I think you guys are reaching for details that are not worth it...
Seems to me like all you want is everything as a bonus action. I hate players who "wasting an action for this or that reason" seems to me like youre not grasping the point of the actions themselves.
Much like druids who pick moon as an archetype mostly because wildshapes becomes BA.
As for those who say it should be like spritual weapon more... Think of it first... Is spiritual weapon able to aoe ? Is it able to attack for 10 minutes ? The answer is losing an action to summon something versatile like the turret is the right way to go. If the artificer is better then the cleric then why pick clerics ?
To me, losing the action summoning a turret is fine because of all that it does. Its versatile, can guard, can move. It honestly is already stronger then spiritual weapon and yet just for like a few points of damage overall.... You want it to be much stronger then paladin smites and cleric spiritual weapons...
I just dont understand the point of those who can never use the dodge action or the disengage action saying its wasted...
There is never any waste unless you dont use it at all.
If using the turret results in less overall damage than not using the turret, then I won't use the turret (at least for single target damage). Thus, the concept is wasted.
I agree that changing the turret summons to a bonus action isn't the correct fix. However, I disagree that the turret is fine as it is. An action spent summoning the turret is an action not used for something else - summoning a damage turret has to be a net gain (since we only get two free summons).
I think using an action to get the AOE and the shielding benefits is fine. These are situational, and they should be worth an action. However, dropping a single target turret is not worth the action.
For quick fights at high level (3 rounds or less):
Summoning one does the same damage as not summoning, and summoning two does less. Since I only have a limited number of summons, I would rather save the summon for the AOE or the shielding effect. Thus, I wouldn't use the ballista ever.
At low levels, the action is worth it - the overall single target damage increases when using the turret. At high levels, it does not. This is a subclass ability - it needs to be good enough to use at any level.
Reread your text again and think...
Not using the turret equal 0 damage. Of course its not wasted to do so. But if you mean there are much better thing then using the turret then you are again biased by your own...
Heres why...
Warlock... Anything else then eldritch blast plus hex every turn is strickly worse.
Fighter battlemaster is literally the strongest fighter. Strickly worse, is everything else.
Monks... Anything aside the attack action is strickly worse.
Want me to go like that i can do that for all classes. So that argument becomes moot because all you are saying is... " if there is something stronger then i must use it" which is something only said by people who should be playing warhammer instead of dnd. If you start looking at strategies with those turrets instead of just damage you realise what the word versatility means and why these turrets are great. Otherwise you are creating just another one button warlock.
Also...
Why are people always thinking fights are always ended in one turn ? My fights always go up to 5-8 turns sometimes more.
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Want me to go like that i can do that for all classes. So that argument becomes moot because all you are saying is... " if there is something stronger then i must use it" which is something only said by people who should be playing warhammer instead of dnd. If you start looking at strategies with those turrets instead of just damage you realise what the word versatility means and why these turrets are great. Otherwise you are creating just another one button warlock.
I happen to like Warhammer too :P
I did think of the versatility. Like I said, when it comes to the non-single-target damage portions of the turret, everything is fine the way it is. The flamethrower and the shielding aspects are balanced for costing an action, and I'm willing to lose single-target damage if the AOE or the defensive turrets are needed..
Just because they're versatile, though, doesn't mean I should ignore the damage aspect. If the creators give a single target damaging option when summoning the turret, it should do more damage than if I didn't summon it. That's the issue I have. I do min-max and play my character to the best of my ability - that's who I am - so if it does less damage to summon the turret, then I won't, because I'll be saving it for the situations where the other turrets are better.
Yes, the single target turret ends up doing more damage the more turns you have, but at least in our campaigns, not enough turns pass to make it worthwhile. Non-boss encounters in our group generally run between 2-4 rounds, depending.
Agreed, I'm actually fine with it taking an Action to summon the turret.
Personally I just think at level 14 you should be able to use your action to summon up to two turrets. The two action cost is huge and causes the Artillerist to be quite narrow (boring) in what it does early in combat.
Look we have had this discussion a lot but the new people coming into the thread continuously have the same first statement, the offensive capability of the turret is underwhelming compared to the versatility and defence it offers.
I think the reason is just that Artillerist name implies a subclass that focuses damage same as Berserker Barbarian.
At this point I would be fine with changing the name of this spec to something like Tactician and adding a proper Wandslinger class that could be there for people looking for a striker play style. (I am not saying that is the only or best play style but it is common and equally valid to yours so should be a consideration)
@DnDPaladin, you have brought me around, I would be fine with it staying an standard action. Having said that, I also wouldn't be against it becoming a bonus action as well. More stuff is more good :P
Guys, DnDPaladin has been on the money this whole time. Ultimately Crawford and the crew are angling as a support class, not a nova class. He stated all these things in the DnDBeyond interview spotlight. It’s meant to be a class of options, both for a main action and a bonus. The turret is an option, yes even though it’s called an Artillerist, the turret doesn’t define what they’re angling for. Main action is balanced. Their damage is balanced.
*Hate mail ensues*
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Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired) Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
@Spikepit I can only speak for myself, but I have tried not to compare the artificer with a damage class. In fact I have consistently thought it was laughable that people were trying to compare the artificer's damage output to that of a fighter.
However, my points have been regarding the artillerist's clunkiness in combat. Many of their support abilities come from their infusions, which passively boost the party in combat and as a half caster their spells are only a small part of combat.
That leaves, for the artillerist, their turret being the main thing they focus on during combat. It honestly leaves for a boring turn or two, as they setup. The alchemist doesn't fall into this trap considering their homonculus is always on and has several bonus action abilities it can use.
My main "complaint" in the artillerist isn't damage output, it is mundane turns.
Imagine a Bard, a support class, who had to spend a MA to “Begin playing guitar” so he could use Bardic inspiration. And then had to spend next MA to “Play louder” so his Bardic inspiration die became a d8 and so on each turn if he wanted to use d10 or d12. Ohhh and had to use a MA to switch to flute to use cutting words of course. 2 free instrument per day then it breaks and have to spend spellslots to restart the music.
But it is okay he has Song of Rest, Expertise, Jack of all trades, high charisma and out of combat you can take 1 minute to set up Bardic Inspiration (still subject to Cha Mod limit, instrument limit and 10m Inspiration length, play more tactically: cue image of BBEG sitting on a throne and a rock concert starting in next room)
But It Is a support class you aren’t supposed to do anything in combat with your key feature...
Spiritual weapon does only 1d8 as a bonus action. This does 2d6 as a ballista. Which means the weapon does between 1 and 8. While the ballista does between 2 and 12 damage. Much better already.
you either forgot it or intentionally omitted it: spiritual weapon adds your spellcasting modifier. so it does more damage than 1-8.
the average damage of a d6 is 4 so 2d6 averaged is 8 damage. the average damage of a d8 is 5 + spellcasting mod of at least 3 and the damage is actually equal and gets better.
i agree that the versatility of the turret is far better however the argument of "no resources" is skewed aswell. only the first time used is for free and every consecutive use costs a spell slot and it does not scale with spell slots. so you "have to" use 1st level spell slots in order to maximize cost/power efficiency. which means that you will be casting less 1st level spells if you want to use your class feature.
also the spiritual weapon cannot be destroyed unless you use dispel magic whereas the turret can be "quite easily" destroyed (which is an advantage and a disadvantage at the same time. as the turret soaks damage which can be a benefit to the group)
scaling: at level 14 you gain a second turret. let's assume a cleric for the spiritual weapon and they would have the following spellslots:
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
at 14th level the chance for a +5 modifier in your mainstat is pretty high so let's assume that.
2 turrets would average 16 dpr.
spiritual weapon as a second level spell (basic) deals 1d8+5= 10 dpr only 6 short.
spiritual weapon's damage scales in 2 spellslot increments so you would have to use a 4th level slot for the next increment.
that would be 2d8+5= 15 only 1 dpr short.
a cleric has 3 4th level slots at that level and an artificer only has 4 1st level slots (as anyone has).
after the first combat you would have to spend 2 1st level slots to keep up with the dpr of spiritual weapon as a 4th level spellslot. yes a 4th level slot is obviously worth way more BUT it does not hurt a full caster as much as it hurts a half caster to spend their resources and get NO SCALING out of them.
another point: turrets use RANGED spell attacks which means they can have disadvantage for being in melee (not sure if the caster or the turret has to be in melee for the disadvantage), have to account for cover and have disadvantage if the target is knocked prone.
So are we intentionally forgetting the Ballista does 2d8 Force and not 2d6?
Also, regarding the Ballista being ranged, the wording on the Ballista is that you "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the turret", meaning it is the artificer that is making the ranged spell attack, and not the Ballista itself. Yes that does mean you have disadvantage if the turret is in melee, but there is a very high chance you will have the Crossbow Expert feat and that disadvantage will be removed.
I do agree that there should be some sort of scaling based on spell slots, not based on Artificer level. In fact, I did mention something similar previously within this thread.
So are we intentionally forgetting the Ballista does 2d8 Force and not 2d6?
well that's what you get for assuming your "opponent" has their facts straight. well that would "only" increase the dpr by 2 and 4 respectively for 1 or 2 turrets. but yeah it would shift the balance to be kinda equal with disadvantages and advantages weighed against eachother.
1 turret would net 10 dpr and a spiritual weapon would net ~8 dpr at +3 spellmod
Grizzlebub but scaling with spell slot is going to get to a stage where the BA damage is very high, once you are fully set up. Why not fix the deployment so you feel like you are doing proper turns rather than scaling more into the turret or ignoring it.
I still don’t get why BA summon is not the best solution? (Be that including Free Turret Attack or not, at least that way you lose 2d8 not a 2 full weapon attacks)
PS. Crossbow expert is a very stacked feat, ignoring the loading, ignoring the ranged attack, and granting a BA attack. If you are assuming Crossbow Expert the calculations for dropping the turret get Even worse to a point where it would take 8-10 turns to become beneficial I think.
Grizzlebub but scaling with spell slot is going to get to a stage where the BA damage is very high, once you are fully set up. Why not fix the deployment so you feel like you are doing proper turns rather than scaling more into the turret or ignoring it.
I still don’t get why BA summon is not the best solution? (Be that including Free Turret Attack or not, at least that way you lose 2d8 not a 2 full weapon attacks)
PS. Crossbow expert is a very stacked feat, ignoring the loading, ignoring the ranged attack, and granting a BA attack. If you are assuming Crossbow Expert the calculations for dropping the turret get Even worse to a point where it would take 8-10 turns to become beneficial I think.
True, scaling with spell slots can be difficult to balance. And even if you do that it would still not solve the main problem: The general lack of variability between turns, causing the Artillerist to be boring during the first few turns of combat.
Personally, I'm fine with the action to summon, I just think that at level 14 it should be summon up to to turrets instead of forcing the user to spend 2 actions to summon the turrets.
Another thought that might make the combat more exciting for the Artillerist and make the turrets better... why require the artillerist to choose a specific arcane turret when summoning it? One of the things that makes the Alchemist shine in combat is the sheer flexibility of the Homunculus and the number of abilities it has during combat.
I think one of the downfalls of the Artillerist is that the lack of variation to turns within combat, which makes their turns quite boring. If you allow the Artificer to choose between the three activation types on each turn that adds variation and excitement and removes the doldrums that can form during their turn. Essentially, allow the Artillerist to choose between Flamethrower, Force Ballista and Defense Shielding each time it activates as a bonus action.
Just to say... If your opponent wastes his action to destroy your turret... Hes the one wasting his action. Thus the spell slot to cast the turret is a moot point.
Why would any intelligent enemi waste his action destroying your turret while destroying the artificer actually stops the turret from attacking.
At this point... Again... You guys are reaching and nit picking on details that have no significance.
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Why would any intelligent enemi waste his action destroying your turret while destroying the artificer actually stops the turret from attacking.
have you heard of AOE damage? also the turret can't really run away unlike the artificer. and just to be clear: it was a comparisson of spiritual weapon vs turret and nothing else. you know to evaluate something you have to list ALL the cons and pros and not only those that fit your viewpoint.
it feels kinda pointless arguing with you when you ignore the majority of my points. have a good day sir.
My proposed changes to the Arcane Turret and Fortified Position class features (Underline for emphasis on changes):
Arcane Turret
At 3rd level, you learn how to create a magical turret. With your artisan tools in hand, you can take an action to magically summon a Medium turret in an unoccupied space on a horizontal surface within 5 feet of you.
The turret is a magical object that occupies its space and has crablike legs. It has an AC of 18 and a number of hit points equal to five times your artificer level. It is immune to poison and psychic damage and all conditions. If it is forced to make an ability check or a saving throw, treat its ability score as 10 (+0). If the mending spell is cast on it, it regains 2d6 hit points. It disappears if it is reduced to 0 hit points or after 10 minutes. You can dismiss it early as an action.
On each of your turns, you can take a bonus action to cause the turret to activate if you are within 60 feet of it. When activated, choose from one of the options listed on the Bonus Action Activation List. As part of the activation, you can direct the turret to walk or climb up to 15 feet to an unoccupied space.
You can summon a turret once for free and must finish a long rest before doing so again. You can also summon the turret by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher. If you summon a second turret, the first turret disappears.
Bonus Action Activation List
Arcane Charge: The turret accelerates rapidly, moving in a straight line of 15 feet. If this movement causes the turret to run into a creature, the turret stops moving and that creature must make a Strength saving throw against your spell save DC, taking 1d8 bludgeoning damage on a failed save and being knocked prone. Defensive Shielding: The turret emits a burst of positive energy that grants itself and each creature of your choice within 10 feet of it a number of temporary hit points equal to 1d8 + your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1). Flamethrower: The turret exhales fire in an adjacent 15-foot cone that you designate. Each creature in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC, taking 1d8 fire damage on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one. The fire ignites any flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried. Force Ballista: Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the turret, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it. On a hit, the target takes 2d8 force damage, and if the target is a creature, it is pushed up to 5 feet away from the turret. Self Destruct: Activating your turret to self destruct destroys the turret and forces each creature within 10 feet of it to make a Dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC, taking 4d6 force damage on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one.
Fortified Position
Starting at 14th level, you’re a master at conjuring a well-defended emplacement. You and your allies have half cover (+2 to AC and Dexterity Saves) while within 10 feet of a turret you create with Arcane Turret, as a result of a shimmering field of magical protection that the turret emits.
You can also now summon a second turret for free and must finish a long rest before doing so again. If you summon the second turret while the first is still present, the first one doesn’t disappear. Additionally, you can summon up to two turrets when you use your action to summon. If you summon a third turret, the first turret vanishes. Moreover, you can use one bonus action to activate both turrets.
Okay, why don't we all calm down, folks? We aren't here to fight with each other, we're here to discuss the Artificer in this latest Unearthed Arcana; for all we know, WotC might take this whole thing and throw it all away in favor of something else several months down the line like they did with the last version of the class. Right now, we're all just formulating our thoughts for feedback, that's all. We're all going to have different opinions on what changes should or shouldn't be made, and that's fine. There's no need to be antagonistic to one another, we're just giving our thoughts, many of those thoughts are going to conflict, and that's perfectly fine. If someone doesn't agree with you, it's not the end of the world, that's just their opinion. Be respectful, give your opinion, respect when other opinions differ from your own, and refine the ideas you think work best. Just. Don't. Fight.
Thanks Mezzurah I know I sometimes have to go back and try to edit antagonistic language, will try harder. I think an aim could be polite debate with the goal of people seeing this thread being swayed to give similar feedback to one side of the Argument. I think the only thing that has annoyed me is ignoring one point to focus just one thing you disagree with and pasting numbers without fact checking (especially when it supports the side you are defending) I tend to google the numbers and edit if I made a mistake before people see in this thread.
@Grizzlebub I am 100% on board with that as a solution, you have extended the lifetime indefinitely meaning it shouldn’t ever be not out at the start of combat and I think that is a good change even if it comes with the turret becoming more squishy and losing object tag so you actually have to fear losing it. (Or running from an enemy you’d have to abandon the 15ft speed turret, although I think your BA can make it 30ft speed, that is the intent right?)
However as others have pointed out this reduces the tactician feel of holding to drop the turret at the right time. In which case you would want to summon right before combat but should not be so detrimentally punished if surprised into combat (or socially started combat where Dropping the Turret is a Declaration or War)
Let me know if I misunderstood anything. I see two paths more long term or more tactical but I prefer not more damage in any way and definitely not as it is now. Glad we do agree in essence if not in execution.
@Arutha. The "Arcane Charge" ability still has the 15 feet of movement implicitly included during activation. That does mean if you use the Arcane Charge ability you can move 30 feet, of which 15 must be in a straight line and if you hit a creature during that 15 feet straight line "charge" your movement stops and causes the strength save.
Also, I'm not sure it extends the lifetime "indefinitely", since it does disappear after a short or long rest and it is still a magical object. I did contemplate changing it to a construct, if only for simplicity sake, since there are a lot of "hidden" features that it being an object entails. That being said I do sway back and forth between this. Because of this, extending the turret duration to short or long rest seems redundant. So I could easily see setting it back to 10 minutes. In fact, I just updated it to that fact).
The biggest problem I (and my proposed solutions) are:
Problem: The inflexibility of the feature, causing monotonous combat situations for the Artificer.
Solutions:
Changed the turret so that upon activation you choose from a list of activation abilities.
Updated the Self Destruct to be a bonus action activation and upped the damage from 3d6 to 4d6 since you cannot activate and self-destruct on the same turn now.
Added an activation ability that allows increased mobility in the form of Arcane Charge.
At level 14 you can summon up to 2 turrets with one action.
(or socially started combat where Dropping the Turret is a Declaration or War)
"It was going so well, our bard had almost convinced the Thieves' Guild to let us go. But then the Artificer 'Dropped the Turret' and all hell broke loose."
Thought Experiment for a new feature. "Drop the Turret: When rolling initiative, if you have a free use of your Arcane Turret, you may deploy it in an adjacent square if one is available."
Reread your text again and think...
Not using the turret equal 0 damage. Of course its not wasted to do so. But if you mean there are much better thing then using the turret then you are again biased by your own...
Heres why...
Warlock... Anything else then eldritch blast plus hex every turn is strickly worse.
Fighter battlemaster is literally the strongest fighter. Strickly worse, is everything else.
Monks... Anything aside the attack action is strickly worse.
Want me to go like that i can do that for all classes. So that argument becomes moot because all you are saying is... " if there is something stronger then i must use it" which is something only said by people who should be playing warhammer instead of dnd. If you start looking at strategies with those turrets instead of just damage you realise what the word versatility means and why these turrets are great. Otherwise you are creating just another one button warlock.
Also...
Why are people always thinking fights are always ended in one turn ? My fights always go up to 5-8 turns sometimes more.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
I happen to like Warhammer too :P
I did think of the versatility. Like I said, when it comes to the non-single-target damage portions of the turret, everything is fine the way it is. The flamethrower and the shielding aspects are balanced for costing an action, and I'm willing to lose single-target damage if the AOE or the defensive turrets are needed..
Just because they're versatile, though, doesn't mean I should ignore the damage aspect. If the creators give a single target damaging option when summoning the turret, it should do more damage than if I didn't summon it. That's the issue I have. I do min-max and play my character to the best of my ability - that's who I am - so if it does less damage to summon the turret, then I won't, because I'll be saving it for the situations where the other turrets are better.
Yes, the single target turret ends up doing more damage the more turns you have, but at least in our campaigns, not enough turns pass to make it worthwhile. Non-boss encounters in our group generally run between 2-4 rounds, depending.
~~Quaza
@DnDPaladin
Agreed, I'm actually fine with it taking an Action to summon the turret.
Personally I just think at level 14 you should be able to use your action to summon up to two turrets. The two action cost is huge and causes the Artillerist to be quite narrow (boring) in what it does early in combat.
@DnDPaladin
Look we have had this discussion a lot but the new people coming into the thread continuously have the same first statement, the offensive capability of the turret is underwhelming compared to the versatility and defence it offers.
I think the reason is just that Artillerist name implies a subclass that focuses damage same as Berserker Barbarian.
At this point I would be fine with changing the name of this spec to something like Tactician and adding a proper Wandslinger class that could be there for people looking for a striker play style. (I am not saying that is the only or best play style but it is common and equally valid to yours so should be a consideration)
@DnDPaladin, you have brought me around, I would be fine with it staying an standard action. Having said that, I also wouldn't be against it becoming a bonus action as well. More stuff is more good :P
David Gearlock | Human | Artificer | Revenge Heist
Knox | Warforged | Cleric | Shadowthorn's Out of the Abyss
Guys, DnDPaladin has been on the money this whole time. Ultimately Crawford and the crew are angling as a support class, not a nova class. He stated all these things in the DnDBeyond interview spotlight. It’s meant to be a class of options, both for a main action and a bonus. The turret is an option, yes even though it’s called an Artillerist, the turret doesn’t define what they’re angling for. Main action is balanced. Their damage is balanced.
*Hate mail ensues*
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired)
Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer
Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden
DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
@Spikepit I can only speak for myself, but I have tried not to compare the artificer with a damage class. In fact I have consistently thought it was laughable that people were trying to compare the artificer's damage output to that of a fighter.
However, my points have been regarding the artillerist's clunkiness in combat. Many of their support abilities come from their infusions, which passively boost the party in combat and as a half caster their spells are only a small part of combat.
That leaves, for the artillerist, their turret being the main thing they focus on during combat. It honestly leaves for a boring turn or two, as they setup. The alchemist doesn't fall into this trap considering their homonculus is always on and has several bonus action abilities it can use.
My main "complaint" in the artillerist isn't damage output, it is mundane turns.
Imagine a Bard, a support class, who had to spend a MA to “Begin playing guitar” so he could use Bardic inspiration. And then had to spend next MA to “Play louder” so his Bardic inspiration die became a d8 and so on each turn if he wanted to use d10 or d12. Ohhh and had to use a MA to switch to flute to use cutting words of course. 2 free instrument per day then it breaks and have to spend spellslots to restart the music.
But it is okay he has Song of Rest, Expertise, Jack of all trades, high charisma and out of combat you can take 1 minute to set up Bardic Inspiration (still subject to Cha Mod limit, instrument limit and 10m Inspiration length, play more tactically: cue image of BBEG sitting on a throne and a rock concert starting in next room)
But It Is a support class you aren’t supposed to do anything in combat with your key feature...
you either forgot it or intentionally omitted it: spiritual weapon adds your spellcasting modifier. so it does more damage than 1-8.
the average damage of a d6 is 4 so 2d6 averaged is 8 damage. the average damage of a d8 is 5 + spellcasting mod of at least 3 and the damage is actually equal and gets better.
i agree that the versatility of the turret is far better however the argument of "no resources" is skewed aswell. only the first time used is for free and every consecutive use costs a spell slot and it does not scale with spell slots. so you "have to" use 1st level spell slots in order to maximize cost/power efficiency. which means that you will be casting less 1st level spells if you want to use your class feature.
also the spiritual weapon cannot be destroyed unless you use dispel magic whereas the turret can be "quite easily" destroyed (which is an advantage and a disadvantage at the same time. as the turret soaks damage which can be a benefit to the group)
scaling: at level 14 you gain a second turret. let's assume a cleric for the spiritual weapon and they would have the following spellslots:
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
at 14th level the chance for a +5 modifier in your mainstat is pretty high so let's assume that.
2 turrets would average 16 dpr.
spiritual weapon as a second level spell (basic) deals 1d8+5= 10 dpr only 6 short.
spiritual weapon's damage scales in 2 spellslot increments so you would have to use a 4th level slot for the next increment.
that would be 2d8+5= 15 only 1 dpr short.
a cleric has 3 4th level slots at that level and an artificer only has 4 1st level slots (as anyone has).
after the first combat you would have to spend 2 1st level slots to keep up with the dpr of spiritual weapon as a 4th level spellslot. yes a 4th level slot is obviously worth way more BUT it does not hurt a full caster as much as it hurts a half caster to spend their resources and get NO SCALING out of them.
another point: turrets use RANGED spell attacks which means they can have disadvantage for being in melee (not sure if the caster or the turret has to be in melee for the disadvantage), have to account for cover and have disadvantage if the target is knocked prone.
So are we intentionally forgetting the Ballista does 2d8 Force and not 2d6?
Also, regarding the Ballista being ranged, the wording on the Ballista is that you "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the turret", meaning it is the artificer that is making the ranged spell attack, and not the Ballista itself. Yes that does mean you have disadvantage if the turret is in melee, but there is a very high chance you will have the Crossbow Expert feat and that disadvantage will be removed.
I do agree that there should be some sort of scaling based on spell slots, not based on Artificer level. In fact, I did mention something similar previously within this thread.
well that's what you get for assuming your "opponent" has their facts straight. well that would "only" increase the dpr by 2 and 4 respectively for 1 or 2 turrets. but yeah it would shift the balance to be kinda equal with disadvantages and advantages weighed against eachother.
1 turret would net 10 dpr and a spiritual weapon would net ~8 dpr at +3 spellmod
Grizzlebub but scaling with spell slot is going to get to a stage where the BA damage is very high, once you are fully set up. Why not fix the deployment so you feel like you are doing proper turns rather than scaling more into the turret or ignoring it.
I still don’t get why BA summon is not the best solution? (Be that including Free Turret Attack or not, at least that way you lose 2d8 not a 2 full weapon attacks)
PS. Crossbow expert is a very stacked feat, ignoring the loading, ignoring the ranged attack, and granting a BA attack. If you are assuming Crossbow Expert the calculations for dropping the turret get Even worse to a point where it would take 8-10 turns to become beneficial I think.
True, scaling with spell slots can be difficult to balance. And even if you do that it would still not solve the main problem: The general lack of variability between turns, causing the Artillerist to be boring during the first few turns of combat.
Personally, I'm fine with the action to summon, I just think that at level 14 it should be summon up to to turrets instead of forcing the user to spend 2 actions to summon the turrets.
Another thought that might make the combat more exciting for the Artillerist and make the turrets better... why require the artillerist to choose a specific arcane turret when summoning it? One of the things that makes the Alchemist shine in combat is the sheer flexibility of the Homunculus and the number of abilities it has during combat.
I think one of the downfalls of the Artillerist is that the lack of variation to turns within combat, which makes their turns quite boring. If you allow the Artificer to choose between the three activation types on each turn that adds variation and excitement and removes the doldrums that can form during their turn. Essentially, allow the Artillerist to choose between Flamethrower, Force Ballista and Defense Shielding each time it activates as a bonus action.
Just to say... If your opponent wastes his action to destroy your turret... Hes the one wasting his action. Thus the spell slot to cast the turret is a moot point.
Why would any intelligent enemi waste his action destroying your turret while destroying the artificer actually stops the turret from attacking.
At this point... Again... You guys are reaching and nit picking on details that have no significance.
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have you heard of AOE damage? also the turret can't really run away unlike the artificer. and just to be clear: it was a comparisson of spiritual weapon vs turret and nothing else. you know to evaluate something you have to list ALL the cons and pros and not only those that fit your viewpoint.
it feels kinda pointless arguing with you when you ignore the majority of my points. have a good day sir.
My proposed changes to the Arcane Turret and Fortified Position class features (Underline for emphasis on changes):
Arcane Turret
At 3rd level, you learn how to create a magical turret. With your artisan tools in hand, you can take an action to magically summon a Medium turret in an unoccupied space on a horizontal surface within 5 feet of you.
The turret is a magical object that occupies its space and has crablike legs. It has an AC of 18 and a number of hit points equal to five times your artificer level. It is immune to poison and psychic damage and all conditions. If it is forced to make an ability check or a saving throw, treat its ability score as 10 (+0). If the mending spell is cast on it, it regains 2d6 hit points. It disappears if it is reduced to 0 hit points or after 10 minutes. You can dismiss it early as an action.
On each of your turns, you can take a bonus action to cause the turret to activate if you are within 60 feet of it. When activated, choose from one of the options listed on the Bonus Action Activation List. As part of the activation, you can direct the turret to walk or climb up to 15 feet to an unoccupied space.
You can summon a turret once for free and must finish a long rest before doing so again. You can also summon the turret by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher. If you summon a second turret, the first turret disappears.
Bonus Action Activation List
Arcane Charge: The turret accelerates rapidly, moving in a straight line of 15 feet. If this movement causes the turret to run into a creature, the turret stops moving and that creature must make a Strength saving throw against your spell save DC, taking 1d8 bludgeoning damage on a failed save and being knocked prone.
Defensive Shielding: The turret emits a burst of positive energy that grants itself and each creature of your choice within 10 feet of it a number of temporary hit points equal to 1d8 + your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).
Flamethrower: The turret exhales fire in an adjacent 15-foot cone that you designate. Each creature in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC, taking 1d8 fire damage on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one. The fire ignites any flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried.
Force Ballista: Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the turret, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it. On a hit, the target takes 2d8 force damage, and if the target is a creature, it is pushed up to 5 feet away from the turret.
Self Destruct: Activating your turret to self destruct destroys the turret and forces each creature within 10 feet of it to make a Dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC, taking 4d6 force damage on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one.
Fortified Position
Starting at 14th level, you’re a master at conjuring a well-defended emplacement. You and your allies have half cover (+2 to AC and Dexterity Saves) while within 10 feet of a turret you create with Arcane Turret, as a result of a shimmering field of magical protection that the turret emits.
You can also now summon a second turret for free and must finish a long rest before doing so again. If you summon the second turret while the first is still present, the first one doesn’t disappear. Additionally, you can summon up to two turrets when you use your action to summon. If you summon a third turret, the first turret vanishes. Moreover, you can use one bonus action to activate both turrets.
Okay, why don't we all calm down, folks? We aren't here to fight with each other, we're here to discuss the Artificer in this latest Unearthed Arcana; for all we know, WotC might take this whole thing and throw it all away in favor of something else several months down the line like they did with the last version of the class. Right now, we're all just formulating our thoughts for feedback, that's all. We're all going to have different opinions on what changes should or shouldn't be made, and that's fine. There's no need to be antagonistic to one another, we're just giving our thoughts, many of those thoughts are going to conflict, and that's perfectly fine. If someone doesn't agree with you, it's not the end of the world, that's just their opinion. Be respectful, give your opinion, respect when other opinions differ from your own, and refine the ideas you think work best. Just. Don't. Fight.
Thanks Mezzurah I know I sometimes have to go back and try to edit antagonistic language, will try harder. I think an aim could be polite debate with the goal of people seeing this thread being swayed to give similar feedback to one side of the Argument. I think the only thing that has annoyed me is ignoring one point to focus just one thing you disagree with and pasting numbers without fact checking (especially when it supports the side you are defending) I tend to google the numbers and edit if I made a mistake before people see in this thread.
@Grizzlebub I am 100% on board with that as a solution, you have extended the lifetime indefinitely meaning it shouldn’t ever be not out at the start of combat and I think that is a good change even if it comes with the turret becoming more squishy and losing object tag so you actually have to fear losing it. (Or running from an enemy you’d have to abandon the 15ft speed turret, although I think your BA can make it 30ft speed, that is the intent right?)
However as others have pointed out this reduces the tactician feel of holding to drop the turret at the right time. In which case you would want to summon right before combat but should not be so detrimentally punished if surprised into combat (or socially started combat where Dropping the Turret is a Declaration or War)
Let me know if I misunderstood anything. I see two paths more long term or more tactical but I prefer not more damage in any way and definitely not as it is now. Glad we do agree in essence if not in execution.
@Arutha. The "Arcane Charge" ability still has the 15 feet of movement implicitly included during activation. That does mean if you use the Arcane Charge ability you can move 30 feet, of which 15 must be in a straight line and if you hit a creature during that 15 feet straight line "charge" your movement stops and causes the strength save.
Also, I'm not sure it extends the lifetime "indefinitely", since it does disappear after a short or long rest and it is still a magical object. I did contemplate changing it to a construct, if only for simplicity sake, since there are a lot of "hidden" features that it being an object entails. That being said I do sway back and forth between this. Because of this, extending the turret duration to short or long rest seems redundant. So I could easily see setting it back to 10 minutes. In fact, I just updated it to that fact).
The biggest problem I (and my proposed solutions) are:
"It was going so well, our bard had almost convinced the Thieves' Guild to let us go. But then the Artificer 'Dropped the Turret' and all hell broke loose."
Thought Experiment for a new feature. "Drop the Turret: When rolling initiative, if you have a free use of your Arcane Turret, you may deploy it in an adjacent square if one is available."