Honestly, I think this update overall just sort of betrays the fact that...the creators don't seem especially sure what Artificers are meant to BE.
Now, I can't speak for everybody, but as a fan of the version prior to this update, I made an Artificer of each of the available subclasses, and had fun with them both. There's already been no shortage of talk about the Gunsmith largely hitting closer to what players seem to want than the odd turret situation the new alternative offers up - as the Gunsmith, while imperfect balancing-wise, both provides an accepted version of the classic 'Gunslinger' while playing to one of the predominant images of an Artificer-type character: a guy with one main gadget they're constantly tweaking and updating, scaling up in power and uses. With this, I played as a Warforged Gunsmith who'd built his Thunder Cannon as a magical sixgun, his mechanical deadeye giving him deadly aim as he fights a highly ineffective one-man-war on the organic life that built him to serve as a cleaning drone - even having his mechanical servant be a roomba-type thing he dubs a 'Doomba' with the stats of a Giant Spider, modifying it with legs as he tries to indoctrinate it into 'the metal revolution'. Some tweaks on the particular mechanics and scaling of that Thunder Cannon would help, but the tech-savvy gunslinger archetype it lends itself to is something seperate from, say, archers or spellcasters. It feels like it's own thing.
Then there's Alchemist, which I feel got even worse served - as I think it's a fairly predominant thought that when thinking of an Alchemist class in a fantasy game, what comes to mind is someone constantly brewing up potions to chuck to heal allies, debuff enemies, and use as bombs. This is what the old Alchemist appealed to - a manic inventor tossing out bottles of lord-knows-what with plenty of options from smoke-bombs to terrain-changers. Paired with a mechanical servant built designed after a winged creature, I had loads of fun making having an aerial bomber dropping potions from above, or chucking down bombs while standing on their flying mechanical aid Green Goblin style as it soared overhead. Meanwhile, this new Alchemist, just...doesn't focus on potions. The crux of an Alchemist. Rather, it prioritizes a Homunculus, which has all the problems of a mechanical servant feeling 'tacked on', yet without the advantage of some variety and customization to make the creature what you'd like it to be, instead stuck as a tiny pest that's effectively just a poison-spewing familiar. The Crafting Rules simply don't allow for the supposed potioneers to get POTIONS without more time and wealth than many campaigns offer up, and leaves the Alchemist just feeling like a worse echo of any other healer or debuff-focused spellcaster. It's an Alchemist...without potions. What the class needed was a hard buff, honestly - toss in some new features, up the variety, not down. The Infusions just don't offer enough to really make either subclass feel like itself.
Honestly, I'll be sticking to the prior version - as while its not the most powerful option mechanically, it at least feels like an Artificer, through-and-through. I'd say sticking with the original outline of it and making tweaks and additions would be the best way to move going forward - because as of now, the Artificer is a class without a role moreso now than ever before. Like...the Infusions all seem to pin the Artificer as a Supporter, but less effective in terms of genuine healing or buffing, but then...an Extra Attack? If you're looking to play a tinkerer that feels like a tinkerer, I don't think UA has managed to outdo their previous work here. It's not perfect, but Gunsmiths are shooting guns and Alchemists are lobbing potions, so at least that had the basics down.
Since this topic got a quite large at its current 23 pages, a question I'd like to ask might've popped up. If so, excuse me, but I have to ask:
Is the Superior Attunement feature gone on purpose? In previous iterations of 5e Artificer, the class had a feature that allowed it to attune to 4, and later 5 magical items quite a few levels before getting the 20th level's Soul of Artifice which - among other things - capped the attunement at 6 items.
Current version seems to keep the Artificer at the baseline 3 items for 19 levels, and then slams it with Soul of Artifice, bringing it up to 6.
I wonder if that could be an indication of item-centric subclass for Artificer that'd hog the Superior Attunement feature for itself.
Thank you in advance.
On the Dragon+ interview Crawford said it was mostly due to feedback on the 2017 survey from DM centric viewpoint that more attunements is hard to balance at the table, which does make sense but I think manageable by DMs.
But worse for me is that now the level 18 and level 20 features are very “out of the blue” which makes them impossible to include in your Artificer’s mid gameplay lore just “oops I can do this now”.
That is basically going to be my feedback going into the survey and recommend that Superior attunement returns from level 10 on and Spell Storing comes back in some early level scaling format, ideally within the Infusion list and not on a delayed spell progression.
If you want a feedback roundup post there is one on page 20. (Biased as I wrote it but it was the only one for 10+ pages)
As a counterpoint, nothing has felt like the 3.5/4e ancestors of the artificer to me until this round.
This is a solid support class that really feels built to change how the party approaches problems. I don't play an artificer to shoot things with big guns, I do it to be the guy who sent the party into a fight against a magical tree with a bunch of flaming weapons.
When comparing 2017 and 2019 Artificer the most evident thing is they tried to reduce complexity.
The 2017 core was alright with the biggest issue in Wonderous Item which I think everyone agrees they vastly improved that with Infuse Items. Cantrips are okay but I think took up too much design space But the loss of Spell storing and Superior attunements I think was mistakes and should be brought back to core.
The 2017 subclasses on the other hand while filling the good themes were in my opinion written more like bad homebrews. While it delivered a good Gunslinger Nothing should scale every 2 levels! Also since they pulled guns to DM optional they had to refocus the Gunsmith class which is a good change.
WIthout a list of potions the Alchemist suffers but hopefully they release that with the extended spell list. (Some of which should be unique Artificer spells similar to Ranger and Paladin)
And I think we are wrong comparing Gunsmith to Artillerist, I think there is design space (and time before release) to add one more subclass for Wandslinger which would be heavy damage focused and could be reskinned to use guns.
I want to make a Dwarven Alchemist that uses a brewery kit for his magic and brews ales for various magical spells and his homonculus is an ale-emental.
@Grizzlebub Haha definitely put that in back burner for any half comedic one shots I do, or maybe an NPC in the Terry Pratchet like city I plan. Awesome!
As far as Attunement, I have played with the character's number of items based on their current proficiency bonus or perhaps based on their Intelligence bonus (minimum of 3 no matter what)
Both of these would allow attunement to scale and I think would work well with the artificer, though I like basing it on proficiency best and think it would scale over time easier
The problem with basing it off of proficiency bonus is that non-artificer levels will apply to it. If I had to choose between those two it would be basing it off of intelligence modifier, minimum 3.
I think my favourite is just to give it to them as their level 10 feature with 5 at 15 and 6 at 20.
Ir would be kind of weird with either of the Proficiency or Int Mod to choose when to give the feat, eg When giving the Int Mod feature some would already have +5 hence no scaling, and for proficiency there is no point in giving before 8th level and if it is 10th level then you quickly go to 5 attuned at level 13.
My thought was to tie it into an existing mechanic that scales, either the class base attribute (Int) or one that scales with level (Poficiency)
Neither is perfect or optimal, just thoughts I wanted to throw out that use existing mechanisms. Adding it at 10th level and bumping it works as well too and would probably be easier to implement in all honesty
I just think it is a core to this class that works better earlier in the class progression than to put in at the very end as the capstone
And, in addition, you could limit the extra available attunements to items created by the artificer, so they could have 3 "normal" attuned items and the rest have to be items created by the artificer.
This would keep the flavor of the character and limit the potential for over power from items that could occur with the additional attunements available
While what we have with this version of the Artificer which is specifically for Eberron campaigns, the next UA should hopefully contain subclasses more suited to the Forgotten Realms or other campaign worlds such as Greyhawk, Planescape or Darksun. If they do not have a gunsmith type subclass they may very well be in a Spelljammer supplement as they are hinting at that coming out such as the Spelljamming shipwreck and the Spelljamming helm in Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and while Ghosts of Saltmarsh is not a spelljamming adventure it will contain rules for things that players can do on a ship to keep it working well.
So, I've seen some concerns about the Artificer turret using up a main action to little benefit.
One other piece that's kind of bothered me is how most of the subclass is dedicated to this turret, but the 6th level ability isn't related to it at all. This is my attempt to solve both.
Remove: Wand Prototype
Add: Overcharge
At 6th level, you can provide a burst of magic to overcharge the turret. As a bonus action, you reach out and touch a turret within 5 feet. It immediately activates, doing the regular effect and adding your artificer level to the damage roll.
Overcharging a turret a second time will cause it to immediately detonate without activating.
Add: Improved Overcharge
At 14th level, when you overcharge a turret, you can activate a second turret normally as part of the same action.
I’ve been struggling a little to think of what kind of spells to give uniquely to Artificer. Ranger and Paladin half casters lean heavily on their high power unique spells like Lightning Arrow, Conjure Volley, Auras and Smite spells.
The only cool ideas I could think of it Enchantments, Wards, and Potion like spells.
Enchantments: Heavy support spells like the Arcane Weapon spell, which could duplicate Spells like Hex, Haste, Spiritual Weapon even Siprit Guardians or minor Summons. Which I think should use the concentration of the activator but limited by the Half Caster spell slots of the Artificer. (Plus other unique spells that fit the enchantment style)
Wards: I can only think of Alarm and Evil Eye type clone spells that fit this category, but also thinking of DOTA/LOL wards. Maybe a destealthing ward, camouflage ward and counterspell ward would be interesting.
Potions: Fill out any mechanical niches left by lack of thrown potions like bombs, elemental AoEs or AoE heals. This category would have the few offensive options of the class. (But I would prefer being replaced by a potion crafting list)
Anyone want to flesh out more ideas in those categories or have more interesting ideas?
Spells like Green-flame blade, Booking blade, Conjuration spells (think like a technomage from Babylon 5), Transmutation spells. All these fit Artificer's in my opinion with a bit of re-flavoring.
Image using the 3rd level wizard spell Summon Lesser Demons to summon up holographic (Illusionary?) demons. :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Spells like Green-flame blade, Booking blade, Conjuration spells (think like a technomage from Babylon 5), Transmutation spells. All these fit Artificer's in my opinion with a bit of re-flavoring.
Image using the 3rd level wizard spell Summon Lesser Demons to summon up holographic (Illusionary?) demons. :)
GFB and BB are fantastic ideas as they are usually locked to the caster.
I was thinking Wards as super short term summons almost like traps could be very interesting.
I am trying somewhat to stay away from reskins of current spells or more spells in current categories so that they fit a completely new niche. For example have a mostly martial party travelling with an Artificer, now they each have something to concentrate on, giving buffs to the party damage not only your own.
Someone way back mentioned that the Artificer in earlier editions had a spell that dealt heavy damage to constructs, so an idea I had for a spell unique to Artificers could be something like this:
"Deconstruction: You select a constructed or fabricated Medium or smaller object in a 5-foot cube and cause it to revert into its raw materials. If used on a construct, the target makes a constitution saving throw and takes 4d8 damage on a failure or half as much on a success."
The exact numbers would need tweaking, but as for the idea, what do you think?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Honestly, I think this update overall just sort of betrays the fact that...the creators don't seem especially sure what Artificers are meant to BE.
Now, I can't speak for everybody, but as a fan of the version prior to this update, I made an Artificer of each of the available subclasses, and had fun with them both. There's already been no shortage of talk about the Gunsmith largely hitting closer to what players seem to want than the odd turret situation the new alternative offers up - as the Gunsmith, while imperfect balancing-wise, both provides an accepted version of the classic 'Gunslinger' while playing to one of the predominant images of an Artificer-type character: a guy with one main gadget they're constantly tweaking and updating, scaling up in power and uses. With this, I played as a Warforged Gunsmith who'd built his Thunder Cannon as a magical sixgun, his mechanical deadeye giving him deadly aim as he fights a highly ineffective one-man-war on the organic life that built him to serve as a cleaning drone - even having his mechanical servant be a roomba-type thing he dubs a 'Doomba' with the stats of a Giant Spider, modifying it with legs as he tries to indoctrinate it into 'the metal revolution'. Some tweaks on the particular mechanics and scaling of that Thunder Cannon would help, but the tech-savvy gunslinger archetype it lends itself to is something seperate from, say, archers or spellcasters. It feels like it's own thing.
Then there's Alchemist, which I feel got even worse served - as I think it's a fairly predominant thought that when thinking of an Alchemist class in a fantasy game, what comes to mind is someone constantly brewing up potions to chuck to heal allies, debuff enemies, and use as bombs. This is what the old Alchemist appealed to - a manic inventor tossing out bottles of lord-knows-what with plenty of options from smoke-bombs to terrain-changers. Paired with a mechanical servant built designed after a winged creature, I had loads of fun making having an aerial bomber dropping potions from above, or chucking down bombs while standing on their flying mechanical aid Green Goblin style as it soared overhead. Meanwhile, this new Alchemist, just...doesn't focus on potions. The crux of an Alchemist. Rather, it prioritizes a Homunculus, which has all the problems of a mechanical servant feeling 'tacked on', yet without the advantage of some variety and customization to make the creature what you'd like it to be, instead stuck as a tiny pest that's effectively just a poison-spewing familiar. The Crafting Rules simply don't allow for the supposed potioneers to get POTIONS without more time and wealth than many campaigns offer up, and leaves the Alchemist just feeling like a worse echo of any other healer or debuff-focused spellcaster. It's an Alchemist...without potions. What the class needed was a hard buff, honestly - toss in some new features, up the variety, not down. The Infusions just don't offer enough to really make either subclass feel like itself.
Honestly, I'll be sticking to the prior version - as while its not the most powerful option mechanically, it at least feels like an Artificer, through-and-through. I'd say sticking with the original outline of it and making tweaks and additions would be the best way to move going forward - because as of now, the Artificer is a class without a role moreso now than ever before. Like...the Infusions all seem to pin the Artificer as a Supporter, but less effective in terms of genuine healing or buffing, but then...an Extra Attack? If you're looking to play a tinkerer that feels like a tinkerer, I don't think UA has managed to outdo their previous work here. It's not perfect, but Gunsmiths are shooting guns and Alchemists are lobbing potions, so at least that had the basics down.
On the Dragon+ interview Crawford said it was mostly due to feedback on the 2017 survey from DM centric viewpoint that more attunements is hard to balance at the table, which does make sense but I think manageable by DMs.
But worse for me is that now the level 18 and level 20 features are very “out of the blue” which makes them impossible to include in your Artificer’s mid gameplay lore just “oops I can do this now”.
That is basically going to be my feedback going into the survey and recommend that Superior attunement returns from level 10 on and Spell Storing comes back in some early level scaling format, ideally within the Infusion list and not on a delayed spell progression.
If you want a feedback roundup post there is one on page 20. (Biased as I wrote it but it was the only one for 10+ pages)
@soupervylan
As a counterpoint, nothing has felt like the 3.5/4e ancestors of the artificer to me until this round.
This is a solid support class that really feels built to change how the party approaches problems. I don't play an artificer to shoot things with big guns, I do it to be the guy who sent the party into a fight against a magical tree with a bunch of flaming weapons.
@soupervylan
When comparing 2017 and 2019 Artificer the most evident thing is they tried to reduce complexity.
The 2017 core was alright with the biggest issue in Wonderous Item which I think everyone agrees they vastly improved that with Infuse Items. Cantrips are okay but I think took up too much design space But the loss of Spell storing and Superior attunements I think was mistakes and should be brought back to core.
The 2017 subclasses on the other hand while filling the good themes were in my opinion written more like bad homebrews. While it delivered a good Gunslinger Nothing should scale every 2 levels! Also since they pulled guns to DM optional they had to refocus the Gunsmith class which is a good change.
WIthout a list of potions the Alchemist suffers but hopefully they release that with the extended spell list. (Some of which should be unique Artificer spells similar to Ranger and Paladin)
And I think we are wrong comparing Gunsmith to Artillerist, I think there is design space (and time before release) to add one more subclass for Wandslinger which would be heavy damage focused and could be reskinned to use guns.
I want to make a Dwarven Alchemist that uses a brewery kit for his magic and brews ales for various magical spells and his homonculus is an ale-emental.
You win an Internet, Grizzlebub.
@Grizzlebub Haha definitely put that in back burner for any half comedic one shots I do, or maybe an NPC in the Terry Pratchet like city I plan. Awesome!
As far as Attunement, I have played with the character's number of items based on their current proficiency bonus or perhaps based on their Intelligence bonus (minimum of 3 no matter what)
Both of these would allow attunement to scale and I think would work well with the artificer, though I like basing it on proficiency best and think it would scale over time easier
Just some thoughts from the field
The problem with basing it off of proficiency bonus is that non-artificer levels will apply to it. If I had to choose between those two it would be basing it off of intelligence modifier, minimum 3.
I think my favourite is just to give it to them as their level 10 feature with 5 at 15 and 6 at 20.
Ir would be kind of weird with either of the Proficiency or Int Mod to choose when to give the feat, eg When giving the Int Mod feature some would already have +5 hence no scaling, and for proficiency there is no point in giving before 8th level and if it is 10th level then you quickly go to 5 attuned at level 13.
I understand both concerns
My thought was to tie it into an existing mechanic that scales, either the class base attribute (Int) or one that scales with level (Poficiency)
Neither is perfect or optimal, just thoughts I wanted to throw out that use existing mechanisms. Adding it at 10th level and bumping it works as well too and would probably be easier to implement in all honesty
I just think it is a core to this class that works better earlier in the class progression than to put in at the very end as the capstone
I agree with having the additional attunements sooner and having something a bit less boring for a capstone ability.
Totally agree, players rarely get to play level 20. An extra slot at 10/15/20 doesn’t seem OP
And, in addition, you could limit the extra available attunements to items created by the artificer, so they could have 3 "normal" attuned items and the rest have to be items created by the artificer.
This would keep the flavor of the character and limit the potential for over power from items that could occur with the additional attunements available
While what we have with this version of the Artificer which is specifically for Eberron campaigns, the next UA should hopefully contain subclasses more suited to the Forgotten Realms or other campaign worlds such as Greyhawk, Planescape or Darksun. If they do not have a gunsmith type subclass they may very well be in a Spelljammer supplement as they are hinting at that coming out such as the Spelljamming shipwreck and the Spelljamming helm in Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and while Ghosts of Saltmarsh is not a spelljamming adventure it will contain rules for things that players can do on a ship to keep it working well.
So, I've seen some concerns about the Artificer turret using up a main action to little benefit.
One other piece that's kind of bothered me is how most of the subclass is dedicated to this turret, but the 6th level ability isn't related to it at all. This is my attempt to solve both.
Remove: Wand Prototype
Add: Overcharge
At 6th level, you can provide a burst of magic to overcharge the turret. As a bonus action, you reach out and touch a turret within 5 feet. It immediately activates, doing the regular effect and adding your artificer level to the damage roll.
Overcharging a turret a second time will cause it to immediately detonate without activating.
Add: Improved Overcharge
At 14th level, when you overcharge a turret, you can activate a second turret normally as part of the same action.
~~Quaza
I’ve been struggling a little to think of what kind of spells to give uniquely to Artificer. Ranger and Paladin half casters lean heavily on their high power unique spells like Lightning Arrow, Conjure Volley, Auras and Smite spells.
The only cool ideas I could think of it Enchantments, Wards, and Potion like spells.
Enchantments: Heavy support spells like the Arcane Weapon spell, which could duplicate Spells like Hex, Haste, Spiritual Weapon even Siprit Guardians or minor Summons. Which I think should use the concentration of the activator but limited by the Half Caster spell slots of the Artificer. (Plus other unique spells that fit the enchantment style)
Wards: I can only think of Alarm and Evil Eye type clone spells that fit this category, but also thinking of DOTA/LOL wards. Maybe a destealthing ward, camouflage ward and counterspell ward would be interesting.
Potions: Fill out any mechanical niches left by lack of thrown potions like bombs, elemental AoEs or AoE heals. This category would have the few offensive options of the class. (But I would prefer being replaced by a potion crafting list)
Anyone want to flesh out more ideas in those categories or have more interesting ideas?
Spells like Green-flame blade, Booking blade, Conjuration spells (think like a technomage from Babylon 5), Transmutation spells. All these fit Artificer's in my opinion with a bit of re-flavoring.
Image using the 3rd level wizard spell Summon Lesser Demons to summon up holographic (Illusionary?) demons. :)
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
GFB and BB are fantastic ideas as they are usually locked to the caster.
I was thinking Wards as super short term summons almost like traps could be very interesting.
I am trying somewhat to stay away from reskins of current spells or more spells in current categories so that they fit a completely new niche. For example have a mostly martial party travelling with an Artificer, now they each have something to concentrate on, giving buffs to the party damage not only your own.
Someone way back mentioned that the Artificer in earlier editions had a spell that dealt heavy damage to constructs, so an idea I had for a spell unique to Artificers could be something like this:
"Deconstruction: You select a constructed or fabricated Medium or smaller object in a 5-foot cube and cause it to revert into its raw materials. If used on a construct, the target makes a constitution saving throw and takes 4d8 damage on a failure or half as much on a success."
The exact numbers would need tweaking, but as for the idea, what do you think?