There's nothing that bothers me, really. It's more that it's not my cup of tea: a pact with an Archfey doesn't spark my imagination like a pact with a Devil or a Lovecraftian entity.
I'm sorry if I seemed harsh or dismissive; English is not my native language so sometimes I cannot express very well the nuances of my thoughts.
There's nothing that bothers me, really. It's more that it's not my cup of tea: a pact with an Archfey doesn't spark my imagination like a pact with a Devil or a Lovecraftian entity.
You were just trying to make it back to your farmstead that night. One of your wagon wheels breaking set you back hours, and by the time you were back on the road, it was so dark that your lantern barely let you see ahead of the horse. Your eyes were growing heavier, and it was hard to stay awake. That's when you heard them. The music coming from the old forest that your grandmother warned you about. The faint laughter and sounds of revelry. Light and dancing shadows coming through between the trees. You couldn't contain your curiosity, even in your exhausted state, and left your wagon to just take a small peek. Just a peek.
From your hiding place in the bushes you saw the fair folk celebrating their lady, cavorting around a bonfire and feasting. You hadn't eaten since noon, and the faint complaining of your stomach caused the entire gathering to pause and look your way.
"Ah, a visitor! How unexpected!" Calls the lady from her ivy throne. "Come! Eat. Drink. Be merry!"
And you did, forgetting the one rule your grandmother had taught you about the fair folk. If you accept their hospitality, you now belong to them.
There's nothing that bothers me, really. It's more that it's not my cup of tea: a pact with an Archfey doesn't spark my imagination like a pact with a Devil or a Lovecraftian entity.
You were just trying to make it back to your farmstead that night. One of your wagon wheels breaking set you back hours, and by the time you were back on the road, it was so dark that your lantern barely let you see ahead of the horse. Your eyes were growing heavier, and it was hard to stay awake. That's when you heard them. The music coming from the old forest that your grandmother warned you about. The faint laughter and sounds of revelry. Light and dancing shadows coming through between the trees. You couldn't contain your curiosity, even in your exhausted state, and left your wagon to just take a small peek. Just a peek.
From your hiding place in the bushes you saw the fair folk celebrating their lady, cavorting around a bonfire and feasting. You hadn't eaten since noon, and the faint complaining of your stomach caused the entire gathering to pause and look your way.
"Ah, a visitor! How unexpected!" Calls the lady from her ivy throne. "Come! Eat. Drink. Be merry!"
And you did, forgetting the one rule your grandmother had taught you about the fair folk. If you accept their hospitality, you now belong to them.
There's nothing that bothers me, really. It's more that it's not my cup of tea: a pact with an Archfey doesn't spark my imagination like a pact with a Devil or a Lovecraftian entity.
You were just trying to make it back to your farmstead that night. One of your wagon wheels breaking set you back hours, and by the time you were back on the road, it was so dark that your lantern barely let you see ahead of the horse. Your eyes were growing heavier, and it was hard to stay awake. That's when you heard them. The music coming from the old forest that your grandmother warned you about. The faint laughter and sounds of revelry. Light and dancing shadows coming through between the trees. You couldn't contain your curiosity, even in your exhausted state, and left your wagon to just take a small peek. Just a peek.
From your hiding place in the bushes you saw the fair folk celebrating their lady, cavorting around a bonfire and feasting. You hadn't eaten since noon, and the faint complaining of your stomach caused the entire gathering to pause and look your way.
"Ah, a visitor! How unexpected!" Calls the lady from her ivy throne. "Come! Eat. Drink. Be merry!"
And you did, forgetting the one rule your grandmother had taught you about the fair folk. If you accept their hospitality, you now belong to them.
It is good... but none of that is misty step, and all of it is illusion and charm. (Edit: enchantment instead of charm, though charm is part of that)
Can't we just handwave that as the fae and fae-adjacent warlocks are just not entirely there, one foot in Arcadia and one on the material, that they're just one (misty) step away from showing up wherever they want? :)
Can't we just handwave that as the fae and fae-adjacent warlocks are just not entirely there, one foot in Arcadia and one on the material, that they're just one (misty) step away from showing up wherever they want? :)
I mean you CAN, but for people like myself and some others, we're pretty upset the majority of the flavor that we want from archfey is gone and instead are given a half a**Ed explanation for their powers. Why do you need teleporty guy to be fey and not their own subclass?
I mean you CAN, but for people like myself and some others, we're pretty upset the majority of the flavor that we want from archfey is gone and instead are given a half a**Ed explanation for their powers. Why do you need teleporty guy to be fey and not their own subclass?
Do you mind if I ask how the Archfey flavour was changed for you? The blurby bit is still mostly the same, right? And several of the subclass features are reminiscent of the old, only expanded upon. The big changes that I can see is that Fey Presence was replaced with Steps of the Fey, and Dark Delirium made way for Betwitching Magic.
Do you feel that most if not all of the effects of Fey Presence can be regained by the Enthrall spell, available at the same level the warlock would've gained that trait? If you want to keep that flavour of the class, that is? And Dark Delirium (a single-target ability that charms or fears, making the target believe they're lost in a dark realm) could maaaybe be emulated with Hold Monster or Dominate Person? I know, it's not a perfect match, but the Venn diagram of application overlaps a bit, right? :)
So, and this is just my point of view, a lot of what is ostensibly lost can be regained with a bit of work. Or, do you feel differently?
I mean you CAN, but for people like myself and some others, we're pretty upset the majority of the flavor that we want from archfey is gone and instead are given a half a**Ed explanation for their powers. Why do you need teleporty guy to be fey and not their own subclass?
Do you mind if I ask how the Archfey flavour was changed for you? The blurby bit is still mostly the same, right? And several of the subclass features are reminiscent of the old, only expanded upon. The big changes that I can see is that Fey Presence was replaced with Steps of the Fey, and Dark Delirium made way for Betwitching Magic.
Do you feel that most if not all of the effects of Fey Presence can be regained by the Enthrall spell, available at the same level the warlock would've gained that trait? If you want to keep that flavour of the class, that is? And Dark Delirium (a single-target ability that charms or fears, making the target believe they're lost in a dark realm) could maaaybe be emulated with Hold Monster or Dominate Person? I know, it's not a perfect match, but the Venn diagram of application overlaps a bit, right? :)
So, and this is just my point of view, a lot of what is ostensibly lost can be regained with a bit of work. Or, do you feel differently?
It's a shoddy work around because you're talking about spells which are an INSANELY limited resource for the warlock having to be expended for at will features.
Plus, it's kind of an illustration as to why I'm happy the subclass spells are just given now instead of an extra choice. When they were an extra choice and not a feature, there were just too many necessary things to get that you didn't choose them. So it's not JUST that I need to use a spell slot to cast enthrall, but I also have to sacrifice another spell choice that might be ostensibly better to learn the enthrall spell.
It's like how the invocations got rid of detect magic as an at will. It now forces a worse choice which now means that spell will rarely if ever be used. You may as well just remove it from the warlock spell list and toss in another blade-lock buff. Which is what they seem to be pushing for, and that means rather than giving options you're killing a class.
yeah, I gotta say I really don't like them taking away the at will invocations and replacing them with spells...
I mean the warlock only has 2 spell slots for the 1st half of their careers, I'm not wasting them on detect magic or speak with animals, even if I did that's just one use vs. unlimited when they were at will invocations
I think the warlock and monk are giving them fits on how to improve without messing them up further.
I mean you CAN, but for people like myself and some others, we're pretty upset the majority of the flavor that we want from archfey is gone and instead are given a half a**Ed explanation for their powers. Why do you need teleporty guy to be fey and not their own subclass?
Do you mind if I ask how the Archfey flavour was changed for you? The blurby bit is still mostly the same, right? And several of the subclass features are reminiscent of the old, only expanded upon. The big changes that I can see is that Fey Presence was replaced with Steps of the Fey, and Dark Delirium made way for Betwitching Magic.
Do you feel that most if not all of the effects of Fey Presence can be regained by the Enthrall spell, available at the same level the warlock would've gained that trait? If you want to keep that flavour of the class, that is? And Dark Delirium (a single-target ability that charms or fears, making the target believe they're lost in a dark realm) could maaaybe be emulated with Hold Monster or Dominate Person? I know, it's not a perfect match, but the Venn diagram of application overlaps a bit, right? :)
So, and this is just my point of view, a lot of what is ostensibly lost can be regained with a bit of work. Or, do you feel differently?
I think the biggest issue is it is TOO much on misty step. if it was just fey presence for fey step I think people would feel different. Misty step HAS been linked and associated with fey creatures for quite a while. It is just Dropping someone in an illusory realm and charming them is really missed. The way DD was worded the illusory realm happened regardless it just was a save for the charm or fear portion. I used it almost like a short duration waking dream spell.
As a reminder for the people saying detect magic and speak with animals are worthless, warlock can cast rituals in this UA and the invocations would be next to worthless.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Miley Cyrus music should be outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
yeah, I gotta say I really don't like them taking away the at will invocations and replacing them with spells...
I mean the warlock only has 2 spell slots for the 1st half of their careers, I'm not wasting them on detect magic or speak with animals, even if I did that's just one use vs. unlimited when they were at will invocations
I think the warlock and monk are giving them fits on how to improve without messing them up further.
You remember they also granted ritual casting to everyone, so you can take those and cast them as a ritual and not use a slot.
I think a big thing people are missing here is that at every level you have 1 to 2 extra spell choices because you get your patron spells free so you aren't using your old selections on those spells anymore, and people were probably taking 1 or 2 of those before anyway.
I think the biggest issue is it is TOO much on misty step. if it was just fey presence for fey step I think people would feel different. Misty step HAS been linked and associated with fey creatures for quite a while. It is just Dropping someone in an illusory realm and charming them is really missed. The way DD was worded the illusory realm happened regardless it just was a save for the charm or fear portion. I used it almost like a short duration waking dream spell.
Yeah, I sort of miss that as an actual spell. A soft-control personal nightmare phantasm thing going on. Sure, there are Phantasmal Force, but it doesn't really scratch that itch. What mid-level spells do we have that could induce a stupor like that? Confusion? Kinda, but not really.
I agree that Dark Delirium have a very particular feel to it that's hard to emulate with the spells we have right now. Mental Prison comes close, but it's all about damage and it is 6th level, too. Dark Delirium is practically the reversed form of True Seeing.
... eh, details :)
Returning to the Archfey misty step thing, though, despite whatever you may feel about that spell in particular - how do you feel about subclasses with a more clearly defined common thread throughout their design? Features that are interlinked and build upon one another?
Or, do you feel it is better that each feature stands completely on its own, making the subclass more of a thematic grab-bag sort of deal?
As a reminder for the people saying detect magic and speak with animals are worthless, warlock can cast rituals in this UA and the invocations would be next to worthless.
I think a big thing people are missing here is that at every level you have 1 to 2 extra spell choices because you get your patron spells free so you aren't using your old selections on those spells anymore, and people were probably taking 1 or 2 of those before anyway.
Now, if only rituals didn't take 10 minutes to perform, that would be just awesomecakes. That squirrel you're trying to interview about their input on a ballad you just sang, they're going to scurry faster than you can ritual.
Hmm. Maybe if rituals instead took 1 minute per spell level to perform? Ooor rituals, cast as a normal action, never consumed spell-slots if used outside of initiative? Like the old Take 10 mechanic of "you succeed at a baseline level if you're not under undue stress"?
yeah both ways are free of spell slots, but rituals do take an extra 10 minutes on top of the casting time, whereas at will invocations were the bomb
I need to reread the archfey and the whole misty step thing, but if the gist of it is they get to teleport all over the place like nightcrawler then I'm all for it... can we add another 100 misty steps to it somehow (no joke)
I want to misty step when I'm standing in a crowded room not doing a single thing and suddenly I make a funny noise accompanied by a stink.
While I can understand other folks disappointments on the changes to the Archfey patron subclass, personally I was never really tempted to play the old version, but am very intrigued by the new, and would certainly be interested in it. I also would be quite interested in playing a GOOlock now, as the only reason why I didn't play one up to now is that the old version's features were weak and not sufficiently interesting. Celestial Warlock has never really been my cup of tea then or now.
As a reminder for the people saying detect magic and speak with animals are worthless, warlock can cast rituals in this UA and the invocations would be next to worthless.
A ritual casts and at will aren't the same. I can cast stuff at will that means it's an awkward on. I can "at will" detect magic as I go from room to room in a dungeon without having to do the ritual and take the rest/time to cast. I could "at will" speak with animals and literally talk to every animal I meet because it's always on.
As for what I'd do differently? I'd keep the fey presence. It's another flavorful always on ability, and the distance is so small that it isn't a broken feature (if it was 20-40 feet it would be absurdly overused). Misty step around 6-ish is good. Later on not sure, but to be honest, I wasn't upset with the old version.
As for the class, I would also allow for pact of the chain to have a summon based on patron. Aberration for old one, celestial for celestial, and so on. It would be an invocation available around level 14 and require the chain pact as pre-req's.
I'd also allow for 2 extra slots for the class, and at certain levels and extra spells slot as well for pact of the tome as it leans into the full caster.
Pact of the blade would receive a few revisions so that some.of the pre-req's would push for it to stand more on its own than be abused for multiclass dips (not sure what they would be)
I think a few more slots would do a lot to give the warlock some breathing room and for the time and the chain the later invocations would give a fair incentive while encouraging each pact to.have it's own flavor as well without being totally broken.
What about the flavour bothers you?
It's one dimensional and only focuses on teleportation, which is arguably one of the traits least associated with the fey traditionally.
Its overreliance on misty step also forces some builds over others. I.e. blaster and blade.
There's nothing that bothers me, really. It's more that it's not my cup of tea: a pact with an Archfey doesn't spark my imagination like a pact with a Devil or a Lovecraftian entity.
I'm sorry if I seemed harsh or dismissive; English is not my native language so sometimes I cannot express very well the nuances of my thoughts.
Go Vegan!
You were just trying to make it back to your farmstead that night. One of your wagon wheels breaking set you back hours, and by the time you were back on the road, it was so dark that your lantern barely let you see ahead of the horse. Your eyes were growing heavier, and it was hard to stay awake. That's when you heard them. The music coming from the old forest that your grandmother warned you about. The faint laughter and sounds of revelry. Light and dancing shadows coming through between the trees. You couldn't contain your curiosity, even in your exhausted state, and left your wagon to just take a small peek. Just a peek.
From your hiding place in the bushes you saw the fair folk celebrating their lady, cavorting around a bonfire and feasting. You hadn't eaten since noon, and the faint complaining of your stomach caused the entire gathering to pause and look your way.
"Ah, a visitor! How unexpected!" Calls the lady from her ivy throne. "Come! Eat. Drink. Be merry!"
And you did, forgetting the one rule your grandmother had taught you about the fair folk. If you accept their hospitality, you now belong to them.
That's good, I like it.
Go Vegan!
It is good... but none of that is misty step, and all of it is illusion and charm. (Edit: enchantment instead of charm, though charm is part of that)
Can't we just handwave that as the fae and fae-adjacent warlocks are just not entirely there, one foot in Arcadia and one on the material, that they're just one (misty) step away from showing up wherever they want? :)
I mean you CAN, but for people like myself and some others, we're pretty upset the majority of the flavor that we want from archfey is gone and instead are given a half a**Ed explanation for their powers. Why do you need teleporty guy to be fey and not their own subclass?
Do you mind if I ask how the Archfey flavour was changed for you? The blurby bit is still mostly the same, right? And several of the subclass features are reminiscent of the old, only expanded upon. The big changes that I can see is that Fey Presence was replaced with Steps of the Fey, and Dark Delirium made way for Betwitching Magic.
Do you feel that most if not all of the effects of Fey Presence can be regained by the Enthrall spell, available at the same level the warlock would've gained that trait? If you want to keep that flavour of the class, that is? And Dark Delirium (a single-target ability that charms or fears, making the target believe they're lost in a dark realm) could maaaybe be emulated with Hold Monster or Dominate Person? I know, it's not a perfect match, but the Venn diagram of application overlaps a bit, right? :)
So, and this is just my point of view, a lot of what is ostensibly lost can be regained with a bit of work. Or, do you feel differently?
It's a shoddy work around because you're talking about spells which are an INSANELY limited resource for the warlock having to be expended for at will features.
Plus, it's kind of an illustration as to why I'm happy the subclass spells are just given now instead of an extra choice. When they were an extra choice and not a feature, there were just too many necessary things to get that you didn't choose them. So it's not JUST that I need to use a spell slot to cast enthrall, but I also have to sacrifice another spell choice that might be ostensibly better to learn the enthrall spell.
It's like how the invocations got rid of detect magic as an at will. It now forces a worse choice which now means that spell will rarely if ever be used. You may as well just remove it from the warlock spell list and toss in another blade-lock buff. Which is what they seem to be pushing for, and that means rather than giving options you're killing a class.
Okay-dokey :)
I can totally see that point of view (albeit with maybe not as much finality), and that's fair. How would you have done it differently?
yeah, I gotta say I really don't like them taking away the at will invocations and replacing them with spells...
I mean the warlock only has 2 spell slots for the 1st half of their careers, I'm not wasting them on detect magic or speak with animals, even if I did that's just one use vs. unlimited when they were at will invocations
I think the warlock and monk are giving them fits on how to improve without messing them up further.
I think the biggest issue is it is TOO much on misty step. if it was just fey presence for fey step I think people would feel different. Misty step HAS been linked and associated with fey creatures for quite a while. It is just Dropping someone in an illusory realm and charming them is really missed. The way DD was worded the illusory realm happened regardless it just was a save for the charm or fear portion. I used it almost like a short duration waking dream spell.
As a reminder for the people saying detect magic and speak with animals are worthless, warlock can cast rituals in this UA and the invocations would be next to worthless.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Miley Cyrus music should be outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
You remember they also granted ritual casting to everyone, so you can take those and cast them as a ritual and not use a slot.
I think a big thing people are missing here is that at every level you have 1 to 2 extra spell choices because you get your patron spells free so you aren't using your old selections on those spells anymore, and people were probably taking 1 or 2 of those before anyway.
Yeah, I sort of miss that as an actual spell. A soft-control personal nightmare phantasm thing going on. Sure, there are Phantasmal Force, but it doesn't really scratch that itch. What mid-level spells do we have that could induce a stupor like that? Confusion? Kinda, but not really.
I agree that Dark Delirium have a very particular feel to it that's hard to emulate with the spells we have right now. Mental Prison comes close, but it's all about damage and it is 6th level, too. Dark Delirium is practically the reversed form of True Seeing.
... eh, details :)
Returning to the Archfey misty step thing, though, despite whatever you may feel about that spell in particular - how do you feel about subclasses with a more clearly defined common thread throughout their design? Features that are interlinked and build upon one another?
Or, do you feel it is better that each feature stands completely on its own, making the subclass more of a thematic grab-bag sort of deal?
Now, if only rituals didn't take 10 minutes to perform, that would be just awesomecakes. That squirrel you're trying to interview about their input on a ballad you just sang, they're going to scurry faster than you can ritual.
Hmm. Maybe if rituals instead took 1 minute per spell level to perform? Ooor rituals, cast as a normal action, never consumed spell-slots if used outside of initiative? Like the old Take 10 mechanic of "you succeed at a baseline level if you're not under undue stress"?
yeah both ways are free of spell slots, but rituals do take an extra 10 minutes on top of the casting time, whereas at will invocations were the bomb
I need to reread the archfey and the whole misty step thing, but if the gist of it is they get to teleport all over the place like nightcrawler then I'm all for it... can we add another 100 misty steps to it somehow (no joke)
I want to misty step when I'm standing in a crowded room not doing a single thing and suddenly I make a funny noise accompanied by a stink.
While I can understand other folks disappointments on the changes to the Archfey patron subclass, personally I was never really tempted to play the old version, but am very intrigued by the new, and would certainly be interested in it. I also would be quite interested in playing a GOOlock now, as the only reason why I didn't play one up to now is that the old version's features were weak and not sufficiently interesting. Celestial Warlock has never really been my cup of tea then or now.
A ritual casts and at will aren't the same. I can cast stuff at will that means it's an awkward on. I can "at will" detect magic as I go from room to room in a dungeon without having to do the ritual and take the rest/time to cast. I could "at will" speak with animals and literally talk to every animal I meet because it's always on.
As for what I'd do differently? I'd keep the fey presence. It's another flavorful always on ability, and the distance is so small that it isn't a broken feature (if it was 20-40 feet it would be absurdly overused). Misty step around 6-ish is good. Later on not sure, but to be honest, I wasn't upset with the old version.
As for the class, I would also allow for pact of the chain to have a summon based on patron. Aberration for old one, celestial for celestial, and so on. It would be an invocation available around level 14 and require the chain pact as pre-req's.
I'd also allow for 2 extra slots for the class, and at certain levels and extra spells slot as well for pact of the tome as it leans into the full caster.
Pact of the blade would receive a few revisions so that some.of the pre-req's would push for it to stand more on its own than be abused for multiclass dips (not sure what they would be)
I think a few more slots would do a lot to give the warlock some breathing room and for the time and the chain the later invocations would give a fair incentive while encouraging each pact to.have it's own flavor as well without being totally broken.