I'm not trying to add more to the mix, but if ritual spells could be learned like wizards learned spells and still has to cast them with ritual time requirements and such, it would be a nice boost, and certain rituals as at wills invocations could still coexist.
Quoting myself to bring this back up.
The warlock tends to be very ritual forward, and the balance issue that everyone seems to have is that rituals take up "spells learned "space.
Where as I like some rituals as at wills via invocations, rituals as spells you can copy from other books or scrolls and add to your pact of the tome for the same costs as wizards learning spells and likewise not counting to the spells learned.
Plus more versatility to an already insanely versatile class at no real power bump in combat...
Honestly, with something like that, the warlock is looking more like a spell skill monkey more than the bard . (Shhhhhh......)
i would strongly prefer ritual casting to spell slots. ritual casting is often dismissed as having too many restrictions, but that's everyone else's ritual casting. a warlock takes shortcuts, makes arcane trades, and calls in inter-planar favors. it's like harry potter finding the half-blood prince's book but using the notes in the margin explicitly to trigger 'side effects' of potions crafting mistakes that kludge together a desired result. but, greater chance of hellfire and tentacles. shield and silvery barbs aside, rituals are just more witchy, more seeking answers outside of the classroom.
there are ways to make a 1 or 2 minute [+cast time] 'short-cut ritual' work with every Warlock spell of 1st-, 2nd-, and probably even 3rd- level. yes, even 'attack' spells. anyway, the two necessary caveats are 1.) spells cast at a target create a connection they can sense and follow. attack spells in particular channel a malice that will turn a target quickly hostile and lead them to you in time to ruin the ritual. or, perhaps worse, find cover and exit spell range. and 2.) if the warlock becomes invisible, silenced, or leaves the ritual area then concentration breaks and the ritual fails. so, yes maybe you can cast fly or invisible on a friend, but you must stay behind and keep it up. also if you don't keep it up someone's going to have a bad day. ooh, tension! and, hey, if that's no fun then spend a pact slot, stingy.
keep it to something like PB uses per long rest, maybe allow a use of Magical Cunning to return one ritual use. of course then they're functionally just out-of-combat-only pact slots. which, hmm, i guess i'm fine with.
The ritual casting thing is why I am for the idea of having a level 5 invocation "book of ancient secrets" that provided 1 2nd level ritual from any list and gave you 1 second level spell slot (requires pact of the tome) and why I am for adding other rituals to the warlocks list like augury.
I think the biggest change needed at this point is to spells more than anything else. Spell lists, spells themselves. These things are the issue for most things rather than anything going on in the base classes.
If witch bolt didn't need concentration and maybe the upcast added additional rays it would be a great spell to upcast. If hunger of Hadar had any upcasting at all it would be good. If the 4th level spells were better than the 3rd level spells it would be nice. If wall of force wasn't so broken. If the conjure spells weren't broken. There is so many things that would be solved with spell fixes.
The spell list needs an overhaul and I think everyone knows it, it's just that the situation is like the class testing: people are going to riot against downgrading of any sort, and have a veritable Christmas list of what they want buffed up....
I'm not trying to add more to the mix, but if ritual spells could be learned like wizards learned spells and still has to cast them with ritual time requirements and such, it would be a nice boost, and certain rituals as at wills invocations could still coexist.
Quoting myself to bring this back up.
The warlock tends to be very ritual forward, and the balance issue that everyone seems to have is that rituals take up "spells learned "space.
Where as I like some rituals as at wills via invocations, rituals as spells you can copy from other books or scrolls and add to your pact of the tome for the same costs as wizards learning spells and likewise not counting to the spells learned.
Plus more versatility to an already insanely versatile class at no real power bump in combat...
Honestly, with something like that, the warlock is looking more like a spell skill monkey more than the bard . (Shhhhhh......)
skill monkey? actually, warlocks already get the borrowed knowledge spell, so yeah. but here's an example of a spell no one wanted to spend a pact slot on ever ever (without first metagaming some short rest guarantees). definitely let warlock cast that as a ritual. more rituals all around! hmm, but who wants to wait around 10 minutes? let's instead make that an at-will invocation which combines borrowed knowledge with some 'ritual' restriction that makes it non-trivial to accomplish under duress, something like... must be upside down for the duration of the spell and skill check. you can roll your eyes, but it's a simple dm-gate: if an upside-down person would complicate the situation then the party is probably overreaching in the first place and deserves what this brings.
just to further poke at more mundane skill monkeys, i'd also add a second invocation (which requires the first) that adds self-cast enhance abilityiff the "book worth at least 25G" spell component actually includes pertinent knowledge when using borrowed knowledge in this way.
The more everyone talks about it, the more I'm convinced that the right play is to have the spell slots gained via Invocations be limited to 1st and 2nd level slots, and that Pact of the Tome should be a requirement to unlock those additional slots. In addition, any slots gained should be calculated as contributing to overall caster level for the spellcasting feature, so sorcerers can't just dip into Warlock to get a bunch of extra low level spell slots.
I think one of the things that's challenging about Warlocks versus other spellcasters is that they can't really solve little problems with their magic. They've only got a couple spell slots and they're always max level... so casting something like Expeditious retreat, which a Wizard might do casually to solve a problem where they need to cover a lot of ground, is more or less off the table because there's almost always something better to save your spell slots for. By making it an invocation (or series of invocations), the players who want more diverse spellcasting can be satisfied without losing the things that make Warlocks unique and fun in their own way. A pool of low-level slots adds versatility, while Pact slots cover mid-range spells, since even after reaching 5th level slots it can still be worth your effort to cast a 3rd level spell that doesn't upscale. Then higher level casting is covered by Mystic Arcanums, so this gives the option to build Warlock in a way that functions as a more traditional spellcaster, without making it a requirement that every Warlock player now plays that way.
As far as compromising on the spells per day goes, I'd just like to see the Warlock with a lesser but reasonable # of spells than other casters still built on long rest refresh. I know other folks have floated this too, my version would be something like the list below.
This set up gives the Warlock 1 spell per level / long rest until 6th level, and then begins losing lower level spell slots to get access to higher ones until they max out at 5th. The # of spells between long rests remains at 5 until level 13, where one more 4th level spell is added per day.
Warlocks would also gain their own version of Arcane Recovery, call it Occult Sacrifice. When finishing a long rest a Warlock may spend HD to restore spell levels on a 1:1 basis. Hit Dice spent this way are restored following a long rest as normal.
The more everyone talks about it, the more I'm convinced that the right play is to have the spell slots gained via Invocations be limited to 1st and 2nd level slots, and that Pact of the Tome should be a requirement to unlock those additional slots. In addition, any slots gained should be calculated as contributing to overall caster level for the spellcasting feature, so sorcerers can't just dip into Warlock to get a bunch of extra low level spell slots.
I think one of the things that's challenging about Warlocks versus other spellcasters is that they can't really solve little problems with their magic. They've only got a couple spell slots and they're always max level... so casting something like Expeditious retreat, which a Wizard might do casually to solve a problem where they need to cover a lot of ground, is more or less off the table because there's almost always something better to save your spell slots for. By making it an invocation (or series of invocations), the players who want more diverse spellcasting can be satisfied without losing the things that make Warlocks unique and fun in their own way. A pool of low-level slots adds versatility, while Pact slots cover mid-range spells, since even after reaching 5th level slots it can still be worth your effort to cast a 3rd level spell that doesn't upscale. Then higher level casting is covered by Mystic Arcanums, so this gives the option to build Warlock in a way that functions as a more traditional spellcaster, without making it a requirement that every Warlock player now plays that way.
i like warlocks, but spell slots and spells from other classes don't feel particularly right, even if they potentially make the play-through 'more fun.' more fun for who? i guess my questions are...
why do warlocks deserve spell slots? a fighter can't really solve little problems with magic either. however, instead of requesting spell slots i think most magically-minded fighters would take a feat or multiclass dip.
what would warlocks be giving up to gain this? other invocations? then that's power creep.
last, are spells like expeditious retreat utility or defense? is if often that a party has no one else who might want to show off their athleticism, class features, or spells? is this a boon for the party or power creep for the warlock?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
I'm not trying to add more to the mix, but if ritual spells could be learned like wizards learned spells and still has to cast them with ritual time requirements and such, it would be a nice boost, and certain rituals as at wills invocations could still coexist.
Quoting myself to bring this back up.
The warlock tends to be very ritual forward, and the balance issue that everyone seems to have is that rituals take up "spells learned "space.
Where as I like some rituals as at wills via invocations, rituals as spells you can copy from other books or scrolls and add to your pact of the tome for the same costs as wizards learning spells and likewise not counting to the spells learned.
Plus more versatility to an already insanely versatile class at no real power bump in combat...
Honestly, with something like that, the warlock is looking more like a spell skill monkey more than the bard . (Shhhhhh......)
warlocks already get the borrowed knowledge spell so, sure, let's cast that with a 10-minute ritual, why not. here's an example of a spell no one wanted to spend a pact slot on ever ever (without first metagaming some short rest guarantees). hmm, but who wants to wait around 10 minutes? let's instead make that an at-will invocation which combines borrowed knowledge with some 'ritual' restriction that makes it non-trivial to accomplish under duress, something like... must be upside down for the duration of the spell and skill check. you can roll your eyes, but it's a simple check: if an upside-down person would complicate the situation then the party is probably overreaching in the first place and deserves what this brings.
just to further poke at more mundane skill monkeys, i'd also add a second invocation (which requires the first) that adds self-cast enhance abilityiff the "book worth at least 25G" spell component actually includes pertinent knowledge when using borrowed knowledge in this way.
but, yeah, more ritual casting all around.
Why not just give them Borrowed Knowledge at will? or better yet, just give them an Invocation that is proficiency in all skills available at level 1. But really, why even stop there? Give them another Invocation that give them the Bard's Magical Secrets as well? Oh and why not change Master of Myriad forms so it becomes Druid's Wildshape but unlimited use at level 7? And make Pact of the Tome become just a full Wizard's spellbook at level 5, but actually give them another invocation that lets them copy any spell from any spell list at level 15. Meanwhile we need to buff Pact of the Chain so the familiar is at least as powerful as a Ranger's Beastmaster Companion and the Paladin's Find Steed, but keep the unique invisibility, hands, and magic resistance.
The more everyone talks about it, the more I'm convinced that the right play is to have the spell slots gained via Invocations be limited to 1st and 2nd level slots, and that Pact of the Tome should be a requirement to unlock those additional slots. In addition, any slots gained should be calculated as contributing to overall caster level for the spellcasting feature, so sorcerers can't just dip into Warlock to get a bunch of extra low level spell slots.
I think one of the things that's challenging about Warlocks versus other spellcasters is that they can't really solve little problems with their magic. They've only got a couple spell slots and they're always max level... so casting something like Expeditious retreat, which a Wizard might do casually to solve a problem where they need to cover a lot of ground, is more or less off the table because there's almost always something better to save your spell slots for. By making it an invocation (or series of invocations), the players who want more diverse spellcasting can be satisfied without losing the things that make Warlocks unique and fun in their own way. A pool of low-level slots adds versatility, while Pact slots cover mid-range spells, since even after reaching 5th level slots it can still be worth your effort to cast a 3rd level spell that doesn't upscale. Then higher level casting is covered by Mystic Arcanums, so this gives the option to build Warlock in a way that functions as a more traditional spellcaster, without making it a requirement that every Warlock player now plays that way.
i like warlocks, but spell slots and spells from other classes don't feel particularly right, even if they potentially make the play-through 'more fun.' more fun for who? i guess my questions are...
why do warlocks deserve spell slots? a fighter can't really solve little problems with magic either. however, instead of requesting spell slots i think most magically-minded fighters would take a feat or multiclass dip.
what would warlocks be giving up to gain this? other invocations? then that's power creep.
last, are spells like expeditious retreat utility or defense? is if often that a party has no one else who might want to show off their athleticism, class features, or spells? is this a boon for the party or power creep for the warlock?
It’s no more power creep than weapon masteries and cunning strikes what did this classes give up to gain that power. Nothing. This would be a new method for Warlocks to interact with there invocations. Casting a couple of first level combat spells with normal spell slots shouldn’t be all that more powerful than casting first level non combat spells at will (which they already do). The choice will be between at will invocations which might be a spell not be on the spell list, a once a day spell that isn’t on the spell list, some unique warlock thing (devil sight, agonizing blast), or some low level spell slots to cast the spells that are prepared. It’s barely power creep at all as part of invocations. Warlocks are spellcasters and shouldn’t have to multiclass to cast spells. I’ll be the first to say warlocks shouldn’t be full or half casters but to deny them any access to more slots considering the revisions other classes are getting is wrong.
The more everyone talks about it, the more I'm convinced that the right play is to have the spell slots gained via Invocations be limited to 1st and 2nd level slots, and that Pact of the Tome should be a requirement to unlock those additional slots. In addition, any slots gained should be calculated as contributing to overall caster level for the spellcasting feature, so sorcerers can't just dip into Warlock to get a bunch of extra low level spell slots.
I think one of the things that's challenging about Warlocks versus other spellcasters is that they can't really solve little problems with their magic. They've only got a couple spell slots and they're always max level... so casting something like Expeditious retreat, which a Wizard might do casually to solve a problem where they need to cover a lot of ground, is more or less off the table because there's almost always something better to save your spell slots for. By making it an invocation (or series of invocations), the players who want more diverse spellcasting can be satisfied without losing the things that make Warlocks unique and fun in their own way. A pool of low-level slots adds versatility, while Pact slots cover mid-range spells, since even after reaching 5th level slots it can still be worth your effort to cast a 3rd level spell that doesn't upscale. Then higher level casting is covered by Mystic Arcanums, so this gives the option to build Warlock in a way that functions as a more traditional spellcaster, without making it a requirement that every Warlock player now plays that way.
i like warlocks, but spell slots and spells from other classes don't feel particularly right, even if they potentially make the play-through 'more fun.' more fun for who? i guess my questions are...
why do warlocks deserve spell slots? a fighter can't really solve little problems with magic either. however, instead of requesting spell slots i think most magically-minded fighters would take a feat or multiclass dip.
what would warlocks be giving up to gain this? other invocations? then that's power creep.
last, are spells like expeditious retreat utility or defense? is if often that a party has no one else who might want to show off their athleticism, class features, or spells? is this a boon for the party or power creep for the warlock?
I think that's partly why I think this works best as Invocations instead of as a change to the core Warlock. I feel that the class doesn't necessarily need these spell slots to function, but with just how customizable the class is, making this versatility an option in some way makes sense to me. I think that's the big point I find myself going back to... I don't know about everyone else, but to me, the customization the Warlock offers is the classes most appealing element. So maybe the class isn't the best blaster, or the best martial fighter, or the best utility caster... but with the right invocation choices, you can choose which of those you want to be. I think, for a long time, Warlock was just treated as a pure spellcaster class. It's already got pact slots and cantrips and everything... it is very much a spellcaster class. But the invocations largely were focused on either giving you options to become something else, or just how to focus that caster class in specific ways (most of those ways being, "Make eldritch blast stronger"). But there was very little that just made Warlock better at being a dedicated caster class. I think the logic was... why would you bother? It's already a dedicated spell caster, why make invocations to do the thing the class is already built to do? But the thing is... it's not built that way. Not in the same way other classes do. So in the same way that Pact of the Blade and the Invocations that pair with it can make the Warlock into a solid Gish melee combatant, I think it makes sense to have other invocations that make the class a better versatile spellcaster. I think that having some means of acquiring a limited number of traditional spell slots is the easiest way to accomplish that, but I do admit it's possible there's about a hundred unforeseen circumstances that would make this a bad idea in the long run.
I'm not trying to add more to the mix, but if ritual spells could be learned like wizards learned spells and still has to cast them with ritual time requirements and such, it would be a nice boost, and certain rituals as at wills invocations could still coexist.
Quoting myself to bring this back up.
The warlock tends to be very ritual forward, and the balance issue that everyone seems to have is that rituals take up "spells learned "space.
Where as I like some rituals as at wills via invocations, rituals as spells you can copy from other books or scrolls and add to your pact of the tome for the same costs as wizards learning spells and likewise not counting to the spells learned.
Plus more versatility to an already insanely versatile class at no real power bump in combat...
Honestly, with something like that, the warlock is looking more like a spell skill monkey more than the bard . (Shhhhhh......)
warlocks already get the borrowed knowledge spell so, sure, let's cast that with a 10-minute ritual, why not. here's an example of a spell no one wanted to spend a pact slot on ever ever (without first metagaming some short rest guarantees). hmm, but who wants to wait around 10 minutes? let's instead make that an at-will invocation which combines borrowed knowledge with some 'ritual' restriction that makes it non-trivial to accomplish under duress, something like... must be upside down for the duration of the spell and skill check. you can roll your eyes, but it's a simple check: if an upside-down person would complicate the situation then the party is probably overreaching in the first place and deserves what this brings.
just to further poke at more mundane skill monkeys, i'd also add a second invocation (which requires the first) that adds self-cast enhance abilityiff the "book worth at least 25G" spell component actually includes pertinent knowledge when using borrowed knowledge in this way.
but, yeah, more ritual casting all around.
Why not just give them Borrowed Knowledge at will? or better yet, just give them an Invocation that is proficiency in all skills available at level 1. But really, why even stop there? Give them another Invocation that give them the Bard's Magical Secrets as well? Oh and why not change Master of Myriad forms so it becomes Druid's Wildshape but unlimited use at level 7? And make Pact of the Tome become just a full Wizard's spellbook at level 5, but actually give them another invocation that lets them copy any spell from any spell list at level 15. Meanwhile we need to buff Pact of the Chain so the familiar is at least as powerful as a Ranger's Beastmaster Companion and the Paladin's Find Steed, but keep the unique invisibility, hands, and magic resistance.
fella, are you certain all this firepower is necessary for a'huntin deer? them deer ain't askin whether you are current on your taxes are they?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
after some thought, I'd like to add that while a single blatant "hello, I'm the main character" invocation might have been the straw that broke the Agilemind's back, it was amidst a long string of asks with little to no compromise in the thread with 'compromise' in the title. in my defence that invocation was only suggested as a knife in the dark for bards. ugh, bards. I don't think they even play their instruments any more. skill monkeys. ugh.
as for all the spell-slot-warlocks requests, I feel like I get where they're coming from: survey says people like to cast spells. and my kids like cookies better than broccoli. luckily for the health of my children, my dinner table is neither democraticly lead nor crowdsource controlled. similarly, we can make suggestions in this thread but many will be piss in the wind. to have just the slightest chance of influencing events, maybe we could all take more care in this thread to make healthy, balanced suggestions that don't position the warlock class to solve every puzzle and utility situation that might arise. the adventure's success isn't solely on our backs. sometimes going back to town for rope because no one has spider climb prepared is just party of the story.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
after some thought, I'd like to add that while a single blatant "hello, I'm the main character" invocation might have been the straw that broke the Agilemind's back, it was amidst a long string of asks with little to no compromise in the thread with 'compromise' in the title. in my defence that invocation was only suggested as a knife in the dark for bards. ugh, bards. I don't think they even play their instruments any more. skill monkeys. ugh.
as for all the spell-slot-warlocks requests, I feel like I get where they're coming from: survey says people like to cast spells. and my kids like cookies better than broccoli. luckily for the health of my children, my dinner table is neither democraticly lead nor crowdsource controlled. similarly, we can make suggestions in this thread but many will be piss in the wind. to have just the slightest chance of influencing events, maybe we could all take more care in this thread to make healthy, balanced suggestions that don't position the warlock class to solve every puzzle and utility situation that might arise. the adventure's success isn't solely on our backs. sometimes going back to town for rope because no one has spider climb prepared is just party of the story.
The return of Book of Ancient Secrets invocation gives Warlock the best Ritual Casting with DM fiat. That’s already a 5e thing and shouldn’t be a problem.
Borrowed Knowledge as a ritual or at will is a no go.
Spell Slots as invocations should be fair, but implementation and balance needs to be discussed. Maybe my idea of 4 invocations that make you effectively have 1/3 spell caster progression is too much. Maybe it’s just an invocation for two 1st level slots at 5th or 7th and an invocation for one 2nd level slot at 9th or 12th level and that’s it. Anything more becomes unfair. I’m not sure of the exact balance, but one does exist and it not the warlocks can’t get anything that some people are proposing. Their is definitely a place we’re invocations for spell slots is balanced.
I'll buy you a calculator so you can make the numbers go up....
How kind of you.
I hate that this argument is happening.
So does everyone else.
Yurei, you're right. More people are interested in crunch right now than they are in the role play. That was the one of the big points I've been making about the general tonal shift of the community and the UA's.
What tonal shift? People have been talking about the mechanics of D&D since D&D existed. You're the one with this weird idea that people had rejected any sort of mechanical systems in 5e prior to the One D&D "test" cycle.
The original 5e, however, was a huge correction towards role play. It's mechanics were simplified dramatically, the dmg is all about world building and story telling, and the monsters are pretty damned easy to kill so that storytelling and role playing take center stage.
The 2014 5e Dungeon Master's Guide is widely held to be the worst DMG in the history of the game. There has been pushback against the oversimplification of many of D&D's mechanics since the 2014 books were released - see the practically weekly, if not daily, threads about Better Melee that resulted in the Weapon Mastery system in some of the UA docs. The monsters are easy to kill for people who know how to play D&D. CR was tuned for players who didn't know what optimal decisions are and who never do anything but use their class's basic at-will resource - either The Attack Action or their basic damaging cantrip - every turn. J-Craw has stated such openly; CR errs on the side of heavily favoring the PCs because D&D was trying to idiot-proof combat, not because "storytelling and roleplaying can take center stage." If your combats aren't part of your storytelling and roleplaying, I question why you're using this system at all.
That's 5e. You don't have to optimize crap because it's not designed for crunchy players and the difficulty is minimal. It's d&d for storytellers.
You keep dismissing crunchy players as obviously hating 'story'. Why? It's a well known fact amongst much of the playerbase that the players most invested in learning the mechanics, figuring out their characters, and engaging with the mechanical systems of the game are also the players most likely to invest heavily into their roleplaying. because they're invested in D&D. People who can't be assed to figure out even basic mechanics, who just want to yabber with their buddies and occasionally chuck a d6 for shits and giggs, are much less likely to be Invested In Roleplay because they aren't invested in the game in the first place.
The PREVIOUS D&D, 3.5 (we don't talk about 4), and pathfinder is the crunchiest. Where combat mechanics and bonuses stack to the point where combat takes 6 hours and your DM can't keep up when it comes to anything worthwhile for you to face because things break to easily. Nevertheless, because of how broken things are and how God like you quickly get, it's not even final fantasy. It's smash bros/Mario cart.
No, Fourth Edition was the previous edition of D&D. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean you get to unexist it. 4e, from what I've gathered since taking up the hobby 'bout five years ago, did a lot of things right and was an excellent game. It just wasn't enough of a D&D game for D&D players to accept it as D&D.
Your stance on combat proves you're not very good at it and don't understand it. Combat should be fast, frenetic, and ideally slightly panicked. If your combat takes six hours to play, you designed it poorly. Stacking fifty different largely-inconsequential modifiers isn't what any "combat junkie" is after; a true combat plyaer is one that wants to make interesting decisions in combat. Has nothing to do with Power Level or counting bonuses. We want awesome fights that we talk about later, where clever play and epic luck can sway the tides of ferocious battle.
The gritty, "you're gonna die" version was AD&D.
They all have their audiences.
They do. Interesting how you're willing to admit the game has a diverse audience here, but insist everywhere else that the game is narrowly focused solely on Amateur Thespians trying to present a play with/for their friends and crunchy folks can get bent.
But Yurei, you're a fan of Mario cart playing final fantasy and acting like it's dark souls.
Chill.....
You don't know me. You don't know my games. You don't know how I play, yet you disparage me - not my words, me - constantly. Which, whatever. I'm used to people disparaging me. But kindly follow your own advice, if you would? If you're going to constantly accuse me of being an absolutely awful player and an even worse person because I disagree with your views on game design, maybe just kindly don't.
I know we disagree a bunch but I am wholly going to come to bat for yurei here.
Bob, different games can run differently and it be absolutely no issues. Mechanically invested players can be some of the most invested role players that exist. And Yurei is absolutely spot on that all classes should have interesting decisions to make in combat that isn’t just “I hit this thing”. It’s not a power gaming thing. It’s a fun and storytelling thing.
D&D 5e is for a diverse group of people who can play different styles of game. You can have the easy, more chill purely story based mode. That’s perfectly fine. You can have the highly customised, home brewed game. No problems. You can have the super hard, mid maxed game and that’s great! And you can have any other type of game too. And none of them mean you can’t tell a good story or enjoy it in a perfectly viable way.
Also the weird focus on other games people play makes no sense. I’ve played stardew valley. That doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy some super hard bash your head against a wall difficult games at times. That’s some weird judgement.
It’s no more power creep than weapon masteries and cunning strikes what did this classes give up to gain that power. Nothing.
And warlocks have gotten: All Warlocks: More Invocations 1-2 additional top level spell per day Ability to turn an invocation into additional feats including: Tough, Armour Proficiencies, Magic Initiate, 3 skill proficiencies, bonus to initiative, lucky All their pact spells automatically known/prepared 1 free contact other planes per day Ability to spend the entire combat safely behind total cover using Gaze of Two Minds
Weapon-focused Weapon Mastery Ability to use heavy weapons a Third attack at level 11
Caster-focused Ability to have all pacts boons at once Ability to have any 1st level ritual and any cantrip available on demand.
Plus all of the subclasses got buffed. All without giving up anything. Yet still everyone just wants, more, and more, and more, until the Warlock is better at absolutely everything in the game than any other class. The Warlock should not be a better martial than a martial class (it currently is) and a better more versatile spellcaster than a spellcaster class (it's pretty close already). No you shouldn't be able to customize Warlock so it is just as good as a Wizard, no you shouldn't be able to customize Warlock so it is just as good as a Fighter, because otherwise there is no point having any other class in the game!
If you want lower level slots then you must to give up SR recharge of Pact Magic. If Warlock players want to play like a full spellcaster then you can play like a full spellcaster with ALL your spellslots only recharging on a LR.
Right now, at level 1, the Warlock is arguably better at every aspect of the game than any other class depending on what they choose for their invocation.
Pact of the Tome is a better Caster 5 cantrips vs a Sorcerer's 4 2 spells prepared + 2 rituals known that can be swapped on a SR vs a Wizard's 4 spells prepared or a Sorcerers 2 spells prepared. 2 first level spell slots, that increases to 3 with 1 SR (same as a Wizard) or 4 with 2 SRs (more than any other class in the game)
Lessons of the First Ones is a better Expert 5 skill proficiencies compare to a maximum of 4 for Rogue
Pact of the Blade is a better Warrior Proficiency & Mastery with Martial and Simple melee weapons that they can swap around for a BA giving them effectively proficiency & mastery in all melee weapons in the game at level 1, vs a Fighter has 3 and a Barbarian has 2 Hex + Nick weapons = equal or more damage as any other martial.
I think that's a good point, Agilemind... it's kind of easy to forget that the warlock got absolutely JUICED in the latest UA. The spellcasting issue, I think, is still at the forefront of many players' minds mostly because that's the biggest change between this UA and the last one. The reaction to making Warlocks into half-casters was met with a lot of objections by players, but there was definitely still a solid number of players who preferred that system. It's kind of had a car-crash effect on the reaction to the Warlock, where this one big spectacle has distracted many of us from the many less-flashy, but potentially more impactful changes that occurred at the same time.
I think a lot of this debate that's been going on has largely had the modern 5e Warlock in mind as the reference point. I know that's what I've been mostly thinking of... I think, in my head, I sort of told myself that OneDnD Warlock had just reverted back to the 5e Warlock, and treated it that way. But I forgot that Warlocks have been given so much more... more spells prepared automatically, more invocations, more more more. I still do think that getting the option of an invocation or two to provide some low level slots would be nice, I am starting to see that it's really just gravy at this point. It's a fix that would greatly benefit the 5e Warlock, but with everything the Warlock can do now... even just the option to use an Invocation slot to grab a feat... does a lot to make them stand stronger than the class ever has before.
It’s no more power creep than weapon masteries and cunning strikes what did this classes give up to gain that power. Nothing.
And warlocks have gotten: All Warlocks: More Invocations 1-2 additional top level spell per day Ability to turn an invocation into additional feats including: Tough, Armour Proficiencies, Magic Initiate, 3 skill proficiencies, bonus to initiative, lucky All their pact spells automatically known/prepared 1 free contact other planes per day Ability to spend the entire combat safely behind total cover using Gaze of Two Minds
Weapon-focused Weapon Mastery Ability to use heavy weapons a Third attack at level 11
Caster-focused Ability to have all pacts boons at once Ability to have any 1st level ritual and any cantrip available on demand.
Plus all of the subclasses got buffed. All without giving up anything. Yet still everyone just wants, more, and more, and more, until the Warlock is better at absolutely everything in the game than any other class. The Warlock should not be a better martial than a martial class (it currently is) and a better more versatile spellcaster than a spellcaster class (it's pretty close already). No you shouldn't be able to customize Warlock so it is just as good as a Wizard, no you shouldn't be able to customize Warlock so it is just as good as a Fighter, because otherwise there is no point having any other class in the game!
If you want lower level slots then you must to give up SR recharge of Pact Magic. If Warlock players want to play like a full spellcaster then you can play like a full spellcaster with ALL your spellslots only recharging on a LR.
Right now, at level 1, the Warlock is arguably better at every aspect of the game than any other class depending on what they choose for their invocation.
Pact of the Tome is a better Caster 5 cantrips vs a Sorcerer's 4 2 spells prepared + 2 rituals known that can be swapped on a SR vs a Wizard's 4 spells prepared or a Sorcerers 2 spells prepared. 2 first level spell slots, that increases to 3 with 1 SR (same as a Wizard) or 4 with 2 SRs (more than any other class in the game)
Lessons of the First Ones is a better Expert 5 skill proficiencies compare to a maximum of 4 for Rogue
Pact of the Blade is a better Warrior Proficiency & Mastery with Martial and Simple melee weapons that they can swap around for a BA giving them effectively proficiency & mastery in all melee weapons in the game at level 1, vs a Fighter has 3 and a Barbarian has 2 Hex + Nick weapons = equal or more damage as any other martial.
It’s no more power creep than weapon masteries and cunning strikes what did this classes give up to gain that power. Nothing.
And warlocks have gotten: All Warlocks: More Invocations 1-2 additional top level spell per day Ability to turn an invocation into additional feats including: Tough, Armour Proficiencies, Magic Initiate, 3 skill proficiencies, bonus to initiative, lucky All their pact spells automatically known/prepared 1 free contact other planes per day Ability to spend the entire combat safely behind total cover using Gaze of Two Minds
Weapon-focused Weapon Mastery Ability to use heavy weapons a Third attack at level 11
Caster-focused Ability to have all pacts boons at once Ability to have any 1st level ritual and any cantrip available on demand.
Plus all of the subclasses got buffed. All without giving up anything. Yet still everyone just wants, more, and more, and more, until the Warlock is better at absolutely everything in the game than any other class. The Warlock should not be a better martial than a martial class (it currently is) and a better more versatile spellcaster than a spellcaster class (it's pretty close already). No you shouldn't be able to customize Warlock so it is just as good as a Wizard, no you shouldn't be able to customize Warlock so it is just as good as a Fighter, because otherwise there is no point having any other class in the game!
If you want lower level slots then you must to give up SR recharge of Pact Magic. If Warlock players want to play like a full spellcaster then you can play like a full spellcaster with ALL your spellslots only recharging on a LR.
Right now, at level 1, the Warlock is arguably better at every aspect of the game than any other class depending on what they choose for their invocation.
Pact of the Tome is a better Caster 5 cantrips vs a Sorcerer's 4 2 spells prepared + 2 rituals known that can be swapped on a SR vs a Wizard's 4 spells prepared or a Sorcerers 2 spells prepared. 2 first level spell slots, that increases to 3 with 1 SR (same as a Wizard) or 4 with 2 SRs (more than any other class in the game)
Lessons of the First Ones is a better Expert 5 skill proficiencies compare to a maximum of 4 for Rogue
Pact of the Blade is a better Warrior Proficiency & Mastery with Martial and Simple melee weapons that they can swap around for a BA giving them effectively proficiency & mastery in all melee weapons in the game at level 1, vs a Fighter has 3 and a Barbarian has 2 Hex + Nick weapons = equal or more damage as any other martial.
You want to run the comparison game. Let’s play, but first let’s admit that half the stuff you named isn’t going to stick and wasn’t what people wanted. And let’s admit being the best at level 1 doesn’t mean crap we can look at the 5e monk for this proof. Monk is the best dpr at level 1 and then falls off after. This Warlock if you take a specific pact has the most spells at level 1 but falls off quickly. Your Hex+ Nick combo requires you to be MAD which contradicts the point of Pact of the Blade. You also get 10 invocations, but not all the invocations, so it’s impossible to take all the good things on any one build. This spell slot for invocations that’s being suggested would limit the amount of other invocations that could be taken. So that’s going to be a big portion of what I’m going to point out, most of what Warlocks got was optional and you can’t get them all at once. The classes I’m about to compare it to have their improvements all the time and gave up nothing to get them.
Barbarians- Primal Knowledge (Str for ability checks), Instinctive Pounce (more in combat mobility), and Weapon Masteries (Graze is broken, I learned this from trying to make a similar feature for monks)
Rogues- Cunning Strikes (I love this feature, but it’s out shines anything else they have designed for any other class for 5eR), Steady Aim(more opportunity to use my cunning strikes)
Sorcerer- Innate Sorcery (the only class that can boost self their spell DC, also I like this feature)
Wizards- Scholar (Wizards are in the expert group now), Memorize Spell (Access to all their known spells everyday and an additional prepared spell. Just prepare all combat spells and use Memorize spell for your OoC utility spells, no need to have sending or transportation circle prepped)
Adding some LR spell slots through invocations if done correctly will not make the Warlock better than the Wizard. But let’s talk about my compromise.
That additional slot on Pact of the tome is awkward since it doesn’t progress and it means multiclass or eldritch adept sorcerers gets 5 1st level spells using it. First make “Pact of” invocations require Warlock multiclass and not a feat. Then drop the spell slot off Pact of the Tome if we can get spell slots via other invocations. Third drop the 3 attacks off thirsting blade at 11th. Life drinker was meant to be the 11th level damage boost and should be brought back up to its 5e damage and level. Invocations don’t scale and if they do then a bunch of other things need to be reworked. Fourth make Magical Cunning an invocation as well.
Is the UA7 much better than the UA5 and 5e Warlock, yes absolutely. The problem is people were asking for more ability to cast their spells. WotC improved it in every way but that one. People were asking for cake and WotC showed up with ice cream and no cake. I would be happy to play the UA7 Warlock, but I favor at will invocations and OoC playstyles. Since I’m normally behind the screen I promote what I think is best for player, and people got tired of Eldritch Blast every combat. It’s okay to let Warlock cast spells without become full casters or half casters.
The problem is people were asking for more ability to cast their spells. WotC improved it in every way but that one.
Because Warlock would be absolutely bonkers broken if it got the same spellcasting capacity of a fullcaster but also SR recharge of that casting ability which is what people are asking for. WotC gave you a balanced option with more spell slots -> the half-caster Warlock and half the community flipped out. So now they gave you 1 additional use of your high level slots instead. This means just counting spellslots alone (ignoring all other class features) Warlocks are equal in power to a Wizard or Sorcerer until level 7, meanwhile they can pick up the Pact of the Blade goodies at the same time and be an equal casters as a Wizard or Sorcerer and an equal (or better) martial as a Fighter at the same time. Honestly, with the UA7 Warlock, I would expect every single character to at least MC warlock because it is so freaking good.
Assumption: 1 SR per adventuring day, 3 combats per adventuring day for a total of 15 rounds of combat, Point Buy Ability Scores. For simplicity let's assume everyone wants to use a Greatsword in melee
Here's a level 8 UA Warlock:
Ability Scores: 12, 14, 16, 8, 8, 16+2+2 Level 1 Feat: Lightly Armoured Level 4 ASI: +2 CHA Level 8 ASI: +2 CHA Invocations: 6 = Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Pact of the Tome, Agonizing Blast, Fiendish Vigor, Lessons of the First Ones: Tough
Spells Prepared: 3 cantrips from warlock spell list + 3 cantrips from any spell list that can be changed on a SR, 9 free choices from warlock spell list, + 8 Pact spells + 2 ritual spells which can be swapped on a SR. = 6-9 cantrips + 20-22 levelled spells (range indicates possible swapping of spells during the day) Spell slots per day: 5 x 4th level slots + 1x 1st level slot = total Sorcery point value: 32
Hit Points: 83 + 24 temporary hit points = 107 total HP Ranged Attack: EB+AB = 2x +9th, 1d10+5 force damage Melee Attack: Flexible choice of any melee weapon as a BA gaining the use of its weapon mastery +9th, +5 damage AC : 17 (two-handed weapon) or 19 (EB / one-handed weapon)
Subclass: Fiend (because its the basic rules one) 13 temporary hit points whenever we kill something or something we are within 10 ft of drops to 0 = conservatively +26 thp = total 133 hp + 5x add 1d10 to an ability check or saving throw
Weapon Mastery: limited to 4 weapons Second Wind : 4 uses = EITHER + 13.5*4 HP, or 4x add 1d10 to an ability check HP: 91 + 54 (use all second wind for HP rather than ability checks) = 145 total hp Spellslots power: total sorcery point value: 0 Extra: 2 uses of Action Surge
Basic combat stats: AC 18 Greatsword: +9th, 2d6+5+1(GWF) + Graze (2.25 attacks per round thanks to Sentinel) + 4 (GWM) + 0.5*4.5 (Charger) Javelin (30ft range): +9th, 1d6+5 x2
Skills : 2
Subclass (let's make it Battlemaster b/c Champion sucks):
+1 skill proficiency + 8d8 bonus damage per day (Note: this is less than a single casting of Fireball by our Fiend lock)
Spells Prepared: 4 cantrips + 12 spells (can be swapped in 1 minute) + 4 school spells + unlimited rituals = 4 cantrips + 18-26 levelled spells Spell slots per day: 3x4th + 3x3rd + 3*2nd + 4*1st = total sorcery point value = 48 (-2 penalty for requirement to use a slot on Mage Armour) HP: 74
not to derail too much, but I'm running into the same issue again that i did with the UA5 medium armor: when did the common warlock find time to pick up all this skill? this time I'm referring to multi-weapons proficiency and mastery. flavor is free so I'd accept if someone told me they traded hands with a devil or the sword is a transformed fey beast urging towards the kill. sure, sounds fine. that's how it works, now tell me why it works.
why does a level one warlock (and dips) get that much versatility and oompf? why not just call up whatever, but no free proficiency. they can spend gold and downtime to earn additional proficiencies in later levels. and the mastery reflects time, dedication, and mastery, right? so I'll accept 'because magic,' but maybe move it back a level or two? something to grow into.
surely devs will dial back the pack of blade multi-weapon proficiency and mastery. surely!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Quoting myself to bring this back up.
The warlock tends to be very ritual forward, and the balance issue that everyone seems to have is that rituals take up "spells learned "space.
Where as I like some rituals as at wills via invocations, rituals as spells you can copy from other books or scrolls and add to your pact of the tome for the same costs as wizards learning spells and likewise not counting to the spells learned.
Plus more versatility to an already insanely versatile class at no real power bump in combat...
Honestly, with something like that, the warlock is looking more like a spell skill monkey more than the bard . (Shhhhhh......)
The spell list needs an overhaul and I think everyone knows it, it's just that the situation is like the class testing: people are going to riot against downgrading of any sort, and have a veritable Christmas list of what they want buffed up....
Look at counterspell...
skill monkey? actually, warlocks already get the borrowed knowledge spell, so yeah. but here's an example of a spell no one wanted to spend a pact slot on ever ever (without first metagaming some short rest guarantees). definitely let warlock cast that as a ritual. more rituals all around! hmm, but who wants to wait around 10 minutes? let's instead make that an at-will invocation which combines borrowed knowledge with some 'ritual' restriction that makes it non-trivial to accomplish under duress, something like... must be upside down for the duration of the spell and skill check. you can roll your eyes, but it's a simple dm-gate: if an upside-down person would complicate the situation then the party is probably overreaching in the first place and deserves what this brings.
just to further poke at more mundane skill monkeys, i'd also add a second invocation (which requires the first) that adds self-cast enhance ability iff the "book worth at least 25G" spell component actually includes pertinent knowledge when using borrowed knowledge in this way.
but, yeah, more ritual casting all around.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
The more everyone talks about it, the more I'm convinced that the right play is to have the spell slots gained via Invocations be limited to 1st and 2nd level slots, and that Pact of the Tome should be a requirement to unlock those additional slots. In addition, any slots gained should be calculated as contributing to overall caster level for the spellcasting feature, so sorcerers can't just dip into Warlock to get a bunch of extra low level spell slots.
I think one of the things that's challenging about Warlocks versus other spellcasters is that they can't really solve little problems with their magic. They've only got a couple spell slots and they're always max level... so casting something like Expeditious retreat, which a Wizard might do casually to solve a problem where they need to cover a lot of ground, is more or less off the table because there's almost always something better to save your spell slots for. By making it an invocation (or series of invocations), the players who want more diverse spellcasting can be satisfied without losing the things that make Warlocks unique and fun in their own way. A pool of low-level slots adds versatility, while Pact slots cover mid-range spells, since even after reaching 5th level slots it can still be worth your effort to cast a 3rd level spell that doesn't upscale. Then higher level casting is covered by Mystic Arcanums, so this gives the option to build Warlock in a way that functions as a more traditional spellcaster, without making it a requirement that every Warlock player now plays that way.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
As far as compromising on the spells per day goes, I'd just like to see the Warlock with a lesser but reasonable # of spells than other casters still built on long rest refresh. I know other folks have floated this too, my version would be something like the list below.
This set up gives the Warlock 1 spell per level / long rest until 6th level, and then begins losing lower level spell slots to get access to higher ones until they max out at 5th. The # of spells between long rests remains at 5 until level 13, where one more 4th level spell is added per day.
Warlocks would also gain their own version of Arcane Recovery, call it Occult Sacrifice. When finishing a long rest a Warlock may spend HD to restore spell levels on a 1:1 basis. Hit Dice spent this way are restored following a long rest as normal.
The table comes out like this:
1 lvl 1 @ 1
2 lvl 1 @ 2
1 lvl 2, 2 lvl 1 @ 3
2 lvl 2, 2 lvl 1 @ 4
1 lvl 3, 2 lvl 2, 2 lvl 1 @ 5
2 lvl 3, 2 lvl 2, 1 lvl 1 @ 6
1 lvl 4, 2 lvl 3, 2 lvl 2 @ 7
2 lvl 4, 2 lvl 3, 1 lvl 2 @ 8
1 lvl 5, 2 lvl 4, 2 lvl 3 @ 9
1 lvl 5, 3 lvl 4, 1 lvl 3 @ 10
2 lvl 5, 3 lvl 4 @ 11
2 lvl 5, 3 lvl 4 @ 12
2 lvl 5, 4 lvl 4 @ 13
2 lvl 5, 4 lvl 4 @ 14
3 lvl 5, 3 lvl 4 @ 15
3 lvl 5, 3 lvl 4 @ 16
4 lvl 5, 2 lvl 4 @ 17
5 lvl 5, 1 lvl 4 @ 18
5 lvl 5, 1 lvl 4 @ 19
6 lvl 5 @ 20
(Edited for clarity and level list errors)
i like warlocks, but spell slots and spells from other classes don't feel particularly right, even if they potentially make the play-through 'more fun.' more fun for who? i guess my questions are...
why do warlocks deserve spell slots? a fighter can't really solve little problems with magic either. however, instead of requesting spell slots i think most magically-minded fighters would take a feat or multiclass dip.
what would warlocks be giving up to gain this? other invocations? then that's power creep.
last, are spells like expeditious retreat utility or defense? is if often that a party has no one else who might want to show off their athleticism, class features, or spells? is this a boon for the party or power creep for the warlock?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Why not just give them Borrowed Knowledge at will? or better yet, just give them an Invocation that is proficiency in all skills available at level 1. But really, why even stop there?
Give them another Invocation that give them the Bard's Magical Secrets as well?
Oh and why not change Master of Myriad forms so it becomes Druid's Wildshape but unlimited use at level 7?
And make Pact of the Tome become just a full Wizard's spellbook at level 5, but actually give them another invocation that lets them copy any spell from any spell list at level 15.
Meanwhile we need to buff Pact of the Chain so the familiar is at least as powerful as a Ranger's Beastmaster Companion and the Paladin's Find Steed, but keep the unique invisibility, hands, and magic resistance.
It’s no more power creep than weapon masteries and cunning strikes what did this classes give up to gain that power. Nothing. This would be a new method for Warlocks to interact with there invocations. Casting a couple of first level combat spells with normal spell slots shouldn’t be all that more powerful than casting first level non combat spells at will (which they already do). The choice will be between at will invocations which might be a spell not be on the spell list, a once a day spell that isn’t on the spell list, some unique warlock thing (devil sight, agonizing blast), or some low level spell slots to cast the spells that are prepared. It’s barely power creep at all as part of invocations. Warlocks are spellcasters and shouldn’t have to multiclass to cast spells. I’ll be the first to say warlocks shouldn’t be full or half casters but to deny them any access to more slots considering the revisions other classes are getting is wrong.
I think that's partly why I think this works best as Invocations instead of as a change to the core Warlock. I feel that the class doesn't necessarily need these spell slots to function, but with just how customizable the class is, making this versatility an option in some way makes sense to me. I think that's the big point I find myself going back to... I don't know about everyone else, but to me, the customization the Warlock offers is the classes most appealing element. So maybe the class isn't the best blaster, or the best martial fighter, or the best utility caster... but with the right invocation choices, you can choose which of those you want to be. I think, for a long time, Warlock was just treated as a pure spellcaster class. It's already got pact slots and cantrips and everything... it is very much a spellcaster class. But the invocations largely were focused on either giving you options to become something else, or just how to focus that caster class in specific ways (most of those ways being, "Make eldritch blast stronger"). But there was very little that just made Warlock better at being a dedicated caster class. I think the logic was... why would you bother? It's already a dedicated spell caster, why make invocations to do the thing the class is already built to do? But the thing is... it's not built that way. Not in the same way other classes do. So in the same way that Pact of the Blade and the Invocations that pair with it can make the Warlock into a solid Gish melee combatant, I think it makes sense to have other invocations that make the class a better versatile spellcaster. I think that having some means of acquiring a limited number of traditional spell slots is the easiest way to accomplish that, but I do admit it's possible there's about a hundred unforeseen circumstances that would make this a bad idea in the long run.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
fella, are you certain all this firepower is necessary for a'huntin deer? them deer ain't askin whether you are current on your taxes are they?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
after some thought, I'd like to add that while a single blatant "hello, I'm the main character" invocation might have been the straw that broke the Agilemind's back, it was amidst a long string of asks with little to no compromise in the thread with 'compromise' in the title. in my defence that invocation was only suggested as a knife in the dark for bards. ugh, bards. I don't think they even play their instruments any more. skill monkeys. ugh.
as for all the spell-slot-warlocks requests, I feel like I get where they're coming from: survey says people like to cast spells. and my kids like cookies better than broccoli. luckily for the health of my children, my dinner table is neither democraticly lead nor crowdsource controlled. similarly, we can make suggestions in this thread but many will be piss in the wind. to have just the slightest chance of influencing events, maybe we could all take more care in this thread to make healthy, balanced suggestions that don't position the warlock class to solve every puzzle and utility situation that might arise. the adventure's success isn't solely on our backs. sometimes going back to town for rope because no one has spider climb prepared is just party of the story.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
The return of Book of Ancient Secrets invocation gives Warlock the best Ritual Casting with DM fiat. That’s already a 5e thing and shouldn’t be a problem.
Borrowed Knowledge as a ritual or at will is a no go.
Spell Slots as invocations should be fair, but implementation and balance needs to be discussed. Maybe my idea of 4 invocations that make you effectively have 1/3 spell caster progression is too much. Maybe it’s just an invocation for two 1st level slots at 5th or 7th and an invocation for one 2nd level slot at 9th or 12th level and that’s it. Anything more becomes unfair. I’m not sure of the exact balance, but one does exist and it not the warlocks can’t get anything that some people are proposing. Their is definitely a place we’re invocations for spell slots is balanced.
I know we disagree a bunch but I am wholly going to come to bat for yurei here.
Bob, different games can run differently and it be absolutely no issues. Mechanically invested players can be some of the most invested role players that exist. And Yurei is absolutely spot on that all classes should have interesting decisions to make in combat that isn’t just “I hit this thing”. It’s not a power gaming thing. It’s a fun and storytelling thing.
D&D 5e is for a diverse group of people who can play different styles of game. You can have the easy, more chill purely story based mode. That’s perfectly fine. You can have the highly customised, home brewed game. No problems. You can have the super hard, mid maxed game and that’s great! And you can have any other type of game too. And none of them mean you can’t tell a good story or enjoy it in a perfectly viable way.
Also the weird focus on other games people play makes no sense. I’ve played stardew valley. That doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy some super hard bash your head against a wall difficult games at times. That’s some weird judgement.
And warlocks have gotten:
All Warlocks:
More Invocations
1-2 additional top level spell per day
Ability to turn an invocation into additional feats including: Tough, Armour Proficiencies, Magic Initiate, 3 skill proficiencies, bonus to initiative, lucky
All their pact spells automatically known/prepared
1 free contact other planes per day
Ability to spend the entire combat safely behind total cover using Gaze of Two Minds
Weapon-focused
Weapon Mastery
Ability to use heavy weapons
a Third attack at level 11
Caster-focused
Ability to have all pacts boons at once
Ability to have any 1st level ritual and any cantrip available on demand.
Plus all of the subclasses got buffed.
All without giving up anything. Yet still everyone just wants, more, and more, and more, until the Warlock is better at absolutely everything in the game than any other class. The Warlock should not be a better martial than a martial class (it currently is) and a better more versatile spellcaster than a spellcaster class (it's pretty close already). No you shouldn't be able to customize Warlock so it is just as good as a Wizard, no you shouldn't be able to customize Warlock so it is just as good as a Fighter, because otherwise there is no point having any other class in the game!
If you want lower level slots then you must to give up SR recharge of Pact Magic. If Warlock players want to play like a full spellcaster then you can play like a full spellcaster with ALL your spellslots only recharging on a LR.
Right now, at level 1, the Warlock is arguably better at every aspect of the game than any other class depending on what they choose for their invocation.
Pact of the Tome is a better Caster
5 cantrips vs a Sorcerer's 4
2 spells prepared + 2 rituals known that can be swapped on a SR vs a Wizard's 4 spells prepared or a Sorcerers 2 spells prepared.
2 first level spell slots, that increases to 3 with 1 SR (same as a Wizard) or 4 with 2 SRs (more than any other class in the game)
Lessons of the First Ones is a better Expert
5 skill proficiencies compare to a maximum of 4 for Rogue
Pact of the Blade is a better Warrior
Proficiency & Mastery with Martial and Simple melee weapons that they can swap around for a BA giving them effectively proficiency & mastery in all melee weapons in the game at level 1, vs a Fighter has 3 and a Barbarian has 2
Hex + Nick weapons = equal or more damage as any other martial.
I think that's a good point, Agilemind... it's kind of easy to forget that the warlock got absolutely JUICED in the latest UA. The spellcasting issue, I think, is still at the forefront of many players' minds mostly because that's the biggest change between this UA and the last one. The reaction to making Warlocks into half-casters was met with a lot of objections by players, but there was definitely still a solid number of players who preferred that system. It's kind of had a car-crash effect on the reaction to the Warlock, where this one big spectacle has distracted many of us from the many less-flashy, but potentially more impactful changes that occurred at the same time.
I think a lot of this debate that's been going on has largely had the modern 5e Warlock in mind as the reference point. I know that's what I've been mostly thinking of... I think, in my head, I sort of told myself that OneDnD Warlock had just reverted back to the 5e Warlock, and treated it that way. But I forgot that Warlocks have been given so much more... more spells prepared automatically, more invocations, more more more. I still do think that getting the option of an invocation or two to provide some low level slots would be nice, I am starting to see that it's really just gravy at this point. It's a fix that would greatly benefit the 5e Warlock, but with everything the Warlock can do now... even just the option to use an Invocation slot to grab a feat... does a lot to make them stand stronger than the class ever has before.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
The Spectre of Death clarifies the mind.
You want to run the comparison game. Let’s play, but first let’s admit that half the stuff you named isn’t going to stick and wasn’t what people wanted. And let’s admit being the best at level 1 doesn’t mean crap we can look at the 5e monk for this proof. Monk is the best dpr at level 1 and then falls off after. This Warlock if you take a specific pact has the most spells at level 1 but falls off quickly. Your Hex+ Nick combo requires you to be MAD which contradicts the point of Pact of the Blade. You also get 10 invocations, but not all the invocations, so it’s impossible to take all the good things on any one build. This spell slot for invocations that’s being suggested would limit the amount of other invocations that could be taken. So that’s going to be a big portion of what I’m going to point out, most of what Warlocks got was optional and you can’t get them all at once. The classes I’m about to compare it to have their improvements all the time and gave up nothing to get them.
Barbarians- Primal Knowledge (Str for ability checks), Instinctive Pounce (more in combat mobility), and Weapon Masteries (Graze is broken, I learned this from trying to make a similar feature for monks)
Fighters- Weapon Masteries, Tactical Mind, Tactical Shift, Studied Attacks
Rogues- Cunning Strikes (I love this feature, but it’s out shines anything else they have designed for any other class for 5eR), Steady Aim(more opportunity to use my cunning strikes)
Sorcerer- Innate Sorcery (the only class that can boost self their spell DC, also I like this feature)
Wizards- Scholar (Wizards are in the expert group now), Memorize Spell (Access to all their known spells everyday and an additional prepared spell. Just prepare all combat spells and use Memorize spell for your OoC utility spells, no need to have sending or transportation circle prepped)
Adding some LR spell slots through invocations if done correctly will not make the Warlock better than the Wizard. But let’s talk about my compromise.
That additional slot on Pact of the tome is awkward since it doesn’t progress and it means multiclass or eldritch adept sorcerers gets 5 1st level spells using it. First make “Pact of” invocations require Warlock multiclass and not a feat. Then drop the spell slot off Pact of the Tome if we can get spell slots via other invocations. Third drop the 3 attacks off thirsting blade at 11th. Life drinker was meant to be the 11th level damage boost and should be brought back up to its 5e damage and level. Invocations don’t scale and if they do then a bunch of other things need to be reworked. Fourth make Magical Cunning an invocation as well.
Is the UA7 much better than the UA5 and 5e Warlock, yes absolutely. The problem is people were asking for more ability to cast their spells. WotC improved it in every way but that one. People were asking for cake and WotC showed up with ice cream and no cake. I would be happy to play the UA7 Warlock, but I favor at will invocations and OoC playstyles. Since I’m normally behind the screen I promote what I think is best for player, and people got tired of Eldritch Blast every combat. It’s okay to let Warlock cast spells without become full casters or half casters.
Because Warlock would be absolutely bonkers broken if it got the same spellcasting capacity of a fullcaster but also SR recharge of that casting ability which is what people are asking for. WotC gave you a balanced option with more spell slots -> the half-caster Warlock and half the community flipped out. So now they gave you 1 additional use of your high level slots instead. This means just counting spellslots alone (ignoring all other class features) Warlocks are equal in power to a Wizard or Sorcerer until level 7, meanwhile they can pick up the Pact of the Blade goodies at the same time and be an equal casters as a Wizard or Sorcerer and an equal (or better) martial as a Fighter at the same time. Honestly, with the UA7 Warlock, I would expect every single character to at least MC warlock because it is so freaking good.
Assumption: 1 SR per adventuring day, 3 combats per adventuring day for a total of 15 rounds of combat, Point Buy Ability Scores. For simplicity let's assume everyone wants to use a Greatsword in melee
Here's a level 8 UA Warlock:
Ability Scores: 12, 14, 16, 8, 8, 16+2+2
Level 1 Feat: Lightly Armoured
Level 4 ASI: +2 CHA
Level 8 ASI: +2 CHA
Invocations: 6 = Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Pact of the Tome, Agonizing Blast, Fiendish Vigor, Lessons of the First Ones: Tough
Spells Prepared: 3 cantrips from warlock spell list + 3 cantrips from any spell list that can be changed on a SR, 9 free choices from warlock spell list, + 8 Pact spells + 2 ritual spells which can be swapped on a SR.
= 6-9 cantrips + 20-22 levelled spells (range indicates possible swapping of spells during the day)
Spell slots per day: 5 x 4th level slots + 1x 1st level slot = total Sorcery point value: 32
Hit Points: 83 + 24 temporary hit points = 107 total HP
Ranged Attack: EB+AB = 2x +9th, 1d10+5 force damage
Melee Attack: Flexible choice of any melee weapon as a BA gaining the use of its weapon mastery +9th, +5 damage
AC : 17 (two-handed weapon) or 19 (EB / one-handed weapon)
Basic Combat Stats:
AC: 17
Greatsword: +9th, 2d6+5 damage + Graze (2x per Action)
EB (range 120 ft): +9 th, 1d10+5 damage (2x per Action)
Skills: 2
Subclass: Fiend (because its the basic rules one)
13 temporary hit points whenever we kill something or something we are within 10 ft of drops to 0 = conservatively +26 thp = total 133 hp
+ 5x add 1d10 to an ability check or saving throw
Here's a level 8 UA Fighter:
Ability Scores: 17+3, 10, 16, 11,12, 8
Level 1 Feat: Tough
Level 4 ASI: GWM
Level 6 ASI: Charger
Level 8 ASI: Sentinel
Weapon Mastery: limited to 4 weapons
Second Wind : 4 uses = EITHER + 13.5*4 HP, or 4x add 1d10 to an ability check
HP: 91 + 54 (use all second wind for HP rather than ability checks) = 145 total hp
Spellslots power: total sorcery point value: 0
Extra: 2 uses of Action Surge
Basic combat stats:
AC 18
Greatsword: +9th, 2d6+5+1(GWF) + Graze (2.25 attacks per round thanks to Sentinel) + 4 (GWM) + 0.5*4.5 (Charger)
Javelin (30ft range): +9th, 1d6+5 x2
Skills : 2
Subclass (let's make it Battlemaster b/c Champion sucks):
+1 skill proficiency
+ 8d8 bonus damage per day (Note: this is less than a single casting of Fireball by our Fiend lock)
Here's a level 8 UA Wizard:
Ability Scores: 8, 14, 16, 16+4,12, 8
Level 1 Feat: Tough
Level 4 ASI: +2 INT
Level 8 ASI: +2 INT
Spells Prepared: 4 cantrips + 12 spells (can be swapped in 1 minute) + 4 school spells + unlimited rituals = 4 cantrips + 18-26 levelled spells
Spell slots per day: 3x4th + 3x3rd + 3*2nd + 4*1st = total sorcery point value = 48 (-2 penalty for requirement to use a slot on Mage Armour)
HP: 74
Basic Combat Stats:
AC: 15 (mage armour)
Shocking Grasp: +9th, 2d8 lightning damage
Firebolt: +9th, 2d10 fire damage
Skills: 2 (1 Expertise)
Subclass: Abjurer (because Evoker isn't in the newest UA)
Ward extra hp: 21 = total 95 hp
In summary: The warlock simultaneously has:
not to derail too much, but I'm running into the same issue again that i did with the UA5 medium armor: when did the common warlock find time to pick up all this skill? this time I'm referring to multi-weapons proficiency and mastery. flavor is free so I'd accept if someone told me they traded hands with a devil or the sword is a transformed fey beast urging towards the kill. sure, sounds fine. that's how it works, now tell me why it works.
why does a level one warlock (and dips) get that much versatility and oompf? why not just call up whatever, but no free proficiency. they can spend gold and downtime to earn additional proficiencies in later levels. and the mastery reflects time, dedication, and mastery, right? so I'll accept 'because magic,' but maybe move it back a level or two? something to grow into.
surely devs will dial back the pack of blade multi-weapon proficiency and mastery. surely!
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!