Titan Druid

Created this thread for a discussion about the new Circle of the Titan UA. All impressions, perceptions, thoughts welcome.

For me, while the UA could use tweaking here and there, I think the general design of the Titan Druids is thematic of the the raw, primal power of the Druid class and therefore a step in the right direction. 

• Wild shape (WS) thoughts:
  • Combat WS: it's about time Druid's get a subclass other than Moon, that does not limit wild shape (WS) to mere utility. Again, Druids represent the raw power of the inner planes, wild shape should not be limited to utility and beasts.
  • WS temp HP: given the combat WS option for the Titan Druid, IMO it doesn't make sense that the temporary HP of the Titan WS (2*level) scaling doesn't match the Moon Druid's (3*level). Throughout all the D&D editions, larger creatures tend to have more HP than smaller ones, so one could easily make an argument that the Titan should have more temp HP than the Moon Druid's WS, if only at higher levels because of the size increase. In fact, it would make sense (and be cool) if the Titan Druid's WS scaled with the size of the WS creature, e.g., Large = 2 temp HP* level, Huge = 3 temp HP*level, Gargantuan = 4 temp HP*level.
  • Fly: the Insectoid WS would give Druids the ability to fly at level 3, which is significantly earlier the standard Druid at level 8. So, some might think the Insectoid WS option is OP. First off, it's true level 3 is much earlier than level 8. However, the Insectoid WS form is fairly week, e.g., it has the weakest AC. Second, IMO the current level 8 standard for Druids to access a WS form that can fly is flawed. Arcane casters get access to Fly at level 5, which never seemed fair/balanced to me given that Druids represent the creatures of the material and inner planes, wherein flying is common. I can imagine that the Insectiod form will be used for utility as much as combat.
  • Behemoth siege ability: I just think this is cool since I can't recall any other class/subclass in the game getting this ability as a class/subclass feature. It is very circumstantial, but good DMs can draw up encounters where it could be an option for a party, e.g., the party comes upon a bandit fort in the wilderness, etc. 

I hope the Titan Druid is an indication of the future direction for Druid subclasses. I'd like to see WS options that reflect the diversity of creatures in the inner planes that Druids represent, e.g., other monsters, elementals, dragons, plants.

This is the Godzilla, Gezora, Mothra Druid. My only complaint is much like the Sorcerer it isn’t evil coded, and unlike the sorcerer which couldn’t be evil coded because it’s bloodline not moral choice this just isn’t evil by choice. I think it’s a fine Druid, but doesn’t belong in a villainous UA.

I feel that there is a lot of wasted space with the class. For each titan form, Size, Temporary HP, Attributes, Senses, Languages, and CR don't change. Speed types change, but not their values. You could cut it down to a generic use your Wisdom in place of Strength and Dexterity, your Speed is 40 and you gain an additional movement type based on the form chosen. That would cut the actual Titan descriptions down by a third.

Other observations

• Your form dictates what items you can use while wild shaped and you have pretty much free reign in choosing a form, so maximize the gear you can use in your titan form.
• Being able to substitute you Wisdom for your Strength and Dexterity for 1.5 to 10 hours at a time is pretty amazing.
• The ACs of the forms vary but can be rendered a nonissue depending on the options available to you.
  • Consider investing a Barrier Tattoo (Tasha's Cauldron of Everything), if possible. Even the Uncommon one gives you an AC of 12 + Dex Wis, a huge improvement but eats an Attunement slot.
  • Alternatively, a 1 level dip into Monk will set your AC to 10 + Dex Wis + Wis but this delays your Druid spells and other abilities.
• I agree that the Wild Shape Temporary Hit Points seem weak.
• Rend doesn't overtly scale with level but you will gain damage from primal strike once per turn to even it out a bit.
• I would have preferred Primal Savagery on the subclass spell list, but that would compete with Rend. Longstrider seems like an odd choice and I would maybe prefer Earth Tremor or Thunderwave, but those would highlight how bad Shock Wave is at 6th level.
• Shock Wave costing a spell slot is disappointing for an effect that requires a constitution saving throw (which tends to be a bad save to target). It's basically a worse Earth Tremor. I just don't think this will ever be a good use of a spell slot. If it's going to cost a spell slot, give it damage that scales by the slot used or just replace Longstrider with Earth Tremor and do something else at this level.
• Grappling Rend is a limited form of the Grappler Feat. I believe the Grappler Feat, devaluing that feat for this Druid Circle. If you want to focus on grappling and are considering Grappler, pay attention to the redundancy. Grappler would allow you to bypass the once per turn limit though by attacking with an unarmed strike instead of the rend attack.
• Swallow provides minor damage but 
• Specific Forms
  • Behemoth (Solid)
    • Rampager is sweet. Strength saving throws vary but are better to target than Constitution. It's a free chance for prone and damage! nice.
    • Siege Monster is flavorful, but I am not sure how much time I am going to attack objects and structures. However, I don't tend to play the villain...
    • Incandescent Breath: You're Godzilla. It's a decent ability, particularly since you can't cast spells, between this and Rampager, you have options in terms of what saves to target.
  • Leviathan (Meh)
    • Amphibious: Situationally useful.
    • Toxic Stench: Low damage plus a nasty condition but it targets a bad save and there is no effect on a successful save, not even half damage. Bleh.
    • Ink Cloud: Flavorful, but it costs a spell slot to lay down obscurement and move. I am not a fan. Perhaps cut the movement to half speed and add damage reduction based on the spell level?
    • You can only grapple one target via Grappling Rend, but if you are a "many-tentacled" Leviathan, how many targets can you grapple via Unarmed Strikes?
  • Insectoid (Wow! So much utility)
    • lowest AC.
    • Flying and Flyby! Wow. Flyby Cure Wounds.
    • Hive Mind: Being the Switchboard Operator isn't immediately OP or anything, but wow this is crazy useful. Unlimited range telepathic communication with 10-20 creatures is extremely useful. Nothing about this says it is magical so it's hard to shut down as long as you are wild shaped.
    • What is the action required for Healing Spores? If it is a generic Action and not a Magic action, you have group healing in Antimagic Fields. With a level 1 slot, this is on par with Cure Wounds, maybe slightly ahead (2d8 + 5 instead of 2d8 + Wis) at low levels. With a higher slot, Cure Wounds is better unless you need the group healing or the extra range.

SmiteMakesRight_3_5, agree with you about your recs to improve the spell list. Also agree that Shock Wave needs to scale, and it makes no sense that Rend does not scale with Titan size.

Other thoughts:

• I like imposing the auto-grapple condition from Grappling Rend.
• Swallow:
  • It would be nice if Swallowed creatures have limits on their attacks, e.g., when swallowed, must attack with a small slashing weapon, claws, or bite. It makes no sense for a Swallowed creature to attack with a large weapon.
  • IMO the concentration requirement for holding swallowed creatures is dumb, since it doesn't apply when monsters swallow whole.
• Thoughts on the 3 WS forms:
  • IMO when the Behemoth and Leviathan are Huge or Gargantuan, in addition to Swallow, they should be able to Fling smaller grappled creatures inflicting some amount of bludgeoning damage depending on size, and the Prone condition on a failed save. 
  • Behemoth: solid
  • Leviathan: solid, but the Toxic stench Poison damage should scale (like the Behemoth's Incandescent Breath)  
  • Insectoid: needs an offensive attack option other than Rend, e.g., Acid line.

I'll definitely submit this info in my UA feedback.

Easily my favorite WOTC druid in a long time but yeah, this thing is weak both offensively and defensively.

The temp HP should be:

• Large: PB * Druid level
• Huge: (PB + 1) * Druid level
• Gargantuan: (PB + 2) * Druid level
  • I believe this gargantuan scaling is what the moon druid should be too.

And the game is just garbanzo beans.

For the basic attack the 1d8 should go up an additional die amount based on size just like a normal creature cause that makes bloody sense.

The other things seem fine cause it's based off of save DC.

The behemoth breath attack is literally the only thing that has proper scaling.

Quote from Shoktona70>>

and it makes no sense that Rend does not scale with Titan size.

• At level 3, a hit is 1d8 + Wis (~7.5) vs 1d10 (~5.5)
• At level 7 let's assume Wisdom modifier is now +4 (1d8 + Wis (~8.5))
• At level 5, 2 hits are (1d8 + Wis) x 2 (~17) vs 2d10 (~11)
• At level 7 Druids get Elemental Fury, 2 hits are (1d8 + Wis) x 2 +1d8 (~21.5) vs 2d10 + Wis (~11)
• At level 8 let's assume Wisdom modifier is now +5 ((1d8 + Wis) x 2 +1d8 (~23.5) vs 2d10 + Wis (~12))
• At level 11, Primal Savagery gets a buff, (1d8 + Wis) x 2 +1d8 (~23.5) vs 3d10 + Wis (~17.5)
• At level 15 Druids get Improved Elemental Fury, (1d8 + Wis) x 2 +2d8 (~28) vs 3d10 + Wis (~17.5)
• At level 17, Primal Savagery gets its final buff, (1d8 + Wis) x 2 +2d8 (~28) vs 4d10 + Wis (~23)

So, Rend does not directly scale with level, but the damage in effect outpaces a similar Druid cantrip at every level. The damage type of Primal Savagery might be better from levels 3-5, but at level 6, Elemental Rend takes that advantage away and outdoes it.

Actually, now that I've done the math, because of Elemental Fury, I am okay with Rend not scaling.

Quote from Shoktona70>>

• It would be nice if Swallowed creatures have limits on their attacks, e.g., when swallowed, must attack with a small slashing weapon, claws, or bite. It makes no sense for a Swallowed creature to attack with a large weapon.
• IMO the concentration requirement for holding swallowed creatures is dumb, since it doesn't apply when monsters swallow whole.

I disagree with the Swallowed creature changes. I prefer them being the same as other creatures with the Swallow mechanic.

Actually, I think they could just make a Con save when you take damage with a belly full of hobbits halflings. Creatures with a swallow mechanic generally have a threshold of damage that triggers regurgitation. I think this mechanic would actually be a great standard for Swallow going forward. I just wouldn't tie it to concentration.

Quote from Shoktona70 >>

• Leviathan: solid, but the Toxic stench Poison damage should scale (like the Behemoth's Incandescent Breath)  

Oh, I missed that it doesn't scale. The ability is bad. Leviathan is the worst of the bunch. 

Quote from Shoktona70 >>

• Insectoid: needs an offensive attack option other than Rend, e.g., Acid line.

Hard disagree. Insectoid is an amazing utility option. If you picked Insectoid when Wild Shaping, you are anticipating on using those abilities. If they add a second attack, they will remove Energizing Pollen. Insectoid is the best of the forms, but if you need to deal damage for an encounter, choose Behemoth for that encounter.

I think all of the titans need better subclass spell options and/or Shock Wave needs to be improved.

Quote from Zutaradimus >>

The temp HP should be:

• Large: PB * Druid level
• Huge: (PB + 1) * Druid level
• Gargantuan: (PB + 2) * Druid level

This might be too much for the current game (despite the fact that we are talking about turning into Godzilla and Mothra). However, a tweaked version might fly. Large: 2 * Druid Level (same as UA); Huge: 3 * Druid Level (same as Moon Druid); Gargantuan: 4 * Druid Level (Go, Go, Godzilla!). I wouldn't even mind if the Insectoid was -1 to the temporary HP modifier 1/2/3.

Another alternative would be to give the Druid a method of replenishing temporary HP so that they may have a lower HP, but they have a method to sustain the form and stay large and in charge.