“Fey Presence” should not have gone away but rather improved upon (Archfey warlock)
Fey Presence is my favorite feature with archfey warlock because even if it had issues… it is so incredibly fun and is very fitting for archfey warlock
Fey Presence may not have much use in combat but it can be incredibly useful in social situations and is again, thematically fitting.
It may be weak, but charming and enchanting people, or even making them scared, is a fun fantasy to have as a character. And it’s nice to have an ability like this without having to use a spell slot.
I loved the 2014 subclass as it was a warlock subclass based on enchanting. It was an incredible subclass for social encounter based campaigns where you would be persuading, deceiving or investigating more then you were fighting
The misty step features are cool but… fey presence shouldn’t go away. Either make it a bonus feature alongside steps of the fey or improve it
I want to be able to mass charm people within 10 feet of me
WoTC, not every class and subclass feature needs to be combat focused. Stop ignoring the other pillars of D&D.
I have noticed this with the new glamour bard, and that one dnd axed the Roleplay based backgorund features present at the start of 5e, but one dnd is getting rid of social based abilities and features. I might make this it’s own thread but this is an issue. One dnd is defaulting to war gaming like what 4e did, and that’s a problem. Combat isn’t the only pillar of dnd. The other pillars need attention too. Stop neglecting the other pillars. To make an analogy, a structure can only stay up if all pillars are maintained. If only one pillar gets attention… then the other pillars will collapse and the structure is destroyed. Combat is that one pillar, and it’s getting too much attention and the other aspects of dnd is being neglected
I wouldn't hate a bit more enchantment built into the subclass, but I don't see it as strictly necessary. It's not like much was taken away from before, since all Charmed does is give you advantage, so it's not like you were gonna get the mayor to give you the keys to the city or anything.
The claim that the new edition is becoming strictly a war game is kinda ridiculous. Just look at the unique out-of-combat features that Barbarian and Fighter have been given. In 2014, wanna guess how many of those they got? I'll give you a hint: it's between i squared and the lowest natural number.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Here's my take on it. Combat is fairly long. It's slow, and you don't have many options. When it isn't your turn, there's not much for you to do, and even when it IS your turn, until later in the game you are often stuck choosing from the same handful of of options. While there is some allowance for creativity, it is largely limited to your character sheet and the things on it.
When role playing, you are definitely NOT limited to your character sheet. Unless your role-playing is "You gain an audience with the King and begin negotiating to see if he'll give you an army. Roll a Persuasion check to see if it works", then you are probably actually taking on the persona of your character and speaking. Your choice of words and discussion topics are NOT limited by your character sheet! The VAST majority of the time I'm in a social situation, it's all me. Sometimes, I'll use my character sheet to roll a check or use a feature, but I rarely do. During combat, that's almost all I do.
Role playing is fun even without a bunch of supporting game mechanics. Combat is boring without a bunch of supporting game mechanics. Thus, in order for Combat to be elevated to the level of fun of Role Playing, it needs a greater amount of game mechanics to support it. This is especially true at low levels, when this ability comes online.
I'm perfectly fine with trading a situational charm/frighten ability that I might not even use in a social situiation, for additional spells that can do similar things, AND a feature that will mostly likely be useful in every combat.
Honestly, Charm features have always been a bit fiddly. With spells, there's the baseline idea that casting a spell involving S or V components is noticeable, which helps counterbalance the effects. But with Fey Presence it's really up in the air whether or not it's a subtle effect, which can cause hiccups at the table level when someone tries to use it socially. Plus it only lasted for 1 turn, so that's 6 seconds; realistically that's only time for one roll. Not terrible, but Help or Bardic Inspiration can produce about the same effect. And a once per SR attempt to Charm/Frighten a single enemy right in your face for one turn is not a great use of an Action on a still fairly squishy caster. Personally as someone who's been a backrow caster in a long campaign as a Feylock, I've used that feature maybe twice from level 3 to level 9 so far but have made a bunch of social rolls, so I admit I wouldn't mind trading it in for the new option.
“Fey Presence” should not have gone away but rather improved upon (Archfey warlock)
Fey Presence is my favorite feature with archfey warlock because even if it had issues… it is so incredibly fun and is very fitting for archfey warlock
Fey Presence may not have much use in combat but it can be incredibly useful in social situations and is again, thematically fitting.
It may be weak, but charming and enchanting people, or even making them scared, is a fun fantasy to have as a character. And it’s nice to have an ability like this without having to use a spell slot.
I loved the 2014 subclass as it was a warlock subclass based on enchanting. It was an incredible subclass for social encounter based campaigns where you would be persuading, deceiving or investigating more then you were fighting
The misty step features are cool but… fey presence shouldn’t go away. Either make it a bonus feature alongside steps of the fey or improve it
I want to be able to mass charm people within 10 feet of me
WoTC, not every class and subclass feature needs to be combat focused. Stop ignoring the other pillars of D&D.
I have noticed this with the new glamour bard, and that one dnd axed the Roleplay based backgorund features present at the start of 5e, but one dnd is getting rid of social based abilities and features. I might make this it’s own thread but this is an issue. One dnd is defaulting to war gaming like what 4e did, and that’s a problem. Combat isn’t the only pillar of dnd. The other pillars need attention too. Stop neglecting the other pillars. To make an analogy, a structure can only stay up if all pillars are maintained. If only one pillar gets attention… then the other pillars will collapse and the structure is destroyed. Combat is that one pillar, and it’s getting too much attention and the other aspects of dnd is being neglected
Here's my take on it. Combat is fairly long. It's slow, and you don't have many options. When it isn't your turn, there's not much for you to do, and even when it IS your turn, until later in the game you are often stuck choosing from the same handful of of options. While there is some allowance for creativity, it is largely limited to your character sheet and the things on it.
When role playing, you are definitely NOT limited to your character sheet. Unless your role-playing is "You gain an audience with the King and begin negotiating to see if he'll give you an army. Roll a Persuasion check to see if it works", then you are probably actually taking on the persona of your character and speaking. Your choice of words and discussion topics are NOT limited by your character sheet! The VAST majority of the time I'm in a social situation, it's all me. Sometimes, I'll use my character sheet to roll a check or use a feature, but I rarely do. During combat, that's almost all I do.
Role playing is fun even without a bunch of supporting game mechanics. Combat is boring without a bunch of supporting game mechanics. Thus, in order for Combat to be elevated to the level of fun of Role Playing, it needs a greater amount of game mechanics to support it. This is especially true at low levels, when this ability comes online.
I'm perfectly fine with trading a situational charm/frighten ability that I might not even use in a social situiation, for additional spells that can do similar things, AND a feature that will mostly likely be useful in every combat.
Just the opposite. 3 and 3.5 had the absolute bonkers top level of crunch and choice... And combat dragged for hours and DMs hated it. Those that loved it went on to pathfinder and never looked back.
In AD&D and Basic, everyone was squishy AF, you options were the most limited, and combat ABSOLUTELY FLEW....
Less options for combat makes it move faster because you don't have to sit through each player calling out twenty option, referencing 7 manuals, and deciding to roll 20 dice while the DM is checking the rules to make sure everything works as the player says.
I like the new direction because it leaves the psychic stuff to the Great Old One. C'mon now, Misty Step makes warlock a great explorer - peek into a keyhole, misty step in and out, mischief managed.
I like the new direction because it leaves the psychic stuff to the Great Old One. C'mon now, Misty Step makes warlock a great explorer - peek into a keyhole, misty step in and out, mischief managed.
fey aren't explorers. They're illusions, enchantments, and magical trickery.
fey aren't explorers. They're illusions, enchantments, and magical trickery.
They totally are, they're curious and mischievous to a fault.
That's not the same as "explorers" They aren't chasing off into distant lands and exploring the other planes. They generally stick to their own, the material world, and MAYBE the underdark.... Maybe. Because drow and the underdark gnomes, which aren't fey but fey adjacent.
Nevertheless, the reliance of misty step and the changes just utterly destroy 90% of any warlock ideas I was interested in regarding the fey.
I like the new direction because it leaves the psychic stuff to the Great Old One. C'mon now, Misty Step makes warlock a great explorer - peek into a keyhole, misty step in and out, mischief managed.
fey aren't explorers. They're illusions, enchantments, and magical trickery.
Exactly
The new archfey warlock doesn’t play int any of those things
all it does is lazily take Eladrin racial features and slap it on warlock and call it a subclass
Archfey warlock needs to focus on enchantments at the very least, illusions maybe
or at the very least, let fey presence exist alongside the new misty step features
The misty step focus feels fey to me and I think will be very powerful for combat focussed power gaming. I play with power gamers so this is fine for me since I can roleplay the fey part and not have people glare at me for not taking repelling blast.
Under the new rules a fey warlock can lean into Charm Person at low levels and will automatically get Dominate Person later.
I will miss the idea of fey presence, but the mechanics sucked.
Ironically, what I will miss most is being able to speak with beasts at will.
The misty step focus feels fey to me and I think will be very powerful for combat focussed power gaming. I play with power gamers so this is fine for me since I can roleplay the fey part and not have people glare at me for not taking repelling blast.
Under the new rules a fey warlock can lean into Charm Person at low levels and will automatically get Dominate Person later.
I will miss the idea of fey presence, but the mechanics sucked.
Ironically, what I will miss most is being able to speak with beasts at will.
If you haven't checked it out yet, check out friends cantrip in the bastion and cantrip play test. It is no spell slot charm that lasts a short time and cant be done on the same person more than once a day, but it doesn't auto make them know you charmed them or auto make them enemies any more. It fills the role of social fey presence better than fey presence did.
@OP: So are you just going to ignore Quar1on's point about 2024 adding social and exploration features to all the classes that didn't exist in 2014? Or does that not fit your attempted narrative?
Fey Presence is my favorite feature with archfey warlock because even if it had issues… it is so incredibly fun and is very fitting for archfey warlock
Fey Presence may not have much use in combat but it can be incredibly useful in social stuationis and is again, thematically fitting.
Fey Presence was a (lackluster) combat feature, not a social feature. It takes an action to use, lasts 1 round, and needs at least an hour to recharge. How many conversations have you been in that last 6 seconds, especially ones where you need to convince somebody to do something? What effect does it have when your "beguiling and fearsome presence of the fey" wears off and the person you're talking to realizes you did something to them? What happens when you use it on a group and some of them save but others don't? It causes all kinds of headaches if you try to use it as a social pillar feature.
And Warlocks are much better at social and exploration now than in 2014 for multiple reasons. For example, all of them can use rituals now without the Tome Pact or Ritual Caster tax - and you can take Tome on top of that for even more rituals from other classes as well as the other exploration tools Tome gives you like being able to communicate with your entire party across long distances without burning spell slots. 2024 Warlocks can also combine multiple pact boons into a single build now, such as Tome + Chain to get you both the Book and a powerful minion that can scout for you and speak on your behalf. On top of that Warlocks get a level 1 feat to start with and can pick up more via Lessons of the First Ones - so you can grab things like Lucky, Skilled, Magic Initiate, and Musician which will also benefit you in social situations.
TL;DR You're wrong, 2024 Archfey is better at all three pillars than 2014. And I can demonstrate the same for Glamour Bard.
Good point. Friends is better than fey presence as to a single humanoid. I’d still have liked if they boosted fey presence rather than dump it. But they did a great job of making the warlock better, keeping the unique flavor of the class, and making each type of patron powerful with its own flavor.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of charm/mind control features removed. Some folks are very uncomfortable with that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of charm/mind control features removed. Some folks are very uncomfortable with that.
Eh? The new Archfey still has the same Dominate spells as the old one. In fact, they're even more likely to see use now since they're automatically prepared.
Mind control isn't going anywhere in popular fiction and related products. I will grant that checking if there's any strong feelings/boundaries on the issue is probably a good Session 0 talking point for a new group.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of charm/mind control features removed. Some folks are very uncomfortable with that.
Eh? The new Archfey still has the same Dominate spells as the old one. In fact, they're even more likely to see use now since they're automatically prepared.
And we do not know how those spells are going to work moving forward. Things are a bit more touchy-feely these days. It's a move on WOTCs part that I would not be surprised to see.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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“Fey Presence” should not have gone away but rather improved upon (Archfey warlock)
Fey Presence is my favorite feature with archfey warlock because even if it had issues… it is so incredibly fun and is very fitting for archfey warlock
Fey Presence may not have much use in combat but it can be incredibly useful in social situations and is again, thematically fitting.
It may be weak, but charming and enchanting people, or even making them scared, is a fun fantasy to have as a character. And it’s nice to have an ability like this without having to use a spell slot.
I loved the 2014 subclass as it was a warlock subclass based on enchanting. It was an incredible subclass for social encounter based campaigns where you would be persuading, deceiving or investigating more then you were fighting
The misty step features are cool but… fey presence shouldn’t go away. Either make it a bonus feature alongside steps of the fey or improve it
I want to be able to mass charm people within 10 feet of me
WoTC, not every class and subclass feature needs to be combat focused. Stop ignoring the other pillars of D&D.
I have noticed this with the new glamour bard, and that one dnd axed the Roleplay based backgorund features present at the start of 5e, but one dnd is getting rid of social based abilities and features. I might make this it’s own thread but this is an issue. One dnd is defaulting to war gaming like what 4e did, and that’s a problem. Combat isn’t the only pillar of dnd. The other pillars need attention too. Stop neglecting the other pillars. To make an analogy, a structure can only stay up if all pillars are maintained. If only one pillar gets attention… then the other pillars will collapse and the structure is destroyed. Combat is that one pillar, and it’s getting too much attention and the other aspects of dnd is being neglected
I wouldn't hate a bit more enchantment built into the subclass, but I don't see it as strictly necessary. It's not like much was taken away from before, since all Charmed does is give you advantage, so it's not like you were gonna get the mayor to give you the keys to the city or anything.
The claim that the new edition is becoming strictly a war game is kinda ridiculous. Just look at the unique out-of-combat features that Barbarian and Fighter have been given. In 2014, wanna guess how many of those they got? I'll give you a hint: it's between i squared and the lowest natural number.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Here's my take on it. Combat is fairly long. It's slow, and you don't have many options. When it isn't your turn, there's not much for you to do, and even when it IS your turn, until later in the game you are often stuck choosing from the same handful of of options. While there is some allowance for creativity, it is largely limited to your character sheet and the things on it.
When role playing, you are definitely NOT limited to your character sheet. Unless your role-playing is "You gain an audience with the King and begin negotiating to see if he'll give you an army. Roll a Persuasion check to see if it works", then you are probably actually taking on the persona of your character and speaking. Your choice of words and discussion topics are NOT limited by your character sheet! The VAST majority of the time I'm in a social situation, it's all me. Sometimes, I'll use my character sheet to roll a check or use a feature, but I rarely do. During combat, that's almost all I do.
Role playing is fun even without a bunch of supporting game mechanics. Combat is boring without a bunch of supporting game mechanics. Thus, in order for Combat to be elevated to the level of fun of Role Playing, it needs a greater amount of game mechanics to support it. This is especially true at low levels, when this ability comes online.
I'm perfectly fine with trading a situational charm/frighten ability that I might not even use in a social situiation, for additional spells that can do similar things, AND a feature that will mostly likely be useful in every combat.
Honestly, Charm features have always been a bit fiddly. With spells, there's the baseline idea that casting a spell involving S or V components is noticeable, which helps counterbalance the effects. But with Fey Presence it's really up in the air whether or not it's a subtle effect, which can cause hiccups at the table level when someone tries to use it socially. Plus it only lasted for 1 turn, so that's 6 seconds; realistically that's only time for one roll. Not terrible, but Help or Bardic Inspiration can produce about the same effect. And a once per SR attempt to Charm/Frighten a single enemy right in your face for one turn is not a great use of an Action on a still fairly squishy caster. Personally as someone who's been a backrow caster in a long campaign as a Feylock, I've used that feature maybe twice from level 3 to level 9 so far but have made a bunch of social rolls, so I admit I wouldn't mind trading it in for the new option.
*slow clap*
I cannot agree more.
Just the opposite. 3 and 3.5 had the absolute bonkers top level of crunch and choice... And combat dragged for hours and DMs hated it. Those that loved it went on to pathfinder and never looked back.
In AD&D and Basic, everyone was squishy AF, you options were the most limited, and combat ABSOLUTELY FLEW....
Less options for combat makes it move faster because you don't have to sit through each player calling out twenty option, referencing 7 manuals, and deciding to roll 20 dice while the DM is checking the rules to make sure everything works as the player says.
I like the new direction because it leaves the psychic stuff to the Great Old One. C'mon now, Misty Step makes warlock a great explorer - peek into a keyhole, misty step in and out, mischief managed.
fey aren't explorers. They're illusions, enchantments, and magical trickery.
They totally are, they're curious and mischievous to a fault.
Fey are a broad spectrum, so we can't really box them all into categories like this.
That's not the same as "explorers" They aren't chasing off into distant lands and exploring the other planes. They generally stick to their own, the material world, and MAYBE the underdark.... Maybe. Because drow and the underdark gnomes, which aren't fey but fey adjacent.
Nevertheless, the reliance of misty step and the changes just utterly destroy 90% of any warlock ideas I was interested in regarding the fey.
Exactly
The new archfey warlock doesn’t play int any of those things
all it does is lazily take Eladrin racial features and slap it on warlock and call it a subclass
Archfey warlock needs to focus on enchantments at the very least, illusions maybe
or at the very least, let fey presence exist alongside the new misty step features
The misty step focus feels fey to me and I think will be very powerful for combat focussed power gaming. I play with power gamers so this is fine for me since I can roleplay the fey part and not have people glare at me for not taking repelling blast.
Under the new rules a fey warlock can lean into Charm Person at low levels and will automatically get Dominate Person later.
I will miss the idea of fey presence, but the mechanics sucked.
Ironically, what I will miss most is being able to speak with beasts at will.
If you haven't checked it out yet, check out friends cantrip in the bastion and cantrip play test. It is no spell slot charm that lasts a short time and cant be done on the same person more than once a day, but it doesn't auto make them know you charmed them or auto make them enemies any more. It fills the role of social fey presence better than fey presence did.
Fey Presence was a (lackluster) combat feature, not a social feature. It takes an action to use, lasts 1 round, and needs at least an hour to recharge. How many conversations have you been in that last 6 seconds, especially ones where you need to convince somebody to do something? What effect does it have when your "beguiling and fearsome presence of the fey" wears off and the person you're talking to realizes you did something to them? What happens when you use it on a group and some of them save but others don't? It causes all kinds of headaches if you try to use it as a social pillar feature.
And Warlocks are much better at social and exploration now than in 2014 for multiple reasons. For example, all of them can use rituals now without the Tome Pact or Ritual Caster tax - and you can take Tome on top of that for even more rituals from other classes as well as the other exploration tools Tome gives you like being able to communicate with your entire party across long distances without burning spell slots. 2024 Warlocks can also combine multiple pact boons into a single build now, such as Tome + Chain to get you both the Book and a powerful minion that can scout for you and speak on your behalf. On top of that Warlocks get a level 1 feat to start with and can pick up more via Lessons of the First Ones - so you can grab things like Lucky, Skilled, Magic Initiate, and Musician which will also benefit you in social situations.
TL;DR You're wrong, 2024 Archfey is better at all three pillars than 2014. And I can demonstrate the same for Glamour Bard.
Good point. Friends is better than fey presence as to a single humanoid. I’d still have liked if they boosted fey presence rather than dump it. But they did a great job of making the warlock better, keeping the unique flavor of the class, and making each type of patron powerful with its own flavor.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of charm/mind control features removed. Some folks are very uncomfortable with that.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Eh? The new Archfey still has the same Dominate spells as the old one. In fact, they're even more likely to see use now since they're automatically prepared.
Mind control isn't going anywhere in popular fiction and related products. I will grant that checking if there's any strong feelings/boundaries on the issue is probably a good Session 0 talking point for a new group.
And we do not know how those spells are going to work moving forward. Things are a bit more touchy-feely these days. It's a move on WOTCs part that I would not be surprised to see.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha