MDGA

Quote from TheMadGibber >>

Quote from Furrybeardedmonk_198654 >>

DELETE ADOHANDS!?

 Don't worry, it's not happening.

 Thank god.

That would be terrible.

Quote from Furrybeardedmonk_198654 >>

That would be terrible.

 It definitely would.

Quote from TheMadGibber >>

Quote from Wes__ >>

Quote from TheMadGibber >>

Quote from himynamesare >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

 *Cut*

 I know odds are that you aren’t going to reply to or even see this post, but to me, this reads as the opinions of someone deeply unfamiliar with what Adohand’s actually is and just subsists off of what they think it is without even really interacting with the community (which I feel because a lot of what you suggested are things that already exist[ed])which is not all that surprising considering the general outside opinion of Adohand’s. Additionally it feels like someone who doesn’t like how the people on Adohand’s act because it doesn’t fit with their idea of how forum users should act, which is kinda pretentious, along with the post in general being kinda preachy. 

TLDR: Hands on the table with zero knowledge 

 While I disagree with some of it, he does have some valid points as well. We should make this space as welcoming for newcomers as possible since, let's be honest, people come and go a lot on this forum. So when one person leaves we need to make this place welcoming enough for another person or two to come in rather then it dwindling down over time.

Also, I don't know anyone who actually likes long quote chains even if invested in the community. You either don't care about them or hate scrolling through them.

Also also I find the concept of replying to a post talking about gatekeeping with "I disagree because you aren't active/don't interact on here" to be kinda ironic but that's a whole other thing that I don't wanna get into.

I personally agree with Himy, although I respect the opinions given. I also want to point out that Adohand’s is a space that is dominated by a teenage population.

With your first point, I agree, but I’m not sure that you really are on this forum enough for most of these points being said.

Finally, I think talking about untowardness when you blatantly said you want this forum deleted is intriguingly ironic—I’d love to know why, and you can PM me if you’re OK with telling.

Lastly—what’re you talking about when you say new users are frequently excluded? I…have never really seen that be the case EXCEPT when one of them violates forum rules, which…perhaps aren’t enforced as strongly as they could be, but I wonder how you’d put that into action, considering this is the most ‘off-topic’ forum of them all and thus should receive a bit of leniency. 
What rules are you talking about when you say that they’re being violated?

There’s my take. TL;DR: I agree with Himy, I do note that this is an example of us being untoward towards someone ‘new’, I still would encourage you to elaborate  on your opinions if you could.

 Uh, Wes? It's me, Gibber. Not the original commenter, who I assume isn't coming back because of the last statement in their post. Like I said, I disagree with some of their points, the need to delete Adohand's being one of them.

Unless if you were responding to the original post by quoting me who cut the original quote... Ok now I'm just confused.

My bad lol I just quoted it cause you cut the original post and I’m a lazy man

Quote from Wes__ >>

My bad lol I just quoted it cause you cut the original post and I’m a lazy man

 Why not instead of cutting, do what I do.

Quote, than delete the quotes inside of the quote.

Quote from boss0tron3000 >>

Quote from Wes__ >>

My bad lol I just quoted it cause you cut the original post and I’m a lazy man

 Why not instead of cutting, do what I do.

Quote, than delete the quotes inside of the quote.

 I don't bother. 

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

A number of posts on this thread confirm what I have long thought about Adohands - it is, hands down, the most gatekept part of these forums.  If one does not comport to how one is “expected” to act on this subsection, they are often met with derision.  On this thread, for example, the complaints have been on folks acting “too silly,” who multiple users have said should be excluded or relegated to other places.  On others, anyone who actually wants to post something meaningful on a subject - instead of the minimal replies to increasingly long one-sentence reply chains - might get mocked for being too wordy.  

Other issues include the fact that the entire subsection of the forums is dominated by the same generally insular friend group repeatedly making inside jokes referencing other threads, so those on thread A feel excluded because they were never part of thread B.  Threads that might ostensively being on one topic being hijacks by users using the topic for a personal messaging board, thinking italicized quotes excuses off-topic discussion.  And a proliferation of taverns that have turned Adohand’s from a place where one can discuss off topic conversations to an endless stream of taverns and insular joke threads that drown out the fundamental purpose of and off-topic section.  The numerous rules on how one is “supposed” to format posts that are known to the inside community, but are a barrier to entry for new users.

What should be done?

If I were Wizards, I would probably remove this entire forum section, for reasons I will not go into on this thread.  That, obviously, will not happen.

Instead, I think Wizards should split Adohand’s into two sections - a true off topic forum dedicated to discussion and an entire forum dedicated to taverns (likely with similar rules regarding post counts as the forum games section).  That would not solve some of the cultural gatekeeping elements of this community, but it would at least create a place where true off topic threads could thrive without competing for airspace.  More moderation would also be helpful - it is abundantly clear there exists a lack of moderation on this subsection.

That, however, is all unlikely to happen.

So, what can the community do?  The community can realize that a lot of their behavior that they see as friendly constitutes micro-aggressions against new users - not even counting the active aggressions on display on this and other threads.  If folks what to make new users feel welcome, they need to stop engaging in behaviors that scream “we are an exiting friend group who have turned this section of the forum into our clubhouse.”  The clique atmosphere created here is likely a primary source of the issues folks are raising about new users feeling “shy” - it is less they feel shy, and more feel excluded without any clear path to inclusion.

Some ways folks could fix that:

1. Actually staying on topic for a thread. The constant asides and conversations make every thread feel like another social facet of the clique, making it hard for folks to break into a single thread, even if they are interested in the topic. Everything dos not need to be “topic thread plus our using this topic for socializing” - those only interested in the topic are then excluded from the part they might want to discuss.

2. Be very careful about using inside jokes - especially inside jokes referencing different threads.  Inside jokes are inherently exclusionary - and while they can be fun, they also make those on the outside feel left out.

3. Only post when you have something meaningful to contribute. Off topic posts, spam posts, posts with one word responses - all of these drown out legitimate conversation and make folks who want to have a conversation think “huh, I am here to discuss something I am interested in, but no one else is. In fact, I kind of feel insulted that I spent time on a post, and got a bunch of spam, one-word responses instead of dialogue. Guess this is not worth my time.”  This is what killed a lot of the older off topic threads that more traditionally resembled off topic threads.

4. Stop with the long post chains.  They make the website harder to read and thus turn off new users. After all, they are not yet invested in the community, and it is very easy to conclude “wow, this endless scrolling to engage in a conversation is not worth the effort.” 

5. There is a culture here of “I have to make threads” that also causes a problem. Redundant and repetitive threads because someone wants to increase their thread count drown out other topics of conversation by pushing them off the front page.  When making a new thread, one should always ask the questions: “Has someone done this before?” “Will this actually add something?” And “Am I doing this because I think others will actually be interested, or is this for my own personal status?”

If folks are actually interested in making Adohand’s more welcoming, change starts with recognizing that the fundamental culture of this subsection is a far greater problem than the perceived shyness of new users.  Change would have to start within, with some significant cultural shifts in how folks use this subsection.  Frankly, I see that as about as likely as Wizards taking any of the options outlined above - but, who knows. Maybe it will happen. 

I do want to be clear, this post is not designed to insult anyone - and my intent is to be genuinely helpful. Folks on this thread expressed a genuine desire to make the place more welcoming, and I wanted to chime in and say the hard truths people are unlikely to otherwise voice.  Sometimes saying something no one wants to give a voice to, even something a bit candid, is the best help one can provide.

With that, I am unfollowing this thread - I said my piece and think it is good advice. It is now up to y’all to do what you will.

 I think I will take all of that advice. And use it in the future. Considering how much wisdom is held here.

Quote from Tana___ >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

A number of posts on this thread confirm what I have long thought about Adohands - it is, hands down, the most gatekept part of these forums.  If one does not comport to how one is “expected” to act on this subsection, they are often met with derision.  On this thread, for example, the complaints have been on folks acting “too silly,” who multiple users have said should be excluded or relegated to other places.  On others, anyone who actually wants to post something meaningful on a subject - instead of the minimal replies to increasingly long one-sentence reply chains - might get mocked for being too wordy.  

Other issues include the fact that the entire subsection of the forums is dominated by the same generally insular friend group repeatedly making inside jokes referencing other threads, so those on thread A feel excluded because they were never part of thread B.  Threads that might ostensively being on one topic being hijacks by users using the topic for a personal messaging board, thinking italicized quotes excuses off-topic discussion.  And a proliferation of taverns that have turned Adohand’s from a place where one can discuss off topic conversations to an endless stream of taverns and insular joke threads that drown out the fundamental purpose of and off-topic section.  The numerous rules on how one is “supposed” to format posts that are known to the inside community, but are a barrier to entry for new users.

What should be done?

If I were Wizards, I would probably remove this entire forum section, for reasons I will not go into on this thread.  That, obviously, will not happen.

Instead, I think Wizards should split Adohand’s into two sections - a true off topic forum dedicated to discussion and an entire forum dedicated to taverns (likely with similar rules regarding post counts as the forum games section).  That would not solve some of the cultural gatekeeping elements of this community, but it would at least create a place where true off topic threads could thrive without competing for airspace.  More moderation would also be helpful - it is abundantly clear there exists a lack of moderation on this subsection.

That, however, is all unlikely to happen.

So, what can the community do?  The community can realize that a lot of their behavior that they see as friendly constitutes micro-aggressions against new users - not even counting the active aggressions on display on this and other threads.  If folks what to make new users feel welcome, they need to stop engaging in behaviors that scream “we are an exiting friend group who have turned this section of the forum into our clubhouse.”  The clique atmosphere created here is likely a primary source of the issues folks are raising about new users feeling “shy” - it is less they feel shy, and more feel excluded without any clear path to inclusion.

Some ways folks could fix that:

1. Actually staying on topic for a thread. The constant asides and conversations make every thread feel like another social facet of the clique, making it hard for folks to break into a single thread, even if they are interested in the topic. Everything dos not need to be “topic thread plus our using this topic for socializing” - those only interested in the topic are then excluded from the part they might want to discuss.

2. Be very careful about using inside jokes - especially inside jokes referencing different threads.  Inside jokes are inherently exclusionary - and while they can be fun, they also make those on the outside feel left out.

3. Only post when you have something meaningful to contribute. Off topic posts, spam posts, posts with one word responses - all of these drown out legitimate conversation and make folks who want to have a conversation think “huh, I am here to discuss something I am interested in, but no one else is. In fact, I kind of feel insulted that I spent time on a post, and got a bunch of spam, one-word responses instead of dialogue. Guess this is not worth my time.”  This is what killed a lot of the older off topic threads that more traditionally resembled off topic threads.

4. Stop with the long post chains.  They make the website harder to read and thus turn off new users. After all, they are not yet invested in the community, and it is very easy to conclude “wow, this endless scrolling to engage in a conversation is not worth the effort.” 

5. There is a culture here of “I have to make threads” that also causes a problem. Redundant and repetitive threads because someone wants to increase their thread count drown out other topics of conversation by pushing them off the front page.  When making a new thread, one should always ask the questions: “Has someone done this before?” “Will this actually add something?” And “Am I doing this because I think others will actually be interested, or is this for my own personal status?”

If folks are actually interested in making Adohand’s more welcoming, change starts with recognizing that the fundamental culture of this subsection is a far greater problem than the perceived shyness of new users.  Change would have to start within, with some significant cultural shifts in how folks use this subsection.  Frankly, I see that as about as likely as Wizards taking any of the options outlined above - but, who knows. Maybe it will happen. 

I do want to be clear, this post is not designed to insult anyone - and my intent is to be genuinely helpful. Folks on this thread expressed a genuine desire to make the place more welcoming, and I wanted to chime in and say the hard truths people are unlikely to otherwise voice.  Sometimes saying something no one wants to give a voice to, even something a bit candid, is the best help one can provide.

With that, I am unfollowing this thread - I said my piece and think it is good advice. It is now up to y’all to do what you will.

 I think I will take all of that advice. And use it in the future. Considering how much wisdom is held here.

 Yeah. I agree with most of it, with the exception of deleting or splitting Adohand's.

I think splitting it wouldn't even be that bad.

Quote from Tana___ >>

I think splitting it wouldn't even be that bad.

 Yeah, but it might make us even more divided.

Quote from LinkArcher >>

Quote from Tana___ >>

I think splitting it wouldn't even be that bad.

 Yeah, but it might make us even more divided.

 but.. but... where would the never ending arena go?

Forum games.

Quote from LinkArcher >>

Quote from Tana___ >>

I think splitting it wouldn't even be that bad.

 Yeah, but it might make us even more divided.

 Maybe. But it's kinda hard considering we have a couple chat threads that it really wouldn't matter.

Uhhhhhhhh personally I sorta think that Adohands shouldn't be split? All these wacky ideas and threads make sort of the heart of adohands. 

maybe I lied and said I thought that was a good idea earlier, but I don't. 

Quote from 50thAltOfBananer >>

Uhhhhhhhh personally I sorta think that Adohands shouldn't be split? All these wacky ideas and threads make sort of the heart of adohands. 

maybe I lied and said I thought that was a good idea earlier, but I don't. 

 Ok.

Quote from Tana___ >>

Quote from LinkArcher >>

Quote from Tana___ >>

I think splitting it wouldn't even be that bad.

 Yeah, but it might make us even more divided.

 Maybe. But it's kinda hard considering we have a couple chat threads that it really wouldn't matter.

 Yeah.