There needs to be some measure of balance to the idea of scamming forbidden secrets from the multiverse that doesn’t just come with dropping a nuke and taking a nap.
Huh? It makes perfect sense to me: You uncover secret magics you barely understand, granted to you by a mysterious patron. You unleash the raw eldritch horror, feeling the strange alien magic rip through you, using your body as a channel, a connection between something far larger and greater than you. Are you truly in control? Can you tell? As the spell completes you feel the magic fade, leaving a hole in your soul where it has burned through you. You gasp, regaining control of yourself after the burst of power, wondering whether one day you will be powerful to wield that magic yourself, as exhaustion seeps into your bones numbing you to the lingering tingle that ties you to this strange entity.
Agile... that's how you get possessed you know. And brain worms from another dimension.
I think the chance of multi-classing just to stock up on low-level spell slots would have to be a consideration. I think any feature that grants these spell slots should at least have a level limitation of 3. Overall, though, I think I still prefer to just have invocations that grant spell slots and nothing else. If I were to create it, I think I would do it this way...
Spell Versatility - Prerequisite: 3rd level
You gain two level 1 spell slots and one level 2 spell slot. These spell slots recover after completing a Long Rest.
Then, at 7th level you can take one that gives you one level 3 and one level 2 slot, then at 9th level you get one 4th level, one 3rd level, and one second level.
At that point you would still have less slots than a dedicated caster, but enough slots for utility casting. At that point your Pact slots are 5th level, and you can access higher level spells through Mystic Arcanums. And each higher level invocation doesn't necessarily require that you take the lower level invocation... just that your Warlock level is high enough. So anyone who just wants a little extra versatility with their low level spells might just go for the first invocation... someone might even drop the low level invocations and just prioritize whichever one gives them higher spell slots. But I think the main thing I prefer is ideas that lean into the customizability of Warlocks.
It’s better to give Spellcasting levels than spell slots. That’s the problem I have with Pact of the tome. Since it gives a spell slot a one level dip Warlock/Sorcerer has three 1st level spell slots and a pact magic spell slot as a 2nd level character. It’s a weird spell slot, now imagine invocations that just give more spell slots then you multiclass and have 6 1st level spell slots. It’s awkward considering how everything else in the game functions. It’s not necessarily broken, but given enough time someone will think of a way to exploit that.
I did it this way to keep it simple for multi classing and to use a preexisting table. If you take all the invocations you would have slots equal to 1/3 caster or 7th level Wizard. I originally did it with 1 level per invocation but that consumed too many invocations to even be fun. I intentionally made it so you don’t have to take them in order or you could swap out for a better one. I’m sure there is probably better language for all of this.
Awakened Power prerequisite: 3rd level Warlock Your patron awakens powers within you giving access to spell slots similar to a Wizard. You count as having 1 level in the Wizard class for calculating spell slots only. Spell Slots. The Wizard table shows how many Spell Slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended Spell Slots when you finish a Long Rest.
Awakened Power Improvement prerequisite: 5th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain an additional level in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 2 prerequisite: 9th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 2 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 3 prerequisite: 18th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 3 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Just MC into Sorcerer.
That's what I have been doing to 'fix' pact magic. MC into sorc, bard and wiz variously to pick up spell slots because pact magic is inadequate, and invocations are not well enough developed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
And if someone wants an entirely crunch-free, narrative only Story For The Ages, the best way to get it is to read a book.
No, a book is entirely non-interactive. You can have role play with no crunch and it is still distinct from reading a book because an RP is interactive and more akin to a writers room where you and your friends are creatively inventing a story together. I mean if you just watch children playing together in the wilds in a playground that is exactly what they are doing. I played all kinds of ways with friends with basically no rules or "crunch" when I was a kid. It's not a "game" but it's still a fun social experience that is clearly distinct from passively reading a book or watching TV.
Though I do have a theory that most D&D "content" is aimed at crunch-only folks (and they are the ones in the forums) because those people are the people craving content because they don't have the opportunity to play for real.
100% disagree. I play with two groups currently, and I have BEEN playing since the 80s. Back in the day, all our games were hack and slash. RP was something that we did, but it was never central to the game. It's still not central to the game. You don't get to decide that our fun is wrong or bad.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I think the chance of multi-classing just to stock up on low-level spell slots would have to be a consideration. I think any feature that grants these spell slots should at least have a level limitation of 3. Overall, though, I think I still prefer to just have invocations that grant spell slots and nothing else. If I were to create it, I think I would do it this way...
Spell Versatility - Prerequisite: 3rd level
You gain two level 1 spell slots and one level 2 spell slot. These spell slots recover after completing a Long Rest.
Then, at 7th level you can take one that gives you one level 3 and one level 2 slot, then at 9th level you get one 4th level, one 3rd level, and one second level.
At that point you would still have less slots than a dedicated caster, but enough slots for utility casting. At that point your Pact slots are 5th level, and you can access higher level spells through Mystic Arcanums. And each higher level invocation doesn't necessarily require that you take the lower level invocation... just that your Warlock level is high enough. So anyone who just wants a little extra versatility with their low level spells might just go for the first invocation... someone might even drop the low level invocations and just prioritize whichever one gives them higher spell slots. But I think the main thing I prefer is ideas that lean into the customizability of Warlocks.
It’s better to give Spellcasting levels than spell slots. That’s the problem I have with Pact of the tome. Since it gives a spell slot a one level dip Warlock/Sorcerer has three 1st level spell slots and a pact magic spell slot as a 2nd level character. It’s a weird spell slot, now imagine invocations that just give more spell slots then you multiclass and have 6 1st level spell slots. It’s awkward considering how everything else in the game functions. It’s not necessarily broken, but given enough time someone will think of a way to exploit that.
That's a very good point. I think the way to restrict this is to add limitations to them... I think if I had reword it, it would say:
Spell Versatility - Prerequisite: 3rd level
You gain two level 1 spell slots and one level 2 spell slot. This feature cannot increase your number of level 1 spell slots higher than 4, or your level 2 spell slots higher than 3. These spell slots recover after completing a Long Rest.
Then add similar limitations to higher level slots (although I do like the idea suggested earlier that this should be limited just to 1st and 2nd level slots). That way it will give a single-class Warlock a solid increase in lower-level slots for utility and a little more spellcasting versatility, but can't be used as a multiclass dip just to build up a bunch of extra spell slots.
I think the chance of multi-classing just to stock up on low-level spell slots would have to be a consideration. I think any feature that grants these spell slots should at least have a level limitation of 3. Overall, though, I think I still prefer to just have invocations that grant spell slots and nothing else. If I were to create it, I think I would do it this way...
Spell Versatility - Prerequisite: 3rd level
You gain two level 1 spell slots and one level 2 spell slot. These spell slots recover after completing a Long Rest.
Then, at 7th level you can take one that gives you one level 3 and one level 2 slot, then at 9th level you get one 4th level, one 3rd level, and one second level.
At that point you would still have less slots than a dedicated caster, but enough slots for utility casting. At that point your Pact slots are 5th level, and you can access higher level spells through Mystic Arcanums. And each higher level invocation doesn't necessarily require that you take the lower level invocation... just that your Warlock level is high enough. So anyone who just wants a little extra versatility with their low level spells might just go for the first invocation... someone might even drop the low level invocations and just prioritize whichever one gives them higher spell slots. But I think the main thing I prefer is ideas that lean into the customizability of Warlocks.
It’s better to give Spellcasting levels than spell slots. That’s the problem I have with Pact of the tome. Since it gives a spell slot a one level dip Warlock/Sorcerer has three 1st level spell slots and a pact magic spell slot as a 2nd level character. It’s a weird spell slot, now imagine invocations that just give more spell slots then you multiclass and have 6 1st level spell slots. It’s awkward considering how everything else in the game functions. It’s not necessarily broken, but given enough time someone will think of a way to exploit that.
That's a very good point. I think the way to restrict this is to add limitations to them... I think if I had reword it, it would say:
Spell Versatility - Prerequisite: 3rd level
You gain two level 1 spell slots and one level 2 spell slot. This feature cannot increase your number of level 1 spell slots higher than 4, or your level 2 spell slots higher than 3. These spell slots recover after completing a Long Rest.
Then add similar limitations to higher level slots (although I do like the idea suggested earlier that this should be limited just to 1st and 2nd level slots). That way it will give a single-class Warlock a solid increase in lower-level slots for utility and a little more spellcasting versatility, but can't be used as a multiclass dip just to build up a bunch of extra spell slots.
Those extra first level spell slots are not a problem at higher levels as they are useful for only niche spells such as shield, which is problematic on it's own. 6 first level magic missiles? Not a problem. 6 sleeps? Not a problem. 6 burning hands? Again, not a problem. At higher levels nobody's going to cast those anyways.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I feel like the only spells that could really get abused by an over-abundance of level 1 slots would probably be Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs. I feel like the threat of Silvery Barbs on its own is enough to make this an invocation that could be hated by DMs.
Also these are spell slots so they could be more sorcery points, smite spells, or as Transmorpher said silvery barbs. Possibly the 2nd most power creep spell right after healing spirit.
did a lot of things right and was an excellent game
Not sure where you are hearing that, every review / discussion I've heard about it is that it was mind-numblingly boring.
oh, no no no. i remember it being like playing a world of warcraft dungeon but in the same room with your friends: tactical and engaging and intuitive. it probably helped in my case that this was my first foray into miniatures and maps with D&D and it was love at first fight. on the other hand, my friends had an immediate strong reaction to the 5ft-squares and the minis and the everybody having some spell or ability every single turn ("when everyone's super... no one will be!") best described with an angry poop emoji, if we'd had those back then. also the emoji would be moistening some previously crisp twenty dollar bills.
...so mixed feelings, is how i'd put it.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
And if someone wants an entirely crunch-free, narrative only Story For The Ages, the best way to get it is to read a book.
No, a book is entirely non-interactive. You can have role play with no crunch and it is still distinct from reading a book because an RP is interactive and more akin to a writers room where you and your friends are creatively inventing a story together. I mean if you just watch children playing together in the wilds in a playground that is exactly what they are doing. I played all kinds of ways with friends with basically no rules or "crunch" when I was a kid. It's not a "game" but it's still a fun social experience that is clearly distinct from passively reading a book or watching TV.
Though I do have a theory that most D&D "content" is aimed at crunch-only folks (and they are the ones in the forums) because those people are the people craving content because they don't have the opportunity to play for real.
100% disagree. I play with two groups currently, and I have BEEN playing since the 80s. Back in the day, all our games were hack and slash. RP was something that we did, but it was never central to the game. It's still not central to the game. You don't get to decide that our fun is wrong or bad.
Different tables syndrome. 90's for me, older relatives DM'ing. They had hack and slash but were also really into the books and the lore and so on. Well, one was, the other was really into war games.
It's not my cup of tea, but as long as I don't have to be dragged into the tedium of it, I'm not going t knock on someone's fun.
As for your brand of fun, I feel like this comment was because Yurei is being Yurei, and everything's a personal offense, and so on, and they have to dial everything up to 11.
Also, it could just be the idea that we're all asking for something because we're not actually playing...
Hell, most of the time I'm on here is just to kill time.
I have a little brother (in his early 20's) like that. I'm kinda used to it (Yurei that is...)
i would strongly prefer ritual casting to spell slots. ritual casting is often dismissed as having too many restrictions, but that's everyone else's ritual casting. a warlock takes shortcuts, makes arcane trades, and calls in inter-planar favors. it's like harry potter finding the half-blood prince's book but using the notes in the margin explicitly to trigger 'side effects' of potions crafting mistakes that kludge together a desired result. but, greater chance of hellfire and tentacles. shield and silvery barbs aside, rituals are just more witchy, more seeking answers outside of the classroom.
there are ways to make a 1 or 2 minute [+cast time] 'short-cut ritual' work with every Warlock spell of 1st-, 2nd-, and probably even 3rd- level. yes, even 'attack' spells. anyway, the two necessary caveats are 1.) spells cast at a target create a connection they can sense and follow. attack spells in particular channel a malice that will turn a target quickly hostile and lead them to you in time to ruin the ritual. or, perhaps worse, find cover and exit spell range. and 2.) if the warlock becomes invisible, silenced, or leaves the ritual area then concentration breaks and the ritual fails. so, yes maybe you can cast fly or invisible on a friend, but you must stay behind and keep it up. also if you don't keep it up someone's going to have a bad day. ooh, tension! and, hey, if that's no fun then spend a pact slot, stingy.
keep it to something like PB uses per long rest, maybe allow a use of Magical Cunning to return one ritual use. of course then they're functionally just out-of-combat-only pact slots. which, hmm, i guess i'm fine with.
That being said…the Lessons invocation opens up a new avenue of magical dicking around. As some have pointed out, you could use it to nab Magic Initiate, Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, Gift of the X Dragon, etc. this SCREAMS occultist and was possibly one of the better ideas they went with. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the revised warlock, it felt a little closer to what I imagined. But then I saw the recent version, had a bit of time to think on it, and now I have a lvl 10 Fiendlock sitting in my back pocket with damn near the magical versatility of a full caster just by selecting feats and a few invocations. Here’s the list
Feats:
L7: Lessons of the First ones: Fey Touched - Misty Step, Bane
Feats:
L4: Rune Shaper - Comprehend Languages, Entangle, Fog Cloud
L8: Shadow Touched - Invisibility, Disguise Self
Is it a bit cheesy? Yes, yes it is. Does it work? Yes it does.
Of the feats you listed only Magic Initiate (the UA version of that feat) can be picked through Lessons of the 1st Ones. The other feats aren't listed in the UA, which is why they're balanced around => level 4 instead of reworked or given high prerequisites.
i would strongly prefer ritual casting to spell slots. ritual casting is often dismissed as having too many restrictions, but that's everyone else's ritual casting. shield and silvery barbs aside, rituals are just more witchy, more seeking answers outside of the classroom. a warlock takes shortcuts, makes arcane trades, and calls in inter-planar favors. it's like harry potter finding the half-blood prince's book but using the notes in the margin explicitly to trigger 'side effects' of potions crafting mistakes that kludge together a desired result. also, greater chance of hellfire and tentacles.
there are ways to make a 1 or 2 minute [+cast time] 'short-cut ritual' work with every Warlock spell of 1st-, 2nd-, and probably even 3rd- level. yes, even 'attack' spells. anyway, the two necessary caveats are 1.) spells cast at a target create a connection they can sense and follow. attack spells in particular channel a malice that will turn a target quickly hostile and lead them to you in time to ruin the ritual. or, perhaps worse, find cover and exit spell range. and 2.) if the warlock becomes invisible, [Tooltip Not Found], or leaves the ritual area then concentration breaks and the ritual fails. so, yes maybe you can cast fly or invisible on a friend, but you must stay behind and keep it up. also if you don't keep it up someone's going to have a bad day. ooh, tension! and, hey, if that's no fun then spend a pact slot, stingy.
keep it to something like PB uses per long rest, maybe allow a use of Magical Cunning to return one ritual use. of course then they're functionally just out-of-combat-only pact slots. which, hmm, i guess i'm fine with.
I'm not trying to add more to the mix, but if ritual spells could be learned like wizards learned spells and still has to cast them with ritual time requirements and such, it would be a nice boost, and certain rituals as at wills invocations could still coexist.
That being said…the Lessons invocation opens up a new avenue of magical dicking around. As some have pointed out, you could use it to nab Magic Initiate, Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, Gift of the X Dragon, etc. this SCREAMS occultist and was possibly one of the better ideas they went with. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the revised warlock, it felt a little closer to what I imagined. But then I saw the recent version, had a bit of time to think on it, and now I have a lvl 10 Fiendlock sitting in my back pocket with damn near the magical versatility of a full caster just by selecting feats and a few invocations. Here’s the list
Feats:
L7: Lessons of the First ones: Fey Touched - Misty Step, Bane
Feats:
L4: Rune Shaper - Comprehend Languages, Entangle, Fog Cloud
L8: Shadow Touched - Invisibility, Disguise Self
Is it a bit cheesy? Yes, yes it is. Does it work? Yes it does.
Of the feats you listed only Magic Initiate (the UA version of that feat) can be picked through Lessons of the 1st Ones. The other feats aren't listed in the UA, which is why they're balanced around => level 4 instead of reworked or given high prerequisites.
As it stands, they are still available based on wording and compatibility. They may be balanced around level 4, but they are available to any character that can gain a feat at first level. The only caveat to Lessons is that the feat have no prerequisites.
That being said…the Lessons invocation opens up a new avenue of magical dicking around. As some have pointed out, you could use it to nab Magic Initiate, Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, Gift of the X Dragon, etc. this SCREAMS occultist and was possibly one of the better ideas they went with. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the revised warlock, it felt a little closer to what I imagined. But then I saw the recent version, had a bit of time to think on it, and now I have a lvl 10 Fiendlock sitting in my back pocket with damn near the magical versatility of a full caster just by selecting feats and a few invocations. Here’s the list
Feats:
L7: Lessons of the First ones: Fey Touched - Misty Step, Bane
Feats:
L4: Rune Shaper - Comprehend Languages, Entangle, Fog Cloud
L8: Shadow Touched - Invisibility, Disguise Self
Is it a bit cheesy? Yes, yes it is. Does it work? Yes it does.
Of the feats you listed only Magic Initiate (the UA version of that feat) can be picked through Lessons of the 1st Ones. The other feats aren't listed in the UA, which is why they're balanced around => level 4 instead of reworked or given high prerequisites.
As it stands, they are still available based on wording and compatibility. They may be balanced around level 4, but they are available to any character that can gain a feat at first level. The only caveat to Lessons is that the feat have no prerequisites.
Technically? I suppose your DM can rule whatever way they like as far playtest vs standard content goes, but I would be pretty shocked if we don't see either a major rewrite to feats or a major change to LotFO to accommodate feats not getting changed. It's part of why all the new feats getting released also have prerequisites.
Disagree ith me if you'd like, but I'd rather not have folks overreacting to the UA7 Warlock based on bad assumptions over LotFO.
That being said…the Lessons invocation opens up a new avenue of magical dicking around. As some have pointed out, you could use it to nab Magic Initiate, Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, Gift of the X Dragon, etc. this SCREAMS occultist and was possibly one of the better ideas they went with. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the revised warlock, it felt a little closer to what I imagined. But then I saw the recent version, had a bit of time to think on it, and now I have a lvl 10 Fiendlock sitting in my back pocket with damn near the magical versatility of a full caster just by selecting feats and a few invocations. Here’s the list
Feats:
L7: Lessons of the First ones: Fey Touched - Misty Step, Bane
Feats:
L4: Rune Shaper - Comprehend Languages, Entangle, Fog Cloud
L8: Shadow Touched - Invisibility, Disguise Self
Is it a bit cheesy? Yes, yes it is. Does it work? Yes it does.
Of the feats you listed only Magic Initiate (the UA version of that feat) can be picked through Lessons of the 1st Ones. The other feats aren't listed in the UA, which is why they're balanced around => level 4 instead of reworked or given high prerequisites.
As it stands, they are still available based on wording and compatibility. They may be balanced around level 4, but they are available to any character that can gain a feat at first level. The only caveat to Lessons is that the feat have no prerequisites.
Technically? I suppose your DM can rule whatever way they like as far playtest vs standard content goes, but I would be pretty shocked if we don't see either a major rewrite to feats or a major change to LotFO to accommodate feats not getting changed. It's part of why all the new feats getting released also have prerequisites.
Disagree ith me if you'd like, but I'd rather not have folks overreacting to the UA7 Warlock based on bad assumptions over LotFO.
I don’t think that level requirement counts as a prerequisite because it’s not with the other prerequisite’s like you need a 13 in certain ability score or need proficiency in certain equipment like armor or weapons.
We will probably get better clarification in the UA Playtest 9 PDF.
I feel like the only spells that could really get abused by an over-abundance of level 1 slots would probably be Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs. I feel like the threat of Silvery Barbs on its own is enough to make this an invocation that could be hated by DMs.
Do people play with Silvery Barbs? Every table I play at just flat out bans it. It is such a terrible spell. I really hope Shield & Absorb Elements get nerfed in 5eR.
That being said…the Lessons invocation opens up a new avenue of magical dicking around. As some have pointed out, you could use it to nab Magic Initiate, Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, Gift of the X Dragon, etc. this SCREAMS occultist and was possibly one of the better ideas they went with. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the revised warlock, it felt a little closer to what I imagined. But then I saw the recent version, had a bit of time to think on it, and now I have a lvl 10 Fiendlock sitting in my back pocket with damn near the magical versatility of a full caster just by selecting feats and a few invocations. Here’s the list
Feats:
L7: Lessons of the First ones: Fey Touched - Misty Step, Bane
Feats:
L4: Rune Shaper - Comprehend Languages, Entangle, Fog Cloud
L8: Shadow Touched - Invisibility, Disguise Self
Is it a bit cheesy? Yes, yes it is. Does it work? Yes it does.
Of the feats you listed only Magic Initiate (the UA version of that feat) can be picked through Lessons of the 1st Ones. The other feats aren't listed in the UA, which is why they're balanced around => level 4 instead of reworked or given high prerequisites.
As it stands, they are still available based on wording and compatibility. They may be balanced around level 4, but they are available to any character that can gain a feat at first level. The only caveat to Lessons is that the feat have no prerequisites.
Technically? I suppose your DM can rule whatever way they like as far playtest vs standard content goes, but I would be pretty shocked if we don't see either a major rewrite to feats or a major change to LotFO to accommodate feats not getting changed. It's part of why all the new feats getting released also have prerequisites.
Disagree ith me if you'd like, but I'd rather not have folks overreacting to the UA7 Warlock based on bad assumptions over LotFO.
I don’t think that level requirement counts as a prerequisite because it’s not with the other prerequisite’s like you need a 13 in certain ability score or need proficiency in certain equipment like armor or weapons.
We will probably get better clarification in the UA Playtest 9 PDF.
Ok, so in the second playtest doc this would allow you to take
-Ability Score improvement, which is listed as a feat with no prerequisites -Resilient, which gives you +1 to an ability and proficiency with the saving throw for the ability you increased (Constitution is definitely the best choice here) -Epic Boon of Fortitude, which grants +40 hp and +your constitution modifier in hp 1/round whenever you gain any amount of hp -Weapon Training, which grants martial weapon proficiency (very helpful if you believe ((rightfully)) that Pat of the Blade proficiency doesn't count for Martial Weapon proficiency) and +1 Strength or Dexterity
I can see an argument for the playtest document being unclear. It will be in my feedback and should be in everyone else's.
I can't see a reasonable argument why anyone would think it's the intent that you can take these feats using just an invocation. At a certain point, one must apply common sense.
i would strongly prefer ritual casting to spell slots. ritual casting is often dismissed as having too many restrictions, but that's everyone else's ritual casting. a warlock takes shortcuts, makes arcane trades, and calls in inter-planar favors. it's like harry potter finding the half-blood prince's book but using the notes in the margin explicitly to trigger 'side effects' of potions crafting mistakes that kludge together a desired result. but, greater chance of hellfire and tentacles. shield and silvery barbs aside, rituals are just more witchy, more seeking answers outside of the classroom.
there are ways to make a 1 or 2 minute [+cast time] 'short-cut ritual' work with every Warlock spell of 1st-, 2nd-, and probably even 3rd- level. yes, even 'attack' spells. anyway, the two necessary caveats are 1.) spells cast at a target create a connection they can sense and follow. attack spells in particular channel a malice that will turn a target quickly hostile and lead them to you in time to ruin the ritual. or, perhaps worse, find cover and exit spell range. and 2.) if the warlock becomes invisible, silenced, or leaves the ritual area then concentration breaks and the ritual fails. so, yes maybe you can cast fly or invisible on a friend, but you must stay behind and keep it up. also if you don't keep it up someone's going to have a bad day. ooh, tension! and, hey, if that's no fun then spend a pact slot, stingy.
keep it to something like PB uses per long rest, maybe allow a use of Magical Cunning to return one ritual use. of course then they're functionally just out-of-combat-only pact slots. which, hmm, i guess i'm fine with.
The ritual casting thing is why I am for the idea of having a level 5 invocation "book of ancient secrets" that provided 1 2nd level ritual from any list and gave you 1 second level spell slot (requires pact of the tome) and why I am for adding other rituals to the warlocks list like augury.
I think the biggest change needed at this point is to spells more than anything else. Spell lists, spells themselves. These things are the issue for most things rather than anything going on in the base classes.
If witch bolt didn't need concentration and maybe the upcast added additional rays it would be a great spell to upcast. If hunger of Hadar had any upcasting at all it would be good. If the 4th level spells were better than the 3rd level spells it would be nice. If wall of force wasn't so broken. If the conjure spells weren't broken. There is so many things that would be solved with spell fixes.
I think any extra "low level slots" a warlock gets should NEVER go above second level. 3rd level and above spells aren't really "low level". And the idea that any full caster is using an ACTION to cast a first or second level spell. If they are doing it one of a few things has happened. 1. The fight is easy and they don't want to waste a more powerful spell (In this case the warlock is just going to EB) 2. The spell is uniquely appropriate to the fight and makes it easy (Warlock should just cast it as well then) 3. The day has gone on really long and they have already used all of their high level slots (In this case, the likelihood of a second short rest occurring skyrockets, so while the full caster is using 2nd level spells the lock is likely still using 4th).
As far as magical cunning goes. if the thought is it doesn't do much because you can just take a short rest and get your slots back than your game is probably not struggling with short rests to begin with and you are regularly getting 2 short rests or more in which Warlocks were already balanced and fine without any additional buffs with 2 short rests in 2014. If the issue is that their is only 1 or 2 big fights a day and then a long rest, than again the table should really use the Gritty Realism rest rules as that is what they are designed for. The table isn't just nerfing warlocks in this case, they are buffing every full caster and nerfing every martial to a substantial degree.
I agree that if an invocation gave slots it would only be 1st and 2nd. And Tome pact required, imo. With warlock level restrictions like get an additional 1st level spell requires level 5 warlock. And an invocation to give 2nd have 7th level warlock requirement. I don’t think they should be handed out lightly and avoid MC dipping easily.
Spell slot invocations tied to Tome pact could possibly also give access to higher level rituals
I would still like Pact Magic go to per long rest recovery but still all slots scale up to level 5. But that’s just me. Cunning Magic helps the slot issue and adding lower level slots via invocations plus at will invocations (more could be added) helps the rest.
Oh God, what have I written?! (jk)
It’s better to give Spellcasting levels than spell slots. That’s the problem I have with Pact of the tome. Since it gives a spell slot a one level dip Warlock/Sorcerer has three 1st level spell slots and a pact magic spell slot as a 2nd level character. It’s a weird spell slot, now imagine invocations that just give more spell slots then you multiclass and have 6 1st level spell slots. It’s awkward considering how everything else in the game functions. It’s not necessarily broken, but given enough time someone will think of a way to exploit that.
That's what I have been doing to 'fix' pact magic. MC into sorc, bard and wiz variously to pick up spell slots because pact magic is inadequate, and invocations are not well enough developed.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
100% disagree. I play with two groups currently, and I have BEEN playing since the 80s. Back in the day, all our games were hack and slash. RP was something that we did, but it was never central to the game. It's still not central to the game. You don't get to decide that our fun is wrong or bad.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That's a very good point. I think the way to restrict this is to add limitations to them... I think if I had reword it, it would say:
Spell Versatility - Prerequisite: 3rd level
You gain two level 1 spell slots and one level 2 spell slot. This feature cannot increase your number of level 1 spell slots higher than 4, or your level 2 spell slots higher than 3. These spell slots recover after completing a Long Rest.
Then add similar limitations to higher level slots (although I do like the idea suggested earlier that this should be limited just to 1st and 2nd level slots). That way it will give a single-class Warlock a solid increase in lower-level slots for utility and a little more spellcasting versatility, but can't be used as a multiclass dip just to build up a bunch of extra spell slots.
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Those extra first level spell slots are not a problem at higher levels as they are useful for only niche spells such as shield, which is problematic on it's own. 6 first level magic missiles? Not a problem. 6 sleeps? Not a problem. 6 burning hands? Again, not a problem. At higher levels nobody's going to cast those anyways.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I feel like the only spells that could really get abused by an over-abundance of level 1 slots would probably be Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs. I feel like the threat of Silvery Barbs on its own is enough to make this an invocation that could be hated by DMs.
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Also these are spell slots so they could be more sorcery points, smite spells, or as Transmorpher said silvery barbs. Possibly the 2nd most power creep spell right after healing spirit.
oh, no no no. i remember it being like playing a world of warcraft dungeon but in the same room with your friends: tactical and engaging and intuitive. it probably helped in my case that this was my first foray into miniatures and maps with D&D and it was love at first fight. on the other hand, my friends had an immediate strong reaction to the 5ft-squares and the minis and the everybody having some spell or ability every single turn ("when everyone's super... no one will be!") best described with an angry poop emoji, if we'd had those back then. also the emoji would be moistening some previously crisp twenty dollar bills.
...so mixed feelings, is how i'd put it.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
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Different tables syndrome. 90's for me, older relatives DM'ing. They had hack and slash but were also really into the books and the lore and so on. Well, one was, the other was really into war games.
It's not my cup of tea, but as long as I don't have to be dragged into the tedium of it, I'm not going t knock on someone's fun.
As for your brand of fun, I feel like this comment was because Yurei is being Yurei, and everything's a personal offense, and so on, and they have to dial everything up to 11.
Also, it could just be the idea that we're all asking for something because we're not actually playing...
Hell, most of the time I'm on here is just to kill time.
I have a little brother (in his early 20's) like that. I'm kinda used to it (Yurei that is...)
i would strongly prefer ritual casting to spell slots. ritual casting is often dismissed as having too many restrictions, but that's everyone else's ritual casting. a warlock takes shortcuts, makes arcane trades, and calls in inter-planar favors. it's like harry potter finding the half-blood prince's book but using the notes in the margin explicitly to trigger 'side effects' of potions crafting mistakes that kludge together a desired result. but, greater chance of hellfire and tentacles. shield and silvery barbs aside, rituals are just more witchy, more seeking answers outside of the classroom.
there are ways to make a 1 or 2 minute [+cast time] 'short-cut ritual' work with every Warlock spell of 1st-, 2nd-, and probably even 3rd- level. yes, even 'attack' spells. anyway, the two necessary caveats are 1.) spells cast at a target create a connection they can sense and follow. attack spells in particular channel a malice that will turn a target quickly hostile and lead them to you in time to ruin the ritual. or, perhaps worse, find cover and exit spell range. and 2.) if the warlock becomes invisible, silenced, or leaves the ritual area then concentration breaks and the ritual fails. so, yes maybe you can cast fly or invisible on a friend, but you must stay behind and keep it up. also if you don't keep it up someone's going to have a bad day. ooh, tension! and, hey, if that's no fun then spend a pact slot, stingy.
keep it to something like PB uses per long rest, maybe allow a use of Magical Cunning to return one ritual use. of course then they're functionally just out-of-combat-only pact slots. which, hmm, i guess i'm fine with.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
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Of the feats you listed only Magic Initiate (the UA version of that feat) can be picked through Lessons of the 1st Ones. The other feats aren't listed in the UA, which is why they're balanced around => level 4 instead of reworked or given high prerequisites.
I'm not trying to add more to the mix, but if ritual spells could be learned like wizards learned spells and still has to cast them with ritual time requirements and such, it would be a nice boost, and certain rituals as at wills invocations could still coexist.
As it stands, they are still available based on wording and compatibility. They may be balanced around level 4, but they are available to any character that can gain a feat at first level. The only caveat to Lessons is that the feat have no prerequisites.
Technically? I suppose your DM can rule whatever way they like as far playtest vs standard content goes, but I would be pretty shocked if we don't see either a major rewrite to feats or a major change to LotFO to accommodate feats not getting changed. It's part of why all the new feats getting released also have prerequisites.
Disagree ith me if you'd like, but I'd rather not have folks overreacting to the UA7 Warlock based on bad assumptions over LotFO.
I don’t think that level requirement counts as a prerequisite because it’s not with the other prerequisite’s like you need a 13 in certain ability score or need proficiency in certain equipment like armor or weapons.
We will probably get better clarification in the UA Playtest 9 PDF.
Do people play with Silvery Barbs? Every table I play at just flat out bans it. It is such a terrible spell. I really hope Shield & Absorb Elements get nerfed in 5eR.
Ok, so in the second playtest doc this would allow you to take
-Ability Score improvement, which is listed as a feat with no prerequisites
-Resilient, which gives you +1 to an ability and proficiency with the saving throw for the ability you increased (Constitution is definitely the best choice here)
-Epic Boon of Fortitude, which grants +40 hp and +your constitution modifier in hp 1/round whenever you gain any amount of hp
-Weapon Training, which grants martial weapon proficiency (very helpful if you believe ((rightfully)) that Pat of the Blade proficiency doesn't count for Martial Weapon proficiency) and +1 Strength or Dexterity
I can see an argument for the playtest document being unclear. It will be in my feedback and should be in everyone else's.
I can't see a reasonable argument why anyone would think it's the intent that you can take these feats using just an invocation. At a certain point, one must apply common sense.
The ritual casting thing is why I am for the idea of having a level 5 invocation "book of ancient secrets" that provided 1 2nd level ritual from any list and gave you 1 second level spell slot (requires pact of the tome) and why I am for adding other rituals to the warlocks list like augury.
I think the biggest change needed at this point is to spells more than anything else. Spell lists, spells themselves. These things are the issue for most things rather than anything going on in the base classes.
If witch bolt didn't need concentration and maybe the upcast added additional rays it would be a great spell to upcast. If hunger of Hadar had any upcasting at all it would be good. If the 4th level spells were better than the 3rd level spells it would be nice. If wall of force wasn't so broken. If the conjure spells weren't broken. There is so many things that would be solved with spell fixes.
I agree that if an invocation gave slots it would only be 1st and 2nd. And Tome pact required, imo. With warlock level restrictions like get an additional 1st level spell requires level 5 warlock. And an invocation to give 2nd have 7th level warlock requirement. I don’t think they should be handed out lightly and avoid MC dipping easily.
Spell slot invocations tied to Tome pact could possibly also give access to higher level rituals
I would still like Pact Magic go to per long rest recovery but still all slots scale up to level 5. But that’s just me. Cunning Magic helps the slot issue and adding lower level slots via invocations plus at will invocations (more could be added) helps the rest.
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