I get what you are saying and I largely agree. But you’re still talking about personal preference. Not objective fact. Some people like OoC abilities. They feel it makes for a more rounded character and will make that trade. It’s what’s fun for them. Not for you, and I respect your opinion. Not for me either. But we aren’t everyone.
What about the fact that they're moving Monk away from its narrow zen buddhist roots? That's where the ability to speak to every living creature came from (as an extension of their 1e speak with animals and speak with plants abilities.) They don't want every monk to be pigeonholed into that flavor, but keeping TotSaM would do that.
I mean, to a certain degree I'd say they're just stuck with it, even as of the updates. As much as they're trying to slap a different coat of paint on it, removing charm, frighten, or poison through "sheer force of will" as well as being able to forgo food and drink is pretty much the epitome of a "Zen Buddhist" type character. Spiritualism is still a defining part of the Monk's identity, and even the latest description of it makes it pretty clear that's not going anywhere. If they can literally break mind control at-will, they're in the same neighborhood as universal speech, imo.
Modular features are the way to please most people; they give different options as they have done with the cleric. That way, players can choose the form they wish to play without making absolutes. Heightened discipline could lead to a modular feature that trains your body beyond normal and unlocks the potential to do things such as better hearing, sight, a sixth sense, perfect memory, and a sense of the spirituality of the room. All this can be shaped into out-of-combat utility while still riding on the body and mind theme.
This is exactly the kind of ability they should be careful of; if they create an ability that lets monks have "perfect memory" then it implies that every non-monk's (or low-level monk's) memory is imperfect, even when their player is the most diligent note-taker in the entire group.
As for better hearing/sight, keep in mind that even the keen senses of an elf are merely represented by free proficiency and darkvision. You could give the monk advantage or expertise but that might be overkill. Personally I would just add Perception to their class list.
I mean, to a certain degree I'd say they're just stuck with it, even as of the updates. As much as they're trying to slap a different coat of paint on it, removing charm, frighten, or poison through "sheer force of will" as well as being able to forgo food and drink is pretty much the epitome of a "Zen Buddhist" type character. Spiritualism is still a defining part of the Monk's identity, and even the latest description of it makes it pretty clear that's not going anywhere. If they can literally break mind control at-will, they're in the same neighborhood as universal speech, imo.
I disagree - fasting and mental discipline can represent a wide variety of ascetic traditions, from Fakirs to Yogi to Friars, not just Shaolin/Zen. The internal discipline to throw off mental influences from outside doesn't have to translate to being able to speak to every living thing (or indeed, speaking at all.)
Modular features are the way to please most people; they give different options as they have done with the cleric. That way, players can choose the form they wish to play without making absolutes. Heightened discipline could lead to a modular feature that trains your body beyond normal and unlocks the potential to do things such as better hearing, sight, a sixth sense, perfect memory, and a sense of the spirituality of the room. All this can be shaped into out-of-combat utility while still riding on the body and mind theme.
This is exactly the kind of ability they should be careful of; if they create an ability that lets monks have "perfect memory" then it implies that every non-monk's (or low-level monk's) memory is imperfect, even when their player is the most diligent note-taker in the entire group.
As for better hearing/sight, keep in mind that even the keen senses of an elf are merely represented by free proficiency and darkvision. You could give the monk advantage or expertise but that might be overkill. Personally I would just add Perception to their class list.
I mean, to a certain degree I'd say they're just stuck with it, even as of the updates. As much as they're trying to slap a different coat of paint on it, removing charm, frighten, or poison through "sheer force of will" as well as being able to forgo food and drink is pretty much the epitome of a "Zen Buddhist" type character. Spiritualism is still a defining part of the Monk's identity, and even the latest description of it makes it pretty clear that's not going anywhere. If they can literally break mind control at-will, they're in the same neighborhood as universal speech, imo.
I disagree - fasting and mental discipline can represent a wide variety of ascetic traditions, from Fakirs to Yogi to Friars, not just Shaolin/Zen. The internal discipline to throw off mental influences from outside doesn't have to translate to being able to speak to every living thing (or indeed, speaking at all.)
I completely agree that they are bad in that direction, what I meant to offer was the reason why they would have expertise on a skill check that is tied up to the class since they are focusing on fighting man's way of things. This is just flavor hooks to give what other classes have with skill checks nothing broken as it sounded.
I mean, to a certain degree I'd say they're just stuck with it, even as of the updates. As much as they're trying to slap a different coat of paint on it, removing charm, frighten, or poison through "sheer force of will" as well as being able to forgo food and drink is pretty much the epitome of a "Zen Buddhist" type character. Spiritualism is still a defining part of the Monk's identity, and even the latest description of it makes it pretty clear that's not going anywhere. If they can literally break mind control at-will, they're in the same neighborhood as universal speech, imo.
I disagree - fasting and mental discipline can represent a wide variety of ascetic traditions, from Fakirs to Yogi to Friars, not just Shaolin/Zen. The internal discipline to throw off mental influences from outside doesn't have to translate to being able to speak to every living thing (or indeed, speaking at all.)
It's not absolute positive confirmation of the other trait, but at the same time are you really going to say that while other spiritualistic trappings can be justified under any number of systems, the only possible interpretation of becoming a polyglot is this "Zen Buddhist" idea you feel they should be rejecting? The concept of spiritual oneness crops up in a lot of philosophies and easily covers an all-languages ability.
It's not absolute positive confirmation of the other trait, but at the same time are you really going to say that while other spiritualistic trappings can be justified under any number of systems, the only possible interpretation of becoming a polyglot is this "Zen Buddhist" idea you feel they should be rejecting? The concept of spiritual oneness crops up in a lot of philosophies and easily covers an all-languages ability.
My point is that mental fortitude doesn't have to be tied to "spiritual oneness" at all. You can be hard to keep frightened or charmed simply due to being focused or even stubborn, not because you've achieved eastern ideals of oneness or enlightenment. Thus, Still Mind Self-Restoration makes sense under a wider variety of contexts than TotSaM does, hence one surviving into the playtest and the other not.
It's not absolute positive confirmation of the other trait, but at the same time are you really going to say that while other spiritualistic trappings can be justified under any number of systems, the only possible interpretation of becoming a polyglot is this "Zen Buddhist" idea you feel they should be rejecting? The concept of spiritual oneness crops up in a lot of philosophies and easily covers an all-languages ability.
My point is that mental fortitude doesn't have to be tied to "spiritual oneness" at all. You can be hard to keep frightened or charmed simply due to being focused or even stubborn, not because you've achieved eastern ideals of oneness or enlightenment. Thus, Still Mind Self-Restoration makes sense under a wider variety of contexts than TotSaM does, hence one surviving into the playtest and the other not.
And how exactly is being able to throw fire, ice/cold, force, etc. back at someone reflective of anything but some for of spirituality-based power/outright magic? They're shifting the feature descriptions a little bit to sound less based on East Asian concepts, but the printed description of the class clearly says "Monks harness and focus their internal power to create extraordinary, even supernatural, effects." There's no fundamental reason why becoming a polyglot is no longer appropriate for the class; it got dropped because as a tier 3 ribbon it's quite underwhelming and Deflect Energy is now taking up the 13th level feature so they don't need the padding.
And how exactly is being able to throw fire, ice/cold, force, etc. back at someone reflective of anything but some for of spirituality-based power/outright magic? They're shifting the feature descriptions a little bit to sound less based on East Asian concepts, but the printed description of the class clearly says "Monks harness and focus their internal power to create extraordinary, even supernatural, effects." There's no fundamental reason why becoming a polyglot is no longer appropriate for the class; it got dropped because as a tier 3 ribbon it's quite underwhelming and Deflect Energy is now taking up the 13th level feature so they don't need the padding.
What? You don't need spiritual oneness to use magic. Literally every other magic-using class doesn't have zen buddhist flavor. Why are you so insistent on monks being pigeonholed into it?
And how exactly is being able to throw fire, ice/cold, force, etc. back at someone reflective of anything but some for of spirituality-based power/outright magic? They're shifting the feature descriptions a little bit to sound less based on East Asian concepts, but the printed description of the class clearly says "Monks harness and focus their internal power to create extraordinary, even supernatural, effects." There's no fundamental reason why becoming a polyglot is no longer appropriate for the class; it got dropped because as a tier 3 ribbon it's quite underwhelming and Deflect Energy is now taking up the 13th level feature so they don't need the padding.
What? You don't need spiritual oneness to use magic. Literally every other magic-using class doesn't have zen buddhist flavor. Why are you so insistent on monks being pigeonholed into it?
Call it "spiritual oneness" or "harnessing your inner energy" or whatever you want; Monks are fundamentally magical martial artists, and there's no reason why the power to speak and understand all languages should be singled out as a bridge too far for their powers becoming "Zen Buddhist" or whatever term you want to use to complain about very loose trappings that are used across multiple media from a number of cultures, including East Asian ones.
And how exactly is being able to throw fire, ice/cold, force, etc. back at someone reflective of anything but some for of spirituality-based power/outright magic? They're shifting the feature descriptions a little bit to sound less based on East Asian concepts, but the printed description of the class clearly says "Monks harness and focus their internal power to create extraordinary, even supernatural, effects." There's no fundamental reason why becoming a polyglot is no longer appropriate for the class; it got dropped because as a tier 3 ribbon it's quite underwhelming and Deflect Energy is now taking up the 13th level feature so they don't need the padding.
What? You don't need spiritual oneness to use magic. Literally every other magic-using class doesn't have zen buddhist flavor. Why are you so insistent on monks being pigeonholed into it?
wizards/bards manipulate external forces for external effects sorcerers channel internal forces for external effects warlocks/clerics channel external forces for external effects monks... internal forces, internal effects?
of all the ways to manipulate the weave there is a gap in methods that 'attunement' or 'resonance' might fill. 'oneness' is not required to manipulate the weave but it could be one way to access it. becoming not like the bucket, but like the water itself. with some handwaving of details you get a caster who can jump farther, climb faster, reject poison, deflect firebolts, sense thoughts, release beams of energy, etc.
so, should we mine zen koans for monk powers like universal speech? no. could we make a parallel leap that a very wise monk might gain a telepathy feature that makes them more easily understood when communicating with intelligent creatures? yes. i think there are ways to make all sides happy.
It's not absolute positive confirmation of the other trait, but at the same time are you really going to say that while other spiritualistic trappings can be justified under any number of systems, the only possible interpretation of becoming a polyglot is this "Zen Buddhist" idea you feel they should be rejecting? The concept of spiritual oneness crops up in a lot of philosophies and easily covers an all-languages ability.
My point is that mental fortitude doesn't have to be tied to "spiritual oneness" at all. You can be hard to keep frightened or charmed simply due to being focused or even stubborn, not because you've achieved eastern ideals of oneness or enlightenment. Thus, Still Mind Self-Restoration makes sense under a wider variety of contexts than TotSaM does, hence one surviving into the playtest and the other not.
That is literally just the definition of having a high wisdom or constitution. Self-Restoration is a magical ability beyond that. Now then you can pretend that they produce these effects by simply casting spells like any other magic user, but that is not what the flavour text nor mechanics support. Monks are innately supernatural beings, even more so than Barbarians, that achieve this supernatual-ness through intense study at monasteries as part of dedicated orders similar to Paladins. No matter how much people want them to just be Chuck Norris or any other bland generic "action-man" that just is not what they are and trying to make them that is to erase their unique character and most of their interesting abilities. The Brawler was your option for a mundane fist-wielding, action-man but apparently people don't actually want that because there is nothing to such characters - only 3 different abilities really : grapple, punch, run around naked.
As much as some might want monk to just be some dude who fights with his fist and is slightly supernatural, the monk class itself is inherently tied to extreme levels of wisdom.
superhuman levels currently.
"Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition."
"... mental discipline to align themselves with the multiverse"
superhuman attunement to the world, perception, and intuition, alignment with the multiverse, these guys aren't just Mike Tyson. There is superhuman aspect to their mental abilities from a wisdom angle.
players can deflavor this if they want, but its not out of line to have features that make sense from a supernatural levels of wisdom/attunement with the cosmos angle.
Call it "spiritual oneness" or "harnessing your inner energy" or whatever you want; Monks are fundamentally magical martial artists, and there's no reason why the power to speak and understand all languages should be singled out as a bridge too far for their powers becoming "Zen Buddhist" or whatever term you want to use to complain about very loose trappings that are used across multiple media from a number of cultures, including East Asian ones.
Self-Restoration is a magical ability beyond that. Now then you can pretend that they produce these effects by simply casting spells like any other magic user, but that is not what the flavour text nor mechanics support. Monks are innately supernatural beings, even more so than Barbarians, that achieve this supernatual-ness through intense study at monasteries as part of dedicated orders similar to Paladins. No matter how much people want them to just be Chuck Norris or any other bland generic "action-man" that just is not what they are and trying to make them that is to erase their unique character and most of their interesting abilities. The Brawler was your option for a mundane fist-wielding, action-man but apparently people don't actually want that because there is nothing to such characters - only 3 different abilities really : grapple, punch, run around naked.
I completely agree with you both that monks are magical, whether they call that magic "ki" or "discipline" or something else entirely. That doesn't mean their magic can or should translate into speaking with all living creatures, any more than a Paladin or Echo Knight's magic should mean that. Being innately magical does not mean every single magical capability under the heavens is open to you.
Call it "spiritual oneness" or "harnessing your inner energy" or whatever you want; Monks are fundamentally magical martial artists, and there's no reason why the power to speak and understand all languages should be singled out as a bridge too far for their powers becoming "Zen Buddhist" or whatever term you want to use to complain about very loose trappings that are used across multiple media from a number of cultures, including East Asian ones.
Self-Restoration is a magical ability beyond that. Now then you can pretend that they produce these effects by simply casting spells like any other magic user, but that is not what the flavour text nor mechanics support. Monks are innately supernatural beings, even more so than Barbarians, that achieve this supernatual-ness through intense study at monasteries as part of dedicated orders similar to Paladins. No matter how much people want them to just be Chuck Norris or any other bland generic "action-man" that just is not what they are and trying to make them that is to erase their unique character and most of their interesting abilities. The Brawler was your option for a mundane fist-wielding, action-man but apparently people don't actually want that because there is nothing to such characters - only 3 different abilities really : grapple, punch, run around naked.
I completely agree with you both that monks are magical, whether they call that magic "ki" or "discipline" or something else entirely. That doesn't mean their magic can or should translate into speaking with all living creatures, any more than a Paladin or Echo Knight's magic should mean that. Being innately magical does not mean every single magical capability under the heavens is open to you.
Being able to speak all languages (which is not the same as being able to speak with all living things - plants & animals don't speak any language) seems very thematic to me as a superpower based on Insight - where you can not just read people's body language but you can perfectly understand and communicate with them in a way beyond language. I'd be just as happy with it being straight telepathy, but speaking all languages suffices. I get strong Second Foundation vibes from it. Alternatively, you could think about it like Doctor Who where speaking / understanding all languages comes from one's connection to space & time. [See it's not just a zen buddist thing, lots of media/cultures have being able to understand other people as a trope associated with Wisdom and connection to the universe]
Being able to speak all languages (which is not the same as being able to speak with all living things - plants & animals don't speak any language) seems very thematic to me as a superpower based on Insight - where you can not just read people's body language but you can perfectly understand and communicate with them in a way beyond language. I'd be just as happy with it being straight telepathy, but speaking all languages suffices. I get strong Second Foundation vibes from it. Alternatively, you could think about it like Doctor Who where speaking / understanding all languages comes from one's connection to space & time. [See it's not just a zen buddist thing, lots of media/cultures have being able to understand other people as a trope associated with Wisdom and connection to the universe]
I could see understanding or reading people as a function of Insight, but Insight has nothing to do with translating your communications back to them - as the prefix "in" implies, Insight is internal.
As for the Doctor, he doesn't actually speak every single language, his TARDIS artifact translates for him and his companion. This was actually a plot point in a very recent special that dropped a couple of weeks back.
Being good at Insight and reading other people absolutely had to do with your ability to use your body language to communicate back to them, see the Second Foundation example. The TARDIS (which has a mind of its own making it closer to a creature than an artifact) can translate because it it's heart is connected to the time vortex making it connected to all of time & space. It's not a computer with a universal dictionary installed like in Star Trek. Other examples of monk == telepathy are the Vulcans in Star Trek who are also super monk-ish in archetype / culture which allows them to enter the minds of other creatures to communicate directly with them. There is also the Jedi who have prophetic visions & post-mortem telepathy. Monks should get a bunch of divination-related abilities for their OOC stuff, rather than just the same "add X to a skill check by expending Y resource".
I could see understanding or reading people as a function of Insight, but Insight has nothing to do with translating your communications back to them - as the prefix "in" implies, Insight is internal.
I guess you could think of it in terms of your insight into the other creature giving you the ability to work out how you might communicate with it?
I've always preferred to think of Tongue of the Sun and Moon as the ability to understand or be understood, rather than actually tying it to language narratively; so while you might speak or listen regardless, it's more about reading body language and using some of your own in a way that you believe the other person will understand.
If it were to be kept as a ribbon feature I could see it being reworded something like: "You have the ability to understand other creatures, and make yourself understood by them, even if you have no shared languages, so long as you each know at least one language. You may still require a check in order to communicate/comprehend complex subjects". Basically emphasise that it's not about knowing/speaking any language, it's about no longer needing to.
I could see understanding or reading people as a function of Insight, but Insight has nothing to do with translating your communications back to them - as the prefix "in" implies, Insight is internal.
I guess you could think of it in terms of your insight into the other creature giving you the ability to work out how you might communicate with it.
I've always preferred to think of Tongue of the Sun and Moon as the ability to understand or be understood, rather than actually tying it to language narratively; so while you might speak or listen regardless, it's more about reading body language and using some of your own in a way that you believe the other person will understand.
If it were to be kept as a ribbon feature I could see it being reworded something like: "You have the ability to understand other creatures, and make yourself understood by them, even if you have no shared languages, so long as you each know at least one language. You may still require a check in order to communicate/comprehend complex subjects". Basically emphasise that it's not about knowing/speaking any language, it's about no longer needing to.
If it's not related to language then it's been named quite badly. Regardless, I stand by my preference that universal understanding, or at least lie detection, fits monks better than universal communication, if they absolutely must have a ribbon like this.
If it's not related to language then it's been named quite badly. Regardless, I stand by my preference that universal understanding, or at least lie detection, fits monks better than universal communication, if they absolutely must have a ribbon like this.
Oh yeah they'd have to change the name, I should have said that.
Not sure what would be good instead as I'm generally bad at naming things, something along the lines of "Intuitive Understanding" (rather than my first idea of "Babelmonky" because babelfish + monk 😂) – the point is to decouple it mechanically from being specifically language based or magical, so the player/DM can decide how it actually works if they need/want to.
To me though, "Intuitive Understanding" still implies listening rather than talking. Again, I think "be understood by everyone" is a more fitting ribbon for a Bard, who are after all empowered by the First Language that predates all others.
I wouldn't be against the divination abilities proposed earlier in the thread, provided they 're ones that 'can be flavored as a result of intense (even mystical) attention to detail and concentration too, rather than solely eastern pseudo-religious/philosophical concepts.
To me though, "Intuitive Understanding" still implies listening rather than talking. Again, I think "be understood by everyone" is a more fitting ribbon for a Bard, who are after all empowered by the First Language that predates all others.
Bards have no need for such a feature though, as they have access to both comprehend languages and tongues as standard if you want them; they could certainly have a ribbon that eliminates the need to spend spell choices on these later on by doing the same thing, but it seems kind of redundant for them. College of Eloquence already kind of has it though. But Bard isn't exactly a class that's lacking in out of combat utility, unlike the Monk.
I mean, to a certain degree I'd say they're just stuck with it, even as of the updates. As much as they're trying to slap a different coat of paint on it, removing charm, frighten, or poison through "sheer force of will" as well as being able to forgo food and drink is pretty much the epitome of a "Zen Buddhist" type character. Spiritualism is still a defining part of the Monk's identity, and even the latest description of it makes it pretty clear that's not going anywhere. If they can literally break mind control at-will, they're in the same neighborhood as universal speech, imo.
This is exactly the kind of ability they should be careful of; if they create an ability that lets monks have "perfect memory" then it implies that every non-monk's (or low-level monk's) memory is imperfect, even when their player is the most diligent note-taker in the entire group.
As for better hearing/sight, keep in mind that even the keen senses of an elf are merely represented by free proficiency and darkvision. You could give the monk advantage or expertise but that might be overkill. Personally I would just add Perception to their class list.
I disagree - fasting and mental discipline can represent a wide variety of ascetic traditions, from Fakirs to Yogi to Friars, not just Shaolin/Zen. The internal discipline to throw off mental influences from outside doesn't have to translate to being able to speak to every living thing (or indeed, speaking at all.)
I completely agree that they are bad in that direction, what I meant to offer was the reason why they would have expertise on a skill check that is tied up to the class since they are focusing on fighting man's way of things. This is just flavor hooks to give what other classes have with skill checks nothing broken as it sounded.
It's not absolute positive confirmation of the other trait, but at the same time are you really going to say that while other spiritualistic trappings can be justified under any number of systems, the only possible interpretation of becoming a polyglot is this "Zen Buddhist" idea you feel they should be rejecting? The concept of spiritual oneness crops up in a lot of philosophies and easily covers an all-languages ability.
My point is that mental fortitude doesn't have to be tied to "spiritual oneness" at all. You can be hard to keep frightened or charmed simply due to being focused or even stubborn, not because you've achieved eastern ideals of oneness or enlightenment. Thus,
Still MindSelf-Restoration makes sense under a wider variety of contexts than TotSaM does, hence one surviving into the playtest and the other not.And how exactly is being able to throw fire, ice/cold, force, etc. back at someone reflective of anything but some for of spirituality-based power/outright magic? They're shifting the feature descriptions a little bit to sound less based on East Asian concepts, but the printed description of the class clearly says "Monks harness and focus their internal power to create extraordinary, even supernatural, effects." There's no fundamental reason why becoming a polyglot is no longer appropriate for the class; it got dropped because as a tier 3 ribbon it's quite underwhelming and Deflect Energy is now taking up the 13th level feature so they don't need the padding.
What? You don't need spiritual oneness to use magic. Literally every other magic-using class doesn't have zen buddhist flavor. Why are you so insistent on monks being pigeonholed into it?
Call it "spiritual oneness" or "harnessing your inner energy" or whatever you want; Monks are fundamentally magical martial artists, and there's no reason why the power to speak and understand all languages should be singled out as a bridge too far for their powers becoming "Zen Buddhist" or whatever term you want to use to complain about very loose trappings that are used across multiple media from a number of cultures, including East Asian ones.
wizards/bards manipulate external forces for external effects
sorcerers channel internal forces for external effects
warlocks/clerics channel external forces for external effects
monks... internal forces, internal effects?
of all the ways to manipulate the weave there is a gap in methods that 'attunement' or 'resonance' might fill. 'oneness' is not required to manipulate the weave but it could be one way to access it. becoming not like the bucket, but like the water itself. with some handwaving of details you get a caster who can jump farther, climb faster, reject poison, deflect firebolts, sense thoughts, release beams of energy, etc.
so, should we mine zen koans for monk powers like universal speech? no. could we make a parallel leap that a very wise monk might gain a telepathy feature that makes them more easily understood when communicating with intelligent creatures? yes. i think there are ways to make all sides happy.
That is literally just the definition of having a high wisdom or constitution. Self-Restoration is a magical ability beyond that. Now then you can pretend that they produce these effects by simply casting spells like any other magic user, but that is not what the flavour text nor mechanics support. Monks are innately supernatural beings, even more so than Barbarians, that achieve this supernatual-ness through intense study at monasteries as part of dedicated orders similar to Paladins. No matter how much people want them to just be Chuck Norris or any other bland generic "action-man" that just is not what they are and trying to make them that is to erase their unique character and most of their interesting abilities. The Brawler was your option for a mundane fist-wielding, action-man but apparently people don't actually want that because there is nothing to such characters - only 3 different abilities really : grapple, punch, run around naked.
I completely agree with you both that monks are magical, whether they call that magic "ki" or "discipline" or something else entirely. That doesn't mean their magic can or should translate into speaking with all living creatures, any more than a Paladin or Echo Knight's magic should mean that. Being innately magical does not mean every single magical capability under the heavens is open to you.
Being able to speak all languages (which is not the same as being able to speak with all living things - plants & animals don't speak any language) seems very thematic to me as a superpower based on Insight - where you can not just read people's body language but you can perfectly understand and communicate with them in a way beyond language. I'd be just as happy with it being straight telepathy, but speaking all languages suffices. I get strong Second Foundation vibes from it. Alternatively, you could think about it like Doctor Who where speaking / understanding all languages comes from one's connection to space & time. [See it's not just a zen buddist thing, lots of media/cultures have being able to understand other people as a trope associated with Wisdom and connection to the universe]
I could see understanding or reading people as a function of Insight, but Insight has nothing to do with translating your communications back to them - as the prefix "in" implies, Insight is internal.
As for the Doctor, he doesn't actually speak every single language, his TARDIS artifact translates for him and his companion. This was actually a plot point in a very recent special that dropped a couple of weeks back.
Being good at Insight and reading other people absolutely had to do with your ability to use your body language to communicate back to them, see the Second Foundation example. The TARDIS (which has a mind of its own making it closer to a creature than an artifact) can translate because it it's heart is connected to the time vortex making it connected to all of time & space. It's not a computer with a universal dictionary installed like in Star Trek. Other examples of monk == telepathy are the Vulcans in Star Trek who are also super monk-ish in archetype / culture which allows them to enter the minds of other creatures to communicate directly with them. There is also the Jedi who have prophetic visions & post-mortem telepathy. Monks should get a bunch of divination-related abilities for their OOC stuff, rather than just the same "add X to a skill check by expending Y resource".
I guess you could think of it in terms of your insight into the other creature giving you the ability to work out how you might communicate with it?
I've always preferred to think of Tongue of the Sun and Moon as the ability to understand or be understood, rather than actually tying it to language narratively; so while you might speak or listen regardless, it's more about reading body language and using some of your own in a way that you believe the other person will understand.
If it were to be kept as a ribbon feature I could see it being reworded something like: "You have the ability to understand other creatures, and make yourself understood by them, even if you have no shared languages, so long as you each know at least one language. You may still require a check in order to communicate/comprehend complex subjects". Basically emphasise that it's not about knowing/speaking any language, it's about no longer needing to.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
If it's not related to language then it's been named quite badly. Regardless, I stand by my preference that universal understanding, or at least lie detection, fits monks better than universal communication, if they absolutely must have a ribbon like this.
Oh yeah they'd have to change the name, I should have said that.
Not sure what would be good instead as I'm generally bad at naming things, something along the lines of "Intuitive Understanding" (rather than my first idea of "Babelmonky" because babelfish + monk 😂) – the point is to decouple it mechanically from being specifically language based or magical, so the player/DM can decide how it actually works if they need/want to.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
To me though, "Intuitive Understanding" still implies listening rather than talking. Again, I think "be understood by everyone" is a more fitting ribbon for a Bard, who are after all empowered by the First Language that predates all others.
I wouldn't be against the divination abilities proposed earlier in the thread, provided they 're ones that 'can be flavored as a result of intense (even mystical) attention to detail and concentration too, rather than solely eastern pseudo-religious/philosophical concepts.
Bards have no need for such a feature though, as they have access to both comprehend languages and tongues as standard if you want them; they could certainly have a ribbon that eliminates the need to spend spell choices on these later on by doing the same thing, but it seems kind of redundant for them. College of Eloquence already kind of has it though. But Bard isn't exactly a class that's lacking in out of combat utility, unlike the Monk.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.