While I agree that monk should get some OOC stuff, I believe we are in the minority for believing so. It seems more people want "monk" to be "action-man" - aka the equipment-less fighter - rather than a wise/sage spiritual monk.
fantasy wise, they are supposed to be the wise sage action man. Or at least become them one day.
I get what you are saying and I largely agree. But you’re still talking about personal preference. Not objective fact. Some people like OoC abilities. They feel it makes for a more rounded character and will make that trade. It’s what’s fun for them. Not for you, and I respect your opinion. Not for me either. But we aren’t everyone.
What about the fact that they're moving Monk away from its narrow zen buddhist roots? That's where the ability to speak to every living creature came from (as an extension of their 1e speak with animals and speak with plants abilities.) They don't want every monk to be pigeonholed into that flavor, but keeping TotSaM would do that.
having one ability doesnt pigeon hold you into anything, and changing flavor is recommended in dnd for players looking for specific/different flavor to features. Like Song of rest is reflavored for dancer bards, orators, etc
Having step of the wind doesnt pigeonhole me into running from fights, its an option.
I get what you are saying and I largely agree. But you’re still talking about personal preference. Not objective fact. Some people like OoC abilities. They feel it makes for a more rounded character and will make that trade. It’s what’s fun for them. Not for you, and I respect your opinion. Not for me either. But we aren’t everyone.
What about the fact that they're moving Monk away from its narrow zen buddhist roots? That's where the ability to speak to every living creature came from (as an extension of their 1e speak with animals and speak with plants abilities.) They don't want every monk to be pigeonholed into that flavor, but keeping TotSaM would do that.
I was just kind of throwing that out as an arbitrary example, but that’s a good point. Though it seems like it shouldn’t be impossible to re-flavor it in a more culturally open way. The larger point was that there are going to be campaigns where OoC abilities are more useful, and we should try not to make blanket statements about one thing or another being objectively superior every time.
While I agree that monk should get some OOC stuff, I believe we are in the minority for believing so. It seems more people want "monk" to be "action-man" - aka the equipment-less fighter - rather than a wise/sage spiritual monk.
fantasy wise, they are supposed to be the wise sage action man. Or at least become them one day.
mind+body is the theme
It should be but that's not what people seem to want. Everything making them wise sages got tossed out, now they are just action-man because apparently "wise sages" or "mystical warrior" are too culturally specific so generic punch-y action-man is what we are getting.
having one ability doesnt pigeon hold you into anything, and changing flavor is recommended in dnd for players looking for specific/different flavor to features. Like Song of rest is reflavored for dancer bards, orators, etc
Having step of the wind doesnt pigeonhole me into running from fights, its an option.
How do you reflavor the monk suddenly either knowing every language on the planet, or being able to speak and hear in binary or whatever? If not zen, where did that come from?
I was just kind of throwing that out as an arbitrary example, but that’s a good point. Though it seems like it shouldn’t be impossible to re-flavor it in a more culturally open way. The larger point was that there are going to be campaigns where OoC abilities are more useful, and we should try not to make blanket statements about one thing or another being objectively superior every time.
I'm fine with them getting stuff that is useful in the social pillar. But I can understand why they got rid of that ability specifically.
I'd be perfectly fine with the earlier suggestion to let them detect lies, fluffable not just as a mystic universalness but also as simply reading body language, heartbeat, pupil dilation etc.
Yes, absolutely. Also, it shouldn't be an automatic "all monks get this" feature; what 5E is missing, and it looks like OD&D will also be missing, are "small feat-like pools". No, not every monk needs to have "Use Wisdom instead of Charisma for persuasion, deception, and intimidation rolls", but every monk needs to have that as an option, and have it in a list of other similar options, none of which are combat-relevant.
I'm very much in the camp of wanting Monk to gain some extra out of combat features beyond mobility.
I don't expect Monks to become skill monkeys or anything, and I think that early on they're not in too bad a place; since they're still prioritising Dexterity and Wisdom that gives them a good mix of skills that they're good or at least decent at.
So early on I could absolutely see them getting something like an extra option on Monk's Discipline that lets them spend 1 Discipline to use Wisdom for an Intelligence or Charisma check, refunded on failure. This is far from overpowered, but allows the Monk to step in as a face using calm/focus/intuition from time to time.
It being Discipline based means that it scales by default so they can't excel at early levels, but as the Monk gets more and more Discipline points they can use it more if they wish. The obvious thing to do would then be to have it boosted by Heightened Discipline alongside the other basic discipline features, e.g- becoming free, but you can still spend the Discipline point to instead gain proficiency if you don't already have it, perhaps? In this way it won't overshadow primary skill experts, but lets the Monk draw on their mental discipline to gain some extra versatility.
Later on I'd still like some of the interesting ribbon features, but have them brought in earlier; Tongue of the Sun and Moon should be added alongside another feature, 11th-level at the very latest as this would be alongside a sub-class feature and is roughly in line with a half-caster's access to the tongues spell. I also like the idea of getting astral projection somewhere in tier 3 or 4, even if it's a late feature that most monk players will never get to access to (and even fewer will actually use) it was just cool to have.
Barbarians do not need to expend any resource beyond their usage of Rage (which can persist between battles) to gain primary stat usage and automatic Advantage on five types of skill checks.
Bards' Expertise and Jack of all Trades do not have a resource cost, and Bardic Inspiration is its own resource.
Clerics and Druids have no limit on adding their Wisdom to Religion/Nature checks.
Fighters' Tactical Mind draws from a secondary resource that doesn't dictate damage output, and doesn't cost anything if it fails.
Rangers' Favored Terrain and Expertise have no resource cost.
Rogues' Expertise and Reliable Talent have no resource cost.
Warlocks' Eldritch Invocations are not limited by resource.
Wizards' Expertise has no resource cost.
Giving Monks another element that forces them to expend their primary resource just to keep up with what other classes can do either from its own resource pool or for zero cost whatsoever further screws over Monk players.
While I agree that monk should get some OOC stuff, I believe we are in the minority for believing so. It seems more people want "monk" to be "action-man" - aka the equipment-less fighter - rather than a wise/sage spiritual monk.
Maybe, but I think every class needs some stuff to do outside of combat. And pretty much all martials have in 5e for this is skill checks, which becomes a pretty lame way for staying active during the exploration and social interaction pillars as the levels go on.
But I honestly haven't been keeping up with the UA stuff lol so I don't know what they're doing to change this phenomena for monks and Warriors in general, if anything.
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Firstly, I will generally defend "ribbon" features because coding anything into the mechanics creates a reference point for expectation of mechanical cost. If monks get languages free that means there is a gamplay type where knowing vs not knowing can be interesting play. Or a ranger getting exact numbers and sizes while tracking means other classes shouldn't expect that much from one check. Ribbons are great gamplay tools for world building and adventure building.
That also being said I think every class has loads of out of combat potential being underutilized at a lot of tables. Tools, skills and "feature" non damage use cases are all part of the game. Even damage is not entirely just combat, Smashing locks are an option. Misty step can often be used for tricks or spying just as easy as clairvoyance.
So, yes I think they would benefit from "out of combat" features but it's not a deal breaker especially if it undermines the class "power budget". There's a tendency for people (both at wotc or consumers) to say low cost features create bad balance or design without looking holistically at the class.
Yes, absolutely. Also, it shouldn't be an automatic "all monks get this" feature; what 5E is missing, and it looks like OD&D will also be missing, are "small feat-like pools". No, not every monk needs to have "Use Wisdom instead of Charisma for persuasion, deception, and intimidation rolls", but every monk needs to have that as an option, and have it in a list of other similar options, none of which are combat-relevant.
I'd be fine with a subclass that gets this, like Fey Wanderer did for Ranger.
Firstly, I will generally defend "ribbon" features because coding anything into the mechanics creates a reference point for expectation of mechanical cost. If monks get languages free that means there is a gamplay type where knowing vs not knowing can be interesting play. Or a ranger getting exact numbers and sizes while tracking means other classes shouldn't expect that much from one check.
See though, this is precisely why I hate many 2014 ribbons. That "reference point" becomes a shackle or ceiling on other classes who lack said ribbon. Like the 2014 Assassin getting a whole feature that lets them make a false identity after 7 days and spending gold - if that never existed, how many DMs would have been okay with simple disguise kit proficiency and a day to make one? Or the time varying depending on how complex the identity is and who you need to fool? I'd much rather that kind of flexibility.
See though, this is precisely why I hate many 2014 ribbons. That "reference point" becomes a shackle or ceiling on other classes who lack said ribbon. Like the 2014 Assassin getting a whole feature that lets them make a false identity after 7 days and spending gold - if that never existed, how many DMs would have been okay with simple disguise kit proficiency and a day to make one? Or the time varying depending on how complex the identity is and who you need to fool? I'd much rather that kind of flexibility.
Oh, I despise implied-by-otherwise-existing disabilities *with a passion*, and this is the perfect 5e example of one. Eugh. I need a shower.
Let's sum up what most people in this thread actually believe:
No, Monks don't need out-of-combat features, because Goku never needed out-of-combat features.
Nobody has stated or implied that they believe this. The one person that brought up Goku literally described an out of combat feature that Goku uses. I mean no offense but you are blatantly ignoring what people are typing.
Let's sum up what most people in this thread actually believe:
No, Monks don't need out-of-combat features, because Goku never needed out-of-combat features.
Nobody has stated or implied that they believe this. The one person that brought up Goku literally described an out of combat feature that Goku uses. I mean no offense but you are blatantly ignoring what people are typing.
yeah, and besides: krillin and roshi were the monks. goku was just some space alien which isn't far off from "a wizard did it." also, master roshi was constantly finding non-combat uses for these powers and no one is asking for monk features like that.
...is what someone might say if they were secretly a nerd.
Yes, absolutely. Also, it shouldn't be an automatic "all monks get this" feature; what 5E is missing, and it looks like OD&D will also be missing, are "small feat-like pools". No, not every monk needs to have "Use Wisdom instead of Charisma for persuasion, deception, and intimidation rolls", but every monk needs to have that as an option, and have it in a list of other similar options, none of which are combat-relevant.
I'd be fine with a subclass that gets this, like Fey Wanderer did for Ranger.
Firstly, I will generally defend "ribbon" features because coding anything into the mechanics creates a reference point for expectation of mechanical cost. If monks get languages free that means there is a gamplay type where knowing vs not knowing can be interesting play. Or a ranger getting exact numbers and sizes while tracking means other classes shouldn't expect that much from one check.
See though, this is precisely why I hate many 2014 ribbons. That "reference point" becomes a shackle or ceiling on other classes who lack said ribbon. Like the 2014 Assassin getting a whole feature that lets them make a false identity after 7 days and spending gold - if that never existed, how many DMs would have been okay with simple disguise kit proficiency and a day to make one? Or the time varying depending on how complex the identity is and who you need to fool? I'd much rather that kind of flexibility.
I agree there is tight balance to introducing ideas as ribbons and then people inferring this is the only way that case should be achieved.
but I also know that many DMs and players have trouble creating/accepting ideas that aren't at least hinted somewhere, with a fear/feeling that its somehow breaking the game.
How would you say they can introduce people to these type of ideas?
might be more of a DMG consideration, but thats also something they are theoretically working on
How would you say they can introduce people to these type of ideas?
might be more of a DMG consideration, but thats also something they are theoretically working on
I would tell them to read Xanathar's or the new DMG for the tool uses and extrapolate from that, along with the DC-setting guidelines from Using Ability Scores.
Not every class has to be good at everything all the time. Each class should have its own strengths and weaknesses to build a unique class identity.
There are already plenty of ways to get monks more bonuses to out of combat skill checks if that is what is needed and i think monks have always been pretty good in the flavor department.
In my experience as long as the group had a balance of skill sets and the dm gave time for each player to role play and explore out of combat activities/scenarios then no one in any class ever seemed to complain about a lack of support from their class features.
There have been some bad design decisions with monks out of combat utility (like dragon monks draconic presence) but I think wotc has learned alot from the monk UA and i am hopeful we wont see such bad design choices in the future.
I would love to see the monks ability to walk on walls come online earlier and maybe add perception to their list of starting skills.
Yes, absolutely. Also, it shouldn't be an automatic "all monks get this" feature; what 5E is missing, and it looks like OD&D will also be missing, are "small feat-like pools". No, not every monk needs to have "Use Wisdom instead of Charisma for persuasion, deception, and intimidation rolls", but every monk needs to have that as an option, and have it in a list of other similar options, none of which are combat-relevant.
I'd be fine with a subclass that gets this, like Fey Wanderer did for Ranger.
Firstly, I will generally defend "ribbon" features because coding anything into the mechanics creates a reference point for expectation of mechanical cost. If monks get languages free that means there is a gamplay type where knowing vs not knowing can be interesting play. Or a ranger getting exact numbers and sizes while tracking means other classes shouldn't expect that much from one check.
See though, this is precisely why I hate many 2014 ribbons. That "reference point" becomes a shackle or ceiling on other classes who lack said ribbon. Like the 2014 Assassin getting a whole feature that lets them make a false identity after 7 days and spending gold - if that never existed, how many DMs would have been okay with simple disguise kit proficiency and a day to make one? Or the time varying depending on how complex the identity is and who you need to fool? I'd much rather that kind of flexibility.
Modular features are the way to please most people; they give different options as they have done with the cleric. That way, players can choose the form they wish to play without making absolutes. Heightened discipline could lead to a modular feature that trains your body beyond normal and unlocks the potential to do things such as better hearing, sight, a sixth sense, perfect memory, and a sense of the spirituality of the room. All this can be shaped into out-of-combat utility while still riding on the body and mind theme.
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fantasy wise, they are supposed to be the wise sage action man. Or at least become them one day.
mind+body is the theme
No one is talking about trading, tactical mind is an addition, the new primal knowledge is an addition.
having one ability doesnt pigeon hold you into anything, and changing flavor is recommended in dnd for players looking for specific/different flavor to features. Like Song of rest is reflavored for dancer bards, orators, etc
Having step of the wind doesnt pigeonhole me into running from fights, its an option.
I was just kind of throwing that out as an arbitrary example, but that’s a good point. Though it seems like it shouldn’t be impossible to re-flavor it in a more culturally open way. The larger point was that there are going to be campaigns where OoC abilities are more useful, and we should try not to make blanket statements about one thing or another being objectively superior every time.
It should be but that's not what people seem to want. Everything making them wise sages got tossed out, now they are just action-man because apparently "wise sages" or "mystical warrior" are too culturally specific so generic punch-y action-man is what we are getting.
How do you reflavor the monk suddenly either knowing every language on the planet, or being able to speak and hear in binary or whatever? If not zen, where did that come from?
I'm fine with them getting stuff that is useful in the social pillar. But I can understand why they got rid of that ability specifically.
I'd be perfectly fine with the earlier suggestion to let them detect lies, fluffable not just as a mystic universalness but also as simply reading body language, heartbeat, pupil dilation etc.
Yes, absolutely.
Also, it shouldn't be an automatic "all monks get this" feature; what 5E is missing, and it looks like OD&D will also be missing, are "small feat-like pools". No, not every monk needs to have "Use Wisdom instead of Charisma for persuasion, deception, and intimidation rolls", but every monk needs to have that as an option, and have it in a list of other similar options, none of which are combat-relevant.
I'm very much in the camp of wanting Monk to gain some extra out of combat features beyond mobility.
I don't expect Monks to become skill monkeys or anything, and I think that early on they're not in too bad a place; since they're still prioritising Dexterity and Wisdom that gives them a good mix of skills that they're good or at least decent at.
So early on I could absolutely see them getting something like an extra option on Monk's Discipline that lets them spend 1 Discipline to use Wisdom for an Intelligence or Charisma check, refunded on failure. This is far from overpowered, but allows the Monk to step in as a face using calm/focus/intuition from time to time.
It being Discipline based means that it scales by default so they can't excel at early levels, but as the Monk gets more and more Discipline points they can use it more if they wish. The obvious thing to do would then be to have it boosted by Heightened Discipline alongside the other basic discipline features, e.g- becoming free, but you can still spend the Discipline point to instead gain proficiency if you don't already have it, perhaps? In this way it won't overshadow primary skill experts, but lets the Monk draw on their mental discipline to gain some extra versatility.
Later on I'd still like some of the interesting ribbon features, but have them brought in earlier; Tongue of the Sun and Moon should be added alongside another feature, 11th-level at the very latest as this would be alongside a sub-class feature and is roughly in line with a half-caster's access to the tongues spell. I also like the idea of getting astral projection somewhere in tier 3 or 4, even if it's a late feature that most monk players will never get to access to (and even fewer will actually use) it was just cool to have.
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To reiterate:
Giving Monks another element that forces them to expend their primary resource just to keep up with what other classes can do either from its own resource pool or for zero cost whatsoever further screws over Monk players.
Maybe, but I think every class needs some stuff to do outside of combat. And pretty much all martials have in 5e for this is skill checks, which becomes a pretty lame way for staying active during the exploration and social interaction pillars as the levels go on.
But I honestly haven't been keeping up with the UA stuff lol so I don't know what they're doing to change this phenomena for monks and Warriors in general, if anything.
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He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Firstly, I will generally defend "ribbon" features because coding anything into the mechanics creates a reference point for expectation of mechanical cost. If monks get languages free that means there is a gamplay type where knowing vs not knowing can be interesting play. Or a ranger getting exact numbers and sizes while tracking means other classes shouldn't expect that much from one check. Ribbons are great gamplay tools for world building and adventure building.
That also being said I think every class has loads of out of combat potential being underutilized at a lot of tables. Tools, skills and "feature" non damage use cases are all part of the game. Even damage is not entirely just combat, Smashing locks are an option. Misty step can often be used for tricks or spying just as easy as clairvoyance.
So, yes I think they would benefit from "out of combat" features but it's not a deal breaker especially if it undermines the class "power budget". There's a tendency for people (both at wotc or consumers) to say low cost features create bad balance or design without looking holistically at the class.
I'd be fine with a subclass that gets this, like Fey Wanderer did for Ranger.
See though, this is precisely why I hate many 2014 ribbons. That "reference point" becomes a shackle or ceiling on other classes who lack said ribbon. Like the 2014 Assassin getting a whole feature that lets them make a false identity after 7 days and spending gold - if that never existed, how many DMs would have been okay with simple disguise kit proficiency and a day to make one? Or the time varying depending on how complex the identity is and who you need to fool? I'd much rather that kind of flexibility.
Oh, I despise implied-by-otherwise-existing disabilities *with a passion*, and this is the perfect 5e example of one. Eugh. I need a shower.
Let's sum up what most people in this thread actually believe:
No, Monks don't need out-of-combat features, because Goku never needed out-of-combat features.
Nobody has stated or implied that they believe this. The one person that brought up Goku literally described an out of combat feature that Goku uses. I mean no offense but you are blatantly ignoring what people are typing.
yeah, and besides: krillin and roshi were the monks. goku was just some space alien which isn't far off from "a wizard did it." also, master roshi was constantly finding non-combat uses for these powers and no one is asking for monk features like that.
...is what someone might say if they were secretly a nerd.
I agree there is tight balance to introducing ideas as ribbons and then people inferring this is the only way that case should be achieved.
but I also know that many DMs and players have trouble creating/accepting ideas that aren't at least hinted somewhere, with a fear/feeling that its somehow breaking the game.
How would you say they can introduce people to these type of ideas?
might be more of a DMG consideration, but thats also something they are theoretically working on
I would tell them to read Xanathar's or the new DMG for the tool uses and extrapolate from that, along with the DC-setting guidelines from Using Ability Scores.
Not every class has to be good at everything all the time. Each class should have its own strengths and weaknesses to build a unique class identity.
There are already plenty of ways to get monks more bonuses to out of combat skill checks if that is what is needed and i think monks have always been pretty good in the flavor department.
In my experience as long as the group had a balance of skill sets and the dm gave time for each player to role play and explore out of combat activities/scenarios then no one in any class ever seemed to complain about a lack of support from their class features.
There have been some bad design decisions with monks out of combat utility (like dragon monks draconic presence) but I think wotc has learned alot from the monk UA and i am hopeful we wont see such bad design choices in the future.
I would love to see the monks ability to walk on walls come online earlier and maybe add perception to their list of starting skills.
Modular features are the way to please most people; they give different options as they have done with the cleric. That way, players can choose the form they wish to play without making absolutes. Heightened discipline could lead to a modular feature that trains your body beyond normal and unlocks the potential to do things such as better hearing, sight, a sixth sense, perfect memory, and a sense of the spirituality of the room. All this can be shaped into out-of-combat utility while still riding on the body and mind theme.