Just as a point of reference, was prior posts referring to Disney (the largest, wealthiest, most successful media conglomerate on the planet), or did they mean to say some company that hasn't seriously looked at purchasing Hasbro in a single swallow that wouldn't even ripple on the balance sheet?
The next UA will get here when it gets here, and is unlikely to satisfy anyone who look at it from a single Point of View, such as "will this character class meet my expectations". Allow me to soothe your anxiety and say unequivocally that it will not.
The forums are not a good measure of general response, either, especially without any sort of data to support that (and no one thus far has provided anything more than their own sense of those forums, which is not a scientific basis), as there is a distinct variance between the number of UA survey responses and the total number of consistently active forum members.
Not that complaining about how different classes suck in their own special and unique way is bad -- that has been going on since the earliest days of the game being published for an audience beyond the local group that it spawned from. Which is why I can say that the Monk and the Druid will never be able to be the perfect class: they never have been.
Nor has any other class. Because if they had, previously, then we wouldn't have a bazillion sub-class variants for all the assorted classes between the official and the homebrews.
About the only possible way that would be able to be made to work would be to shift away from a class based system -- and that ain't gonna happen in D&D.
I am looking forward to more of the basic mechanics, and expect that the new UA will arrive this month -- which is still funny because I am only ever going to use it for reference, since my large group has alreadyd ecided on a course of action that uses D&D as the base and then makes it fit the world that has been created. In particular, I want to see how they adjust these spells and the "magic types", as we had already headed down that path and while we have more types, the underlying idea is similar.
But, as ever, the things that are most important are combat mechanics, spells, and monsters. They are the backbone of the game, and what gives it it the D&D feel -- classes are far more flexible and fluid.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (2000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA
I would dare to disagree about the expectations. In a system where some classes are better than others, better ckasses are the benchmark to which weaker classes should be buffed and then measured up against.
I mean, take level 1 UA monk and a level 1 UA fighter. Fighter just takes two-weapon fighting style, a shortsword and a scimitar, and boom - two attacks in one attack action, second one being done with advantage. Monk has to use a bonus action for the same two attacks, and doesn't get an advantage on second attack. All while having lower HP and likely lower AC, too. It doesn't even go to the level of situational bonuses or conditions or anything - they do exactly the same thing in exactly the same way, but one class is strictly worse.
Level 1 Fighter, as you describe, will do 2d6 + Mod x 2 damage with their action, getting advantage on their second attack if the first hits.
A Level 1 Monk...can equip one of the simple weapons with Nick (dagger, light hammer, or sickle) and a handaxe (also a light weapon with Vex) and do the exact same thing, and also throw in their bonus unarmed strike. So the Monk will do 2d6 + Mod x 2 + 1d4 damage, also with advantage on the second attack (which can be their 1d6 + Mod unarmed strike, rather than the 1d4 off-hand attack).
Note as well that when they hit Level 2, the Monk will be able to add another 1d6 + Mod damage on two turns. A Fighter with that equipment will only get that boost on one turn with Action Surge, because Nick doesn't allow you to make a second off-hand attack in one turn. (Action Surge vs. Flurry of Blows x2 evens out more if the Fighter is using a two-hander.)
You're right, but what about making the basic monk thing that monks are designed for - that is, unarmed combat - viable?
Agreed, in practice monk is totally fine and fun in most campaigns because most campaigns end before the poor scaling of monk attacks kicks in (at level 11). They only need to allow any Weapon Mastery of your choice to apply to unarmed strikes for monk to keep pace with other martials from 1-7. Monks absolutely need a damage boost at level 11 though.
I would dare to disagree about the expectations. In a system where some classes are better than others, better ckasses are the benchmark to which weaker classes should be buffed and then measured up against.
I mean, take level 1 UA monk and a level 1 UA fighter. Fighter just takes two-weapon fighting style, a shortsword and a scimitar, and boom - two attacks in one attack action, second one being done with advantage. Monk has to use a bonus action for the same two attacks, and doesn't get an advantage on second attack. All while having lower HP and likely lower AC, too. It doesn't even go to the level of situational bonuses or conditions or anything - they do exactly the same thing in exactly the same way, but one class is strictly worse.
So yes, let's take a Level 1 Fighter vs. a Level 1 Monk.
A Level 1 Fighter, as you describe, will do 2d6 + Mod x 2 damage with their action, getting advantage on their second attack if the first hits.
A Level 1 Monk...can equip one of the simple weapons with Nick (dagger, light hammer, or sickle) and a handaxe (also a light weapon with Vex) and do the exact same thing, and also throw in their bonus unarmed strike. So the Monk will do 2d6 + Mod x 2 + 1d4 damage, also with advantage on the second attack (which can be their 1d6 + Mod unarmed strike, rather than the 1d4 off-hand attack).
Note as well that when they hit Level 2, the Monk will be able to add another 1d6 + Mod damage on two turns. A Fighter with that equipment will only get that boost on one turn with Action Surge, because Nick doesn't allow you to make a second off-hand attack in one turn. (Action Surge vs. Flurry of Blows x2 evens out more if the Fighter is using a two-hander.)
this is disingenuous you know the fighter is much better at scaling in the long run and doesn't require resource .
on top of having more freedom to chose feats. you want to talk balance, but turn a blind eye to this fact.
At Level 5, a Monk will do 3d8 + Mod x 3 damage with unarmed attacks; 12-33 assuming a +3 modifier (16-44 with Flurry of Blows). Compared to a Fighter using a d12 two-hander (8-30) or dual-wielding light weapons (12-27).
So yep, unarmed combat is absolutely viable. Nick is good early on but loses its damage edge once martials get their Extra Attack.
But then weapon masteries, magic items, and feats come in. Graze/cleave, great weapon fighting to reroll 1s and 2s on damage dice, GWM for extra 1d6 per round, some +1 greatsword, while monk gets... nothing to compare with masteries, unarmed feats like Grappler and Tavern Brawler still use Str to grapple and shove and offer no direct damage boost, and there's nothing much to emulate magic weapons. So assuming 65% base hit chance and a +3 ability score modifier, monk gets (4,5base+3mod)*3atks*0,65hit=14,6 average DPR, plus one attempt to stun on first attack to gain advantage, five times per short rest. While fighter can do something like (8,33base*2+1magicweapon*2+gwm3,5)*0,7hit+3*2graze=21,5 average DPR. When not in a vacuum, monk's unarmed combat isn't doing so well.
A Level 1 Fighter, as you describe, will do 2d6 + Mod x 2 damage with their action, getting advantage on their second attack if the first hits.
A Level 1 Monk...can equip one of the simple weapons with Nick (dagger, light hammer, or sickle) and a handaxe (also a light weapon with Vex) and do the exact same thing, and also throw in their bonus unarmed strike. So the Monk will do 2d6 + Mod x 2 + 1d4 damage, also with advantage on the second attack (which can be their 1d6 + Mod unarmed strike, rather than the 1d4 off-hand attack).
Note as well that when they hit Level 2, the Monk will be able to add another 1d6 + Mod damage on two turns. A Fighter with that equipment will only get that boost on one turn with Action Surge, because Nick doesn't allow you to make a second off-hand attack in one turn. (Action Surge vs. Flurry of Blows x2 evens out more if the Fighter is using a two-hander.)
I mean, they could easily just tweak the rules as to not allow you to benefit from both Martial Artist's Bonus Action attack and Two weapon Fighting in the same turn. Maybe also reduce Flurry of Blows to 1 hit until level 11.
And a link ("Visit https://dndbeyond.link/yt_playtest7un... and help shape the future of Dungeons & Dragons. New playtest coming September 7th at 10:30am PST.") to the Playtest 7 pdf as well... buuuut it only leads to the regular playtest page. And no new things up before the release date, of course. Such a tease :)
BUT! I can't help feeling that What's In the Box-excitement (Birthday present? Gameshow? ... Se7en?). Am lots curious! Thursday has my permission to come fast as it can!
They could also tweak the rules that when you hit an enemy with Flurry of Blows, they explode in a 60-foot radius for 20d12 damage.
That's just as likely as the two things you've posited, changes they would have no reason to make and honestly aren't reasonable things to believe would ever happen.
Moving the bonus action unarmed attack into your action would allow the monk to use things like Step of the Wind or Patient Defense without crippling their damage. You know, the tools they have to help keep them alive. I've been told Monks are supposedly Skirmishers and not front liners. I'd think that having access to features that actually allow them to do that effectively would be a good thing. It's also low key what they are doing with Two-weapon Fighting, which functions similarly and deals about the same damage. And seeing as how you brought up the issue of them stacking I thought that this solution was the easiest method of dealing with that.
To be honest with you I'm not really sure how that's comparable to "a 60ft radius for 20d12 damage." Had I not know any better, I would have thought you were just making a bad faith argument here. But I'm sure you never do that! All that would do is discredit your arguments after all, not mine.
class spell lists specifically bard called out ranger spells like summon barrage not shared
all tasha's summoning spells included in PHB
barbarian reckless attack lasts until end of next turn... so lasts two attacks. (sly rogue buff?) instinctive pounce rage leap now core (from tashas) guaranteed *d12 added to barbarian critical, regardless of weapon path of totem warrior --> path of wild heart, bear nerfed but now nine animals? ...spider?? path of world tree... healing + teleportation?? battlefield control path of the zealot... "only one change" (since UA5) also "here are the many changes..."
fighter caps out at 6 weapon masteries, now can swap out properties of all your weapons (at 9th) new brawler subclass? incentivizing short rests. because those are great. action surge no longer for magic. hah. new 2nd level feature: burn a second wind to add 1d10 to ability checks new 5th level feature: second wind also triggers disengage (half-speed)? battle master... not gonna dismantle it for the base class. one free maneuver a turn at 15th? brawler! anything's a weapon! how is this not a barbarian?? champion again for some reason. one free advantage per turn?? eldritch knight, more spells, can use arcane focus. one attack can be a cantrip, later two. or a 1-level or 2-level spell!
one minute 'innate sorcery' rage, enhanced as you level, later can use more or cheaper metamagics for duration sorcerous restoration "get 1 if have none upon initiative" moved from 15th to 5th. similar for monk maybe? twin spell... not 2014 version, less complex: now interacts strictly with 'upcast'-able spells draconic... wings always on again. draconic presence not concentration. wild magic... more reliable?? more tapping into magic to refresh ability to trigger wild magic aberrant and clockwork to appear in PH later. use tashas to playtest, no changes.
magical cunning: warlock can preform 1min [creepy] ritual to regain pact slots (once per day). similar for monk, maybe??? mystic arcanum no longer invocation pact boon now invocation??? you can have more than one! start with tome/blade at first and have 10 invocations max, including chain master of myriad forms down from 15th to 5th? pact of the blade enhancements, thirsting blade with number-of-attack boosts? eldritch smite moved to PHB fiend subclass... hurl through hell nerfed a little archfey... now leans heavy into misty step add-on effects, damage reflect, free misty step w/ enchant or illusion celestial in core! few tweaks great old one, two-way telepathy, spooky, spookier, hex free and enhanced(!!), summon aberration
wizard... dedicated spell list is back
...okay, they're done talking about warlock so i'll have to watch the rest later... here's sharing the monk hope!!
barbarian reckless attack lasts until end of next turn... so lasts two attacks. (sly rogue buff?) instinctive pounce rage leap now core (from tashas) guaranteed *d12 added to barbarian critical, regardless of weapon path of totem warrior --> path of wild heart, bear nerfed but now nine animals? ...spider?? path of world tree... healing + teleportation?? battlefield control
Correct. I heard that at the beginning and with all the discussion going on about monk I thought it fitting to mention that right away.
How about nah. This has been more entertaining than any of one dnd since it began plastering.
Just as a point of reference, was prior posts referring to Disney (the largest, wealthiest, most successful media conglomerate on the planet), or did they mean to say some company that hasn't seriously looked at purchasing Hasbro in a single swallow that wouldn't even ripple on the balance sheet?
The next UA will get here when it gets here, and is unlikely to satisfy anyone who look at it from a single Point of View, such as "will this character class meet my expectations". Allow me to soothe your anxiety and say unequivocally that it will not.
The forums are not a good measure of general response, either, especially without any sort of data to support that (and no one thus far has provided anything more than their own sense of those forums, which is not a scientific basis), as there is a distinct variance between the number of UA survey responses and the total number of consistently active forum members.
Not that complaining about how different classes suck in their own special and unique way is bad -- that has been going on since the earliest days of the game being published for an audience beyond the local group that it spawned from. Which is why I can say that the Monk and the Druid will never be able to be the perfect class: they never have been.
Nor has any other class. Because if they had, previously, then we wouldn't have a bazillion sub-class variants for all the assorted classes between the official and the homebrews.
About the only possible way that would be able to be made to work would be to shift away from a class based system -- and that ain't gonna happen in D&D.
I am looking forward to more of the basic mechanics, and expect that the new UA will arrive this month -- which is still funny because I am only ever going to use it for reference, since my large group has alreadyd ecided on a course of action that uses D&D as the base and then makes it fit the world that has been created. In particular, I want to see how they adjust these spells and the "magic types", as we had already headed down that path and while we have more types, the underlying idea is similar.
But, as ever, the things that are most important are combat mechanics, spells, and monsters. They are the backbone of the game, and what gives it it the D&D feel -- classes are far more flexible and fluid.
Only a DM since 1980 (2000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA
Wyrlde.com
Free PDFs
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I would dare to disagree about the expectations. In a system where some classes are better than others, better ckasses are the benchmark to which weaker classes should be buffed and then measured up against.
I mean, take level 1 UA monk and a level 1 UA fighter. Fighter just takes two-weapon fighting style, a shortsword and a scimitar, and boom - two attacks in one attack action, second one being done with advantage. Monk has to use a bonus action for the same two attacks, and doesn't get an advantage on second attack. All while having lower HP and likely lower AC, too. It doesn't even go to the level of situational bonuses or conditions or anything - they do exactly the same thing in exactly the same way, but one class is strictly worse.
You're right, but what about making the basic monk thing that monks are designed for - that is, unarmed combat - viable?
Agreed, in practice monk is totally fine and fun in most campaigns because most campaigns end before the poor scaling of monk attacks kicks in (at level 11). They only need to allow any Weapon Mastery of your choice to apply to unarmed strikes for monk to keep pace with other martials from 1-7. Monks absolutely need a damage boost at level 11 though.
this is disingenuous you know the fighter is much better at scaling in the long run and doesn't require resource .
on top of having more freedom to chose feats. you want to talk balance, but turn a blind eye to this fact.
Dragging it back on topic
that is a damn good question
one I would tongue-in-cheek speculate on, but, well, mods
But then weapon masteries, magic items, and feats come in. Graze/cleave, great weapon fighting to reroll 1s and 2s on damage dice, GWM for extra 1d6 per round, some +1 greatsword, while monk gets... nothing to compare with masteries, unarmed feats like Grappler and Tavern Brawler still use Str to grapple and shove and offer no direct damage boost, and there's nothing much to emulate magic weapons. So assuming 65% base hit chance and a +3 ability score modifier, monk gets (4,5base+3mod)*3atks*0,65hit=14,6 average DPR, plus one attempt to stun on first attack to gain advantage, five times per short rest. While fighter can do something like (8,33base*2+1magicweapon*2+gwm3,5)*0,7hit+3*2graze=21,5 average DPR. When not in a vacuum, monk's unarmed combat isn't doing so well.
Playtest 7 video Coming 9/7/23 12:00
I mean, they could easily just tweak the rules as to not allow you to benefit from both Martial Artist's Bonus Action attack and Two weapon Fighting in the same turn. Maybe also reduce Flurry of Blows to 1 hit until level 11.
And a link ("Visit https://dndbeyond.link/yt_playtest7un... and help shape the future of Dungeons & Dragons. New playtest coming September 7th at 10:30am PST.") to the Playtest 7 pdf as well... buuuut it only leads to the regular playtest page. And no new things up before the release date, of course. Such a tease :)
BUT! I can't help feeling that What's In the Box-excitement (Birthday present? Gameshow? ... Se7en?). Am lots curious! Thursday has my permission to come fast as it can!
Moving the bonus action unarmed attack into your action would allow the monk to use things like Step of the Wind or Patient Defense without crippling their damage. You know, the tools they have to help keep them alive. I've been told Monks are supposedly Skirmishers and not front liners. I'd think that having access to features that actually allow them to do that effectively would be a good thing. It's also low key what they are doing with Two-weapon Fighting, which functions similarly and deals about the same damage. And seeing as how you brought up the issue of them stacking I thought that this solution was the easiest method of dealing with that.
To be honest with you I'm not really sure how that's comparable to "a 60ft radius for 20d12 damage." Had I not know any better, I would have thought you were just making a bad faith argument here. But I'm sure you never do that! All that would do is discredit your arguments after all, not mine.
They already pulled it down.
They put a new one up.
That was fast. I’m hoping Warlock gets some love
i hope monk is crazy different, just for one UA. just to see.
Fighter Brawler coming so maybe that can be the STR unarmed people have been looking for and monks can get some love
which you say because the live feed already started (an hour earlier previously mentioned): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQxFfFGtdxw
spoiler:
return to pact magic??!
class spell lists
specifically bard called out
ranger spells like summon barrage not shared
all tasha's summoning spells included in PHB
barbarian reckless attack lasts until end of next turn... so lasts two attacks. (sly rogue buff?)
instinctive pounce rage leap now core (from tashas)
guaranteed *d12 added to barbarian critical, regardless of weapon
path of totem warrior --> path of wild heart, bear nerfed but now nine animals? ...spider??
path of world tree... healing + teleportation?? battlefield control
path of the zealot... "only one change" (since UA5) also "here are the many changes..."
fighter caps out at 6 weapon masteries, now can swap out properties of all your weapons (at 9th)
new brawler subclass?
incentivizing short rests. because those are great.
action surge no longer for magic. hah.
new 2nd level feature: burn a second wind to add 1d10 to ability checks
new 5th level feature: second wind also triggers disengage (half-speed)?
battle master... not gonna dismantle it for the base class. one free maneuver a turn at 15th?
brawler! anything's a weapon! how is this not a barbarian??
champion again for some reason. one free advantage per turn??
eldritch knight, more spells, can use arcane focus. one attack can be a cantrip, later two. or a 1-level or 2-level spell!
one minute 'innate sorcery' rage, enhanced as you level, later can use more or cheaper metamagics for duration
sorcerous restoration "get 1 if have none upon initiative" moved from 15th to 5th. similar for monk maybe?
twin spell... not 2014 version, less complex: now interacts strictly with 'upcast'-able spells
draconic... wings always on again. draconic presence not concentration.
wild magic... more reliable?? more tapping into magic to refresh ability to trigger wild magic
aberrant and clockwork to appear in PH later. use tashas to playtest, no changes.
magical cunning: warlock can preform 1min [creepy] ritual to regain pact slots (once per day). similar for monk, maybe???
mystic arcanum no longer invocation
pact boon now invocation??? you can have more than one! start with tome/blade at first and have 10 invocations max, including chain
master of myriad forms down from 15th to 5th?
pact of the blade enhancements, thirsting blade with number-of-attack boosts? eldritch smite moved to PHB
fiend subclass... hurl through hell nerfed a little
archfey... now leans heavy into misty step add-on effects, damage reflect, free misty step w/ enchant or illusion
celestial in core! few tweaks
great old one, two-way telepathy, spooky, spookier, hex free and enhanced(!!), summon aberration
wizard... dedicated spell list is back
...okay, they're done talking about warlock so i'll have to watch the rest later... here's sharing the monk hope!!
Correct. I heard that at the beginning and with all the discussion going on about monk I thought it fitting to mention that right away.
Finally a UA that sounds actually good. Dare I be optimistic for the future of monk?