At my table, I treat the Echo Knight's echo as immaterial (illusory) except for the instant an attack is wielded through it with effective duration of "instantaneous." This means it could shove, but not grapple. If you start down the path of allowing the Echo to have material aspects you open a giant pandora's box of potential for breaking the game and dozens, if not hundreds, of debatable rulings about what it can and can't do.
For me, the way to fix the echo is to make it not an object until the instant the attack happens, and then not again. Other things and creatures simply can't interact with it.
If an echo were material (object) it could be used like an immovable rod, it could carry things as it flies and block people's paths and so on. That just doesn't seem to be the intent of the feature as a "magical, translucent, gray image." Rather, it seems the idea is the character's influence can either be in one place or the other, not both. Where the creators went wrong was to call the echo an object, which is manifestly self-contradictory and led to the snowball of confusion.
How to get rid of the echo?
Clearly the creators intended for enemies to be able to remove the echo. To destroy the echo, we can declare that you simply must interrupt or pass through the image, which requires an action with sufficient skill that the echo can't avoid it, which amounts to a successful attack roll. Thus, a successful attack that would pass material or elemental energy through the echo causes it to disappear. So fire bolt works (flame passes through the image and fire bolt can target objects), but not toll the dead (there is no creature to target or living matter to take necrotic damage). Likewise spells which can only target a creature don't work. A crossbow bolt works, as does moving water into the space using the cantrip shape water, or even thrusting a mage hand at it. Likewise, mind sliver won't work--there is no mind to mess to with. Any successful shove, grapple, unarmed or armed strike or ranged weapon attack also works. Any attack for which a dex save takes half damage also works (since it is not completely avoidable).
What am I missing? It seems like this interpretation preserves all of the intent and avoids all the potential for abuse and confusion. Surely, I must be missing something though, players are clever after all.
This is a good point. But with the physicality that comes with battlefield control comes everything else that the echo knight forums bring up as problems and lead to a whole bunch of US Federal Code-level stipulations on what it can and can't do. For me, I can't handle the arguing and confusion and nonsense. It's immaterial. It doesn't fill its space. If I open Pandora's box to let in blocking, then I don't know where to stop. Just a house rule that works for me. It's not like echo knights are lacking for utility....
At my table, I treat the Echo Knight's echo as immaterial (illusory) except for the instant an attack is wielded through it with effective duration of "instantaneous." This means it could shove, but not grapple. If you start down the path of allowing the Echo to have material aspects you open a giant pandora's box of potential for breaking the game and dozens, if not hundreds, of debatable rulings about what it can and can't do.
For me, the way to fix the echo is to make it not an object until the instant the attack happens, and then not again. Other things and creatures simply can't interact with it.
If an echo were material (object) it could be used like an immovable rod, it could carry things as it flies and block people's paths and so on. That just doesn't seem to be the intent of the feature as a "magical, translucent, gray image." Rather, it seems the idea is the character's influence can either be in one place or the other, not both. Where the creators went wrong was to call the echo an object, which is manifestly self-contradictory and led to the snowball of confusion.
How to get rid of the echo?
Clearly the creators intended for enemies to be able to remove the echo. To destroy the echo, we can declare that you simply must interrupt or pass through the image, which requires an action with sufficient skill that the echo can't avoid it, which amounts to a successful attack roll. Thus, a successful attack that would pass material or elemental energy through the echo causes it to disappear. So fire bolt works (flame passes through the image and fire bolt can target objects), but not toll the dead (there is no creature to target or living matter to take necrotic damage). Likewise spells which can only target a creature don't work. A crossbow bolt works, as does moving water into the space using the cantrip shape water, or even thrusting a mage hand at it. Likewise, mind sliver won't work--there is no mind to mess to with. Any successful shove, grapple, unarmed or armed strike or ranged weapon attack also works. Any attack for which a dex save takes half damage also works (since it is not completely avoidable).
What am I missing? It seems like this interpretation preserves all of the intent and avoids all the potential for abuse and confusion. Surely, I must be missing something though, players are clever after all.
This is an interesting idea. I wish the devs had looked it over some more before allowing it to go to print.
None of this is needed. Just have the echo be an incorporeal object that *does not fill its space* and all these problems go away.
If the Echo does not fill its space, though, then it cannot block any pathway. Its utility for control of the field becomes a lot more limited.
This is a good point. But with the physicality that comes with battlefield control comes everything else that the echo knight forums bring up as problems and lead to a whole bunch of US Federal Code-level stipulations on what it can and can't do. For me, I can't handle the arguing and confusion and nonsense. It's immaterial. It doesn't fill its space. If I open Pandora's box to let in blocking, then I don't know where to stop. Just a house rule that works for me. It's not like echo knights are lacking for utility....