After level 8 (typically where a stat of 20 is achieved), most martial classes do not get significant increases in damage output other than from magic items. Monsters, on the other hand, get quite large increases in hit points (and PCs also get quite large increases in durability). Looking at the martial classes in UA 5 and 6, here are damage increases after level 8 (ignoring subclasses, though that is quite significant for a couple of subclasses).
Barbarian
All math here assumes reckless attacking and a 70% base hit rate. Assumes 2 attacks per round, getting 3 attacks (PAM, 2WF) increases by 50%. We assume that the 4 rages you have at level 8 is enough to use one every combat, which is probably accurate.
Level 9: Rage bonus 3. Adds 1.8 dpr
Level 11: Brutal Critical. Adds 2 dpr at level 11, increases to 3.6 at level 20
Level 16: Rage Bonus 4. Adds 1.8 dpr
Level 18: Primal Champion. Adds 1.8 dpr.
Total: 7.4 dpr
Fighter
I'm going to assume a sword and board fighter with dueling style. It's not the highest dpr, but it doesn't terribly matter.
Level 11: two extra attacks. Adds 8 dpr + 0.7*magic weapon bonus.
Level 13: weapon adept. Might mean some of your attacks are using the increase die type of your versatile weapon, but I'm going to ignore it.
Level 15: improved action surge. Assuming 6 rounds combat per short rest, this is effectively 0.5 extra attacks, so it adds 4 dpr + 0.35*MW bonus
Level 18: three extra attacks. Adds 8 dpr + 0.7*magic weapon bonus.
Total: 20 dpr, plus 1.75* magic weapon bonus.
Monk
I'm going to assume flurry of blows every turn, which is probably a reasonable approximation at level 8+. I'm going to assume regular attacks are weapon attacks because, even without monk weapon scaling, weapon attacks are generally going to better than unarmed.
Level 11: Martial Arts die 1d10. Adds 1.4 dpr
Level 17: Martial Arts die 1d12. Adds 1.4 dpr.
Total 2.8 dpr....
Paladin
I'm going to assume 15 rounds of combat per day. Thus, each extra smite die is worth 0.3 dpr (4.5 / 15)
Level 9-20: your best free smite changes from a basic smite (2d8) to banishing smite (5d10). Worth 1.2 dpr.
Level 11: gain radiant strikes. Worth 6.3 dpr.
Total 19.2 dpr
Ranger
Level 9: gain 3rd level hunter's mark, worth about 3.1 bonus dpr
Level 17: gain 5th level hunter's mark, worth about 3.1 bonus dpr.
Total 6.2 dpr
Rogue
Assuming either steady aim (ranged rogue) or two attacks (melee rogue). Either way, 91% chance to get sneak attack damage.
Ignoring cunning strike, because it doesn't generally add dpr.
Level 9-19: gain 6d6 sneak attack, worth 19.1 dpr
Level 20: gain stroke of luck, which can turn a miss into a critical hit. Assuming 6 rounds combat per short rest, the ranged rogue has a 43% chance of getting an opportunity to use it, and typical damage is 84 (light crossbow). This gives about 6 dpr. It's more than doubled for a melee rogue.
Total 25.1 dpr.
Summary
Tier 3-4 scaling for fighter, paladin, and rogue is generally 20+ dpr (with additional benefits from magic weapons). That's a bit slower than monster hp scaling over those levels, but it's meaningful. Tier 3-4 for barbarian, monk, and ranger really needs help, though.
After level 8 (typically where a stat of 20 is achieved), most martial classes do not get significant increases in damage output other than from magic items. Monsters, on the other hand, get quite large increases in hit points (and PCs also get quite large increases in durability). Looking at the martial classes in UA 5 and 6, here are damage increases after level 8 (ignoring subclasses, though that is quite significant for a couple of subclasses).
Barbarian
All math here assumes reckless attacking and a 70% base hit rate. Assumes 2 attacks per round, getting 3 attacks (PAM, 2WF) increases by 50%. We assume that the 4 rages you have at level 8 is enough to use one every combat, which is probably accurate.
Level 9: Rage bonus 3. Adds 1.8 dpr
Level 11: Brutal Critical. Adds 2 dpr at level 11, increases to 3.6 at level 20
Level 16: Rage Bonus 4. Adds 1.8 dpr
Level 18: Primal Champion. Adds 1.8 dpr.
Total: 7.4 dpr
Fighter
I'm going to assume a sword and board fighter with dueling style. It's not the highest dpr, but it doesn't terribly matter.
Level 11: two extra attacks. Adds 8 dpr + 0.7*magic weapon bonus.
Level 13: weapon adept. Might mean some of your attacks are using the increase die type of your versatile weapon, but I'm going to ignore it.
Level 15: improved action surge. Assuming 6 rounds combat per short rest, this is effectively 0.5 extra attacks, so it adds 4 dpr + 0.35*MW bonus
Level 18: three extra attacks. Adds 8 dpr + 0.7*magic weapon bonus.
Total: 20 dpr, plus 1.75* magic weapon bonus.
Monk
I'm going to assume flurry of blows every turn, which is probably a reasonable approximation at level 8+. I'm going to assume regular attacks are weapon attacks because, even without monk weapon scaling, weapon attacks are generally going to better than unarmed.
Level 11: Martial Arts die 1d10. Adds 1.4 dpr
Level 17: Martial Arts die 1d12. Adds 1.4 dpr.
Total 2.8 dpr....
Paladin
I'm going to assume 15 rounds of combat per day. Thus, each extra smite die is worth 0.3 dpr (4.5 / 15)
Level 9-20: your best free smite changes from a basic smite (2d8) to banishing smite (5d10). Worth 1.2 dpr.
Level 11: gain radiant strikes. Worth 6.3 dpr.
Total 19.2 dpr
Ranger
Level 9: gain 3rd level hunter's mark, worth about 3.1 bonus dpr
Level 17: gain 5th level hunter's mark, worth about 3.1 bonus dpr.
Total 6.2 dpr
Rogue
Assuming either steady aim (ranged rogue) or two attacks (melee rogue). Either way, 91% chance to get sneak attack damage.
Ignoring cunning strike, because it doesn't generally add dpr.
Level 9-19: gain 6d6 sneak attack, worth 19.1 dpr
Level 20: gain stroke of luck, which can turn a miss into a critical hit. Assuming 6 rounds combat per short rest, the ranged rogue has a 43% chance of getting an opportunity to use it, and typical damage is 84 (light crossbow). This gives about 6 dpr. It's more than doubled for a melee rogue.
Total 25.1 dpr.
Summary
Tier 3-4 scaling for fighter, paladin, and rogue is generally 20+ dpr (with additional benefits from magic weapons). That's a bit slower than monster hp scaling over those levels, but it's meaningful. Tier 3-4 for barbarian, monk, and ranger really needs help, though.
This is pretty solid list. I think for rangers though it can be a little deceptive because of some of their other spells and their subclass features at 11 typically add some damage. But Monk and Barbarian are spot on. All of Monk's level 11 subclass features are mobility based. An example that all Rangers get is the conjure Barrage. It may not be a single target damage increase, but it does do more damage for AOE on the occasions where there are enough targets, making their damage increase situational, but still worthwhile.
The Ranger is Expertise (can do many other things) and get AoE damage, and depending subclass, like getting Colossus Slayer, get some more. So seems fine to me. Also getting feats like sharpshooter can create solid characters, even if not dealing the max damage.
The Barbarian can improve a lot with combat feats, looks like a character that requires them, but takes much advantage of it, attacking with advantage and having damage resistance. But aside the Berserker, seems it stops being that in-top damage dealer character.
The monk is ridiculous, not having even access to any combat feat that improves damage.
Please send the list to WotC in the survey to give them something to think about.
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The usual for monks, excluding some (usually very high level) specific subclass feature, is not having something to increase damage, but long combats dealing low damage. But this only works if environment allows it, as have to attach closely to the hit-and-run strategy. Some help like throwing weapons fighting style, Charger feat (being both very related to martial arts, like throwing shurikens or running kick), and allowing to use Bonus Action or Reaction to improve some the survivability when hit-and-run is not possible would fix a lot of issues.
The subclasses of others usually add damage too, with special mention to Berserker. But for Fighter, Battle Master can add the supremacy die, specially Counterattack grants a full attack action adding that die, the Samurai can get advantage which means extra damage and extra attacks at high level, the Rune Knight have a rune dealing 2d6 per turn until saving Str.
And adding feats, with a simple GWM any can add near the corresponding to that extra MA die without spending resources, while the monk hasn’t access to them, and even in that case it would be at cost of its AC, as it depends of 2 scores, while the others can wear armor and shields. With martial weapons masteries also add some extra for the average in many cases. In the case of the monk we could add 1d4 extra free with a dagger in off-hand and Nick.
So if we take into account all the other factors like subclass in many cases are compensated with some extra for the others, maintaining the difference. Notice that subclasses not adding some kind of damage, like the Psi Warrior, are considered the bad ones and usually not used but if want to try something different.
And if we add feats, even more.
That’s why I think some features should be opened to the monk as options, like Fighting Styles and combat feats, allowing it to mold and not losing that compensation compared to the others. And getting one extra feat like the Rogue (which seems to require even less but OK) to allow it to get some feat and not losing so much AC.
The problem here (aside from the usual "hypothetical DPR in a featureless void is the only thing that matters" nonsense) is that you're deriving this solely off of base classes.
By that metric, Fighters, Rogues, and Paladins come out ahead because...
The problem here (aside from the usual "hypothetical DPR in a featureless void is the only thing that matters" nonsense) is that you're deriving this solely off of base classes.
That's because analyzing the subclasses exponentially increases the amount of required effort and doesn't wind up mattering that much anyway because every class has a subclass that adds significantly. Yeah, there are some monk subclasses that add a noticeable amount of dpr, but have you looked at the paladin or rogue subclasses? (the fighter subclasses have fairly poor high level scaling).
That's because analyzing the subclasses exponentially increases the amount of required effort and doesn't wind up mattering that much anyway because every class has a subclass that adds significantly. Yeah, there are some monk subclasses that add a noticeable amount of dpr, but have you looked at the paladin or rogue subclasses? (the fighter subclasses have fairly poor high level scaling).
You clearly haven't looked at those subclasses, because almost all Paladin and Rogue subclasses have zero features that increase DPR. The only Paladin subclass that gives a consistent DPR increase that doesn't rely on conditions or their 20th-level ability is the Oathbreaker, while most Rogue subclasses have no extra damage features as well.
Oath of Devotion's Sacred Weapon is one of the best ways to boost your to-hit bonus, and now it's only a bonus action to activate.
Oath of Glory's Glorious Defense lets you make an attack as a reaction (while giving you a defense boost comparable to shield).
Oath of Vengeance's Vow of Emnity gives you advantage on every attack roll against a (transferrable) target, and later on Soul of Vengeance gives you a practically unavoidable reaction attack.
Swashbuckler's Rakish Audacity means the only way to not have Sneak Attack is by having disadvantage, Dashing Strikes lets you give 1d6 to the next attack roll of somebody within 30 feet (including yourself), and Master Duelist is a pretty common extra attack.
Thief's Reflexes is a whole-ass extra turn every single combat.
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You clearly haven't looked at those subclasses, because almost all Paladin and Rogue subclasses have zero features that increase DPR.
You clearly haven't looked at those subclasses.
Devotion (Holy Nimbus) is typically about 10 dpr * number of targets -- figure 2 targets for 20 dpr, but only in 25% of fights, 5 dpr.
Glory (Glorious Defense) is erratic but you will probably manage to use it at least once every 4 rounds (4 times in a day); probably around 3 dpr by level 20.
Glory (Living Legend) adds 0.51 hits per turn (about 7 dpr without a magic weapon); again, maybe 25% of fights, so about 2 dpr.
Ancients doesn't have much, though Swift Spells is likely a small increase.
Vengeance (Soul of Vengeance) is extremely reliable dpr, you're only likely to miss out if you used your reaction for something else like an opportunity attack. Figure around 7 dpr.
Assassin (Envenom Weapons) is sacrificing a die of sneak attack for a chance for *multiple* 2d6 poison hits that ignore resistance. Likely worth 2-3 dpr.
Assassin (Death Strike) gives a save (probably DC 20, since stat cap for dex is 22 at level 19; con saves of +10 do exist on monster but they aren't super common) or do double damage on an attack that's probably doing 45+. Sure, it's only once per combat and it's not reliable, but it's still likely on the order of 7 dpr.
Swashbuckler (Master Duelist) gives you an additional attack in a situation that you can achieve quite reliably. It won't get sneak attack damage but it's still worth around 5 dpr. Note that it is (probably accidentally) the only extra attack type ability that can be used outside of your turn.
Thief (Thief's Reflexes) gets you an extra turn every combat. It's worth upwards of 10 dpr.
Barbarian gets and additional +2 at 20th to strength or constitution, so for some that another 1.8 dpr. Also the focus of a Barbarian in those later levels is in survivability. No other class can’t take more Damage and keep going than a Barbarian. Monks have been bad in multiple editions. We can keep petitioning for them to be better. 5e made it so you don’t need Str for damage so that was an improvement. By 7e they will be great. They are still fun to play at least. Ranger is a weird one because your math only accounts for hunters mark. They have other spells to vastly increase their dpr when targeting multiple creatures: Hail of Thorns, Ashardalon’s Stride, Lightning Arrow, Conjure Barrage, and Conjure Volley. Guardian of Nature for StrRanger using Primal Beast is superior than running HM in 5e and would be far superior the HM in 5eR at least until the spell gets a rework or errata.
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Monks have bad damage, but their argument was sound depending on their final stance. Astral Self adds dpr at 11th and 17th. Breath of Dragon scales in higher tiers so it needed to mentioned. Tipsy sway could have been left off. Elemental Attunement and Elemental Burst could have been left off. One with blade could have been left off. Sharpen the blade is a tier 3 increase to dpr. Unerring Accuracy at 17th is a dpr improvement which they did not mention. Long Death is great level 17 dpr boost. Mercy Hands of harm scale in tier 3 and 4. Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost. If their argument is that many monk subclasses add dpr in 3rd and 4th tier they aren’t wrong. If they believe it’s enough to catch up to fighter, Paladin or Rogue they are wrong. But should anything be compared to the fighters dpr. DPR is literally the one thing it has and honestly burst damage is far more important in a fight than dpr. I know they are shutting down many of the Nova plays, but that might be better for the game overall.
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Monks have bad damage, but their argument was sound depending on their final stance. Astral Self adds dpr at 11th and 17th. Breath of Dragon scales in higher tiers so it needed to mentioned. Tipsy sway could have been left off. Elemental Attunement and Elemental Burst could have been left off. One with blade could have been left off. Sharpen the blade is a tier 3 increase to dpr. Unerring Accuracy at 17th is a dpr improvement which they did not mention. Long Death is great level 17 dpr boost. Mercy Hands of harm scale in tier 3 and 4. Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost. If their argument is that many monk subclasses add dpr in 3rd and 4th tier they aren’t wrong. If they believe it’s enough to catch up to fighter, Paladin or Rogue they are wrong. But should anything be compared to the fighters dpr. DPR is literally the one thing it has and honestly burst damage is far more important in a fight than dpr. I know they are shutting down many of the Nova plays, but that might be better for the game overall.
And none of those except mercy are in the PHB, and this is about the One DnD PHB playtest. I covered every single one of the PHB Subclasses in this playtest for T3... NONE of them except Mercy get anything to add to damage in T3 at all, so YES they are wrong about subclasses adding DPR in T3 with the exception of one out of 4 subclasses. If the only option to play monk is not in the PHB than the new PHB subclasses are failing. So either the monk is failing or the subclasses are.
In terms of T4: Open Hand Quivering Palm: you give up your action the turn you do this so that means you miss out on 4 attacks, you are trading 4d12+20*to hit for 10d12+17*save chance/half on save assuming a 50% chance to save vs a 65% chance to hit, damage would be from 31.2 to 61.5 average damage . So yes, actually I would call this a big damage boost honestly... in T4, not T3, T3 is over.
Shadow Cloak of Shadows You have to use your bonus action to activate it so no flurry the turn you first use it, and it basically just gives advantage on everything, which you likely already had under most circumstances since level 3, but hey at least this way you don't mess up your party with it. but no, this one doesn't really add to damage in t4, and combining with the fact that it doesn't add damage in t3 and no Shadow does not add to damage in t3 or t4. Adds situational abilities yes, damage not really.
Elements Elemental Epitome It adds damage for AOE, which invalidates the already lackluster level 6 features aoe damage, and adds 6.5 DPR to single targets.
Mercy Hand of Ultimate Mercy Add 0 DPR BUT does bring someone back from the dead, and a dead party member contributes 0 dpr, while a live one is at least doing 20 or 30....Caster does this.... with a higher gold cost but an equivalent resource cost at this level.
People have DONE the work INCLUDING subclasses, no one is asking monk to do more DPR than all other classes. The monk has less survival in melee and has to be in melee to do their best damage which is less than all other melee classes even if they pump EVERYTHING into that DPR and the other classes don't in T3. If the monk wants to hit and run in one dnd it has to use its ki and lose out on its bonus action to dash and disengage halving its damage. (Note the mobile feat doesn't exist in one DnD it was replaced with the speedster feat which DOESN'T allow the free disengage so no you can't just take a feat for that). And this is all because almost everything the monk does is tied to their bonus action, damage and defense making the monk FEEL clunky to play in ACTUAL play of the game.
(Edit note: fighters, in addition to having great DPR also have one of the best Burst damage features in the game with Action surge, but fighter SHOULD be the kings of damage, they fight it is in their name, and I don't think matching a fighter's DPR or burst is what we should want any other class to do, Monks should be more comparable to rogues and rangers and maybe even Paladins in my opinion).
I can see a way for the monk to be a more martial Rogue replacement. I mean, it cannot be the front liner, so you cannot use it as your only party martial, because who protects the weaker ones? It requires a special party config (with everyone with its own way to fade). It is not the great damage dealer, as you have to use the Bonus Action many times for defense.
Then I repeat what it needs is to open options, like Fighting Styles and combat feats, add a feat at level 5-6, so can mold the character better, and make it some kind of semi-expertise, like the Ranger getting 3 skill proficiencies instead 2, and grating access to more and better ones. In small parties could help a lot.
I can see a way for the monk to be a more martial Rogue replacement. I mean, it cannot be the front liner, so you cannot use it as your only party martial, because who protects the weaker ones? It requires a special party config (with everyone with its own way to fade). It is not the great damage dealer, as you have to use the Bonus Action many times for defense.
Then I repeat what it needs is to open options, like Fighting Styles and combat feats, add a feat at level 5-6, so can mold the character better, and make it some kind of semi-expertise, like the Ranger getting 3 skill proficiencies instead 2, and grating access to more and better ones. In small parties could help a lot.
Obviously, as is, it does not work as a "more martial rogue". Several reasons, 1. The current rogue has less restrictions on armor. 2. the current rogue has less restrictions on weapons and weapon masteries. 3. the current rogue does more damage without giving up their bonus action for hit and run because sneak attack doesn't use your bonus action it is just built into the attack and cunning action costs nothing but a bonus action.
Honestly, I am not entirely sure what the monk's playstyle is SUPPOSED to be.
Is the intent attack, extra attack spend 1 ki for stunning strike, if it lands flurry, if it fails step or patient defense? That is the best I can come up with that monk can do that others can't, but it doesn't kick in till level 5 and only works for like 2 rounds of combat.
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Monks have bad damage, but their argument was sound depending on their final stance. Astral Self adds dpr at 11th and 17th. Breath of Dragon scales in higher tiers so it needed to mentioned. Tipsy sway could have been left off. Elemental Attunement and Elemental Burst could have been left off. One with blade could have been left off. Sharpen the blade is a tier 3 increase to dpr. Unerring Accuracy at 17th is a dpr improvement which they did not mention. Long Death is great level 17 dpr boost. Mercy Hands of harm scale in tier 3 and 4. Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost. If their argument is that many monk subclasses add dpr in 3rd and 4th tier they aren’t wrong. If they believe it’s enough to catch up to fighter, Paladin or Rogue they are wrong. But should anything be compared to the fighters dpr. DPR is literally the one thing it has and honestly burst damage is far more important in a fight than dpr. I know they are shutting down many of the Nova plays, but that might be better for the game overall.
And none of those except mercy are in the PHB, and this is about the One DnD PHB playtest. I covered every single one of the PHB Subclasses in this playtest for T3... NONE of them except Mercy get anything to add to damage in T3 at all, so YES they are wrong about subclasses adding DPR in T3 with the exception of one out of 4 subclasses. If the only option to play monk is not in the PHB than the new PHB subclasses are failing. So either the monk is failing or the subclasses are.
In terms of T4: Open Hand Quivering Palm: you give up your action the turn you do this so that means you miss out on 4 attacks, you are trading 4d12+20*to hit for 10d12+17*save chance/half on save assuming a 50% chance to save vs a 65% chance to hit, damage would be from 31.2 to 61.5 average damage . So yes, actually I would call this a big damage boost honestly... in T4, not T3, T3 is over.
Shadow Cloak of Shadows You have to use your bonus action to activate it so no flurry the turn you first use it, and it basically just gives advantage on everything, which you likely already had under most circumstances since level 3, but hey at least this way you don't mess up your party with it. but no, this one doesn't really add to damage in t4, and combining with the fact that it doesn't add damage in t3 and no Shadow does not add to damage in t3 or t4. Adds situational abilities yes, damage not really.
Elements Elemental Epitome It adds damage for AOE, which invalidates the already lackluster level 6 features aoe damage, and adds 6.5 DPR to single targets.
Mercy Hand of Ultimate Mercy Add 0 DPR BUT does bring someone back from the dead, and a dead party member contributes 0 dpr, while a live one is at least doing 20 or 30....Caster does this.... with a higher gold cost but an equivalent resource cost at this level.
People have DONE the work INCLUDING subclasses, no one is asking monk to do more DPR than all other classes. The monk has less survival in melee and has to be in melee to do their best damage which is less than all other melee classes even if they pump EVERYTHING into that DPR and the other classes don't in T3. If the monk wants to hit and run in one dnd it has to use its ki and lose out on its bonus action to dash and disengage halving its damage. (Note the mobile feat doesn't exist in one DnD it was replaced with the speedster feat which DOESN'T allow the free disengage so no you can't just take a feat for that). And this is all because almost everything the monk does is tied to their bonus action, damage and defense making the monk FEEL clunky to play in ACTUAL play of the game.
First we don’t know if Mercy will be in the PHB or if it was used to test backwards compatibility. Note that anyone who doesn’t own Tasha’s can’t playtest Mercy. Second you are moving goalpost and I don’t have time for that. You literally jumped on here complaining that someone brought up tier 1-2 features on a topic about tier 3 and 4, but now are refusing to accept that most monk sub classes do have dpr boost in tiers 3 and 4. Like I said some of the early tier features scale up in later tiers. Also we will not be restricted to PHB subclasses in 5eR. They gave up the level alignment just to keep it backwards compatible. So disregarding Kensei who gets dpr improvements at 11 and 17th just because it doesn’t fit your narrative won’t work here. At least you admit hand has a substantial dpr increase, but it’s hard to deny because of how large it is. Long Death also has a big T4 increase. Final note mercy does have a dpr increase in T4 because hand of harm scales to a d12. It’s crap dpr increase, but it’s still dpr increase which is the only point that was arguing.
I'm sure everyone is going to convince WotC that Monk Bad and needs to have more DPR than every other martial class combined with a thread where people whining about Monk openly admit that they don't want to do any work whatsoever in calculating classes' DPR in actual gameplay.
The people who make the game play the game. They don't just listen to angry YouTubers to form opinions on classes they don't play.
Reality is monk has been bad since I first played one in 3e, but I still played more because I liked he flavor and had fun. Monks required proper builds back then. Honestly still do, but there are far less tools to build with in 5e. I didn’t get pleasure of playing 4e monk since I quit that game before the PHB 3 came out. Monks have the best lvl 1 dpr and it falls off after that. They have crap AC and crap HP. In exchange they get more movement. It’s not a fair trade. They can’t even use this movement freely in combat.
So, let's actually touch on Monk subclasses at higher levels and increased DPR:
Astral Self: 11th level, Body of the Astral Self adds an extra Martial Arts die to one attack per turn. 17th level, Awakened Astral Self gives you an additional Extra Attack.
Ascendant Dragon: 3rd level, Breath of the Dragon gives you a 20-foot cone/30-foot line that deals two rolls of your Martial Arts die, as a replacement for one attack per Attack action. (You get PB number of uses, plus extra uses for 2 points each.) 11th level, Breath of the Dragon improves to three Martial Arts dice. 17th level, you can spend 1 point to increase the range of Breath of the Dragon (60-foot cone, 90-foot line) and deal four Martial Arts dice damage.
Drunken Master: 6th level, Tipsy Sway lets you spend 1 point and reaction to cause an attack aimed at you that misses to automatically hit a creature adjacent to you. 17th level, Intoxicated Frenzy lets you make five Flurry of Blows attacks if all of those attacks are against separate targets (note that Drunken Master gets Disengage when using FoB).
Elements (OneD&D): 3rd level, Elemental Attunement gives extra damage if you can exploit weaknesses. 6th level, Environmental Burst lets you spend 3 points to deal 3d[MA die] in a 20-foot sphere. 17th level, Elemental Epitome gives you an extra Martial Arts die on one unarmed strike per turn.
Kensei: 6th level, One with the Blade lets you spend 1 to do one Martial Arts die extra damage with weapon attacks. 11th level, Sharpen the Blade lets you augment a weapon up to +3 attack/damage (provided it doesn't already have an attack/damage bonus).
Long Death: 17th level, Touch of the Long Death lets you spend up to 10 points to deal 2d10 necrotic damage per point spent (half on CON save).
Mercy: 3rd level, Hands of Harm lets you deal one extra Martial Arts die + WIS damage on one unarmed strike per turn for 1 point. 11th level, Flurry of Healing and Harm lets you use your Hands of Harm for free alongside Flurry of Blows.
Open Hand: 17th level, Quivering Palm. insert rant about not being able to instakill literally anything for 3 ki points
Shadow (OneD&D): 17th level, Cloak of Shadows lets you use Flurry of Blows for no cost while not in bright light.
Almost every Monk subclass provides its own form of damage increase, some of which are area-of-effect, and some of which allow the Monk to vary between prolonged damage output or single-target alpha-striking. This is on top of various utility features as well. Compare that to Rogue, for example, where only a few subclasses grant features that offer additional damage.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Monks have bad damage, but their argument was sound depending on their final stance. Astral Self adds dpr at 11th and 17th. Breath of Dragon scales in higher tiers so it needed to mentioned. Tipsy sway could have been left off. Elemental Attunement and Elemental Burst could have been left off. One with blade could have been left off. Sharpen the blade is a tier 3 increase to dpr. Unerring Accuracy at 17th is a dpr improvement which they did not mention. Long Death is great level 17 dpr boost. Mercy Hands of harm scale in tier 3 and 4. Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost. If their argument is that many monk subclasses add dpr in 3rd and 4th tier they aren’t wrong. If they believe it’s enough to catch up to fighter, Paladin or Rogue they are wrong. But should anything be compared to the fighters dpr. DPR is literally the one thing it has and honestly burst damage is far more important in a fight than dpr. I know they are shutting down many of the Nova plays, but that might be better for the game overall.
And none of those except mercy are in the PHB, and this is about the One DnD PHB playtest. I covered every single one of the PHB Subclasses in this playtest for T3... NONE of them except Mercy get anything to add to damage in T3 at all, so YES they are wrong about subclasses adding DPR in T3 with the exception of one out of 4 subclasses. If the only option to play monk is not in the PHB than the new PHB subclasses are failing. So either the monk is failing or the subclasses are.
In terms of T4: Open Hand Quivering Palm: you give up your action the turn you do this so that means you miss out on 4 attacks, you are trading 4d12+20*to hit for 10d12+17*save chance/half on save assuming a 50% chance to save vs a 65% chance to hit, damage would be from 31.2 to 61.5 average damage . So yes, actually I would call this a big damage boost honestly... in T4, not T3, T3 is over.
Shadow Cloak of Shadows You have to use your bonus action to activate it so no flurry the turn you first use it, and it basically just gives advantage on everything, which you likely already had under most circumstances since level 3, but hey at least this way you don't mess up your party with it. but no, this one doesn't really add to damage in t4, and combining with the fact that it doesn't add damage in t3 and no Shadow does not add to damage in t3 or t4. Adds situational abilities yes, damage not really.
Elements Elemental Epitome It adds damage for AOE, which invalidates the already lackluster level 6 features aoe damage, and adds 6.5 DPR to single targets.
Mercy Hand of Ultimate Mercy Add 0 DPR BUT does bring someone back from the dead, and a dead party member contributes 0 dpr, while a live one is at least doing 20 or 30....Caster does this.... with a higher gold cost but an equivalent resource cost at this level.
People have DONE the work INCLUDING subclasses, no one is asking monk to do more DPR than all other classes. The monk has less survival in melee and has to be in melee to do their best damage which is less than all other melee classes even if they pump EVERYTHING into that DPR and the other classes don't in T3. If the monk wants to hit and run in one dnd it has to use its ki and lose out on its bonus action to dash and disengage halving its damage. (Note the mobile feat doesn't exist in one DnD it was replaced with the speedster feat which DOESN'T allow the free disengage so no you can't just take a feat for that). And this is all because almost everything the monk does is tied to their bonus action, damage and defense making the monk FEEL clunky to play in ACTUAL play of the game.
First we don’t know if Mercy will be in the PHB or if it was used to test backwards compatibility. Note that anyone who doesn’t own Tasha’s can’t playtest Mercy. Second you are moving goalpost and I don’t have time for that. You literally jumped on here complaining that someone brought up tier 1-2 features on a topic about tier 3 and 4, but now are refusing to accept that most monk sub classes do have dpr boost in tiers 3 and 4. Like I said some of the early tier features scale up in later tiers. Also we will not be restricted to PHB subclasses in 5eR. They gave up the level alignment just to keep it backwards compatible. So disregarding Kensei who gets dpr improvements at 11 and 17th just because it doesn’t fit your narrative won’t work here. At least you admit hand has a substantial dpr increase, but it’s hard to deny because of how large it is. Long Death also has a big T4 increase. Final note mercy does have a dpr increase in T4 because hand of harm scales to a d12. It’s crap dpr increase, but it’s still dpr increase which is the only point that was arguing.
No I didn't move the goal posts if you read the post I had, I specifically named each of the subclasses that appeared in this playtest, it was clearly out in the open, choosing to ignore that doesn't mean I moved anything, it just means you chose to ignore it. And, according to the video the subclasses they are testing here are the ones that will appear in the PHB. So, as far as WoTC have announced the subclasses that appear here are the ones intended for the PHB, Mercy will be in the PHB until they announce differently. Even the document itself suggests as such "This playtest document is part of a series of Unearthed Arcana articles that present material designed for the 2024 version of the Player’s Handbook" And yes 1 point of damage increase for mercy from their previous feature, that doesn't change anything else I said. It doesn't change the fact that ADDING the Subclasses does more harm to the argument that Monks are ok than good because even WITH the subclasses taken into account they aren't scaling as well as base classes for other classes. Except Quivering Palm on open hand, which got no boost in T3, but this is great in T4.
I can see a way for the monk to be a more martial Rogue replacement. I mean, it cannot be the front liner, so you cannot use it as your only party martial, because who protects the weaker ones? It requires a special party config (with everyone with its own way to fade). It is not the great damage dealer, as you have to use the Bonus Action many times for defense.
Then I repeat what it needs is to open options, like Fighting Styles and combat feats, add a feat at level 5-6, so can mold the character better, and make it some kind of semi-expertise, like the Ranger getting 3 skill proficiencies instead 2, and grating access to more and better ones. In small parties could help a lot.
Obviously, as is, it does not work as a "more martial rogue". Several reasons, 1. The current rogue has less restrictions on armor. 2. the current rogue has less restrictions on weapons and weapon masteries. 3. the current rogue does more damage without giving up their bonus action for hit and run because sneak attack doesn't use your bonus action it is just built into the attack and cunning action costs nothing but a bonus action.
Honestly, I am not entirely sure what the monk's playstyle is SUPPOSED to be.
Is the intent attack, extra attack spend 1 ki for stunning strike, if it lands flurry, if it fails step or patient defense? That is the best I can come up with that monk can do that others can't, but it doesn't kick in till level 5 and only works for like 2 rounds of combat.
Notice that the Rogue depends completely of having a friendly foe adjacent to the target, which the monk don't. So the monk can be a martial semi-rogue by its own, attacking its own targets (like enemy back line casters) not conditioned, while having mobility.
In fact the monk is one of the more tactical martial in the game, take a run and place a stunning strike to the back line enemy caster, for making it to lose its turn, use Step of the Wind to run climbing the wall and jump to step on the back of the Dragon...the monk is IMO the most funny martial to play, but as it lacks direct combat efficiency and seems hard to fix, for me it's OK MA being lesser damaging but more versatile, but allow to mold the character and make it some more skilled as trade-off.
I am not a fan of how the Rogue is made, taking full Sneak Attack simply spamming ranged attacks to a target because is adjacent to a friendly one, from my POV is absurd. I think on the Rogue more like hiding and surprise attacks. But that is what we have.
After level 8 (typically where a stat of 20 is achieved), most martial classes do not get significant increases in damage output other than from magic items. Monsters, on the other hand, get quite large increases in hit points (and PCs also get quite large increases in durability). Looking at the martial classes in UA 5 and 6, here are damage increases after level 8 (ignoring subclasses, though that is quite significant for a couple of subclasses).
Barbarian
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Summary
Tier 3-4 scaling for fighter, paladin, and rogue is generally 20+ dpr (with additional benefits from magic weapons). That's a bit slower than monster hp scaling over those levels, but it's meaningful. Tier 3-4 for barbarian, monk, and ranger really needs help, though.
This is pretty solid list. I think for rangers though it can be a little deceptive because of some of their other spells and their subclass features at 11 typically add some damage. But Monk and Barbarian are spot on. All of Monk's level 11 subclass features are mobility based. An example that all Rangers get is the conjure Barrage. It may not be a single target damage increase, but it does do more damage for AOE on the occasions where there are enough targets, making their damage increase situational, but still worthwhile.
The Ranger is Expertise (can do many other things) and get AoE damage, and depending subclass, like getting Colossus Slayer, get some more. So seems fine to me. Also getting feats like sharpshooter can create solid characters, even if not dealing the max damage.
The Barbarian can improve a lot with combat feats, looks like a character that requires them, but takes much advantage of it, attacking with advantage and having damage resistance. But aside the Berserker, seems it stops being that in-top damage dealer character.
The monk is ridiculous, not having even access to any combat feat that improves damage.
Please send the list to WotC in the survey to give them something to think about.
Yeah, the poor monks.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The usual for monks, excluding some (usually very high level) specific subclass feature, is not having something to increase damage, but long combats dealing low damage. But this only works if environment allows it, as have to attach closely to the hit-and-run strategy. Some help like throwing weapons fighting style, Charger feat (being both very related to martial arts, like throwing shurikens or running kick), and allowing to use Bonus Action or Reaction to improve some the survivability when hit-and-run is not possible would fix a lot of issues.
The subclasses of others usually add damage too, with special mention to Berserker. But for Fighter, Battle Master can add the supremacy die, specially Counterattack grants a full attack action adding that die, the Samurai can get advantage which means extra damage and extra attacks at high level, the Rune Knight have a rune dealing 2d6 per turn until saving Str.
And adding feats, with a simple GWM any can add near the corresponding to that extra MA die without spending resources, while the monk hasn’t access to them, and even in that case it would be at cost of its AC, as it depends of 2 scores, while the others can wear armor and shields. With martial weapons masteries also add some extra for the average in many cases. In the case of the monk we could add 1d4 extra free with a dagger in off-hand and Nick.
So if we take into account all the other factors like subclass in many cases are compensated with some extra for the others, maintaining the difference. Notice that subclasses not adding some kind of damage, like the Psi Warrior, are considered the bad ones and usually not used but if want to try something different.
And if we add feats, even more.
That’s why I think some features should be opened to the monk as options, like Fighting Styles and combat feats, allowing it to mold and not losing that compensation compared to the others. And getting one extra feat like the Rogue (which seems to require even less but OK) to allow it to get some feat and not losing so much AC.
not a bad point.
not a good point.
That's because analyzing the subclasses exponentially increases the amount of required effort and doesn't wind up mattering that much anyway because every class has a subclass that adds significantly. Yeah, there are some monk subclasses that add a noticeable amount of dpr, but have you looked at the paladin or rogue subclasses? (the fighter subclasses have fairly poor high level scaling).
Oath of Devotion's Sacred Weapon is one of the best ways to boost your to-hit bonus, and now it's only a bonus action to activate.
Oath of Glory's Glorious Defense lets you make an attack as a reaction (while giving you a defense boost comparable to shield).
Oath of Vengeance's Vow of Emnity gives you advantage on every attack roll against a (transferrable) target, and later on Soul of Vengeance gives you a practically unavoidable reaction attack.
Arcane Trickster's Spellcasting gives them plenty of practical damage spells like find familiar, armor of Agathys, and hellish rebuke.
Assassin's surely self-explanatory.
Swashbuckler's Rakish Audacity means the only way to not have Sneak Attack is by having disadvantage, Dashing Strikes lets you give 1d6 to the next attack roll of somebody within 30 feet (including yourself), and Master Duelist is a pretty common extra attack.
Thief's Reflexes is a whole-ass extra turn every single combat.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
You clearly haven't looked at those subclasses.
Barbarian gets and additional +2 at 20th to strength or constitution, so for some that another 1.8 dpr. Also the focus of a Barbarian in those later levels is in survivability. No other class can’t take more Damage and keep going than a Barbarian.
Monks have been bad in multiple editions. We can keep petitioning for them to be better. 5e made it so you don’t need Str for damage so that was an improvement. By 7e they will be great. They are still fun to play at least.
Ranger is a weird one because your math only accounts for hunters mark. They have other spells to vastly increase their dpr when targeting multiple creatures: Hail of Thorns, Ashardalon’s Stride, Lightning Arrow, Conjure Barrage, and Conjure Volley. Guardian of Nature for StrRanger using Primal Beast is superior than running HM in 5e and would be far superior the HM in 5eR at least until the spell gets a rework or errata.
Why are we talking about tier 1 and 2 abilities in a tier 3 and 4 conversation thread.
Just looking at one dnd subclasses.
Elemental
11: step of the wind upgrade.
Open hand
11: step of the wind upgrade
Shadow
11: teleport upgrade
Mercy
11: average 1 extra die of damage or 5.5
Adding subclasses not only doesn't help your argument, it hurts it because one dnd phb tier 3 monk subclasses give nothing to add to damage.
Monks have bad damage, but their argument was sound depending on their final stance. Astral Self adds dpr at 11th and 17th. Breath of Dragon scales in higher tiers so it needed to mentioned. Tipsy sway could have been left off. Elemental Attunement and Elemental Burst could have been left off. One with blade could have been left off. Sharpen the blade is a tier 3 increase to dpr. Unerring Accuracy at 17th is a dpr improvement which they did not mention. Long Death is great level 17 dpr boost. Mercy Hands of harm scale in tier 3 and 4. Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost. If their argument is that many monk subclasses add dpr in 3rd and 4th tier they aren’t wrong. If they believe it’s enough to catch up to fighter, Paladin or Rogue they are wrong. But should anything be compared to the fighters dpr. DPR is literally the one thing it has and honestly burst damage is far more important in a fight than dpr. I know they are shutting down many of the Nova plays, but that might be better for the game overall.
And none of those except mercy are in the PHB, and this is about the One DnD PHB playtest. I covered every single one of the PHB Subclasses in this playtest for T3... NONE of them except Mercy get anything to add to damage in T3 at all, so YES they are wrong about subclasses adding DPR in T3 with the exception of one out of 4 subclasses. If the only option to play monk is not in the PHB than the new PHB subclasses are failing. So either the monk is failing or the subclasses are.
In terms of T4:
Open Hand
Quivering Palm: you give up your action the turn you do this so that means you miss out on 4 attacks, you are trading 4d12+20*to hit for 10d12+17*save chance/half on save assuming a 50% chance to save vs a 65% chance to hit, damage would be from 31.2 to 61.5 average damage . So yes, actually I would call this a big damage boost honestly... in T4, not T3, T3 is over.
Shadow
Cloak of Shadows
You have to use your bonus action to activate it so no flurry the turn you first use it, and it basically just gives advantage on everything, which you likely already had under most circumstances since level 3, but hey at least this way you don't mess up your party with it. but no, this one doesn't really add to damage in t4, and combining with the fact that it doesn't add damage in t3 and no Shadow does not add to damage in t3 or t4. Adds situational abilities yes, damage not really.
Elements
Elemental Epitome
It adds damage for AOE, which invalidates the already lackluster level 6 features aoe damage, and adds 6.5 DPR to single targets.
Mercy
Hand of Ultimate Mercy
Add 0 DPR BUT does bring someone back from the dead, and a dead party member contributes 0 dpr, while a live one is at least doing 20 or 30....Caster does this.... with a higher gold cost but an equivalent resource cost at this level.
People have DONE the work INCLUDING subclasses, no one is asking monk to do more DPR than all other classes. The monk has less survival in melee and has to be in melee to do their best damage which is less than all other melee classes even if they pump EVERYTHING into that DPR and the other classes don't in T3. If the monk wants to hit and run in one dnd it has to use its ki and lose out on its bonus action to dash and disengage halving its damage. (Note the mobile feat doesn't exist in one DnD it was replaced with the speedster feat which DOESN'T allow the free disengage so no you can't just take a feat for that). And this is all because almost everything the monk does is tied to their bonus action, damage and defense making the monk FEEL clunky to play in ACTUAL play of the game.
(Edit note: fighters, in addition to having great DPR also have one of the best Burst damage features in the game with Action surge, but fighter SHOULD be the kings of damage, they fight it is in their name, and I don't think matching a fighter's DPR or burst is what we should want any other class to do, Monks should be more comparable to rogues and rangers and maybe even Paladins in my opinion).
I can see a way for the monk to be a more martial Rogue replacement. I mean, it cannot be the front liner, so you cannot use it as your only party martial, because who protects the weaker ones? It requires a special party config (with everyone with its own way to fade). It is not the great damage dealer, as you have to use the Bonus Action many times for defense.
Then I repeat what it needs is to open options, like Fighting Styles and combat feats, add a feat at level 5-6, so can mold the character better, and make it some kind of semi-expertise, like the Ranger getting 3 skill proficiencies instead 2, and grating access to more and better ones. In small parties could help a lot.
Obviously, as is, it does not work as a "more martial rogue". Several reasons, 1. The current rogue has less restrictions on armor. 2. the current rogue has less restrictions on weapons and weapon masteries. 3. the current rogue does more damage without giving up their bonus action for hit and run because sneak attack doesn't use your bonus action it is just built into the attack and cunning action costs nothing but a bonus action.
Honestly, I am not entirely sure what the monk's playstyle is SUPPOSED to be.
Is the intent attack, extra attack spend 1 ki for stunning strike, if it lands flurry, if it fails step or patient defense? That is the best I can come up with that monk can do that others can't, but it doesn't kick in till level 5 and only works for like 2 rounds of combat.
First we don’t know if Mercy will be in the PHB or if it was used to test backwards compatibility. Note that anyone who doesn’t own Tasha’s can’t playtest Mercy.
Second you are moving goalpost and I don’t have time for that. You literally jumped on here complaining that someone brought up tier 1-2 features on a topic about tier 3 and 4, but now are refusing to accept that most monk sub classes do have dpr boost in tiers 3 and 4. Like I said some of the early tier features scale up in later tiers. Also we will not be restricted to PHB subclasses in 5eR. They gave up the level alignment just to keep it backwards compatible. So disregarding Kensei who gets dpr improvements at 11 and 17th just because it doesn’t fit your narrative won’t work here. At least you admit hand has a substantial dpr increase, but it’s hard to deny because of how large it is. Long Death also has a big T4 increase. Final note mercy does have a dpr increase in T4 because hand of harm scales to a d12. It’s crap dpr increase, but it’s still dpr increase which is the only point that was arguing.
Reality is monk has been bad since I first played one in 3e, but I still played more because I liked he flavor and had fun. Monks required proper builds back then. Honestly still do, but there are far less tools to build with in 5e. I didn’t get pleasure of playing 4e monk since I quit that game before the PHB 3 came out. Monks have the best lvl 1 dpr and it falls off after that. They have crap AC and crap HP. In exchange they get more movement. It’s not a fair trade. They can’t even use this movement freely in combat.
No I didn't move the goal posts if you read the post I had, I specifically named each of the subclasses that appeared in this playtest, it was clearly out in the open, choosing to ignore that doesn't mean I moved anything, it just means you chose to ignore it. And, according to the video the subclasses they are testing here are the ones that will appear in the PHB. So, as far as WoTC have announced the subclasses that appear here are the ones intended for the PHB, Mercy will be in the PHB until they announce differently. Even the document itself suggests as such "This playtest document is part of a series of Unearthed Arcana articles that present material designed for the 2024 version of the Player’s Handbook" And yes 1 point of damage increase for mercy from their previous feature, that doesn't change anything else I said. It doesn't change the fact that ADDING the Subclasses does more harm to the argument that Monks are ok than good because even WITH the subclasses taken into account they aren't scaling as well as base classes for other classes. Except Quivering Palm on open hand, which got no boost in T3, but this is great in T4.
Notice that the Rogue depends completely of having a friendly foe adjacent to the target, which the monk don't. So the monk can be a martial semi-rogue by its own, attacking its own targets (like enemy back line casters) not conditioned, while having mobility.
In fact the monk is one of the more tactical martial in the game, take a run and place a stunning strike to the back line enemy caster, for making it to lose its turn, use Step of the Wind to run climbing the wall and jump to step on the back of the Dragon...the monk is IMO the most funny martial to play, but as it lacks direct combat efficiency and seems hard to fix, for me it's OK MA being lesser damaging but more versatile, but allow to mold the character and make it some more skilled as trade-off.
I am not a fan of how the Rogue is made, taking full Sneak Attack simply spamming ranged attacks to a target because is adjacent to a friendly one, from my POV is absurd. I think on the Rogue more like hiding and surprise attacks. But that is what we have.