Recently I've been working on a cantrip level magic missile. Now I feel like that I got the cantrip to the point where it scales as you level without getting either too powerful or would straight up replace magic missile. I'm just curious on what other people think about how I went about it or whatever else that should be added/taking away.
Auto hit is too powerful for a cantrip as it lets you automatically force concentration saves. It also does more damage at low levels than other cantrips like acid splash and frostbite that can miss, plus it is force damage that few things resist.
If you want a magic missle cantrip you can just reskin Eldritch Blast, perhaps lowering the damage to 1d8 of you want to give it to wizards. It is already balanced, does force damage at range, and gets extra missles at high level.
The way that i looked at it was to leave it as a 1d4+1 but I wanted it to scale as the character leveled, but the INT modifier was too fast for scaling to my liking and adding additional d4s would over scale it in my opinion. Now for the damage because it is a 1d4+2 (at level 1) I did think about how it compares to the other pure damage cantrips. Which compared to them (using fire bolt as an example), you can roll for damage 1d10, which has an average of 6 but max of 10. Now compared to this one, it has an average of 5, and a max of 6 but it is an auto hit.
It also does more damage at low levels than other cantrips like acid splash and frostbite that can miss, plus it is force damage that few things resist.
When it comes to this, I am actually okay with this cantrip averaging more damage than the 1d6/1d8 counter parts because these spells have a second effect rather than just raw damage. So it can be debated that by lowering one of these cantrips to 1d4 damage, you should have an even stronger secondary effect... such as an auto hit. For the two examples you put forth, Acid splash if used for its intended use of hitting two targets increases it's average from 4 (6 max) to 8 (12 max). As for frostbite, yes the damage is a bit lower but your imposing disadvantage against a creature while also dealing damage.
Now as it levels, it still is strong because it has the auto hit function, but compared to other cantrips that deal damage this cantrip scales horribly, using firebolt again, at level 20 firebolt would be doing 4d10 averaging at 24 (max of 40) if they hit compared to this spells average at 9 (max of 10). Also by this point other cantrips that started with 1d6/1d8 have also past its average in damage (even pore little vicious mockery averaging 12 (max of 16) while also still have their additional effects.
I like this cantrip, to me is a beginning envoker wizard's ideal cantrip.
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I've personally always felt that if you can cast a level 1 spell at level 2, you can cast it at level 0. magic missile, but it's two darts.
but yeah that's kinda overpowered.
From what I've seen other people do and from what I've played around with. There are only three ways to make this work. The first way, is like IamSposta said with doing a wizard's EB variant. Second, changing Firebolt from fire damage to force damage and finally, having it function like magic missile but with only a single missile e.i. a minor missile (credit to Haikumagician).
Anyone who creates a magic missile cantrip that functions with the auto hit but scales via adding additional missiles is just asking for a cantrip will equal out at level 11 and surpass the original at 17th level. Which is just bad design to have a cantrip surpass a leveled spell, especially the one that the spell is based on. Though I have played around with the idea of a minor missile spell that scales with your proficiency bonus (Fizzlewix's Minor Missile). I am content with it? Not really but it's an interesting idea to theory craft.
i agree with the very first comment - auto hit is way too powerful. that means you are pretty much never in a scenario where you do not have 100% chance of doing damage to your target - every single round - forever (unless they are immune to force damage which is pretty few and far between). no way i'd allow that at my table. no disadvantage, no 3/4 cover - never again does the caster have to worry about that.
even if you knock it down to 1 dart, its monstrously op imo.
and i also agree with the eldritch blast comments...take away auto hit and you have eldritch blast.
if you really want darts - split up eldritch blast into darts-each with its own chance to hit
the idea that an autohit cantrip is too powerful is kinda moot with an evokers potent cantrip ability at level 6. Toll the Dead has the same half damage on a failed save as a single magic missile dart would. You lose some overall capabilities in that you will never crit with it. Its also interesting to note that the first iteration of playtest material for D&D next, magic missile was a cantrip, single 1d4+1 dart. If you want to do a magic missile cantrip with auto-hit i think that your best bet would be a limited range, maybe 30 or MAX 60 foot range and would start with a single 1d4+1 and have it add darts as the player level scales. Limiting the range would make its overall power/usability more limited and on par with a cantrip. The biggest OP point/possibility of an auto-hit cantrip is forcing CON saves on casters so also limiting the range would mitigate that.
The overall feel of the thread is, it is not balanced. I agree with this. You would have to severely cripple the effects such as range to allow an auto-hit force damage cantrip in the game. Heck instead of 30 feet have it be 5 feet. Even then it would completely negate the disadvantage on ranged spell attacks for when you are in melee. An evocation wizard is probably going to be OK with 1d4+1+INT force damage against someone in melee. If you have it scale, it would be the fall back for up-close spell casting for any wizard.
What if you change it so you count as double proficient for the attack?
With bounded accuracy this would be pretty powerful. Not an auto-hit, but at low levels the wizard could easily get +8 to hit at 1st level. Low level monsters with low hit points would be taken apart.
the idea that an autohit cantrip is too powerful is kinda moot with an evokers potent cantrip ability at level 6. Toll the Dead has the same half damage on a failed save as a single magic missile dart would. You lose some overall capabilities in that you will never crit with it. Its also interesting to note that the first iteration of playtest material for D&D next, magic missile was a cantrip, single 1d4+1 dart. If you want to do a magic missile cantrip with auto-hit i think that your best bet would be a limited range, maybe 30 or MAX 60 foot range and would start with a single 1d4+1 and have it add darts as the player level scales. Limiting the range would make its overall power/usability more limited and on par with a cantrip. The biggest OP point/possibility of an auto-hit cantrip is forcing CON saves on casters so also limiting the range would mitigate that.
Just my opinion, i could be wrong
. I mean you are discussing the specific feature of one subclass and one gained mid-tier, to auto hit, scaling that can be obtained and used at level 1 by any wizard. Frankly mitigating the evoker feature in reality.
I like having a cantrip available for other casters that does 1d4+1 damage, and I think this magic missile cantrip would be fine. Heck, even Bards get Vicious Mockery which does 1d4 psychic damage but allows a wisdom save. But for the downside of the save, the target gets disadvantage on their next round first melee attack. In this context, Eldritch Blast is the OP cantrip.
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EB isnt OP, its the bread and butter of the Warlock class. Its designed the way it is because Warlocks are so limited in other ways. Its OP if its made available as a native cantrip to any other class.
Well, let's play our cards straight up. How many people take one level in Warlock just to get EB, so if the DM allows multiclassing, any player character can get EB.
I haven't done any examination of warlock compared to the other spell casters. I find it difficult to believe this one cantrip makes the class. Maybe it does, but that would cause me to think very little of the game designers if that is indeed the case.
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And Eldritch Blast requires a to hit roll every time for every blast. That is the difference with the magic missile cantrip idea. There is no chance of not doing damage and so few creatures are resistant or immune to force damage it would be considered over powered. It is just too different from the balanced cantrips that are currently in play. If damage increases by level, it might be the best damage cantrip for almost any situation. You are assured the damage against anything in range.
Eldritch Blast is a very core ability for the Warlock, but it does not define them. The one I have created and not played yet was going to be a spy using their invocations and spells to get around combat. He still had Eldritch Blast as it is the best damage cantrip, but it is not the defining part of the build. It may be worth a dip into Warlock for some to get it, but I would not.
You're also assured damage at range with potent cantrip and ANY save based cantrip. I would say a magic missile cantrip, with a range reduction, is as good as toll the dead is for a 6th level evocation wizard. The MM cantrip wont do as much damage as toll the dead can on a failed save, and the guaranteed damage on toll the dead on a failed save is equal to the damage of MM cantrip. The damage type difference of necro vs force i feel is negligible. Maybe make the MM cantrip not take-able until level 4 so it avoids some of the low level power...
Im actually super curious about this so im gonna make one and use it in my play-test groups next couple sessions, we have a low level and a mid level session coming up soon. So i'll report back on it soon. Im very versed in the capability of potent cantrip since my go-to cannon subclass is evocation.
Well... since this has been another time that this post has been necro-ed. This is going to be my updated and current opinion about this since this post is a year old now.
Do I think auto hit cantrips are busted... yes but also no. In my group, we only allow the minor missile cantrip for evocation wizards. Reason being, if the evocation wizard would rather do 1d4+1 damage rather than doing half damage from a spell like toll the dead (which is the best cantrip for an evocation wizard to use), then I'd say go for it. It becomes more beneficial to use other saving throw cantrips that scale as your level once you get the level 6 feature, with the only part keeping it better is the range and having a better damage type. The only tier that I've found where it breaks balance is the before level 5 when the cantrips haven't scaled.
side note: I've come to hate when people bring up vicious mockery as counter example for cantrip damage because I am a firm believer that it's under powered and should be d6 instead.
@FallenPheonixIV, how about this as an interesting idea, make an evoker variant that replaces the potent cantrip ability with an ability that adds "minor magic missile" or whatever you want to call it? Long term it would be somewhat advantageous but not too much so, it would just play into the theme of the evoker and its other abilities very well. since its would naturally be an evocation cantrip at level 10 it would be subject the to empowered evocation ability and gain the INT mod to damage of each dart as the full magic missile would. this would be preferable to toll the dead. The trade-off is less overall damage potential for a guaranteed hit that does consistent damage. Just a food for thought idea.
Recently I've been working on a cantrip level magic missile. Now I feel like that I got the cantrip to the point where it scales as you level without getting either too powerful or would straight up replace magic missile. I'm just curious on what other people think about how I went about it or whatever else that should be added/taking away.
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Auto hit is too powerful for a cantrip as it lets you automatically force concentration saves. It also does more damage at low levels than other cantrips like acid splash and frostbite that can miss, plus it is force damage that few things resist.
If you want a magic missle cantrip you can just reskin Eldritch Blast, perhaps lowering the damage to 1d8 of you want to give it to wizards. It is already balanced, does force damage at range, and gets extra missles at high level.
The way that i looked at it was to leave it as a 1d4+1 but I wanted it to scale as the character leveled, but the INT modifier was too fast for scaling to my liking and adding additional d4s would over scale it in my opinion. Now for the damage because it is a 1d4+2 (at level 1) I did think about how it compares to the other pure damage cantrips. Which compared to them (using fire bolt as an example), you can roll for damage 1d10, which has an average of 6 but max of 10. Now compared to this one, it has an average of 5, and a max of 6 but it is an auto hit.
When it comes to this, I am actually okay with this cantrip averaging more damage than the 1d6/1d8 counter parts because these spells have a second effect rather than just raw damage. So it can be debated that by lowering one of these cantrips to 1d4 damage, you should have an even stronger secondary effect... such as an auto hit. For the two examples you put forth, Acid splash if used for its intended use of hitting two targets increases it's average from 4 (6 max) to 8 (12 max). As for frostbite, yes the damage is a bit lower but your imposing disadvantage against a creature while also dealing damage.
Now as it levels, it still is strong because it has the auto hit function, but compared to other cantrips that deal damage this cantrip scales horribly, using firebolt again, at level 20 firebolt would be doing 4d10 averaging at 24 (max of 40) if they hit compared to this spells average at 9 (max of 10). Also by this point other cantrips that started with 1d6/1d8 have also past its average in damage (even pore little vicious mockery averaging 12 (max of 16) while also still have their additional effects.
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I like this cantrip, to me is a beginning envoker wizard's ideal cantrip.
I've personally always felt that if you can cast a level 1 spell at level 2, you can cast it at level 0. magic missile, but it's two darts.
but yeah that's kinda overpowered.
They already made a Cantrip level Magic Missile.
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From what I've seen other people do and from what I've played around with. There are only three ways to make this work. The first way, is like IamSposta said with doing a wizard's EB variant. Second, changing Firebolt from fire damage to force damage and finally, having it function like magic missile but with only a single missile e.i. a minor missile (credit to Haikumagician).
Anyone who creates a magic missile cantrip that functions with the auto hit but scales via adding additional missiles is just asking for a cantrip will equal out at level 11 and surpass the original at 17th level. Which is just bad design to have a cantrip surpass a leveled spell, especially the one that the spell is based on. Though I have played around with the idea of a minor missile spell that scales with your proficiency bonus (Fizzlewix's Minor Missile). I am content with it? Not really but it's an interesting idea to theory craft.
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i agree with the very first comment - auto hit is way too powerful. that means you are pretty much never in a scenario where you do not have 100% chance of doing damage to your target - every single round - forever (unless they are immune to force damage which is pretty few and far between). no way i'd allow that at my table. no disadvantage, no 3/4 cover - never again does the caster have to worry about that.
even if you knock it down to 1 dart, its monstrously op imo.
and i also agree with the eldritch blast comments...take away auto hit and you have eldritch blast.
if you really want darts - split up eldritch blast into darts-each with its own chance to hit
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What if you change it so you count as double proficient for the attack?
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Eldritch Blast already works that way.
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the idea that an autohit cantrip is too powerful is kinda moot with an evokers potent cantrip ability at level 6. Toll the Dead has the same half damage on a failed save as a single magic missile dart would. You lose some overall capabilities in that you will never crit with it. Its also interesting to note that the first iteration of playtest material for D&D next, magic missile was a cantrip, single 1d4+1 dart. If you want to do a magic missile cantrip with auto-hit i think that your best bet would be a limited range, maybe 30 or MAX 60 foot range and would start with a single 1d4+1 and have it add darts as the player level scales. Limiting the range would make its overall power/usability more limited and on par with a cantrip. The biggest OP point/possibility of an auto-hit cantrip is forcing CON saves on casters so also limiting the range would mitigate that.
Just my opinion, i could be wrong
The overall feel of the thread is, it is not balanced. I agree with this. You would have to severely cripple the effects such as range to allow an auto-hit force damage cantrip in the game. Heck instead of 30 feet have it be 5 feet. Even then it would completely negate the disadvantage on ranged spell attacks for when you are in melee. An evocation wizard is probably going to be OK with 1d4+1+INT force damage against someone in melee. If you have it scale, it would be the fall back for up-close spell casting for any wizard.
With bounded accuracy this would be pretty powerful. Not an auto-hit, but at low levels the wizard could easily get +8 to hit at 1st level. Low level monsters with low hit points would be taken apart.
.
I mean you are discussing the specific feature of one subclass and one gained mid-tier, to auto hit, scaling that can be obtained and used at level 1 by any wizard. Frankly mitigating the evoker feature in reality.
I like having a cantrip available for other casters that does 1d4+1 damage, and I think this magic missile cantrip would be fine. Heck, even Bards get Vicious Mockery which does 1d4 psychic damage but allows a wisdom save. But for the downside of the save, the target gets disadvantage on their next round first melee attack. In this context, Eldritch Blast is the OP cantrip.
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EB isnt OP, its the bread and butter of the Warlock class. Its designed the way it is because Warlocks are so limited in other ways. Its OP if its made available as a native cantrip to any other class.
Well, let's play our cards straight up. How many people take one level in Warlock just to get EB, so if the DM allows multiclassing, any player character can get EB.
I haven't done any examination of warlock compared to the other spell casters. I find it difficult to believe this one cantrip makes the class. Maybe it does, but that would cause me to think very little of the game designers if that is indeed the case.
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And Eldritch Blast requires a to hit roll every time for every blast. That is the difference with the magic missile cantrip idea. There is no chance of not doing damage and so few creatures are resistant or immune to force damage it would be considered over powered. It is just too different from the balanced cantrips that are currently in play. If damage increases by level, it might be the best damage cantrip for almost any situation. You are assured the damage against anything in range.
Eldritch Blast is a very core ability for the Warlock, but it does not define them. The one I have created and not played yet was going to be a spy using their invocations and spells to get around combat. He still had Eldritch Blast as it is the best damage cantrip, but it is not the defining part of the build. It may be worth a dip into Warlock for some to get it, but I would not.
You're also assured damage at range with potent cantrip and ANY save based cantrip. I would say a magic missile cantrip, with a range reduction, is as good as toll the dead is for a 6th level evocation wizard. The MM cantrip wont do as much damage as toll the dead can on a failed save, and the guaranteed damage on toll the dead on a failed save is equal to the damage of MM cantrip. The damage type difference of necro vs force i feel is negligible. Maybe make the MM cantrip not take-able until level 4 so it avoids some of the low level power...
Im actually super curious about this so im gonna make one and use it in my play-test groups next couple sessions, we have a low level and a mid level session coming up soon. So i'll report back on it soon. Im very versed in the capability of potent cantrip since my go-to cannon subclass is evocation.
Well... since this has been another time that this post has been necro-ed. This is going to be my updated and current opinion about this since this post is a year old now.
Do I think auto hit cantrips are busted... yes but also no. In my group, we only allow the minor missile cantrip for evocation wizards. Reason being, if the evocation wizard would rather do 1d4+1 damage rather than doing half damage from a spell like toll the dead (which is the best cantrip for an evocation wizard to use), then I'd say go for it. It becomes more beneficial to use other saving throw cantrips that scale as your level once you get the level 6 feature, with the only part keeping it better is the range and having a better damage type. The only tier that I've found where it breaks balance is the before level 5 when the cantrips haven't scaled.
side note: I've come to hate when people bring up vicious mockery as counter example for cantrip damage because I am a firm believer that it's under powered and should be d6 instead.
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@FallenPheonixIV, how about this as an interesting idea, make an evoker variant that replaces the potent cantrip ability with an ability that adds "minor magic missile" or whatever you want to call it? Long term it would be somewhat advantageous but not too much so, it would just play into the theme of the evoker and its other abilities very well. since its would naturally be an evocation cantrip at level 10 it would be subject the to empowered evocation ability and gain the INT mod to damage of each dart as the full magic missile would. this would be preferable to toll the dead. The trade-off is less overall damage potential for a guaranteed hit that does consistent damage. Just a food for thought idea.