I've been playing a long time (1982) and have seen the game through many changes... I thought Spelljammer was interesting, Planescape was very fun and DnD Modern had potential. Gurps, Palladium, Gamma World and Middle-Earth helped me explore new RPG's, but I always came back to D&D. My love of fantasy goes back to my first exposer, which was reading The Hobbit and Conan the Barbarian stories. While I do enjoy all the new characters and sub classes, I get lost sometimes with all the magic options that permeate each class. Runeknight and Gloomstalker are my favorites, along with Hexblade. But with all of these great and fun character classes and gaming moments, I miss a more grittier feel. I would love to see Wizards put out a book that revamps the classes to all non-magic abilities and options, leaving the mage/druid/cleric as the sole casters. Perhaps a book for low magic campaigns that revamps the spell lists and gives a more mundane treasure/magic table. Remember when a +1 sword was something you yearned for?
I know that you could say "just do it yourself, there are rules here, here and here for it". I've worked here and there on this, but I would love to see what input you have. What perspective you come from. How balanced are your new classes with each other.
Generally, I would do this by simply dispermitting magical subclasses for anything but the straight casters, barring access to a couple of the hybrid classes, and otherwise putting chargen restrictions in place alongside telling my players "this is going to be a grittier, low fantasy game where magic is scarce and often suspicious Not only will you have a lot less of it, but the populace in general will be distrustful of magic users and open use of magic will very possibly get you in trouble."
If your players are on board - and they should be, if you've talked to them about this and gotten their buy-in for a low magic game - they'll take the options that fit with a low magic game for you, with one or two players interested in doing the secretive spellcaster. Or maybe everybody wants the 'Secretive Spellcaster' thing and you've got a partyful of heretical mages, which could be a lot of fun to run a 'low magic' game for.
Fighter, rogue, and barbarian all have easy null-magic options. The ranger has innate casting, but it tends to be minor enough that rather than try to rip out their spellcasting I'd simply allow them to keep their primal magics under the same rules as the other casters - the people of the realm fear and distrust spellslingers, and if it becomes known you're a weaver of the black arts you'll have trouble. Warlock gets to stay because of course there are beings beyond mortal ken willing to offer mortals a mote of power in exchange for services, but you'd best believe a warlock's patron is not going to be the Nice Guy Sort in such a game. Cleric, however, might not get to stay. or if they do, the existence of a cleric graced with divine power would be incredibly rare, the sort of thing they sing tales of. If the people know a worker of miracles exists among their number, they could mob that cleric begging/demanding that the gods' graces be granted their homes, their harvests, and everything else...and when the cleric can provide little more than a few minor gifts of healing, that could go poorly for them.
Heh...one of my other favorite rules for a gritty Low Magic sort of game is that level 5 is the highest level you can obtain through experience alone. No levels past 5 are a given, extra power must come from a catalyst found in the world. A reward from a fey lord, a consequence of stopping the half-done magical ritual of the ancient lich-thing, perhaps even a curse from killing a powerful spirit of the woods. Each level past fifth sets the characters further apart from the ordinary folks around them; as they gain strength they gradually lose their connections to humanity and their homes. The stronger they get, the less a part of the world of their birth they are. If the party manages to obtain high level in such a game, breaking into tier 3? They're not even really human anymore, becoming more like the demi-mortals of myth and story. The players have to decide whether obtaining power is worth losing that connection, and if they opt in, they have to deal with the consequences.
Generally, I would do this by simply dispermitting magical subclasses for anything but the straight casters, barring access to a couple of the hybrid classes, and otherwise putting chargen restrictions in place alongside telling my players "this is going to be a grittier, low fantasy game where magic is scarce and often suspicious Not only will you have a lot less of it, but the populace in general will be distrustful of magic users and open use of magic will very possibly get you in trouble."
I would take the opposite approach, completely removing the straight classes so the only casters are the ones that mix casting with martial skill.
The magic item part is the easiest, just don’t put them in. The math in this edition doesn’t assume magic items, so the characters will still hit as often. They’ll run into trouble when creatures have resistance to non-magic damage, but that’s part of the plan in a low magic world, I’d guess.
And as yurei said, just ban the magical subclasses. There’s still plenty of options.
Another possibility could be the alternate rule about a long rest taking a week, that tends to make casters think hard about using a leveled spell, and can dial down the magic level.
Yeah, if you just drop Paladin, Artificer, Ranger, and either Warlock or Sorcerer as well as ban all of the magic subclasses for Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, and Monks, and then restrict the availability magic items down it’ll be pretty much a 1e style game. You would also have to restrict a good number of the racial options too, but that’s just as doable. In fact, if you look in chapter 1 of the the DMG there’s even a section for how to run a low-fantasy game at your table:
I get the idea of banning sub-classes... lowering available magic in treasure. What I'm talking about is fine tuning existing core classes to make them low/no magic. Take the Ranger. At 2nd level they get spell casting. Now I can take that out of the ranger class and progress normally, but the spellcasting increases per level, and makes the class competitive with other classes. If you remove it, what could you replace it with that would fill out the class and keep it relative to other classes. Primal awareness is another trait to remove, but at what cost to the class?
A Paladin is not a Paladin without many of its features, which are magical in nature. Banning all magic and not replacing it with grounded abilities will unbalance characters. I'm still looking for balance, therefore I seek opinions.
Perhaps instead of just a ranger/fighter/barbarian/paladin etc... there is soldier/archer/scout/knight/barbarian/cavalier, all sub-classes of fighter. Rogue could have a similar breakdown. Mage could be sage/druid/cleric/witch. Have the magic be low and sparce but give the classes more to work with in other aspects. I'm not trying to just ban stuff and play, but negate some things while maintaining a balance.
I get it. There are other games out there to fill the need... but I love D&D. I just wanted more options that go the other end of the spectrum on the magic scale.
I think you would need to ban monk in such a game or completely change the flavour of it. It is common to think of monks as a noon magic class bvecause they din't cast spells (unless form a subclass) but "Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki". While step of the wind might be mechanically the same 2 options of a rogues cunning action (which doesn't rely on anything magical) is does rely on tapping into magical energy. In a similar way is stunning strike magical, based on knowledge of knowing exactly where to hit (in which case why is the resource limited) or an attack with extra effort (which raises a queestion why do you not need to declare it beefore you attack and use up the resource hit or miss. Should monks have ki empowered strikes in a world where magical weapons are almost non-existant and so on down the line.
My (level 19) monk once went to a city where people were those who couldn't read were treated as an underclass, those who could read put a mark on their face to show it but were still ooked down on. Those who could read and write had two marks and the elite, who had three marks were those who could cast spells. I wasthe only member of the party with only two marks and was disregarded by the NPCs (with 3 marks) as the rest of the party were the only ones worth speaking to. In frustration I used empty body to turn invisible ran up the wall of a building and shouted down who needs to cast spells when you can harness ki to do similar effects. (It was agreed at that point that I should receive a thrid mark)
Removing all magic-based subclasses leaves the Barbarian stuck with only the Berserker and the Battlerager.
Depends on how you define magic based Beast and Storm Herlad could be classed as not magic based. If you are not going beyond level 9 Ancestral Guardians could also be allowed.
I’d even allow Ancestral Guardians in a low-magic setting because the spells are just a convenient mechanic for the Barbarian to ask the ancestors for information, and not really meant to represent “spellcasting” in the traditional sense. But storms would be out. And I already houseruled Berserker to not suck so it’s really not a bad option at all anymore. Of course, Battleraged is another story…. 🙄
Removing all magic-based subclasses leaves the Barbarian stuck with only the Berserker and the Battlerager.
Depends on how you define magic based Beast and Storm Herlad could be classed as not magic based. If you are not going beyond level 9 Ancestral Guardians could also be allowed.
Path of the Beast grants limited shapeshifting when you rage. I'm not sure how you could possibly define that as being nonmagical. Same for the Storm Herald's ability to deal elemental damage.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If monsters also lacked magical abilities that would make even lower level magic more powerful. Maybe it would be balanced to decrease the rate at which magic using classes gain new spell slots and spell levels?
A spiritual connection would be allowed. Just as, say, the Paladin and Devine Smite. Perhaps the Devine Smite is the Paladins faith coursing through them... their righteousness surges through them giving them greater strength to damage evil. Is it magic? No. We pull from ourselves in times of need and do great things. The barbarian gains a +2 to AC during rage. Not magical, but because they are full of adrenaline, moving so fast in battle, so focused, that they are harder to hit. Many abilities can be justified or tweaked to be grounded.
Ranger spells may be in the same vein. Pass without trace can easily be a special ability, not a spell. Speak with animals could become an empathetic reading of movement and gestures that glean information from years of experience.
That's what I'm looking for. Ideas on making the magical more grounded yet maintaining balance across the classes.
WOTC uses spells for all kinds of things that could easily be done as features or traits. Spells are convenient to use and have a built in metric of balance with the level system, but they could really have not used spells for lots of the stuff.
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I've been playing a long time (1982) and have seen the game through many changes... I thought Spelljammer was interesting, Planescape was very fun and DnD Modern had potential. Gurps, Palladium, Gamma World and Middle-Earth helped me explore new RPG's, but I always came back to D&D. My love of fantasy goes back to my first exposer, which was reading The Hobbit and Conan the Barbarian stories. While I do enjoy all the new characters and sub classes, I get lost sometimes with all the magic options that permeate each class. Runeknight and Gloomstalker are my favorites, along with Hexblade. But with all of these great and fun character classes and gaming moments, I miss a more grittier feel. I would love to see Wizards put out a book that revamps the classes to all non-magic abilities and options, leaving the mage/druid/cleric as the sole casters. Perhaps a book for low magic campaigns that revamps the spell lists and gives a more mundane treasure/magic table. Remember when a +1 sword was something you yearned for?
I know that you could say "just do it yourself, there are rules here, here and here for it". I've worked here and there on this, but I would love to see what input you have. What perspective you come from. How balanced are your new classes with each other.
And Wizards.... I bet this would be a great book!
Generally, I would do this by simply dispermitting magical subclasses for anything but the straight casters, barring access to a couple of the hybrid classes, and otherwise putting chargen restrictions in place alongside telling my players "this is going to be a grittier, low fantasy game where magic is scarce and often suspicious Not only will you have a lot less of it, but the populace in general will be distrustful of magic users and open use of magic will very possibly get you in trouble."
If your players are on board - and they should be, if you've talked to them about this and gotten their buy-in for a low magic game - they'll take the options that fit with a low magic game for you, with one or two players interested in doing the secretive spellcaster. Or maybe everybody wants the 'Secretive Spellcaster' thing and you've got a partyful of heretical mages, which could be a lot of fun to run a 'low magic' game for.
Fighter, rogue, and barbarian all have easy null-magic options. The ranger has innate casting, but it tends to be minor enough that rather than try to rip out their spellcasting I'd simply allow them to keep their primal magics under the same rules as the other casters - the people of the realm fear and distrust spellslingers, and if it becomes known you're a weaver of the black arts you'll have trouble. Warlock gets to stay because of course there are beings beyond mortal ken willing to offer mortals a mote of power in exchange for services, but you'd best believe a warlock's patron is not going to be the Nice Guy Sort in such a game. Cleric, however, might not get to stay. or if they do, the existence of a cleric graced with divine power would be incredibly rare, the sort of thing they sing tales of. If the people know a worker of miracles exists among their number, they could mob that cleric begging/demanding that the gods' graces be granted their homes, their harvests, and everything else...and when the cleric can provide little more than a few minor gifts of healing, that could go poorly for them.
Heh...one of my other favorite rules for a gritty Low Magic sort of game is that level 5 is the highest level you can obtain through experience alone. No levels past 5 are a given, extra power must come from a catalyst found in the world. A reward from a fey lord, a consequence of stopping the half-done magical ritual of the ancient lich-thing, perhaps even a curse from killing a powerful spirit of the woods. Each level past fifth sets the characters further apart from the ordinary folks around them; as they gain strength they gradually lose their connections to humanity and their homes. The stronger they get, the less a part of the world of their birth they are. If the party manages to obtain high level in such a game, breaking into tier 3? They're not even really human anymore, becoming more like the demi-mortals of myth and story. The players have to decide whether obtaining power is worth losing that connection, and if they opt in, they have to deal with the consequences.
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I would take the opposite approach, completely removing the straight classes so the only casters are the ones that mix casting with martial skill.
The magic item part is the easiest, just don’t put them in. The math in this edition doesn’t assume magic items, so the characters will still hit as often. They’ll run into trouble when creatures have resistance to non-magic damage, but that’s part of the plan in a low magic world, I’d guess.
And as yurei said, just ban the magical subclasses. There’s still plenty of options.
Another possibility could be the alternate rule about a long rest taking a week, that tends to make casters think hard about using a leveled spell, and can dial down the magic level.
Yeah, if you just drop Paladin, Artificer, Ranger, and either Warlock or Sorcerer as well as ban all of the magic subclasses for Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, and Monks, and then restrict the availability magic items down it’ll be pretty much a 1e style game. You would also have to restrict a good number of the racial options too, but that’s just as doable. In fact, if you look in chapter 1 of the the DMG there’s even a section for how to run a low-fantasy game at your table:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/a-world-of-your-own#MagicinYourWorld
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I get the idea of banning sub-classes... lowering available magic in treasure. What I'm talking about is fine tuning existing core classes to make them low/no magic. Take the Ranger. At 2nd level they get spell casting. Now I can take that out of the ranger class and progress normally, but the spellcasting increases per level, and makes the class competitive with other classes. If you remove it, what could you replace it with that would fill out the class and keep it relative to other classes. Primal awareness is another trait to remove, but at what cost to the class?
A Paladin is not a Paladin without many of its features, which are magical in nature. Banning all magic and not replacing it with grounded abilities will unbalance characters. I'm still looking for balance, therefore I seek opinions.
Perhaps instead of just a ranger/fighter/barbarian/paladin etc... there is soldier/archer/scout/knight/barbarian/cavalier, all sub-classes of fighter. Rogue could have a similar breakdown. Mage could be sage/druid/cleric/witch. Have the magic be low and sparce but give the classes more to work with in other aspects. I'm not trying to just ban stuff and play, but negate some things while maintaining a balance.
I get it. There are other games out there to fill the need... but I love D&D. I just wanted more options that go the other end of the spectrum on the magic scale.
WotC has already addressed some of your ideas:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes
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I think you would need to ban monk in such a game or completely change the flavour of it. It is common to think of monks as a noon magic class bvecause they din't cast spells (unless form a subclass) but "Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki". While step of the wind might be mechanically the same 2 options of a rogues cunning action (which doesn't rely on anything magical) is does rely on tapping into magical energy. In a similar way is stunning strike magical, based on knowledge of knowing exactly where to hit (in which case why is the resource limited) or an attack with extra effort (which raises a queestion why do you not need to declare it beefore you attack and use up the resource hit or miss. Should monks have ki empowered strikes in a world where magical weapons are almost non-existant and so on down the line.
My (level 19) monk once went to a city where people were those who couldn't read were treated as an underclass, those who could read put a mark on their face to show it but were still ooked down on. Those who could read and write had two marks and the elite, who had three marks were those who could cast spells. I wasthe only member of the party with only two marks and was disregarded by the NPCs (with 3 marks) as the rest of the party were the only ones worth speaking to. In frustration I used empty body to turn invisible ran up the wall of a building and shouted down who needs to cast spells when you can harness ki to do similar effects. (It was agreed at that point that I should receive a thrid mark)
Removing all magic-based subclasses leaves the Barbarian stuck with only the Berserker and the Battlerager.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Depends on how you define magic based Beast and Storm Herlad could be classed as not magic based. If you are not going beyond level 9 Ancestral Guardians could also be allowed.
I’d even allow Ancestral Guardians in a low-magic setting because the spells are just a convenient mechanic for the Barbarian to ask the ancestors for information, and not really meant to represent “spellcasting” in the traditional sense. But storms would be out. And I already houseruled Berserker to not suck so it’s really not a bad option at all anymore. Of course, Battleraged is another story…. 🙄
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Path of the Beast grants limited shapeshifting when you rage. I'm not sure how you could possibly define that as being nonmagical. Same for the Storm Herald's ability to deal elemental damage.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If monsters also lacked magical abilities that would make even lower level magic more powerful. Maybe it would be balanced to decrease the rate at which magic using classes gain new spell slots and spell levels?
If one defines “magical” as Spellcasting and/or spell-like effects you manifest, then totemic spirit magic might slide. 🤷♂️
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Would you let the player use the ability while inside an anti-magic field? Magic is not limited only to spellcasting.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
A spiritual connection would be allowed. Just as, say, the Paladin and Devine Smite. Perhaps the Devine Smite is the Paladins faith coursing through them... their righteousness surges through them giving them greater strength to damage evil. Is it magic? No. We pull from ourselves in times of need and do great things. The barbarian gains a +2 to AC during rage. Not magical, but because they are full of adrenaline, moving so fast in battle, so focused, that they are harder to hit. Many abilities can be justified or tweaked to be grounded.
Ranger spells may be in the same vein. Pass without trace can easily be a special ability, not a spell. Speak with animals could become an empathetic reading of movement and gestures that glean information from years of experience.
That's what I'm looking for. Ideas on making the magical more grounded yet maintaining balance across the classes.
WOTC uses spells for all kinds of things that could easily be done as features or traits. Spells are convenient to use and have a built in metric of balance with the level system, but they could really have not used spells for lots of the stuff.