One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
It would be like them saying "la-lala-la-la we don't want to hear people being unhappy about what we want to do with our license so since we are making loads of money from 5e anyway [for now] we want to avoid people not knowing of this thing finding these posts and change their mind on buying our products", which would be a spectacular bad decision and would have the exact oppostie effect.
So, no, I don't believe they would be this bad at reading the situation.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
It would be like them saying "la-lala-la-la we don't want to hear people being unhappy about what we want to do with our license so since we are making loads of money from 5e anyway [for now] we want to avoid people not knowing of this thing finding these posts and change their mind on buying our products", which would be a spectacular bad decision and would have the exact oppostie effect.
So, no, I don't believe they would be this bad at reading the situation.
I mean apparently they were once before so I wouldn't put it past them that said the seem to have a new and much more competent pr team now so who knows.
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If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
It would be like them saying "la-lala-la-la we don't want to hear people being unhappy about what we want to do with our license so since we are making loads of money from 5e anyway [for now] we want to avoid people not knowing of this thing finding these posts and change their mind on buying our products", which would be a spectacular bad decision and would have the exact oppostie effect.
So, no, I don't believe they would be this bad at reading the situation.
I mean apparently they were once before so I wouldn't put it past them that said the seem to have a new and much more competent pr team now so who knows.
Trrue, but if I am not wrong last time was a discussion that came from a very poorly received edition, so something "wrong" with the game itself, 4ed was already "lost".
In this case is a problem with something they are doing outside of the game (even though it affects the game), and since I believe they are still making quite a few bucks out of 5ed, they might think twice before doing that again.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I would love to see them try. Do you know how much of a backlash they will get for pulling this OGL move and then silencing people on the forum? It would be covered on every news site out there. Honestly i don't think they would ever shut this forum down with how much negative press they are already receiving.
It would be like them saying "la-lala-la-la we don't want to hear people being unhappy about what we want to do with our license so since we are making loads of money from 5e anyway [for now] we want to avoid people not knowing of this thing finding these posts and change their mind on buying our products", which would be a spectacular bad decision and would have the exact oppostie effect.
So, no, I don't believe they would be this bad at reading the situation.
The reason all this is happening is because they didn't understand the situation with the OGL. Apparently they just expected to de-authorize OGL 1.0, destroying a business model that's worked for an entire industry for two decades. They they expected all their 3rd party creators to look at OGL 1.1 and say "Yeah, no problem", comply with the terms, and give WOTC their hard-earned money, along with the rights to everything they created going forward.
These aren't people who excel at "reading the room."
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
I think you'll be ok, I mean, did you really join D&D Beyond just two days ago so you could join the "conflict?"
Little, if any, of the press generated by this controversy has cited discussions of D&D Beyond's Forum or even its much more active Discord. If anything DDB's forum is likely useful to WotC in that it can be used as a barometer or cliff notes to how the brands being reported and commented on elsewhere are being received by what it can class as its fanbase. Notice when WotC directly engages its critics during the OGL flap, while it does usually post that engagement on DDB's main page, they don't announce those engagements here. They do announce those engagements through a number of other social media channels.
The 4e flap took place when the community eco-system of D&D, like many online communities, wasn't nearly as big as it today, nor as widely distributed over a number of media platforms. How many D&D YouTubers, who get 1000s of times more views than any forum post here, existed then compared to now?
The D&D Beyond subscriber drop is alleged to be the one thing that brought WotC into something close to a discussion with the D&D community. That movement wasn't started or organized here (fact: very few members of D&D Beyond have ever been active on this forum).
D&D Beyond may change its community engagement platform as One D&D becomes whatever they'll officially call the next iteration of D&D. That's frankly to be expected. I imagine most users under 40 probably see these forums as antiquated in functionality and purpose, again see Discord v Forum usage knowns. But to pretend WotC is going to "shut down the forums" either out of raw spite or at some effort of brand message control, that's some Chicken Little level nonsense. It wouldn't accomplish anything and despite the folks registering new accounts to create vanity takes on the demise of D&D or whatever, there's still a lot of activity on this forum that's got nothing to do with the OGL flap. There's more to the board than the General Discussion section.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It would be like them saying "la-lala-la-la we don't want to hear people being unhappy about what we want to do with our license so since we are making loads of money from 5e anyway [for now] we want to avoid people not knowing of this thing finding these posts and change their mind on buying our products", which would be a spectacular bad decision and would have the exact oppostie effect.
So, no, I don't believe they would be this bad at reading the situation.
The reason all this is happening is because they didn't understand the situation with the OGL. Apparently they just expected to de-authorize OGL 1.0, destroying a business model that's worked for an entire industry for two decades. They they expected all their 3rd party creators to look at OGL 1.1 and say "Yeah, no problem", comply with the terms, and give WOTC their hard-earned money, along with the rights to everything they created going forward.
These aren't people who excel at "reading the room."
I have to admit you have a point there, I might still be too optimistic, even though I am disgusted by this whole situation...
It might still be lingering hope... DDB has been in the hands of WotC for almost a year now (and to be honest, it shows), but I believe there are still extremely good people working on this site, that will do what they can to keep the forums alive.
Unsolicited reminder (not aimed to anyone in particular): even if there is turmoil and the temperature is rising, don't go harrass working people connected to DDB or WotC, they have even less blame than us in all this, the suits are the one to blame for this s**tshow.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
I don’t think that they have given us any reason to believe this, heck, they aren’t even deleting threads like these which has to say something.
Over the past couple of days, especially since the release of 1.2 and the open comment period, there has been a major tonal shift in how people post. Sure, there are still plenty of people who are angry and ranting, but the number of posts saying things like "Okay, this is a great start--and enough to get me to come back to the bargaining table and provide my feedback" or "You know, I could live with this version as written--there's a few changes I will suggest, but this could do it for me" are increasing each day.
And we have seen a lot of posts where certain users have begun to say the quiet part out loud and show they never truly cared about third party publishers. After all, almost all of the third party publisher's issues have been addressed (guarantees that 1.0 contracts will remain in place; removal of license back provisions; removal of royalties; removal of reporting their sales to Wizards provisions, the massive new boon of being able to put Wizards' trademark on your products, etc.)--and since they can no longer hide behind the smokescreen of "we are pretending to care about what third parties care about" they have gone on to attacking Paragraph 6(f). Now, it should be noted, there are legitimate reasons to question Paragraph 6(f)--I myself have written concerns about it both on the forums and in my survey response. But it is pretty clear based on tone and diction when you read a person with legitimate concerns and when you see a person who has less savory concerns. Though this is increasing the vitriol from the folks who feel they are backed into a corner and losing support, it actually seems to be calming down the forums as a whole--after all, most people do not like to be associated with intolerance, and so, those with legitimate concerns about 1.2 are generally voicing them in a more polite and respectful way, lest their motives be confused.
So, do I think they will shut down the forums? I highly doubt that. Not only would that be a PR nightmare, that would be a PR nightmare when these forums are giving Wizards the exact kind of forward momentum they want--and deserve based on the number of concessions they made to the community and the fact they have given the third party publishing community pretty much everything they want and more.
Given that forward momentum by both the community and by Wizards, this entire post feels like fearmongering. It almost is as if someone who made an alternate account to bash Wizards might be terrified that the rest of the community is realizing that victory is in hand, and is trying to again stoke up anger that is increasingly dwindling down to coals.
I do not see them ever closing the forums. They have been good about that. Some people who have got too heated may have lost access but I do not know that for sure. There are one or two threads I honestly thought should have got shut down over their titles but so far are still up.
In another matter there are not going to be any victories or victors in this dust up. The trust gained over 22 years is gone and will not be back anytime soon.
Lawsuits are going to occur and while Hasbro has deep pockets, they have been losing stock value like crazy in the last year and recent court decisions they have been in shows them they should never take anything for granted in a court of law.
I am also sure there are no smiles at WOTC either since they are caught in the middle and the field of companies they used to work with and competed against have now all joined together against them in defense. It is now a much more hostile environment than a mere month ago.
No one should be taking joy in any of this or be blaming anyone at Wizards of the Coast for it. They are as much a victim as the 3 party companies and the players for they are in the middle of a fight not started by the company that owns them, Hasbro.
I doubt the forums will be shutdown. For one thing, they actually attract more users and customers to the site. I always used physical books, but I came to DDB to discuss things and have now bought a decent amount of content here to use in the character builder. Not only do the forums entice people to use other parts of the site, but subforums such as the PBP one rarely allow physical character sheets, and this may cause people to spend money in order to be able to play the type of character they want there.
The forums make D&D Beyond better. They have places where community members provide free customer support for others so that the developers don't have to. Not only that, but we are a part of the game's community and Wizards of the Coast can look at us and at least know how some fans are reacting to changes to the game.
All in all, the forums may be a place with some debates and some necessary moderation, but they are more beneficial for D&D Beyond than not. At this point in time, we don't need any more unverified rumors about the game spreading. This is especially true considering the fact that Wizards of the Coast had "zero discussions" about getting rid of the forums when they first bought the site, according to an insider. It's been 8 months now, and there appears to be no sign of a change.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
And we have seen a lot of posts where certain users have begun to say the quiet part out loud and show they never truly cared about third party publishers. After all, almost all of the third party publisher's issues have been addressed (guarantees that 1.0 contracts will remain in place; removal of license back provisions; removal of royalties; removal of reporting their sales to Wizards provisions, the massive new boon of being able to put Wizards' trademark on your products, etc.)--and since they can no longer hide behind the smokescreen of "we are pretending to care about what third parties care about" they have gone on to attacking Paragraph 6(f). Now, it should be noted, there are legitimate reasons to question Paragraph 6(f)--I myself have written concerns about it both on the forums and in my survey response. But it is pretty clear based on tone and diction when you read a person with legitimate concerns and when you see a person who has less savory concerns. Though this is increasing the vitriol from the folks who feel they are backed into a corner and losing support, it actually seems to be calming down the forums as a whole--after all, most people do not like to be associated with intolerance, and so, those with legitimate concerns about 1.2 are generally voicing them in a more polite and respectful way, lest their motives be confused.
That's a gross misrepresentation. There's a huge amount of pushback on areas such as section 3 that covers how WotC gets to be safe from claims of theft from 3rd parties and of course the VTT policy. Even so, 6f is integral to 3PP since it is the primary mechanism that WotC will use to terminate the license for 3PPs.
The fire is as lit as ever. It's hilarious that you don't get why it's so quiet. Everyone got to say their piece with survey. So at least for the moment, people have gotten a lot off their chest and are settling down to await what WotC will do next. Props to the survey for that.
That's not to say that good ol' Kyle and 1.2 didn't appease some folk of course. How many remains to be seen, and you're free to take from that what solace you wish.
Can we please, please not start yet another baseless rumor?
They've already squeezed most of the outrage out of the old ones though
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
if they can move the delte my account link behind the "support ticket", they can very well delete this forum and leave you with a taste neutral Q&A or FAQ. and cut their loses
Yes, they "could" make the forum go away with the touch of button, as easy if not easier than someone joining D&D Beyond just prior to the end of 2022 to participate exclusively in OGL discussions. But as it's been mentioned on this thread a few times already, it wouldn't accomplish anything, and would delete the value added DDB gets from the community, not in a place to debate the "big ideas of D&D" but the practical customer service the community generates on its own re: the use of DDB tools and <gasp> the creation and implementation of homebrew within the tools.
One thing that is notable is that neither Wizards of the Coast or D&D has a forum. It used to have one and was shutdown after the outrage prompted by 4th edition which essentially resulted in the forums being a battle ground for D&D's identity back then.
Now fast forward a few years and DnDBeyond has become the new, official D&D forum and as was the case during the 4e days, its become a battle ground over D&D's identity.
Is this forum going to get shutdown to silence the community as was the case with the original, official forum?
That would be another shot in their own foot.
It would be like them saying "la-lala-la-la we don't want to hear people being unhappy about what we want to do with our license so since we are making loads of money from 5e anyway [for now] we want to avoid people not knowing of this thing finding these posts and change their mind on buying our products", which would be a spectacular bad decision and would have the exact oppostie effect.
So, no, I don't believe they would be this bad at reading the situation.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I mean apparently they were once before so I wouldn't put it past them that said the seem to have a new and much more competent pr team now so who knows.
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
Trrue, but if I am not wrong last time was a discussion that came from a very poorly received edition, so something "wrong" with the game itself, 4ed was already "lost".
In this case is a problem with something they are doing outside of the game (even though it affects the game), and since I believe they are still making quite a few bucks out of 5ed, they might think twice before doing that again.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I would love to see them try. Do you know how much of a backlash they will get for pulling this OGL move and then silencing people on the forum? It would be covered on every news site out there. Honestly i don't think they would ever shut this forum down with how much negative press they are already receiving.
The reason all this is happening is because they didn't understand the situation with the OGL. Apparently they just expected to de-authorize OGL 1.0, destroying a business model that's worked for an entire industry for two decades. They they expected all their 3rd party creators to look at OGL 1.1 and say "Yeah, no problem", comply with the terms, and give WOTC their hard-earned money, along with the rights to everything they created going forward.
These aren't people who excel at "reading the room."
Behind every successful Warlock, there's an angry mob.
I think you'll be ok, I mean, did you really join D&D Beyond just two days ago so you could join the "conflict?"
Little, if any, of the press generated by this controversy has cited discussions of D&D Beyond's Forum or even its much more active Discord. If anything DDB's forum is likely useful to WotC in that it can be used as a barometer or cliff notes to how the brands being reported and commented on elsewhere are being received by what it can class as its fanbase. Notice when WotC directly engages its critics during the OGL flap, while it does usually post that engagement on DDB's main page, they don't announce those engagements here. They do announce those engagements through a number of other social media channels.
The 4e flap took place when the community eco-system of D&D, like many online communities, wasn't nearly as big as it today, nor as widely distributed over a number of media platforms. How many D&D YouTubers, who get 1000s of times more views than any forum post here, existed then compared to now?
The D&D Beyond subscriber drop is alleged to be the one thing that brought WotC into something close to a discussion with the D&D community. That movement wasn't started or organized here (fact: very few members of D&D Beyond have ever been active on this forum).
D&D Beyond may change its community engagement platform as One D&D becomes whatever they'll officially call the next iteration of D&D. That's frankly to be expected. I imagine most users under 40 probably see these forums as antiquated in functionality and purpose, again see Discord v Forum usage knowns. But to pretend WotC is going to "shut down the forums" either out of raw spite or at some effort of brand message control, that's some Chicken Little level nonsense. It wouldn't accomplish anything and despite the folks registering new accounts to create vanity takes on the demise of D&D or whatever, there's still a lot of activity on this forum that's got nothing to do with the OGL flap. There's more to the board than the General Discussion section.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I have to admit you have a point there, I might still be too optimistic, even though I am disgusted by this whole situation...
It might still be lingering hope... DDB has been in the hands of WotC for almost a year now (and to be honest, it shows), but I believe there are still extremely good people working on this site, that will do what they can to keep the forums alive.
Unsolicited reminder (not aimed to anyone in particular): even if there is turmoil and the temperature is rising, don't go harrass working people connected to DDB or WotC, they have even less blame than us in all this, the suits are the one to blame for this s**tshow.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I don’t think that they have given us any reason to believe this, heck, they aren’t even deleting threads like these which has to say something.
I uses to be dndlover_2.
Can we please, please not start yet another baseless rumor?
Over the past couple of days, especially since the release of 1.2 and the open comment period, there has been a major tonal shift in how people post. Sure, there are still plenty of people who are angry and ranting, but the number of posts saying things like "Okay, this is a great start--and enough to get me to come back to the bargaining table and provide my feedback" or "You know, I could live with this version as written--there's a few changes I will suggest, but this could do it for me" are increasing each day.
And we have seen a lot of posts where certain users have begun to say the quiet part out loud and show they never truly cared about third party publishers. After all, almost all of the third party publisher's issues have been addressed (guarantees that 1.0 contracts will remain in place; removal of license back provisions; removal of royalties; removal of reporting their sales to Wizards provisions, the massive new boon of being able to put Wizards' trademark on your products, etc.)--and since they can no longer hide behind the smokescreen of "we are pretending to care about what third parties care about" they have gone on to attacking Paragraph 6(f). Now, it should be noted, there are legitimate reasons to question Paragraph 6(f)--I myself have written concerns about it both on the forums and in my survey response. But it is pretty clear based on tone and diction when you read a person with legitimate concerns and when you see a person who has less savory concerns. Though this is increasing the vitriol from the folks who feel they are backed into a corner and losing support, it actually seems to be calming down the forums as a whole--after all, most people do not like to be associated with intolerance, and so, those with legitimate concerns about 1.2 are generally voicing them in a more polite and respectful way, lest their motives be confused.
So, do I think they will shut down the forums? I highly doubt that. Not only would that be a PR nightmare, that would be a PR nightmare when these forums are giving Wizards the exact kind of forward momentum they want--and deserve based on the number of concessions they made to the community and the fact they have given the third party publishing community pretty much everything they want and more.
Given that forward momentum by both the community and by Wizards, this entire post feels like fearmongering. It almost is as if someone who made an alternate account to bash Wizards might be terrified that the rest of the community is realizing that victory is in hand, and is trying to again stoke up anger that is increasingly dwindling down to coals.
I do not see them ever closing the forums. They have been good about that. Some people who have got too heated may have lost access but I do not know that for sure. There are one or two threads I honestly thought should have got shut down over their titles but so far are still up.
In another matter there are not going to be any victories or victors in this dust up. The trust gained over 22 years is gone and will not be back anytime soon.
Lawsuits are going to occur and while Hasbro has deep pockets, they have been losing stock value like crazy in the last year and recent court decisions they have been in shows them they should never take anything for granted in a court of law.
I am also sure there are no smiles at WOTC either since they are caught in the middle and the field of companies they used to work with and competed against have now all joined together against them in defense. It is now a much more hostile environment than a mere month ago.
No one should be taking joy in any of this or be blaming anyone at Wizards of the Coast for it. They are as much a victim as the 3 party companies and the players for they are in the middle of a fight not started by the company that owns them, Hasbro.
I doubt the forums will be shutdown. For one thing, they actually attract more users and customers to the site. I always used physical books, but I came to DDB to discuss things and have now bought a decent amount of content here to use in the character builder. Not only do the forums entice people to use other parts of the site, but subforums such as the PBP one rarely allow physical character sheets, and this may cause people to spend money in order to be able to play the type of character they want there.
The forums make D&D Beyond better. They have places where community members provide free customer support for others so that the developers don't have to. Not only that, but we are a part of the game's community and Wizards of the Coast can look at us and at least know how some fans are reacting to changes to the game.
All in all, the forums may be a place with some debates and some necessary moderation, but they are more beneficial for D&D Beyond than not. At this point in time, we don't need any more unverified rumors about the game spreading. This is especially true considering the fact that Wizards of the Coast had "zero discussions" about getting rid of the forums when they first bought the site, according to an insider. It's been 8 months now, and there appears to be no sign of a change.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.That's a gross misrepresentation. There's a huge amount of pushback on areas such as section 3 that covers how WotC gets to be safe from claims of theft from 3rd parties and of course the VTT policy. Even so, 6f is integral to 3PP since it is the primary mechanism that WotC will use to terminate the license for 3PPs.
The fire is as lit as ever. It's hilarious that you don't get why it's so quiet. Everyone got to say their piece with survey. So at least for the moment, people have gotten a lot off their chest and are settling down to await what WotC will do next. Props to the survey for that.
That's not to say that good ol' Kyle and 1.2 didn't appease some folk of course. How many remains to be seen, and you're free to take from that what solace you wish.
edit: typo
They've already squeezed most of the outrage out of the old ones though
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I doubt it.
This forum is also used for support.
Check us out on Twitch, YouTube and the DISCORD!
Even If it is, you folks will still have Reddit.
If they would directly silence their community that should wake up even the ... [continue with your own fantasy derogatives sequence].
Yes, they "could" make the forum go away with the touch of button, as easy if not easier than someone joining D&D Beyond just prior to the end of 2022 to participate exclusively in OGL discussions. But as it's been mentioned on this thread a few times already, it wouldn't accomplish anything, and would delete the value added DDB gets from the community, not in a place to debate the "big ideas of D&D" but the practical customer service the community generates on its own re: the use of DDB tools and <gasp> the creation and implementation of homebrew within the tools.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.