention the T3 ability it allows the free use of the T1 ability.
Let's continue with the other ones because why not.
Ascendant Dragon..... Again AOE ability, not relevant to the conversation AND, just like the Mercy one redundant conversation because the level 11 feature upgrades it just mention the level 11 feature.
Drunken Master, tipsy sway, can we say doesn't scale and has nothing to do with T3? It works against enemies all the same whether you are 7 levels drunken master 4 levels fighter or just 11 levels monk it does the same thing so no it doesn't scale, why are we mentioning a T2 ability in T3?
Kensei, 1 damage average increase from T2, but the ability costs a ki, which causes less flurry of blows.... which means the assumption that flurry is used every round needs to go, which also means this is a decrease in damage per round not an increase. Increase to burst from lower tiers... by 1 damage. Does not help their argument it hurts it and no it doesn't scale DPR in T3.
So..... why are we mentioning T1 and T2 abilities in a T3 and 4 thread conversation, and adding subclasses does nothing to help Lillith's argument that Monks scale fine into T3 and T4, it actually does more to HURT that argument, because 3/4 of the subclasses in the new PHB add 0 damage in T3.... AND the ones that do add so little extra that the monk is still behind the advancement of other base classes.
Again sorry I did not realize you were incapable of reading between the lines and comprehending implied meanings, but nothing I said in my post was false.
Just want to point out that Searing Smite would do more damage, as it does 5d6 damage on hit and then 5d6 damage at the start of the target's next turn, so technically it's 10d6, but that extra damage can obviously be wasted but also searing smite can go for multiple rounds too if the creature fails the save (which it doesn't even get to make a save until after taking the damage twice!). Yeah, Searing smite is broken in the current UA.
Anyway, 10d6 (35) > 5d10 (27.5).
Yeah the burn portion should require concentration, even with that it very strong.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Your free smite is cast without a spell slot and is thus at lowest level. But yes, searing smite should be +1d6 per two levels, not +1d6 per level (the level 1 version is fine).
Maybe we should talk about what order we should expect the martials to come in for DPR. I haven't crunched the numbers, but at level 11 the classes are in roughly this order for DPR. I know details like Feats chosen can shake up the list and nitpicky details can move a class up or down a notch. The order does not change much after level 11.
Rogue offence continues to grow linearly after level 11, which can look like a lot, but they are generally behind other martials because they do not have Extra Attack.
So what should be the order? In my opinion, the Warrior group should be consistently ahead of the other class groups. Thus Barbarian and Monk should be bumped up to be higher than Paladin/Ranger, but just below Fighter.
For consistent or nova DPR? For consistent I’d put:
1. Fighter
2. Ranger [it depends]
3. Monk
4. Rogue [it depends]
5. Paladin
6. Barbarian
And for nova:
1. Fighter/Paladin
2. Ranger [depends on build decision]
3. Rogue [depends on build decision]
4. Monk [should be more consistent as a debuff applier etc]
5. Barbarian [should be consistent more than nova IMO]
That’s where I’d like to see it, in my personal opinion. Fighter should be ahead of paladin but until martial/caster balance is fixed [unlikely to happen] Paladin will end up ahead a lot of the time. By nova I mean using up your high-power resources like action surge and high level spell slots, something you can’t do all the time.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Miley Cyrus music should be outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
Sorry, I noticed that you call the monk a kind of debuff applier. Perhaps before, now it can no longer be defined as such, the fighter can do it 10 times better with the fighting style - Battle Master + Weapon Mastery.
To be accurate and fair they said that is where they would like to see them, not where they are.
UA6 Rogue is now the primary debuff applier. I love that aspect of Rogue and look forward to playing that style. The Rogue's Disarm, Trip, Withdraw, Daze, and Knock Out all fit the theme of a Monk. But how can Monk debuffs be different from Rogues (besides costing resources and requiring 1 stat to hit and 1 stat for the DC)? Monks hit more times, so the condition(s) could be based on the number of hits instead of the number of Sneak Attack dice. I know others have proposed inflicting Daze/Stun depending on the number of hits. Are there other conditions that fit Monk better than Rogue? My hunch is Grappled, Exhausted, and Paralyzed could work.
For reference, I bet Fighter Battle Master gets changed to only be able to apply 1 effect a turn, similar to how Paladins can now only smite once a turn. The devs are slightly decreasing the capability of nova builds.
Well, rogue debuffs cost dice. The easiest way to have a similar effect for monks is to have a limit on number of discipline points spendable per turn, and then you just spend them for effects.
how can monk debuffs be different from rogue?? rogue Trip (dex save) is open-hand's Topple (dex save). rogue Disarm (dex save) is essentially just open-hand's Addle (con save). Withdraw might as well be open-hand's Push from a different point of view. heck, and any unarmed striker can Shove (prone) if they don't mind losing attack damage. so, question is more like why do rogues not have to be different than monks?
So, some thoughts on more coherent scaling for several classes:
Barbarian
Replace Brutal Critical (level 11) with
Brute. Once per turn, a melee weapon deals one extra die of its damage when the barbarian hits with it. At level 17, you are no longer limited to once per turn.
That gets us up to about 17 dpr at level 17, which is in the range we want.
Monk
For Martial Discipline, add the following
For Flurry of Blows, change as following
This is a bit harder to math out because we can no longer assume FoB every turn -- you'd run out.
Ranger
At level 11, you may apply Hunter's Mark twice per turn (and change the beastmaster level 11 feature so it counts against that limit).
Not really harder to "math out" we just need to make an assumption about the number of rounds of combat between SRs. If we take the 6-8 encounters per day, and 1 SR per day as a backbone, and the 3-4 rounds per combat that would give us 9-16 rounds of combat between SRs (assuming all 6-8 encounters are combat). I'm going to lean towards the low end here because some encounters might not be combat, and some encounters might be be really short and say 11 rounds of combat between SRs.
Then if we use all our DP for FoB then
level 5 = 5 extra unarmed strikes / 11 rounds of combat = (4.5+4)*5*0.65/11 = 2.5 DPR
level 11 = 11 extra unarmed strikes / 11 rounds of combat = 5.5 DPR
level 17 = 17 extra unarmed strikes / 11 rounds of combat = 8.5 DPR
In comparison, letting a Ranger add Hunter's Mark twice:
P(1 hit | 3 attacks per round) = 0.24
P(2 hits | 3 attacks per round) = 0.44
P(3 hits | 3 attacks per round) = 0.27
Hunter's Mark damage = (0.44+0.27)*2*3.5*2 + 0.24*(2*3.5) = 11.6 DPR
* This is actually wrong as I didn't include the Archery Fighting Style, including Archery brings the DPR up to: 12.7
Or a Barbarian to add an extra weapon die on each hit (level 17):
5.5*0.88*2+3.5*0.88 = 11.9 DPR
"Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost." quivering palms Is absolute Garbo after its change and the insult to injury is they gave some of the functionality to the bard.