I prefer "arcane firearms" to the wand. The wand just seemed weird to me, and made the artillerist too dangerously close to a traditional spellcaster IMO.
Wandslingers are a cherished part of Eberron lore and flavor, I can see why they tried to make one. Frankly I wish they'd gone the whole distance with it and made a Wandslinger artificer subclass. Arcane guns don't really fit the whole Eberron thing, since even simple soldiers could learn to cast Firebolt and there wouldn't really be a need for traditional blackpowder weaponry to develop. Exotic and appealing to us in 21st century Earth, bulky and awkward to people who could get the same or better results from a finely carved wand.
Still. At least the Thunder Cannon deals godawful ridiculous overpowered damage, so the Artillerists get to be better ranged rogues. Poor alchemists get frozen out altogether. x_x
If the alchemist's satchel isn't random, and it makes better use of chemical compounds for utility and/or combat, I don't really have an issue. If anything, my main draw with the Alchemist was the fact that it gave you proficiency in Alchemist's Supplies and Herbalism Kits and gave you these things for free, which allows the character to be a walking healing potion factory or chemical analyzer. Being able to cast Lesser and Greater Restoration for free was also part of the draw with the 2019 UA Alchemist for me.
Part of the appeal of the artificer class in general for me is the fact that they're not defined by their subclass as much as other characters are. An alchemist has a specialty, but she still gets tinker's tools and whatever her choice of level 1 artisan's tools are as well as her alchemy; she's capable of building, doing, and being more than a futzy-haired poo flinger.
I liked the restoration spells as well, and the excellent utility of alchemy/herbalism Expertise. Frankly, despite Marine I mostly ignored the acid spells; my artificer fought with a crossbow, not an Acid Splash cantrip, and in point of fact I didn't bother with offensive cantrips at all. The allure of alchemy was a highly functional mechanical familiar, extremely good tool Expertise selections, and healthy access to useful spells the party healers never actually bother casting. That and doubling your INT bonus to Cure Wounds made for a surprisingly helpful pocket healing aid, helped stretch those limited spell slots a little bit further.
Suppose my beef with the Satchel is that 'Sack of Hurlin' Poo' is such a dismayingly uncreative solution for an "Alchemist", as well as being one that stomps all over the useful tool proficiencies. Why have fun trying to create unique and interesting new alchemical tools when the Sack of Hurlin' Poo says "these three or four things are what you know how to make. Use these, and forget your actual tool proficiencies"?
One of the things I liked most about my own artificer was working up special rules for magic-infused herbal teas, using the herbalism kit and alchemical knowledge. Some of which I squee'd about in this old thread. But in a world where the 2017 artificer comes back and the only 'Alchemy' you get is the Sack of Hurlin' Poo, how is one supposed to brew arcane teas? Or do anything else from that thread without any tool proficiencies?
Suppose my beef with the Satchel is that 'Sack of Hurlin' Poo' is such a dismayingly uncreative solution for an "Alchemist", as well as being one that stomps all over the useful tool proficiencies. Why have fun trying to create unique and interesting new alchemical tools when the Sack of Hurlin' Poo says "these three or four things are what you know how to make. Use these, and forget your actual tool proficiencies"?
One of the things I liked most about my own artificer was working up special rules for magic-infused herbal teas, using the herbalism kit and alchemical knowledge. Some of which I squee'd about in this old thread. But in a world where the 2017 artificer comes back and the only 'Alchemy' you get is the Sack of Hurlin' Poo, how is one supposed to brew arcane teas? Or do anything else from that thread without any tool proficiencies?
q_q
I don't see how the Alchemist's Satchel prevents one from using their tool proficiencies. You can have the Satchel and make other, more unique concoctions as well.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Mostly, the 2017 version they seem to be pulling back to gets all of two tool proficiencies, no specialty-related tools at all, and only applies Expertise to tools you get directly from the class, not to background or feat/training tools. Since artificers can't really be artificers without tinker's tools, I suppose I could do my teas if I decided to make the herbalism kit the ONE 'bonus' tool proficiency you get.
Mostly, the 2017 version they seem to be pulling back to gets all of two tool proficiencies, no specialty-related tools at all, and only applies Expertise to tools you get directly from the class, not to background or feat/training tools. Since artificers can't really be artificers without tinker's tools, I suppose I could do my teas if I decided to make the herbalism kit the ONE 'bonus' tool proficiency you get.
I don't think they're doing away with the proficiencies in thieves' tools, tinker's tools and one bonus tool you get in the base class, and the two specialist tool proficiencies you get with the subclass. Or at least I haven't seen any indication that they're doing that.
Mostly, the 2017 version they seem to be pulling back to gets all of two tool proficiencies, no specialty-related tools at all, and only applies Expertise to tools you get directly from the class, not to background or feat/training tools. Since artificers can't really be artificers without tinker's tools, I suppose I could do my teas if I decided to make the herbalism kit the ONE 'bonus' tool proficiency you get.
We don't know that they're taking away tool Expertise. You're making some big assumptions here. Why don't you wait and see the final product before getting upset about something that hasn't happened yet?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I never felt that wands fit the Artillerist. It just seemed out of place. I see the Artillerist that had someone who can rain down destruction or provide protection for their party members. I would rather see a separate Wandslinger subclass. A person who pulls out a wand and can lay a single enemy out or battle multiple enemies at a single time.
I agree that there should have been a separate Wandslinger subclass. Trying to combine what is essentially 2 different subclass just didn't feel right in my opinion. As for arcane guns, Eberron is supposed to be a land of inventors so I can see someone within Eberron inventing an arcane firearm.
The Thunder Cannon was indeed grossly overpowered. I mean by 9th level they could deal 2d6 piercing damage and an additional 4d6 thunder damage every round.
I didn't see an issue gaining proficiencies with Alchemist's Supplies and the Herbalism Kit. They fit the subclass. However, I agree that being able to cast lesser and greater restoration was too much it was like there was no need for a cleric. Casting Lesser Restoration a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier and Greater Restoration for free once per day. Just doesn't see right.
I didn't see an issue gaining proficiencies with Alchemist's Supplies and the Herbalism Kit. They fit the subclass. However, I agree that being able to cast lesser and greater restoration was too much it was like there was no need for a cleric. Casting Lesser Restoration a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier and Greater Restoration for free once per day. Just doesn't see right.
Druids and bards can cast the restoration spells too, if we're being fair. At 17th level, wizards and sorcerers can replicate these spells with wish.
I believe the whole idea behind the alchemist being able to cast them for free is that the alchemist has a deeper understanding of how to cure the things these spells can cure, and can thus find alternative methods of doing so. But these methods still use resources, hence the limited uses. In the case of Lesser Restoration, the more "intelligent" you are, the more you've refined whatever process is being used to get more uses out of it.
I never felt that wands fit the Artillerist. It just seemed out of place. I see the Artillerist that had someone who can rain down destruction or provide protection for their party members. I would rather see a separate Wandslinger subclass. A person who pulls out a wand and can lay a single enemy out or battle multiple enemies at a single time.
This may be an artifact of how Eberron inspired this class is, because in Eberron wandslingers are the gunslingers and an Arcane Firearm is basically a wand with a grip.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I didn't see an issue gaining proficiencies with Alchemist's Supplies and the Herbalism Kit. They fit the subclass. However, I agree that being able to cast lesser and greater restoration was too much it was like there was no need for a cleric. Casting Lesser Restoration a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier and Greater Restoration for free once per day. Just doesn't see right.
With a Artificer (Alchemist) you DON'T need a cleric as a HEALER. The Artificer would not be as good as a Life domain cleric at healing, but could funtion in place of a cleric healer. But then so could a bard or druid healer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I never felt that wands fit the Artillerist. It just seemed out of place. I see the Artillerist that had someone who can rain down destruction or provide protection for their party members. I would rather see a separate Wandslinger subclass. A person who pulls out a wand and can lay a single enemy out or battle multiple enemies at a single time.
This may be an artifact of how Eberron inspired this class is, because in Eberron wandslingers are the gunslingers and an Arcane Firearm is basically a wand with a grip.
In all the Eberron based novels I have read, and all the Eberron-based modules I have found/purchased, I have never seen a single firearm in Eberron. I have seen many references to wandslingers.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Yes the Druid and Bard can cast restoration spells. But In the case of the Bard, the player has to decided whether or not they want the restoration spells as they are stuck with it until they reach another level. As their spells are permanent. Especially when they reach level 20 and can no longer change out spells.
My issue with the 2019 Alchemist as there is no originality to the subclass. It is an expanded spellcaster with a pet (that is no better than the mechanical servant of the 2017 Artificer). Plus, who says the alchemist has a deeper understanding of how to cure things associated with restoration spells? And, who says the Alchemist has to be a healer? These spells specifically steer the Alchemist into the direction of a healer.
This is a problem with the 2019 Artificer (Alchemist). D&D specifically steered the Alchemist into the direction of a HEALER. You are correct that the Alchemist wouldn't be as good as a Life domain Cleric (let alone any Cleric) or even a Druid at healing. But nothing says a Bard has to select healing or restoration spells, it is up to the player. The 2019 Alchemist doesn't get that option. I would rather see the Alchemist Satchel and Alchemical Formulas make a return. To address healing and restoration, they can keep the Healing Draught formula and add another formula that addresses restoration. And since the player selected which alchemical formulas they wanted (even though by 17th level they had all 7 formulas) in the original 2017 Artificer (Alchemist), the player can decided if they want to chose the healing draught or restoration formulas or both.
Plus, who says the alchemist has a deeper understanding of how to cure things associated with restoration spells?
That's just what I inferred from "At 6th level, your command of magical chemicals has become masterful, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them." and "By 14th level, you have been exposed to so many chemicals and unlocked their secrets that they pose little risk to you, and you can use them to quickly end certain ailments." What these two statements and what the features actually do imply to me that the alchemist has become such an expert at using chemicals for restoration, they end up becoming more efficient at it.
I started with "I believe" because I'm aware that what I said is more opinion than fact.
I prefer "arcane firearms" to the wand. The wand just seemed weird to me, and made the artillerist too dangerously close to a traditional spellcaster IMO.
Wandslingers are a cherished part of Eberron lore and flavor, I can see why they tried to make one. Frankly I wish they'd gone the whole distance with it and made a Wandslinger artificer subclass. Arcane guns don't really fit the whole Eberron thing, since even simple soldiers could learn to cast Firebolt and there wouldn't really be a need for traditional blackpowder weaponry to develop. Exotic and appealing to us in 21st century Earth, bulky and awkward to people who could get the same or better results from a finely carved wand.
Still. At least the Thunder Cannon deals godawful ridiculous overpowered damage, so the Artillerists get to be better ranged rogues. Poor alchemists get frozen out altogether. x_x
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
If the alchemist's satchel isn't random, and it makes better use of chemical compounds for utility and/or combat, I don't really have an issue. If anything, my main draw with the Alchemist was the fact that it gave you proficiency in Alchemist's Supplies and Herbalism Kits and gave you these things for free, which allows the character to be a walking healing potion factory or chemical analyzer. Being able to cast Lesser and Greater Restoration for free was also part of the draw with the 2019 UA Alchemist for me.
Part of the appeal of the artificer class in general for me is the fact that they're not defined by their subclass as much as other characters are. An alchemist has a specialty, but she still gets tinker's tools and whatever her choice of level 1 artisan's tools are as well as her alchemy; she's capable of building, doing, and being more than a futzy-haired poo flinger.
I liked the restoration spells as well, and the excellent utility of alchemy/herbalism Expertise. Frankly, despite Marine I mostly ignored the acid spells; my artificer fought with a crossbow, not an Acid Splash cantrip, and in point of fact I didn't bother with offensive cantrips at all. The allure of alchemy was a highly functional mechanical familiar, extremely good tool Expertise selections, and healthy access to useful spells the party healers never actually bother casting. That and doubling your INT bonus to Cure Wounds made for a surprisingly helpful pocket healing aid, helped stretch those limited spell slots a little bit further.
Suppose my beef with the Satchel is that 'Sack of Hurlin' Poo' is such a dismayingly uncreative solution for an "Alchemist", as well as being one that stomps all over the useful tool proficiencies. Why have fun trying to create unique and interesting new alchemical tools when the Sack of Hurlin' Poo says "these three or four things are what you know how to make. Use these, and forget your actual tool proficiencies"?
One of the things I liked most about my own artificer was working up special rules for magic-infused herbal teas, using the herbalism kit and alchemical knowledge. Some of which I squee'd about in this old thread. But in a world where the 2017 artificer comes back and the only 'Alchemy' you get is the Sack of Hurlin' Poo, how is one supposed to brew arcane teas? Or do anything else from that thread without any tool proficiencies?
q_q
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
I don't see how the Alchemist's Satchel prevents one from using their tool proficiencies. You can have the Satchel and make other, more unique concoctions as well.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Mostly, the 2017 version they seem to be pulling back to gets all of two tool proficiencies, no specialty-related tools at all, and only applies Expertise to tools you get directly from the class, not to background or feat/training tools. Since artificers can't really be artificers without tinker's tools, I suppose I could do my teas if I decided to make the herbalism kit the ONE 'bonus' tool proficiency you get.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
I don't think they're doing away with the proficiencies in thieves' tools, tinker's tools and one bonus tool you get in the base class, and the two specialist tool proficiencies you get with the subclass. Or at least I haven't seen any indication that they're doing that.
We don't know that they're taking away tool Expertise. You're making some big assumptions here. Why don't you wait and see the final product before getting upset about something that hasn't happened yet?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I never felt that wands fit the Artillerist. It just seemed out of place. I see the Artillerist that had someone who can rain down destruction or provide protection for their party members. I would rather see a separate Wandslinger subclass. A person who pulls out a wand and can lay a single enemy out or battle multiple enemies at a single time.
I agree that there should have been a separate Wandslinger subclass. Trying to combine what is essentially 2 different subclass just didn't feel right in my opinion. As for arcane guns, Eberron is supposed to be a land of inventors so I can see someone within Eberron inventing an arcane firearm.
The Thunder Cannon was indeed grossly overpowered. I mean by 9th level they could deal 2d6 piercing damage and an additional 4d6 thunder damage every round.
I didn't see an issue gaining proficiencies with Alchemist's Supplies and the Herbalism Kit. They fit the subclass. However, I agree that being able to cast lesser and greater restoration was too much it was like there was no need for a cleric. Casting Lesser Restoration a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier and Greater Restoration for free once per day. Just doesn't see right.
While I'm not a fan of the Artificer getting Thieve's Tools, I don't see D&D getting rid of the initial 3 tool proficiencies.
Druids and bards can cast the restoration spells too, if we're being fair. At 17th level, wizards and sorcerers can replicate these spells with wish.
I believe the whole idea behind the alchemist being able to cast them for free is that the alchemist has a deeper understanding of how to cure the things these spells can cure, and can thus find alternative methods of doing so. But these methods still use resources, hence the limited uses. In the case of Lesser Restoration, the more "intelligent" you are, the more you've refined whatever process is being used to get more uses out of it.
This may be an artifact of how Eberron inspired this class is, because in Eberron wandslingers are the gunslingers and an Arcane Firearm is basically a wand with a grip.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
With a Artificer (Alchemist) you DON'T need a cleric as a HEALER. The Artificer would not be as good as a Life domain cleric at healing, but could funtion in place of a cleric healer. But then so could a bard or druid healer.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
In all the Eberron based novels I have read, and all the Eberron-based modules I have found/purchased, I have never seen a single firearm in Eberron. I have seen many references to wandslingers.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Right ... wands are the Eberron equivalent of a gun, is what I'm saying.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yes the Druid and Bard can cast restoration spells. But In the case of the Bard, the player has to decided whether or not they want the restoration spells as they are stuck with it until they reach another level. As their spells are permanent. Especially when they reach level 20 and can no longer change out spells.
My issue with the 2019 Alchemist as there is no originality to the subclass. It is an expanded spellcaster with a pet (that is no better than the mechanical servant of the 2017 Artificer). Plus, who says the alchemist has a deeper understanding of how to cure things associated with restoration spells? And, who says the Alchemist has to be a healer? These spells specifically steer the Alchemist into the direction of a healer.
This is a problem with the 2019 Artificer (Alchemist). D&D specifically steered the Alchemist into the direction of a HEALER. You are correct that the Alchemist wouldn't be as good as a Life domain Cleric (let alone any Cleric) or even a Druid at healing. But nothing says a Bard has to select healing or restoration spells, it is up to the player. The 2019 Alchemist doesn't get that option. I would rather see the Alchemist Satchel and Alchemical Formulas make a return. To address healing and restoration, they can keep the Healing Draught formula and add another formula that addresses restoration. And since the player selected which alchemical formulas they wanted (even though by 17th level they had all 7 formulas) in the original 2017 Artificer (Alchemist), the player can decided if they want to chose the healing draught or restoration formulas or both.
That's just what I inferred from "At 6th level, your command of magical chemicals has become masterful, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them." and "By 14th level, you have been exposed to so many chemicals and unlocked their secrets that they pose little risk to you, and you can use them to quickly end certain ailments." What these two statements and what the features actually do imply to me that the alchemist has become such an expert at using chemicals for restoration, they end up becoming more efficient at it.
I started with "I believe" because I'm aware that what I said is more opinion than fact.