I have read in this thread that there are no skills associated with CON. And there is a reason for that. There really could be, but that would make the stat even more desirable. CON passively affects everyone. If you assign it a skill, I don't know, athletics, that would give more reasons for players to forget other stats in favor of cons.
The stats are really not balanced in terms of usefulness. Stats like DEX or CON are generally more useful than STR or INT. That's why it's a bad idea to favor more CON, for example by assigning it a skill. Or turning it into the single ability dependency of a class, which is what we're talking about here.
So let’s just look at what Con casting would look like on each class.
Artificer- While this is one of the strangest Con casters for me the potential is there. You inject a piece of your own vitality into everything you create or you channel the weaves raw power into your inventions through your craftsmanship. Some better writer can come up with the lore excuse. Any features that scale off Int probably get left scaling off Int or some other mental stat. Battle Smith is the one subclass I would have problem with because it’s attacks wit weapons other than those created by a feature scale off its Spellcasting stat. That would need to change.
Bard- A Con Casting Bard is truly picking what it wants to be good at. They aren’t all the face of the party. With each spell you cast you endure the use of the echoes of creation that would destroy most who attempted to use them. Mechanics a question would be would bardic inspiration become con based or stay charisma based. Either seems okay to me.
Cleric- A Con cleric is vessel for divine power that would destroy a feeble bodied host. They a filled with divine energy by their Deities and channel it into the world. I’m not really worried about anything mechanically.
Druid- A Con Druid channels primal energies into their bodies allowing them to transform. They also can project those energies to cast spells. Mechanically I’m fine with everything I can think of right now.
Paladin- A Con Paladin cast through sheer conviction to your oath, you harness divine energy into your own body to use against your foes or bring aid to your companions. Paladin might need to figure out how to adjust Aura of protection. Technically Hexblade already broke it, so Con casting can’t break it any more. It should probably be hard locked to half your proficiency bonus.
Ranger- A Con Ranger learns to store primal energy within there bodies. I don’t see a mechanical issue with Ranger right now.
Sorcerer- A con Sorcerer would read like, Arcane energy pours from every inch of your body. You are the source of your magical power. My only mechanical troubles are Dragon’s additional hp and AC calculation.
Warlock- A con Warlock must contain the power granted by their Patron. By your own choice or some cosmic mistake you are the vessel of other worldly power. My mechanical fears are obviously Pact of the Blade which is already a problem as Cha.
Wizard- A Con Wizard would just be required to channel the Arcane energies through there own bodies. You have learn to be a conduit for the arcane energies. I can’t think of any mechanical concerns. I would still have bonus spells prepared scale off Int.
Honestly for me I would only have Con casting as a flexible Stat option. Really Flexible casting stats I would save for the DMG and be optional like Flanking rules
I honestly wouldn't mind changing the stats for classes going into the Dungeon Master's Workshop, since that avoids most of the issues I have with universal flexible casting. I still don't think that Constitution should be an option, though. I've yet to be convinced that it would be more balanced than it seems. No great loss there, since the flavor in pretty much everything you've listed is weak, except Sorcerer.
I actually like the prospect of a Constitution Sorcerer, in part because it means that pretty much any character could multiclass into it and not suck at it, which fits Sorcerer's place as the only class where you basically don't have to practice, and the one that could theoretically be inflicted on any adventurer who's around certain powerful magics. Still, balance is a major concern. I just can't imagine a balanced Constitution full caster.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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And what do you think of a class with "like spells" features based on CON? Or with a very reduced spell list. That would make it much easier to balance with other classes.
That would be fine, but it would just be more work for the developers. Why make a D&D version of the keneticist when you just keep the spell system you have in place and just use that. While I’m open to universal mental casting stat, as to me none of it really matters. I’m not 100% enthusiastic on universal Con casting stat. I would still allow it because someone might have better lore for it than me. I would make my player explain it to me and I won’t accept, “I want to be a Con Druid so I can Multi class Barbarian.” I would accept any lore reason they came up with. Honestly for Con I only feel strongly about 3 classes having it as an option. Sorcerer 100%, Druid 70%, and Warlock 50%. All other classes are barely 10% of enthusiasm for them getting access to Con as a Spellcasting Stat. Also not if it is just an optional I wouldn’t move other features to Con. So a Con Bard would have better hp, but less bardic inspirations. A con wizard has more hp, but less spells per day. If it was up to me the PHB would have Universal flexibile mental casting stats for all and the Sorcerer would also have Con as an option. Then the DMG would have Universal flexible Con casting stat for everyone. I’m sure a lot of people are happy it’s not up to me. I would be okay with universal flexible casting stats just being in the DMG and up to the DM what Stats they would allow. It would be nice is the PHB gave all classes a choice of two possible casting Stats. I’m sure that would cause a bunch of fights as well. Especially since Int would be most classes secondary possible stat. Artificer- Int and Wis Bard- Cha and Int Cleric- Wis and Int Druid- Wis and Con Paladin- Cha and Wis Ranger- Wis and Int Socerer- this one is hard for me because I truly believe everything works for them. Cha and Con Warlock- While I like the Wis warlock, I know how to keep people happy. Cha and Int Wizard- Int and Cha
As a homebrew you can do whatever you want, of course. There are homebrew versions out there of sorcerers whose spell casting ability is CON. The problem here would be if the official design included a broken spellcaster. But what everyone does at their table is up to them.
The issue I have with con casting is that it's going down the road of mixing up physical and mental stats in a way that allows for/encourages a lot of munchkin builds and opens the gate for arguments for allowing things like a charisma fighter that you can now cross with a charisma bladesinger or whatever. Why should we start to allow flexible casting stats and not flexible melee/defense stats after all? I can make lore arguments for wisdom as my AC boosting stat (I'm really good at anticipation), int as my attack stat (I have an ability to pick weak spots like Sherlock), etc ..
As a homebrew you can do whatever you want, of course. There are homebrew versions out there of sorcerers whose spell casting ability is CON. The problem here would be if the official design included a broken spellcaster. But what everyone does at their table is up to them.
define broken because there really is nothing broken about giving up skill growth for HP growth/concentration saves, unless you play with no skill checks. (Which is ill advised) Casters general versatility and certain spells power is way more of an issue than trading skill proficiency for combat survivability.
To me broken does not equal slighlty better in specific situations, and worse in other specific situations.
I have played many martials with generally low skills, and it matters. And even those have at least one strong skill stat.
The real key is whether constitution is going to tie into the fantasy and gameplay of the class
That would be fine, but it would just be more work for the developers. Why make a D&D version of the keneticist when you just keep the spell system you have in place and just use that. While I’m open to universal mental casting stat, as to me none of it really matters. I’m not 100% enthusiastic on universal Con casting stat. I would still allow it because someone might have better lore for it than me. I would make my player explain it to me and I won’t accept, “I want to be a Con Druid so I can Multi class Barbarian.” I would accept any lore reason they came up with. Honestly for Con I only feel strongly about 3 classes having it as an option. Sorcerer 100%, Druid 70%, and Warlock 50%. All other classes are barely 10% of enthusiasm for them getting access to Con as a Spellcasting Stat. Also not if it is just an optional I wouldn’t move other features to Con. So a Con Bard would have better hp, but less bardic inspirations. A con wizard has more hp, but less spells per day. If it was up to me the PHB would have Universal flexibile mental casting stats for all and the Sorcerer would also have Con as an option. Then the DMG would have Universal flexible Con casting stat for everyone. I’m sure a lot of people are happy it’s not up to me. I would be okay with universal flexible casting stats just being in the DMG and up to the DM what Stats they would allow. It would be nice is the PHB gave all classes a choice of two possible casting Stats. I’m sure that would cause a bunch of fights as well. Especially since Int would be most classes secondary possible stat. Artificer- Int and Wis Bard- Cha and Int Cleric- Wis and Int Druid- Wis and Con Paladin- Cha and Wis Ranger- Wis and Int Socerer- this one is hard for me because I truly believe everything works for them. Cha and Con Warlock- While I like the Wis warlock, I know how to keep people happy. Cha and Int Wizard- Int and Cha
At least that’s how I would do the spread.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I think this really comes down to what you think class design is about. The developers think the main stats for each class are as important in the class design as the combat. They want every wizard to be intelligent, every barb to be strong, every paladin to be charismatic. They are trying to create tropes, and build other aspects of the class into this. Lore ties in, features, etc. For some classes, it seems its more of a rule they follow, than a strong part of class identity (warlock)
You prefer player control, and want greater variety of characters. Which is fair, but sort of in opposition to their concept of what a class is. Its more of high level concept for experienced players than a baseline, I might put flex in the dmg as optional, but not in the phb as the baseline experience, for newbies to give themselves a harder time.
As a homebrew you can do whatever you want, of course. There are homebrew versions out there of sorcerers whose spell casting ability is CON. The problem here would be if the official design included a broken spellcaster. But what everyone does at their table is up to them.
define broken because there really is nothing broken about giving up skill growth for HP growth/concentration saves, unless you play with no skill checks. (Which is ill advised) Casters general versatility and certain spells power is way more of an issue than trading skill proficiency for combat survivability.
To me broken does not equal slighlty better in specific situations, and worse in other specific situations.
I have played many martials with generally low skills, and it matters. And even those have at least one strong skill stat.
The real key is whether constitution is going to tie into the fantasy and gameplay of the class
A broken class is when it gives rise to munchkin characters who are good, at least decent, at everything.
A spell caster that only needs CON is broken. He has HP, he can attack with a weapon if he wanted to (true strike), he can have saves on almost everything that matters with feats (he has room for that) or/and with racial traits (advantage). Skill checks? Borrowed Knowledge or other magic tricks. And a long etc. of things he can do with his magic. And, furthermore, it's the most SAD class in the game. I can't think of anything more broken, honestly.
Broken impacts game play. The character you describe is not broken, it's well rounded.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
There are two ways that Constitution could work as a casting stat: 1. If the spell list was *heavily* curated, to limit utility and "power", and have it make sense. For example, self-only shape-shifting, heals, maybe a touch-based debuff (contagion?). 2. The spellcasting is heavily self-punishing. Again, the spell list needs be limited, but not as limited as above. Burn self to burn an enemy for more. Must not have access to heals.
As a homebrew you can do whatever you want, of course. There are homebrew versions out there of sorcerers whose spell casting ability is CON. The problem here would be if the official design included a broken spellcaster. But what everyone does at their table is up to them.
define broken because there really is nothing broken about giving up skill growth for HP growth/concentration saves, unless you play with no skill checks. (Which is ill advised) Casters general versatility and certain spells power is way more of an issue than trading skill proficiency for combat survivability.
To me broken does not equal slighlty better in specific situations, and worse in other specific situations.
I have played many martials with generally low skills, and it matters. And even those have at least one strong skill stat.
The real key is whether constitution is going to tie into the fantasy and gameplay of the class
A broken class is when it gives rise to munchkin characters who are good, at least decent, at everything.
A spell caster that only needs CON is broken. He has HP, he can attack with a weapon if he wanted to (true strike), he can have saves on almost everything that matters with feats (he has room for that) or/and with racial traits (advantage). Skill checks? Borrowed Knowledge or other magic tricks. And a long etc. of things he can do with his magic. And, furthermore, it's the most SAD class in the game. I can't think of anything more broken, honestly.
Being SAD doesnt equal broken or OP. And munchkins aren't going to sweat con, their goal is to minimize defense in exchange for power. In fact, they would probably be annoyed with a class that makes them take more defense then they needed
being broken or OP is in relation to other build's power.
Having saves on everything they want is available to all casters, con as spell casting stat has nothing to do with this.
attacking with a weapon as a cantrip is not OP, I already told you true strike damage does not equal toll of the dead damage. Cantrip damage does not equal martial damage(lack of extra attack and other bonuses. true strike is inferior to booming blade and green flame blade.
borrowed knowledge is a spell, which uses a resource, and it gives you proficiency, not base stat. the cha 20 sorcerer is still going to have +5 +PB to their persuation rolls, while the Con sorc has +2+PB.
How much SAD matters depends on your class and build. The big deal is going from needing two offensive stats, to needing one offensive stat. HP is not that important to most players, especially casters. Going from needing 3 stats to two stats is a big deal, going from needing two to one isnt really, because you get enough base resources for 2 stats.
the only actual difference this makes trading HP and concentration saves for skill bonuses. The fact that casters choose skill bonuses over con quite commonly, suggests this is not nearly as OP as you feel right now.
Show me any Con caster build, and I'll show you its mirror, to whom the only difference is trading some hp/concentration saves for some skill bonus chance.
And no caster really needs it, they all have excellent survivability, if they want it. The least survivable classes are monk, rogue. And the ones above them are far above them. a 20 con shield using non reckless barbarian is less survivable than a shield spell, blink sorcerer.
The issue I have with con casting is that it's going down the road of mixing up physical and mental stats in a way that allows for/encourages a lot of munchkin builds and opens the gate for arguments for allowing things like a charisma fighter that you can now cross with a charisma bladesinger or whatever. Why should we start to allow flexible casting stats and not flexible melee/defense stats after all? I can make lore arguments for wisdom as my AC boosting stat (I'm really good at anticipation), int as my attack stat (I have an ability to pick weak spots like Sherlock), etc ..
Maybe you haven’t played for a few years but Hexblade Warlock and Battle Smith Artificer already do exactly what you are talking about, and I already mentioned I wouldn’t allow casting Stats to handle weapon attacks under most situations. The fact that Bladesinger doesn’t use Int for it’s weapon attacks makes me like the class more than the previously mentioned two. While I do like the Armorer Artificer using Int for its special weapons granted by it’s class features. I also acknowledge not everyone shares my opinion and there are those who would love to play using Int for there dagger attack like Sherlock Holmes finding weak points. Also Flexible offense stats already exist. It’s called finesse and/or light weapons. They let you use the two physical attacking stats. Their is also the Dhampir that lets you attack with Con if you use their bite attack. Honestly it’s a matter of where do you decide to put your imaginary line in the imaginary sand. There is technically no wrong answer. As of right now WotC has the line at one casting stat per Class. This is fine and the game can stay this way and people will continue to play it. At some point Gary and Al who followed decided not to have Con as a casting stat. It’s not a balance issue. Anything can be “balanced.” Also let’s not pretend that 5e is really “Balanced” right now. Or that any edition other than 4e was “Balanced” for that matter.
Broken impacts game play. The character you describe is not broken, it's well rounded.
Doesn't a character good at everything impact the gamplay? Okay.
they arent good at everything. they are inferior at skills.
lets take a sorcerer and run through the possibilities.
CHA main stat options:
CHA 20 Con 20 3feats = highest hp, highest Spells, loses out on 2 possible feats highest CHA skill bonus
CHA 20 Con 14 5 feats = highest Spells, has 5 feats, lower HP lower concentation checks highest CHA skill bonus
Con as main stat options:
CON 20 Con 20 3 feats =highest hp, highest Spells, loses out on 2 possible feats highest CHA skill bonus (Same as cha first option.
CON 20 CHA 14 5 feats. = highest hp, Highest spells, 5 feats, lose out on CHA checks/abilities/skills.
All the other things you mention are available to both versions of the classes. All of these guys will be able to do full damage with weapons via true strike.shillegah, all of them can get skill proficiency with spells, all of them can take the same feats.
Also note, the CHA main sorcerer has the option of picking another high stat that isnt defensive. Like they could be CHA 20 WIS 20, and be good at both wis checks and cha checks. Or they can BE CHA+DEX which fits the concept of bard, a dextrous influencer. A Con spell casting cast cannot do those things, they have part of their power budget always tied to defense.
your whole theory comes down to con being more important than skills, but the popular builds for casters suggests this is not the case. They choose skills and utility over con again and again.
Pathfinder has the Kineticist class, a Con pseudo-caster which is basically something like a warlock that casts elemental Eldritch Blast, adding effects and shaping the blast by accepting burnout - reducing their max HP. If they want to cast a blast as a cone or wall, add an effect like trip or burn, or empower/maximize/quicken the effect, they'd have to sacrifice some of their high durability. That's actually a way better design than DnD warlock.
Broken impacts game play. The character you describe is not broken, it's well rounded.
Doesn't a character good at everything impact the gamplay? Okay.
no, not really. And being good at attacks and con saves is hardly good at everything
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Broken impacts game play. The character you describe is not broken, it's well rounded.
Doesn't a character good at everything impact the gamplay? Okay.
they arent good at everything. they are inferior at skills.
lets take a sorcerer and run through the possibilities.
CHA main stat options:
CHA 20 Con 20 3feats = highest hp, highest Spells, loses out on 2 possible feats highest CHA skill bonus
CHA 20 Con 14 5 feats = highest Spells, has 5 feats, lower HP lower concentation checks highest CHA skill bonus
Con as main stat options:
CON 20 Con 20 3 feats =highest hp, highest Spells, loses out on 2 possible feats highest CHA skill bonus (Same as cha first option.
CON 20 CHA 14 5 feats. = highest hp, Highest spells, 5 feats, lose out on CHA checks/abilities/skills.
All the other things you mention are available to both versions of the classes. All of these guys will be able to do full damage with weapons via true strike.shillegah, all of them can get skill proficiency with spells, all of them can take the same feats.
Also note, the CHA main sorcerer has the option of picking another high stat that isnt defensive. Like they could be CHA 20 WIS 20, and be good at both wis checks and cha checks. Or they can BE CHA+DEX which fits the concept of bard, a dextrous influencer. A Con spell casting cast cannot do those things, they have part of their power budget always tied to defense.
your whole theory comes down to con being more important than skills, but the popular builds for casters suggests this is not the case. They choose skills and utility over con again and again.
You're not wrong my dude. Con is the tertiary skill for most of my characters. Secondary on dex classes. A sorc would arguably be worse, because I'd not need to pump my charisma. In fact, I would be punished for doing so, so I would lose out on my skills in favor of a few hit points that I rarely need anyways.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Pathfinder has the Kineticist class, a Con pseudo-caster which is basically something like a warlock that casts elemental Eldritch Blast, adding effects and shaping the blast by accepting burnout - reducing their max HP. If they want to cast a blast as a cone or wall, add an effect like trip or burn, or empower/maximize/quicken the effect, they'd have to sacrifice some of their high durability. That's actually a way better design than DnD warlock.
A CON-based spellcaster-like class would be much easier to balance with the rest of the game's options. And yes, I had never thought about it in that sense but the way the kineticist work can be compared to the 5e warlock. Obviously thematically its equivalent is the Witch, but mechanically they are very different. A warlock mechanically inspired by the kinecist but with a warlock flavor would be interesting.
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I have read in this thread that there are no skills associated with CON. And there is a reason for that. There really could be, but that would make the stat even more desirable. CON passively affects everyone. If you assign it a skill, I don't know, athletics, that would give more reasons for players to forget other stats in favor of cons.
The stats are really not balanced in terms of usefulness. Stats like DEX or CON are generally more useful than STR or INT. That's why it's a bad idea to favor more CON, for example by assigning it a skill. Or turning it into the single ability dependency of a class, which is what we're talking about here.
I honestly wouldn't mind changing the stats for classes going into the Dungeon Master's Workshop, since that avoids most of the issues I have with universal flexible casting. I still don't think that Constitution should be an option, though. I've yet to be convinced that it would be more balanced than it seems. No great loss there, since the flavor in pretty much everything you've listed is weak, except Sorcerer.
I actually like the prospect of a Constitution Sorcerer, in part because it means that pretty much any character could multiclass into it and not suck at it, which fits Sorcerer's place as the only class where you basically don't have to practice, and the one that could theoretically be inflicted on any adventurer who's around certain powerful magics. Still, balance is a major concern. I just can't imagine a balanced Constitution full caster.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
And what do you think of a class with "like spells" features based on CON?
Or with a very reduced spell list. That would make it much easier to balance with other classes.
That would be fine, but it would just be more work for the developers. Why make a D&D version of the keneticist when you just keep the spell system you have in place and just use that.
While I’m open to universal mental casting stat, as to me none of it really matters. I’m not 100% enthusiastic on universal Con casting stat. I would still allow it because someone might have better lore for it than me. I would make my player explain it to me and I won’t accept, “I want to be a Con Druid so I can Multi class Barbarian.” I would accept any lore reason they came up with. Honestly for Con I only feel strongly about 3 classes having it as an option. Sorcerer 100%, Druid 70%, and Warlock 50%. All other classes are barely 10% of enthusiasm for them getting access to Con as a Spellcasting Stat. Also not if it is just an optional I wouldn’t move other features to Con. So a Con Bard would have better hp, but less bardic inspirations. A con wizard has more hp, but less spells per day. If it was up to me the PHB would have Universal flexibile mental casting stats for all and the Sorcerer would also have Con as an option. Then the DMG would have Universal flexible Con casting stat for everyone. I’m sure a lot of people are happy it’s not up to me. I would be okay with universal flexible casting stats just being in the DMG and up to the DM what Stats they would allow. It would be nice is the PHB gave all classes a choice of two possible casting Stats. I’m sure that would cause a bunch of fights as well. Especially since Int would be most classes secondary possible stat.
Artificer- Int and Wis
Bard- Cha and Int
Cleric- Wis and Int
Druid- Wis and Con
Paladin- Cha and Wis
Ranger- Wis and Int
Socerer- this one is hard for me because I truly believe everything works for them. Cha and Con
Warlock- While I like the Wis warlock, I know how to keep people happy. Cha and Int
Wizard- Int and Cha
At least that’s how I would do the spread.
As a homebrew you can do whatever you want, of course. There are homebrew versions out there of sorcerers whose spell casting ability is CON. The problem here would be if the official design included a broken spellcaster. But what everyone does at their table is up to them.
The issue I have with con casting is that it's going down the road of mixing up physical and mental stats in a way that allows for/encourages a lot of munchkin builds and opens the gate for arguments for allowing things like a charisma fighter that you can now cross with a charisma bladesinger or whatever. Why should we start to allow flexible casting stats and not flexible melee/defense stats after all? I can make lore arguments for wisdom as my AC boosting stat (I'm really good at anticipation), int as my attack stat (I have an ability to pick weak spots like Sherlock), etc ..
define broken because there really is nothing broken about giving up skill growth for HP growth/concentration saves, unless you play with no skill checks. (Which is ill advised) Casters general versatility and certain spells power is way more of an issue than trading skill proficiency for combat survivability.
To me broken does not equal slighlty better in specific situations, and worse in other specific situations.
I have played many martials with generally low skills, and it matters. And even those have at least one strong skill stat.
The real key is whether constitution is going to tie into the fantasy and gameplay of the class
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I think this really comes down to what you think class design is about. The developers think the main stats for each class are as important in the class design as the combat. They want every wizard to be intelligent, every barb to be strong, every paladin to be charismatic. They are trying to create tropes, and build other aspects of the class into this. Lore ties in, features, etc. For some classes, it seems its more of a rule they follow, than a strong part of class identity (warlock)
You prefer player control, and want greater variety of characters. Which is fair, but sort of in opposition to their concept of what a class is. Its more of high level concept for experienced players than a baseline, I might put flex in the dmg as optional, but not in the phb as the baseline experience, for newbies to give themselves a harder time.
A broken class is when it gives rise to munchkin characters who are good, at least decent, at everything.
A spell caster that only needs CON is broken. He has HP, he can attack with a weapon if he wanted to (true strike), he can have saves on almost everything that matters with feats (he has room for that) or/and with racial traits (advantage). Skill checks? Borrowed Knowledge or other magic tricks. And a long etc. of things he can do with his magic. And, furthermore, it's the most SAD class in the game. I can't think of anything more broken, honestly.
Broken impacts game play. The character you describe is not broken, it's well rounded.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
There are two ways that Constitution could work as a casting stat:
1. If the spell list was *heavily* curated, to limit utility and "power", and have it make sense. For example, self-only shape-shifting, heals, maybe a touch-based debuff (contagion?).
2. The spellcasting is heavily self-punishing. Again, the spell list needs be limited, but not as limited as above. Burn self to burn an enemy for more. Must not have access to heals.
Being SAD doesnt equal broken or OP. And munchkins aren't going to sweat con, their goal is to minimize defense in exchange for power. In fact, they would probably be annoyed with a class that makes them take more defense then they needed
being broken or OP is in relation to other build's power.
Having saves on everything they want is available to all casters, con as spell casting stat has nothing to do with this.
attacking with a weapon as a cantrip is not OP, I already told you true strike damage does not equal toll of the dead damage. Cantrip damage does not equal martial damage(lack of extra attack and other bonuses. true strike is inferior to booming blade and green flame blade.
borrowed knowledge is a spell, which uses a resource, and it gives you proficiency, not base stat. the cha 20 sorcerer is still going to have +5 +PB to their persuation rolls, while the Con sorc has +2+PB.
How much SAD matters depends on your class and build. The big deal is going from needing two offensive stats, to needing one offensive stat. HP is not that important to most players, especially casters. Going from needing 3 stats to two stats is a big deal, going from needing two to one isnt really, because you get enough base resources for 2 stats.
the only actual difference this makes trading HP and concentration saves for skill bonuses. The fact that casters choose skill bonuses over con quite commonly, suggests this is not nearly as OP as you feel right now.
Show me any Con caster build, and I'll show you its mirror, to whom the only difference is trading some hp/concentration saves for some skill bonus chance.
And no caster really needs it, they all have excellent survivability, if they want it. The least survivable classes are monk, rogue. And the ones above them are far above them. a 20 con shield using non reckless barbarian is less survivable than a shield spell, blink sorcerer.
its far from OP.
Maybe you haven’t played for a few years but Hexblade Warlock and Battle Smith Artificer already do exactly what you are talking about, and I already mentioned I wouldn’t allow casting Stats to handle weapon attacks under most situations. The fact that Bladesinger doesn’t use Int for it’s weapon attacks makes me like the class more than the previously mentioned two. While I do like the Armorer Artificer using Int for its special weapons granted by it’s class features. I also acknowledge not everyone shares my opinion and there are those who would love to play using Int for there dagger attack like Sherlock Holmes finding weak points.
Also Flexible offense stats already exist. It’s called finesse and/or light weapons. They let you use the two physical attacking stats. Their is also the Dhampir that lets you attack with Con if you use their bite attack.
Honestly it’s a matter of where do you decide to put your imaginary line in the imaginary sand. There is technically no wrong answer. As of right now WotC has the line at one casting stat per Class. This is fine and the game can stay this way and people will continue to play it. At some point Gary and Al who followed decided not to have Con as a casting stat. It’s not a balance issue. Anything can be “balanced.” Also let’s not pretend that 5e is really “Balanced” right now. Or that any edition other than 4e was “Balanced” for that matter.
Doesn't a character good at everything impact the gamplay? Okay.
they arent good at everything. they are inferior at skills.
lets take a sorcerer and run through the possibilities.
CHA main stat options:
CHA 20 Con 20 3feats = highest hp, highest Spells, loses out on 2 possible feats highest CHA skill bonus
CHA 20 Con 14 5 feats = highest Spells, has 5 feats, lower HP lower concentation checks highest CHA skill bonus
Con as main stat options:
CON 20 Con 20 3 feats =highest hp, highest Spells, loses out on 2 possible feats highest CHA skill bonus (Same as cha first option.
CON 20 CHA 14 5 feats. = highest hp, Highest spells, 5 feats, lose out on CHA checks/abilities/skills.
All the other things you mention are available to both versions of the classes. All of these guys will be able to do full damage with weapons via true strike.shillegah, all of them can get skill proficiency with spells, all of them can take the same feats.
Also note, the CHA main sorcerer has the option of picking another high stat that isnt defensive. Like they could be CHA 20 WIS 20, and be good at both wis checks and cha checks. Or they can BE CHA+DEX which fits the concept of bard, a dextrous influencer. A Con spell casting cast cannot do those things, they have part of their power budget always tied to defense.
your whole theory comes down to con being more important than skills, but the popular builds for casters suggests this is not the case. They choose skills and utility over con again and again.
There’s “well rounded,” and then there’s “well rounded.” Kinda like, “it’s quiet, a little too quiet.”
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Pathfinder has the Kineticist class, a Con pseudo-caster which is basically something like a warlock that casts elemental Eldritch Blast, adding effects and shaping the blast by accepting burnout - reducing their max HP. If they want to cast a blast as a cone or wall, add an effect like trip or burn, or empower/maximize/quicken the effect, they'd have to sacrifice some of their high durability. That's actually a way better design than DnD warlock.
no, not really. And being good at attacks and con saves is hardly good at everything
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You're not wrong my dude. Con is the tertiary skill for most of my characters. Secondary on dex classes. A sorc would arguably be worse, because I'd not need to pump my charisma. In fact, I would be punished for doing so, so I would lose out on my skills in favor of a few hit points that I rarely need anyways.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
A CON-based spellcaster-like class would be much easier to balance with the rest of the game's options. And yes, I had never thought about it in that sense but the way the kineticist work can be compared to the 5e warlock. Obviously thematically its equivalent is the Witch, but mechanically they are very different. A warlock mechanically inspired by the kinecist but with a warlock flavor would be interesting.