I've heard the common sentiment across multiple platforms and over the years that Ranger DPR is solid...until around 11th-level, and then it falls off a cliff. I decided to run the numbers to see if that is, indeed, true. My original calculations can be found on this post and assume that the 11th-level Ranger, Fighter, and and Paladin are conserving all of their resources. I also did 15th-level subclass breakdown for the Ranger.
That said, I became curious about the average dpr of the Ranger at 20th-level including burst/spike damage and liberal use of resources, and how it compared to the Paladin and Fighter. I also threw in Barbarian and Rogue for good measure (will probably edit this post to include Monk damage once I run those calcs.) So, let's talk about 20th-level martial class dpr.
For 20th-level, I made a few assumptions: 1. All of these are assuming no multi-classing 2. Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger were all using GWM and PAM with a Glaive; Rogue is wielding two short-swords. 3. Despite this, only classes that can find a consistent way to offset the GWM attack roll penalty will be making use of GWM, since at 20th-level, a -5 to attack rolls is too steep a price to pay 4. Advantage in attack rolls averages out to +5. 5.Ranger is concentrating on Favored Foe/Foe Slayer unless otherwise stated. I ran the calcs for Hunter's Mark instead and accounted for variable Favored Enemy/Foe Slayer, but it just made things too messy, especially with action economy factored in. Favored Foe Slayer doesn't do as much damage as Hunter's Mark/Favored Enemy Slayer, but it is more consistent 6. All classes are going 'all out,' meaning they're expending their resources at every opportunity. 7. Barbarian, Paladin, and Fighter will be abusing the extra attack from PAM every round; Rogue will be dual-wielding short-swords but does not have TWF 8. Everyone is fighting a big gray sack of HP 9. Damage stats (Str, Dex, Wis, etc) are maxed out 10. All attacks are assumed to connect...provided there are no attack roll penalties (unless the class has a consistent way to offset the penalty)
I calculated the burst damage of all five classes over 1 round, 6 rounds, and 10 rounds. Why these benchmarks? By 20th-level, a Fighter gets two Action Surge uses per short rest, so assuming no rests, they get spent after round two. If a Paladin is Smiting on every attack, they get spent after round five. If a Ranger is using Nature's Veil every round, they get spent after round 6. Barbarians and Rogues don't have any resources to burn through, so their damage stays consistent. Round 1 DPR shows us how much damage they can do with bursts in a single round. Round 6 DPR shows us how much damage they can do while waiting for Nature's Veil to run out (Nature's Veil being the longest-lasting 'resource' in these calcs.) Round 10 dpr assumes they had four rounds of conserving resources between bursts, meaning that in these rounds we will see the lowest possible damage they can each deal.
Assuming one combat encounter lasts roughly ˜3 rounds, the first six rounds of combat will equal two combat encounters, while the first ten rounds will equal three and some change encounters. Also note that these 'rounds' can be broken down and separated with non-burst rounds (hence the 10-round calcs.) The ultimate math does not change. Note that 5th-Edition assumes a rough estimate of 6-8 encounters per day. At 3 rounds per encounter, that is about 18-24 rounds per day. But once all the classes have expended their resources, the damage begins to level off.
*Note: Most classes (except Ranger, but we'll get to that) get most of their power from their base class. So I made these calculations assuming only their base class features. There are some subclasses for these classes (Battlemaster; Vengeance Pally) whose damage can go higher than what's listed, but since their resources are not consistent among all subclasses of a given class, they were not taken into account.
Let's begin:
Barbarian- Barbarians are mercifully easy to calculate (unlike Fighters, Paladins, and especially Rangers.) I assumed they would be making three attacks every round while Raging and using Reckless Attack to give themselves consistent advantage.
With consistent advantage, they offset the GWM penalty and can thus abuse that feat with impunity. The damage calculations for the Barbarian ended up being 2(1d10+7+4+10) + (1d4+7+4)= 72.5
So in Round 1, the Barbarian is dealing 72.5 damage and since they don't expend any resources to do this, they can deal this damage consistently over six rounds and over 10 rounds.
Note: Barbarian also has the highest HP ceiling and resistance to weapon damage, making them excellent tanks in addition to their impressive damage. This damage also does not take Brutal Critical into consideration.
Fighter- Fighter was sort of a nightmare to calculate because I was trying to account for the potential of short rests in between the first six rounds, to give it an edge. Your average Fighter has no way of granting themselves consistent advantage, so they will not be using GWM. Ultimately, I calculated the Fighter's DPR assuming only two Action Surges and then I calculated their DPR assuming six Action Surges (presumably they got short rests in between.) Then I found the median and that is what I used for their final numbers.
Fighters get to make 5 attacks per round with PAM. The math ends up being: 4(1d10+5) + (1d4+5)=49.5. When they Action Surge, however, the math goes up to 8(1d10+5) + (1d4+5)=91.5. Depending on how many short rests they get in-between, they will deal drastically more or drastically less damage over the course of an adventuring day. As stated, I took the median of a Fighter with two Action Surges and a Fighter with six Action Surges.
Paladin- Not quite as hard to calculate as Fighter or Ranger, but still annoying since I had to account for Divine Smite's depleting damage dice. Like with Fighter, Paladin doesn't have a consistent way to get Advantage for GWM, so I stuck to just PAM with them. With PAM, they're making three attacks per round, which means they're Smiting on three attacks per round. Going from strongest to weakest, that means Round 1 they're using two 5th-levels and a 4th-level Smite, Round 2 they use two 4th-levels and a 3rd-level Smite, and so on until they're spent. Assuming this, they get spent after five rounds. The damage calcs are 2(1d10+1d8+5) + (1d4+1d8+5) + [x]. X= Smite. In descending order, this means [x]= 17d8, 14d8, 11d8, 8d8, 6d8, and 0.
Note: Even after completely blowing through their spell slots, Paladins still have Lay on Hands for healing and three different always-on auras (Protection, subclass, Courage), so they can still support the combat even without Smiting
Rogue- Like the Barbarians, Rogues were easy to calculate. I took their short-sword attacks and added Sneak Attack. Since Rogues don't expend any resources, they can consistently do this damage over the course of one, six, and ten rounds. So that is 1d6+5 + 1d6 + 10d6= 47
Rogue:
Round 1: 47 Round 6: 282 Round 10: 470
Edit: Also, for fun, I went ahead and did Rogue calcs with Sharpshooter and a shortbow. Here are the results: Rogue: Round 1: 53.5 Round 6: 321 Round 10: 535 Higher damage for sure, but still not enough to increase its standing.
Note: Despite their comparatively low damage, Rogues have four skill expertises and reliable talent, making up for the lack of dpr with impressive non-combat utility
Ranger- Finally, we come to the Ranger. And boy this was a nightmare and a half to calculate. As stated, Rangers get most of their power from their subclasses, but the subclasses aren't uniform in the way they handle that power. some will do more damage than others and some will do damage more consistently than others. Some will skyrocket in damage under certain circumstances and plummet under others. I had to account for all of that. For instance, I had to account for a Hunter Ranger with Horde Breaker against only one target as well as a Hunter Ranger with Horde Breaker against three targets. And that's a big range right there. Because of this, some subclasses can actually shoot right past Barbarian and Paladin while others languish behind with Rogue. Please see my follow-up comment for Ranger damage breakdown by subclass, as it also contains the math used for the numbers below.
Rangers like to deal consistent damage, so unlike Paladins and Fighters that blow their resources each round, a Ranger with Favored Foe Slayer is able to add that damage to the target until the target is dead. Furthermore, Rangers get Nature's Veil*, which gives them invisibility and thus advantage on attack rolls, which allows them to proc GWM, but at the cost of their BA attack from PAM. So I calculated the first six rounds with just GWM and the last four with them switching over to just PAM. Y'know, because things weren't complicated enough. Nature's Veil also provides a defensive buff by imposing disadvantage on attack rolls against them, so they're more or less safe in terms of Favored Foe Slayer concentration, though they have access to six uses of Favored Foe Slayer per day and it sticks around until the target is dead, so even if they get hit, they can reapply it pretty consistently that I felt it was okay to include.
Ultimately, what I decided to do was similar to the Fighter's approach. I calculated the damage of each individual subclass and found the median, getting the final numbers.
*Nature's Veil was chosen over Hide in Plain Sight because of its more direct combat application, which is more relevant to us right now as we're calculating dpr.
Ranger:
Round 1: 69 Round 6: 416.5 Round 10: 645
Reminder: please see my follow-up comment for Ranger damage breakdown by subclass, as it also contains the math used for the numbers below.
Note: The above calculations assume only Nature's Veil and Favored Foe Slayer are being expended, meaning Ranger still has access to their entire spell-casting repertoire, as well as riders on every attack that vary from subclass to subclass, which were not included in the above. Furthermore, the above also does not take into account non-combat utility from Natural/Deft Explorer, Primeval/Primal Awareness, and other sources.
As you can see, Ranger's dpr is significantly better than the Rogue's but lags slightly behind Fighter. That being said, the Ranger's DPR isn't actually that far behind Fighters, and in ten rounds of combat, are within striking distance of the Fighter. Ultimately, Ranger keeps up with the other martials just fine. And none of this takes into account the Ranger's riders, spell-casting, or skills. Some subclasses, as we'll see below, can actually out-pace Fighter, Paladin, and even Barbarian over the course of 10 rounds, and more than keep up over the course of six. Overall, I'd say the Ranger is in a pretty comfortable place, nearly matching the Fighter's damage while also providing additional effects and some non-combat utility.
If anything, this has shown me that just because Rogues roll more damage dice, doesn't mean they do more actual damage. But again, this is not an indictment on the Rogue either. They more than make up for this in skill utility.
What am I saying with all of this? I'm saying that every martial class is good in its own way in and/or out of combat.
For subclass damage, let's keep some of the same assumptions as above: 1. GWM and PAM will be used whenever possible 2. Advantage amounts to +5 attack roll 3. Favored Foe Slayer is active unless otherwise stated 4. No multi-classing 5. Maxed damaging stats 6. Fighting big gray sack(s) of HP 7. All attacks are assumed to connect...provided there are no attack roll penalties (unless the class has a consistent way to offset the penalty)
I'll also repost the Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Rogue final numbers, as well as the Ranger median, for comparison's sake:
Hunter: Already we're jumping into the deep end. Hunter is a class that excels at attacking multiple targets. It's single-target damage is not very impressive, but it's multi-attack makes it really strong. I decided to calculate the Hunter with Colossus Slayer against one target and against three targets (to proc Multi-Attack), and then also the Hunter with Horde Breaker against one target and against three targets. I used Nature's Veil in the first six rounds to proc GWM and PAM in the last four.
Calculating the median, we get: Hunter 1 Round: 67 Hunter 6 Rounds: 401.5 Hunter 10 Rounds: 588.75 (rounded to 589)
Beast Master: Another complicated one. I calculated the damage from the regular Beast Master with a wolf companion as well as the damage for a Tasha Beast Master with each the beasts of the land, sea, and sky (damage for sea and sky is the same.) For the sake of my sanity, I went with the general consensus that the Tasha Beast Master lets you make two attacks as a Ranger and two more with the pet. Here's the thing, even if the Tasha Beast Master only allowed three attacks, PAM would give it four anyway. And the difference is literally just a d10 --> d4, which I didn't think was worth calculating separately. Also worth noting is that the Beast Master can abuse PAM because they can get a constant source of advantage from their pet (assuming flanking rules,) so they're the rare Ranger that can abuse PAM and GWM. And because of this, they don't need to use Nature's Veil at all, which means their damage actually remains consistent over the course of one round, six rounds, and ten rounds.
If anyone wants me to provide the calcs for Beast Masters without the flanking rules, please let me know, as I do have them. Anyway,
Beast Master (Wolf): (1d10+5+10) + (1d4+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 2(2d4+2+6)= 71.5/1r, 429/6r, 715/10r Beast of the Land: 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 2(1d8+2+6) + 1d6 charging= 79/1r, 474/6r, 790/10r Beast of the Sea/Sky: 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 2(1d6+2+6)= 73.5/1r, 441/6r, 735/10r*
*Note: Beast of the Sky's calculations are 2(1d4+3+6,) but they average out to the same amount
Note:Beast Companions provide additional tactical benefits by having another body on the battlefield, as well as knock prone, grapple, and flyby in addition to damage.
Gloomstalker: Another difficult one. Because Dread Ambusher only lasts one round, I had to mimic my Fighter methodology for them. I calculated the damage assuming they had only one round of Dread Ambusher and then again assuming they had six. I also assumed they weren't getting their natural invisibility because it's situational, so these calcs were made with Nature's Veil.
So round 1 Gloomstalker math is 3(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 1d8= 75.5, whereas subsequent rounds it goes down to 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5)=38.5
Note: Gloomstalker is invisible in darkness, gets a bonus to their Initiative, and can reroll one missed attack per round as a reaction in addition to the damage.
Horizon Walker: I did this one a little differently. Instead of concentrating on Favored Foe Slayer, I had them concentrate on Haste. This takes out one of their spell slots, but still leaves them with 6 uses of Favored Foe Slayer for a protracted adventuring day. They also get up to eight chances to cast Haste, as well as Nature's Veil and teleportation, so losing concentration is really not very likely. Haste also lasts across ten rounds of combat. In addition, the average damage from Planar Warrior (2d8) is higher than a PAM attack, so I used that instead for when they ran out of Nature's Veils.
Horizon Walker Single-target: 3(1d10+5+10)= 61.5 or Horizon Walker Three Targets: 4(1d10+5+10)= 82
Note: Horizon Walker also teleports 20-30ft (or 30-40ft with Haste) every round for free without messing with the action economy of the ranger in addition to the damage
Monster Slayer: Like all the ones before it, Monster Slayer's damage varies, this time depending on whether or not it can proc Slayer's Counter. At 20th-level, it should be getting this damage pretty regularly, but I still calculated it both with and without Slayer's Counter.
Without Slayer's Counter, the Monster Slayer math is 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 1d6= 54. Meanwhile, with Slayer's Counter, the go up to 3(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 2(1d6)= 68
Note: Slayer's Counter serves as an opportunity attack, and a hit counts as an auto-success on a save (including concentration saves) in addition to the damage.
Fey Wanderer: Luckily (for my sanity) from here on out, things get more consistent. Like with Horizon Walker, I actually decided to dip into the Fey Wanderer's spell-casting for this one. By which I mean, I chose to use Summon Fey at 4th-level instead of taking the spell-free basic 3rd-level. Because I can use Summon Fey without concentration, it actually also allows me to keep Favored Foe Slayer. Without concentration, the Fey only lasts one minute, but that is essentially covering all 10 rounds, and it can still be summoned up to eight more times if it goes away (albeit weaker on four of those.) Furthermore, the Fey itself can also provide advantage via flanking, so the Fey Wanderer can actually proc GWM and still use PAM. With that in mind, here are the calcs:
Worth noting, however, is that the fey itself is really frail and prone to dying, in which case you'll have to spend additional turns re-summoning. Still, that's insane damage.
Note: The Summoned Fey also has 1/round teleportation and can provide one of the following effects in addition to the damage: advantage on its attack, magical darkness, or Charm/Beguiling Twist. In addition, it also provides all the tactical benefits of having another body on the battlefield.
Swarmkeeper: We keep the train of simplicity going. Swarmkeeper is probably the weakest of the Rangers in terms of damage, since it doesn't get any sort of 3rd subclass attack. Rather, all it gets is 1d8 at 11th-level from Gathered Swarm. This is okay though, because ultimately Swarmkeeper doesn't care about damage so much as area control. The calcs are 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 1d8= 55
Note: Swarmkeeper can --and should-- forego even this damage in order to push/knock prone or slide itself into a better position instead. This battlefield control is what the Swarmkeeper is really all about; not the damage.
Drakewarden: Like Beast Master, but with fewer variables. PAM is wasted here, but the Drake does provide flanking advantage, so GWM is going to proc consistently, since it costs no resources to flank with the drake. Again, if you want the calcs without flanking, let me know. Calcs: 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + (3d6+6) + 1d6= 70.5
Note: You can forego the advantage in favor of using the Drake as a mount. In addition, the Drake provides all the tactical benefits of having another body on the battlefield. Furthermore, the Drake grants a breath weapon attack you can choose to use instead. If that wasn't enough, the Drake grants a fly/swim speed. All of this in addition to the above damage.
God, I really hope I transcribed all the formulas correctly. I really don't want to have to go back and redo all my calculations again. Anyway, that's it. Feel free to discuss.
If you really want to see some interesting Damage. Try calculating it out with Archery Fighting Style, Sharpshooter, a Long bow and Swift Quiver. They are a class that's actually likely through various means on top of the fighting style to mitigate at least some of the -modifier they get from Sharpshooter meaning they can make pretty fair use of it. And with Swift Quiver involved they are able to make 4 attacks a round (5 in certain circumstances such as being a beast master). It is strong and consistant in damage both overall and with growing damage potential in longer encounters. Though it does have the caveat that it doesn't fully kick in until level 17 since Swift Quiver is a 5th level spell. It's also not Hunter's Mark compatible after a certain point. But I don't think you used hunters mark in your calculations from what I can tell anyway so that doesn't really matter.
Swift Quiver is a lot of fun. It's my go-to 5th-level spell. Worth pointing out tho is that it conflicts with Hunter's Mark, Favored Foe Slayer, Nature's Veil, and Crossbow Expert (and gets in the way of Slayer's Prey and Planar Warrior.) Still a top-tier choice.
The reason I didn't factor it into my calculations is that, for the sake of uniformity, I gave a Glaive to everyone that could wield it. Barbarians and Paladins drop significantly if using ranged weapons and I wanted to mitigate variables where I could.
Swift Quiver is a lot of fun. It's my go-to 5th-level spell. Worth pointing out tho is that it conflicts with Hunter's Mark, Favored Foe Slayer, Nature's Veil, and Crossbow Expert (and gets in the way of Slayer's Prey and Planar Warrior.) Still a top-tier choice.
The reason I didn't factor it into my calculations is that, for the sake of uniformity, I gave a Glaive to everyone that could wield it. Barbarians and Paladins drop significantly if using ranged weapons and I wanted to mitigate variables where I could.
Paladins and Rangers aren't built for much if any Ranged. Much like the Monk. Ranged is a key part of many Ranger's kits however.
And As for Crossbow Expert. It only conflicts with one part And yet Doesn't Conflict with Crossbow Expert as the same time. I know that sounds slightly Strange but Let me Explain.
The only Part of Crossbow Expert that Swift Quiver conflicts with is the bonus action attack which is effectively a dual wielding feature and is restricted to only the hand crossbow to function. The Rest of the parts still work. However it doesn't conflict at all at the same time because Swift Quiver does not insist that it be used with a Bow. Just any ranged weapon that uses ammunition out of that Quiver. So it can just as easily be Bolts for a Crossbow as well. meaning that You can actually add Crossbow Expert in With Sharp Shooter and do the 4 to 5 shots with a Crossbow at the cost of an extra feat thanks to the first part of Crossbow Expert which removes the loading Property issue. Which makes Swift Quiver an outright upgrade to the bonus Action attack for anybody that does not want to dual wield hand crossbows or make a melee attack and a hand crossbow attack. Which no crossbow but the hand crossbow can actually make use of that bonus action attack anyway because all the rest are two handed. So you potentially increase the damage possibility even further since the Damage of a Heavy Crossbow is a 1d10 instead of 1d8 if you do want to make the increased investment.
I do Admit that i missed the Interaction with Favored Foe Slayer and that you were using it in your calculations to mention that does offset the math a little bit however.
I do actually agree that, if anything, my calcs for the Ranger don't take the whole package into account. I barely factored in it's spellcasting (certainly not the Conjure spells,) nor did I apply the BA Hide from Vanish -which would've been useful once they expended Nature's Veil, nor did I have them use weapons that they could actually abuse.
And yet even with all these factors working against them, I'd say their final numbers are still quite impressive when combined with their riders. So if anything, I'd argue this is a testament to how good the Ranger can be in battle.
I do actually agree that, if anything, my calcs for the Ranger don't take the whole package into account. I barely factored in it's spellcasting (certainly not the Conjure spells,) not did I apply the BA Hide from Vanish -which would've been useful once they expended Nature's Veil, nor did I have them use weapons that they could actually abuse.
And yet even with all these factors working against them, I'd say their final numbers are still quite impressive when combined with their riders. So if anything, I'd argue this is a testament to how good the Ranger can be in battle.
This is true. The Reality is that All of the Martial classes for various reasons are Reasonably within range of each other. Even the Rogue with it's fairly unique High Variance, High Maximum, High Sustainability (aka High Risk, High Reward) style of martial damage can stay well within range of the various other classes. The monk Technically is just a bit lower than the fighter at level 20. But that's not factoring in the fact that their purpose in part is different from Damage or any of their abilities really. since they are basically doing the same damage but without the GWM involved and like the Ranger there can be some variance based upon subclass and even circumstances under which they can use their abilities.
It’s already proved by numbers that a Ranger in the hands of a seasoned player can be vastly superior to any other martial class in every pillar of the game — from levels 1 to 20.
You guys have literally broken a internet myth that blinds the community since 2016.
It’s already proved by numbers that a Ranger in the hands of a seasoned player can be vastly superior to any other martial class in every pillar of the game — from levels 1 to 20.
You guys have literally broken a internet myth that blinds the community since 2016.
But it still persists regularly in various places... And there are a few more that I'd really like to break. But those ones are even more mired in sentiment against them.
Oh yeah. There are a ton of myths I'd like to disprove. Some of my favorites:
1. Just play a Valor Bard with Ranger skills and Magical Secrets: Swift Quiver- No. You're not. A Valor Bard with Swift Quiver and no way to grant itself consistent advantage for Sharpshooter is making 4(1d8+5)=38 per round. They also get no 3rd attack and no scaling damage die like Rangers do. For comparison, the median for the Ranger's damage is 69. On top of that, your Bard is concentrating on Swift Quiver and using its bonus action to shoot, so it can't use concentration Bard spells and can't even hand out inspiration. Hell, a Bard with Synaptic Static+Swift Quiver does 8d6 + 2(1d8+5)=47. For context, that's the same as a Rogue with Sneak attack and two short-swords. And again, the Ranger median is 69. So now you've wasted a Magical Secret on Swift Quiver, have to spend your bonus action making two ranged attacks (and thus can't give Bardic,) are using your concentration on making those two ranged attacks, and you still can't match the Ranger's median damage. At best, you match with the Rogue --who also lags behind Ranger. So...what do you get for all your trouble? Expertise on Ranger skills? I mean, congratulations, you're better than a Ranger that's out of their element, and just as good as a Ranger in their element (except not really because a Ranger Survival in Favored Terrain will yield better results than a Bard survival in a Ranger's Favored Terrain.) Congrats. Hope it was worth it. Note: I am not saying Bard is a bad class. I would never even dream of saying that. Bard's are honestly a top-tier class. But they make for terrible Rangers. Bards should be trying to be the best Bard they can be instead of trying to be shitty, off-brand Rangers.
2. Just play a Fighter with the Outlander background- What, exactly, does this accomplish? At best, you're about as good as a Ranger that's out of their element. Oh, and you can forage good (woohoo! One of the benefits of Natural Explorer.) A Ranger in their element runs circles around you. A Ranger with Deft Explorer and expertise in Survival also runs circles around you. A Ranger with Goodberry runs circles around you. And all of this while the Ranger is still allowed to pick a background that is actually interesting. As for damage, see my first post. The Fighter barely outpaces the Ranger in terms of dpr, and the Ranger makes up that difference with its riders, spellcasting, and non-combat utility. Note: Fighters are an excellent class. They just make bad Rangers. Let Fighters be Fighters and you'll get more out of them than trying to be shitty, off-brand Rangers (notice a pattern yet?)
3. Just play a Scout Rogue- I mean, sure. If you want to play Baby's First Ranger. Honestly, the more I think about it, the less I like the Scout. You get Expertise in Nature and Survival. Fantastic. You're now as good as the Ranger in its element (except, not really, because a successful Ranger Survival in Favored Terrain yields more benefits than a successful Rogue Survival in Ranger's Favored Terrain.) I guess you beat the Ranger out of its element in two skills, unless that Ranger takes Deft Explorer Expertise in one of them. Then you're only better in one skill until 14th-level when you get reliable talent. In exchange, you're losing out on Ranger spells, rider effects, and damage. Remember, a Ranger's median dpr is 69. A rogue's is 47. So by 20th-level, you do less damage, have no spells, and have to decide whether you want to proc Sneak Attack twice to catch up or leave yourself out in the open to get hit in the face by Tiamat's five heads (this and advantage on Initiative are the only consistent rider effect you can use, by the way. Go wild). Congrats. Hope your Expertise and Reliable Talent in two Ranger skills and 10ft of movement were worth it. Spoiler alert: they probably weren't. Note: Yet again, I am not saying Rogue is a bad class. On the contrary. Rogue is one of the best-designed and executed classes in the game. But they make terrible Rangers.
Fey Wanderer: Luckily (for my sanity) from here on out, things get more consistent. Like with Horizon Walker, I actually decided to dip into the Fey Wanderer's spell-casting for this one. By which I mean, I chose to use Summon Fey at 4th-level instead of taking the spell-free basic 3rd-level. Because I can use Summon Fey without concentration, it actually also allows me to keep Favored Foe Slayer. Without concentration, the Fey only lasts one minute, but that is essentially covering all 10 rounds, and it can still be summoned up to eight more times if it goes away (albeit weaker on four of those.) Furthermore, the Fey itself can also provide advantage via flanking, so the Fey Wanderer can actually proc GWM and still use PAM. With that in mind, here are the calcs:
Worth noting, however, is that the fey itself is really frail and prone to dying, in which case you'll have to spend additional turns re-summoning. Still, that's insane damage.
Note: The Summoned Fey also has 1/round teleportation and can provide one of the following effects in addition to the damage: advantage on its attack, magical darkness, or Charm/Beguiling Twist. In addition, it also provides all the tactical benefits of having another body on the battlefield.
I'm sorry if I'm reviving a dead thread, but I need some help with your calculations. I'm doing my own theory crafting with numbers and trying to follow along with what you have here. I will start by saying I'm a complete newb. I do, however, know that when calculating dice, it's essentially (sides + 1)/2. So a 1d6 = 3.5. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Now, I'm trying to understand your first round here. It's assumed that Fey Spirits are already out and ready and were cast at level 4. So I get that. I'm trying to understand the attacks from the PC.
The damage as I understand it:
(1d10+5+10) - 1d10 is the melee, 5 is the advantage, 10 is for GWM
(1d8+5) - I'm not sure what this is?
(1d4+5+10) - This is the bonus attack from PAM
2(1d6+3+4+1d6) - This is the Fey damage
My questions are
Why didn't you factor in the 1d6 from Dreadful Strikes on the first attack? Sure, it's not much, but I just want to understand if it was intentional and why so I can understand the subclass better.
Where is the 1d8 damage for Favored Foe? Is that the (1d8+5)? If so, why add the 5 to that? It's just extra damage on top of the standard weapon damage right? If you are adding it for that, would you not add it for Dreadful Strikes?
Where is the +5 for the Wisdom modifier of Foe Slayer?
Why are you adding +5 for advantage? Are you doing that because of the chances of crit doubling the damage? Or is this for the proficiency of GWM?
Maybe I'm just not understanding, but wouldn't one round be like this if you had Favored Foe, Foe Slayer, Fey Spirits already summoned:
Round 2 (and thereafter): Action EB/ BA Quicken EB = 112 damage per round
This would be for any enemy not even against favored foe.
A sorcerer at that level could do this 10 times before converting any points and could convert 3 5th level (21 SP), 3 4th level (18 SP), 3 3rd level (15 points), 3 second level (9 points), and 4 1st level (6 points) for a total of 69 SP to do this an additional 34 times that day for a grand total of 54 times.
This means that on the rounds after Hex activation (which only requires a short rest to get back) they would be doing 6048 damage per day across any encounters with this combo.
Round 2 (and thereafter): Action EB/ BA Quicken EB = 112 damage per round
This would be for any enemy not even against favored foe.
A sorcerer at that level could do this 10 times before converting any points and could convert 3 5th level (21 SP), 3 4th level (18 SP), 3 3rd level (15 points), 3 second level (9 points), and 4 1st level (6 points) for a total of 69 SP to do this an additional 34 times that day for a grand total of 54 times.
This means that on the rounds after Hex activation (which only requires a short rest to get back) they would be doing 6048 damage per day across any encounters with this combo.
I think OP's point was to compare single class martial to each other. Notice in their original posts, all numbers are based on a single class, not multi-class, and they're all martial classes.
Round 2 (and thereafter): Action EB/ BA Quicken EB = 112 damage per round
This would be for any enemy not even against favored foe.
A sorcerer at that level could do this 10 times before converting any points and could convert 3 5th level (21 SP), 3 4th level (18 SP), 3 3rd level (15 points), 3 second level (9 points), and 4 1st level (6 points) for a total of 69 SP to do this an additional 34 times that day for a grand total of 54 times.
This means that on the rounds after Hex activation (which only requires a short rest to get back) they would be doing 6048 damage per day across any encounters with this combo.
I think OP's point was to compare single class martial to each other. Notice in their original posts, all numbers are based on a single class, not multi-class, and they're all martial classes.
Then CBE + SS Fighter:
Round 1: Action Shoot Handcrossbow: 4 (1d6+15) = 74; Action surge for second attack action: 74 damage then BA CBE attack: 18.5= Total damage 166.
Favored Foe/Foe Slayer is one of the most potent damaging class features in the game. I created a spreadsheet to calculate the typical damage increase. It outpaces pretty much every other class in overall damage.
If I may, Hexblade with PAM/GWM and maximum charismas wielding a +1 Glaive with Thirsting Blade (extra attack) and Lifedrinker (+ charima bonus necrotic damage per attack) and eldritch smite (four level 5 spell slots doing 6D8 force damage), hexblade's curse (plus prof damage per hit, so +6 at level 20). If we're assuming one target.
With proficiency, maximum charisma, and the +1 from the improved pact weapon that's +12 to hit, so arguably they can justify taking the -5 to hit to get +10 damage. +7 is still pretty good.
Damage equals damage die plus GWM mod plus cha plus +1 bonus + cha necrotic + proficiency mod.
Damage with GWM active is 2(D10+10+5+1+5+6) + (D4+10+5+1+5+6) = 2D10 + D4 + 81 for their base damage per turn. Over 10 turns that's 20D10 + 10D4 + 810. Somewhere between 840 and 1050 damage. In addition the Hexblade can expend four level 5 spell slots to do 4(6D8) force damage which they should reserve until they roll a critical hit, which they will do on a 19 or 20 with the Hexblade's curse on their target.
Sure, this is only against one target per short rest, but it is pretty decent damage. If you do successfully hit the enemy with an Eldritch Smite it falls prone, and you gain advantage on any attacks you get to make on them before they get up, which is even better.
Expending one of your spell slots to cast Spirit Shroud, which would do an extra 2D8 radiant, necrotic, or cold damage on every attack made for a minute, which is 10 turns, so that's potentially another 6D8 damage per round or 60D8 total, that's significantly better than Eldritch Smite so worth expending one of your spell slots to get.
If I may, Hexblade with PAM/GWM and maximum charismas wielding a +1 Glaive with Thirsting Blade (extra attack) and Lifedrinker (+ charima bonus necrotic damage per attack) and eldritch smite (four level 5 spell slots doing 6D8 force damage), hexblade's curse (plus prof damage per hit, so +6 at level 20). If we're assuming one target.
With proficiency, maximum charisma, and the +1 from the improved pact weapon that's +12 to hit, so arguably they can justify taking the -5 to hit to get +10 damage. +7 is still pretty good.
Damage equals damage die plus GWM mod plus cha plus +1 bonus + cha necrotic + proficiency mod.
Damage with GWM active is 2(D10+10+5+1+5+6) + (D4+10+5+1+5+6) = 2D10 + D4 + 81 for their base damage per turn. Over 10 turns that's 20D10 + 10D4 + 810. Somewhere between 840 and 1050 damage. In addition the Hexblade can expend four level 5 spell slots to do 4(6D8) force damage which they should reserve until they roll a critical hit, which they will do on a 19 or 20 with the Hexblade's curse on their target.
Sure, this is only against one target per short rest, but it is pretty decent damage. If you do successfully hit the enemy with an Eldritch Smite it falls prone, and you gain advantage on any attacks you get to make on them before they get up, which is even better.
Expending one of your spell slots to cast Spirit Shroud, which would do an extra 2D8 radiant, necrotic, or cold damage on every attack made for a minute, which is 10 turns, so that's potentially another 6D8 damage per round or 60D8 total, that's significantly better than Eldritch Smite so worth expending one of your spell slots to get.
This is great theory crafting, but again, I think the point of OP's post was to show that Rangers are a viable martial class compared to the other martial classes. They weren't debating who has the highest DPR of the classes, just that Rangers don't actually suck like people seem to think. While a Hexblade Warlock can melee, they are not a martial class. They are a caster class. I would like to see more posts like in the general forum, though. This is super cool idea for a Warlock.
If I may, Hexblade with PAM/GWM and maximum charismas wielding a +1 Glaive with Thirsting Blade (extra attack) and Lifedrinker (+ charima bonus necrotic damage per attack) and eldritch smite (four level 5 spell slots doing 6D8 force damage), hexblade's curse (plus prof damage per hit, so +6 at level 20). If we're assuming one target.
With proficiency, maximum charisma, and the +1 from the improved pact weapon that's +12 to hit, so arguably they can justify taking the -5 to hit to get +10 damage. +7 is still pretty good.
Damage equals damage die plus GWM mod plus cha plus +1 bonus + cha necrotic + proficiency mod.
Damage with GWM active is 2(D10+10+5+1+5+6) + (D4+10+5+1+5+6) = 2D10 + D4 + 81 for their base damage per turn. Over 10 turns that's 20D10 + 10D4 + 810. Somewhere between 840 and 1050 damage. In addition the Hexblade can expend four level 5 spell slots to do 4(6D8) force damage which they should reserve until they roll a critical hit, which they will do on a 19 or 20 with the Hexblade's curse on their target.
Sure, this is only against one target per short rest, but it is pretty decent damage. If you do successfully hit the enemy with an Eldritch Smite it falls prone, and you gain advantage on any attacks you get to make on them before they get up, which is even better.
Expending one of your spell slots to cast Spirit Shroud, which would do an extra 2D8 radiant, necrotic, or cold damage on every attack made for a minute, which is 10 turns, so that's potentially another 6D8 damage per round or 60D8 total, that's significantly better than Eldritch Smite so worth expending one of your spell slots to get.
Uh…
Thats still less than Foe Slayer and waaaaay less economical. Your +7 to hit would reduce that overall damage from 105 (optimistically!) to .4 * 105 = around 41 Ave damage per round.
IIRC, Foe Slayer vs a Favored Enemy/Foe, Sharpshooter and Swift Quiver (one spell) vs AC 20 will do 50 Ave damage per round.
With HM instead of Swift Quiver… 35 Ave damage.
And it can do this all freaking day. At 600 ft range. With a regular bow.
I realize that people don’t realize that adding a +5 to your Hitroll is as good as it seems, primarily because people only multiply their average damage by the number of attacks per round, never considering that a hit roll of +7 at level 20 can be debilitating, and crits aren’t as common as they think.
For min-max potential:
A +3 Longbow, Swift Quiver, bracers of archery (+2 damage)… 77 damage per round against a foe with 20 AC. 52 damage per round against a foe with 25 AC.
Edited just to add: the Foe Slayer averages do not include any supplemental class bonuses like Beastmaster animals or extra attacks from subclasses. This is why I’m saying that Foe Slayer vastly outclasses almost any class’ typical damage potential.
I've heard the common sentiment across multiple platforms and over the years that Ranger DPR is solid...until around 11th-level, and then it falls off a cliff. I decided to run the numbers to see if that is, indeed, true. My original calculations can be found on this post and assume that the 11th-level Ranger, Fighter, and and Paladin are conserving all of their resources. I also did 15th-level subclass breakdown for the Ranger.
That said, I became curious about the average dpr of the Ranger at 20th-level including burst/spike damage and liberal use of resources, and how it compared to the Paladin and Fighter. I also threw in Barbarian and Rogue for good measure (will probably edit this post to include Monk damage once I run those calcs.) So, let's talk about 20th-level martial class dpr.
For 20th-level, I made a few assumptions:
1. All of these are assuming no multi-classing
2. Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger were all using GWM and PAM with a Glaive; Rogue is wielding two short-swords.
3. Despite this, only classes that can find a consistent way to offset the GWM attack roll penalty will be making use of GWM, since at 20th-level, a -5 to attack rolls is too steep a price to pay
4. Advantage in attack rolls averages out to +5.
5.Ranger is concentrating on Favored Foe/Foe Slayer unless otherwise stated. I ran the calcs for Hunter's Mark instead and accounted for variable Favored Enemy/Foe Slayer, but it just made things too messy, especially with action economy factored in. Favored Foe Slayer doesn't do as much damage as Hunter's Mark/Favored Enemy Slayer, but it is more consistent
6. All classes are going 'all out,' meaning they're expending their resources at every opportunity.
7. Barbarian, Paladin, and Fighter will be abusing the extra attack from PAM every round; Rogue will be dual-wielding short-swords but does not have TWF
8. Everyone is fighting a big gray sack of HP
9. Damage stats (Str, Dex, Wis, etc) are maxed out
10. All attacks are assumed to connect...provided there are no attack roll penalties (unless the class has a consistent way to offset the penalty)
I calculated the burst damage of all five classes over 1 round, 6 rounds, and 10 rounds. Why these benchmarks? By 20th-level, a Fighter gets two Action Surge uses per short rest, so assuming no rests, they get spent after round two. If a Paladin is Smiting on every attack, they get spent after round five. If a Ranger is using Nature's Veil every round, they get spent after round 6. Barbarians and Rogues don't have any resources to burn through, so their damage stays consistent. Round 1 DPR shows us how much damage they can do with bursts in a single round. Round 6 DPR shows us how much damage they can do while waiting for Nature's Veil to run out (Nature's Veil being the longest-lasting 'resource' in these calcs.) Round 10 dpr assumes they had four rounds of conserving resources between bursts, meaning that in these rounds we will see the lowest possible damage they can each deal.
Assuming one combat encounter lasts roughly ˜3 rounds, the first six rounds of combat will equal two combat encounters, while the first ten rounds will equal three and some change encounters. Also note that these 'rounds' can be broken down and separated with non-burst rounds (hence the 10-round calcs.) The ultimate math does not change. Note that 5th-Edition assumes a rough estimate of 6-8 encounters per day. At 3 rounds per encounter, that is about 18-24 rounds per day. But once all the classes have expended their resources, the damage begins to level off.
*Note: Most classes (except Ranger, but we'll get to that) get most of their power from their base class. So I made these calculations assuming only their base class features. There are some subclasses for these classes (Battlemaster; Vengeance Pally) whose damage can go higher than what's listed, but since their resources are not consistent among all subclasses of a given class, they were not taken into account.
Let's begin:
Barbarian- Barbarians are mercifully easy to calculate (unlike Fighters, Paladins, and especially Rangers.) I assumed they would be making three attacks every round while Raging and using Reckless Attack to give themselves consistent advantage.
With consistent advantage, they offset the GWM penalty and can thus abuse that feat with impunity. The damage calculations for the Barbarian ended up being 2(1d10+7+4+10) + (1d4+7+4)= 72.5
So in Round 1, the Barbarian is dealing 72.5 damage and since they don't expend any resources to do this, they can deal this damage consistently over six rounds and over 10 rounds.
Barbarian:
Round 1: 72.5
Round 6: 435
Round 10: 725
Note: Barbarian also has the highest HP ceiling and resistance to weapon damage, making them excellent tanks in addition to their impressive damage. This damage also does not take Brutal Critical into consideration.
Fighter- Fighter was sort of a nightmare to calculate because I was trying to account for the potential of short rests in between the first six rounds, to give it an edge. Your average Fighter has no way of granting themselves consistent advantage, so they will not be using GWM. Ultimately, I calculated the Fighter's DPR assuming only two Action Surges and then I calculated their DPR assuming six Action Surges (presumably they got short rests in between.) Then I found the median and that is what I used for their final numbers.
Fighters get to make 5 attacks per round with PAM. The math ends up being: 4(1d10+5) + (1d4+5)=49.5. When they Action Surge, however, the math goes up to 8(1d10+5) + (1d4+5)=91.5. Depending on how many short rests they get in-between, they will deal drastically more or drastically less damage over the course of an adventuring day. As stated, I took the median of a Fighter with two Action Surges and a Fighter with six Action Surges.
Fighter:
Round 1: 49.5 (91.5 Action Surge)
Round 6: 465
Round 10: 663
Paladin- Not quite as hard to calculate as Fighter or Ranger, but still annoying since I had to account for Divine Smite's depleting damage dice. Like with Fighter, Paladin doesn't have a consistent way to get Advantage for GWM, so I stuck to just PAM with them. With PAM, they're making three attacks per round, which means they're Smiting on three attacks per round. Going from strongest to weakest, that means Round 1 they're using two 5th-levels and a 4th-level Smite, Round 2 they use two 4th-levels and a 3rd-level Smite, and so on until they're spent. Assuming this, they get spent after five rounds. The damage calcs are 2(1d10+1d8+5) + (1d4+1d8+5) + [x]. X= Smite. In descending order, this means [x]= 17d8, 14d8, 11d8, 8d8, 6d8, and 0.
Paladin:
Round 1: 42 (118.5 Smite)
Round 6: 503.5
Round 10: 713.5
Note: Even after completely blowing through their spell slots, Paladins still have Lay on Hands for healing and three different always-on auras (Protection, subclass, Courage), so they can still support the combat even without Smiting
Rogue- Like the Barbarians, Rogues were easy to calculate. I took their short-sword attacks and added Sneak Attack. Since Rogues don't expend any resources, they can consistently do this damage over the course of one, six, and ten rounds. So that is 1d6+5 + 1d6 + 10d6= 47
Rogue:
Round 1: 47
Round 6: 282
Round 10: 470
Edit: Also, for fun, I went ahead and did Rogue calcs with Sharpshooter and a shortbow. Here are the results:
Rogue:
Round 1: 53.5
Round 6: 321
Round 10: 535
Higher damage for sure, but still not enough to increase its standing.
Note: Despite their comparatively low damage, Rogues have four skill expertises and reliable talent, making up for the lack of dpr with impressive non-combat utility
Ranger- Finally, we come to the Ranger. And boy this was a nightmare and a half to calculate. As stated, Rangers get most of their power from their subclasses, but the subclasses aren't uniform in the way they handle that power. some will do more damage than others and some will do damage more consistently than others. Some will skyrocket in damage under certain circumstances and plummet under others. I had to account for all of that. For instance, I had to account for a Hunter Ranger with Horde Breaker against only one target as well as a Hunter Ranger with Horde Breaker against three targets. And that's a big range right there. Because of this, some subclasses can actually shoot right past Barbarian and Paladin while others languish behind with Rogue. Please see my follow-up comment for Ranger damage breakdown by subclass, as it also contains the math used for the numbers below.
Rangers like to deal consistent damage, so unlike Paladins and Fighters that blow their resources each round, a Ranger with Favored Foe Slayer is able to add that damage to the target until the target is dead. Furthermore, Rangers get Nature's Veil*, which gives them invisibility and thus advantage on attack rolls, which allows them to proc GWM, but at the cost of their BA attack from PAM. So I calculated the first six rounds with just GWM and the last four with them switching over to just PAM. Y'know, because things weren't complicated enough. Nature's Veil also provides a defensive buff by imposing disadvantage on attack rolls against them, so they're more or less safe in terms of Favored Foe Slayer concentration, though they have access to six uses of Favored Foe Slayer per day and it sticks around until the target is dead, so even if they get hit, they can reapply it pretty consistently that I felt it was okay to include.
Ultimately, what I decided to do was similar to the Fighter's approach. I calculated the damage of each individual subclass and found the median, getting the final numbers.
*Nature's Veil was chosen over Hide in Plain Sight because of its more direct combat application, which is more relevant to us right now as we're calculating dpr.
Ranger:
Round 1: 69
Round 6: 416.5
Round 10: 645
Reminder: please see my follow-up comment for Ranger damage breakdown by subclass, as it also contains the math used for the numbers below.
Note: The above calculations assume only Nature's Veil and Favored Foe Slayer are being expended, meaning Ranger still has access to their entire spell-casting repertoire, as well as riders on every attack that vary from subclass to subclass, which were not included in the above. Furthermore, the above also does not take into account non-combat utility from Natural/Deft Explorer, Primeval/Primal Awareness, and other sources.
As you can see, Ranger's dpr is significantly better than the Rogue's but lags slightly behind Fighter. That being said, the Ranger's DPR isn't actually that far behind Fighters, and in ten rounds of combat, are within striking distance of the Fighter. Ultimately, Ranger keeps up with the other martials just fine. And none of this takes into account the Ranger's riders, spell-casting, or skills. Some subclasses, as we'll see below, can actually out-pace Fighter, Paladin, and even Barbarian over the course of 10 rounds, and more than keep up over the course of six. Overall, I'd say the Ranger is in a pretty comfortable place, nearly matching the Fighter's damage while also providing additional effects and some non-combat utility.
If anything, this has shown me that just because Rogues roll more damage dice, doesn't mean they do more actual damage. But again, this is not an indictment on the Rogue either. They more than make up for this in skill utility.
What am I saying with all of this? I'm saying that every martial class is good in its own way in and/or out of combat.
For subclass damage, let's keep some of the same assumptions as above:
1. GWM and PAM will be used whenever possible
2. Advantage amounts to +5 attack roll
3. Favored Foe Slayer is active unless otherwise stated
4. No multi-classing
5. Maxed damaging stats
6. Fighting big gray sack(s) of HP
7. All attacks are assumed to connect...provided there are no attack roll penalties (unless the class has a consistent way to offset the penalty)
I'll also repost the Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Rogue final numbers, as well as the Ranger median, for comparison's sake:
Round 1: Barbarian 72.5, Fighter 49.5 (91.5), Paladin 42 (118.5), Ranger 69, Rogue 47
Round 6: Barbarian 435, Fighter 465, Paladin 503.5, Ranger 423, Rogue 282
Round 10: Barbarian 725, Fighter 663, Paladin 713.5, Ranger 646.5, Rogue 470
Anyway, let's get into it.
Hunter: Already we're jumping into the deep end. Hunter is a class that excels at attacking multiple targets. It's single-target damage is not very impressive, but it's multi-attack makes it really strong. I decided to calculate the Hunter with Colossus Slayer against one target and against three targets (to proc Multi-Attack), and then also the Hunter with Horde Breaker against one target and against three targets. I used Nature's Veil in the first six rounds to proc GWM and PAM in the last four.
Colossus Slayer Single: 2(1d0+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 1d8= 55/1round, 330/6rounds, 500/10rounds
Colossus Slayer Three: 3(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 1d8= 75.5/1round, 453/6rounds, 665/10rounds
Horde Breaker Single: 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5)= 50.5/1round, 303/6rounds, 455/10rounds
Horde Breaker Three: 4(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5)= 86.5/1round, 519/6rounds, 735/10rounds
Calculating the median, we get:
Hunter 1 Round: 67
Hunter 6 Rounds: 401.5
Hunter 10 Rounds: 588.75 (rounded to 589)
Beast Master: Another complicated one. I calculated the damage from the regular Beast Master with a wolf companion as well as the damage for a Tasha Beast Master with each the beasts of the land, sea, and sky (damage for sea and sky is the same.) For the sake of my sanity, I went with the general consensus that the Tasha Beast Master lets you make two attacks as a Ranger and two more with the pet. Here's the thing, even if the Tasha Beast Master only allowed three attacks, PAM would give it four anyway. And the difference is literally just a d10 --> d4, which I didn't think was worth calculating separately. Also worth noting is that the Beast Master can abuse PAM because they can get a constant source of advantage from their pet (assuming flanking rules,) so they're the rare Ranger that can abuse PAM and GWM. And because of this, they don't need to use Nature's Veil at all, which means their damage actually remains consistent over the course of one round, six rounds, and ten rounds.
If anyone wants me to provide the calcs for Beast Masters without the flanking rules, please let me know, as I do have them. Anyway,
Beast Master (Wolf): (1d10+5+10) + (1d4+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 2(2d4+2+6)= 71.5/1r, 429/6r, 715/10r
Beast of the Land: 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 2(1d8+2+6) + 1d6 charging= 79/1r, 474/6r, 790/10r
Beast of the Sea/Sky: 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 2(1d6+2+6)= 73.5/1r, 441/6r, 735/10r*
*Note: Beast of the Sky's calculations are 2(1d4+3+6,) but they average out to the same amount
Beast Master Median:
1 Round: 74.5
6 Rounds: 448
10 Rounds: 746.5
Note: Beast Companions provide additional tactical benefits by having another body on the battlefield, as well as knock prone, grapple, and flyby in addition to damage.
Gloomstalker: Another difficult one. Because Dread Ambusher only lasts one round, I had to mimic my Fighter methodology for them. I calculated the damage assuming they had only one round of Dread Ambusher and then again assuming they had six. I also assumed they weren't getting their natural invisibility because it's situational, so these calcs were made with Nature's Veil.
So round 1 Gloomstalker math is 3(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 1d8= 75.5, whereas subsequent rounds it goes down to 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5)=38.5
Gloomstalker Round 1: 75.5
Gloomtalker Round 2+: 38.5
Gloomstalker 6 rounds (1 Dread Ambusher): 268
Gloomstalker 6 rounds (6 Dread Ambusher): 453
Gloomstalker 10 rounds (1 Dread Ambusher): 422
Gloomstalker 10 rounds (6 Dread Ambusher): 607
Gloomstalker Median:
1 Round: 57
6 Rounds: 360.5
10 Rounds: 514.5
Note: Gloomstalker is invisible in darkness, gets a bonus to their Initiative, and can reroll one missed attack per round as a reaction in addition to the damage.
Horizon Walker: I did this one a little differently. Instead of concentrating on Favored Foe Slayer, I had them concentrate on Haste. This takes out one of their spell slots, but still leaves them with 6 uses of Favored Foe Slayer for a protracted adventuring day. They also get up to eight chances to cast Haste, as well as Nature's Veil and teleportation, so losing concentration is really not very likely. Haste also lasts across ten rounds of combat. In addition, the average damage from Planar Warrior (2d8) is higher than a PAM attack, so I used that instead for when they ran out of Nature's Veils.
Horizon Walker Single-target: 3(1d10+5+10)= 61.5 or Horizon Walker Three Targets: 4(1d10+5+10)= 82
Horizon Walker Single: 61.5/1r, 369/6r, 531/6r
Horizon Walker Three: 82/1r, 492/6r, 696/10r
Horizon Walker Median:
1 Round: 71.5
6 Rounds: 430.5
10 Rounds: 613.5
Note: Horizon Walker also teleports 20-30ft (or 30-40ft with Haste) every round for free without messing with the action economy of the ranger in addition to the damage
Monster Slayer: Like all the ones before it, Monster Slayer's damage varies, this time depending on whether or not it can proc Slayer's Counter. At 20th-level, it should be getting this damage pretty regularly, but I still calculated it both with and without Slayer's Counter.
Without Slayer's Counter, the Monster Slayer math is 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 1d6= 54. Meanwhile, with Slayer's Counter, the go up to 3(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 2(1d6)= 68
Monster Slayer (no counter): 54/1r, 324/6r. 488/10r
Monster Slayer (with counter): 68/1r, 408/6r, 574/10r
Monster Slayer Median:
1 Round: 61
6 Rounds: 366
10 Rounds: 531
Note: Slayer's Counter serves as an opportunity attack, and a hit counts as an auto-success on a save (including concentration saves) in addition to the damage.
Fey Wanderer: Luckily (for my sanity) from here on out, things get more consistent. Like with Horizon Walker, I actually decided to dip into the Fey Wanderer's spell-casting for this one. By which I mean, I chose to use Summon Fey at 4th-level instead of taking the spell-free basic 3rd-level. Because I can use Summon Fey without concentration, it actually also allows me to keep Favored Foe Slayer. Without concentration, the Fey only lasts one minute, but that is essentially covering all 10 rounds, and it can still be summoned up to eight more times if it goes away (albeit weaker on four of those.) Furthermore, the Fey itself can also provide advantage via flanking, so the Fey Wanderer can actually proc GWM and still use PAM. With that in mind, here are the calcs:
2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + (1d4+5+10) + 2(1d6+3+4+1d6)= 96
Fey Wanderer:
1 Round: 96
6 Rounds: 576
10 Rounds: 960
Which is just...wow.
Even without flanking rules, the Fey Wanderer still puts out impressive numbers.
Fey Wanderer (no flanking):
1 Round: 82
6 Rounds: 492
10 Rounds: 770
Worth noting, however, is that the fey itself is really frail and prone to dying, in which case you'll have to spend additional turns re-summoning. Still, that's insane damage.
Note: The Summoned Fey also has 1/round teleportation and can provide one of the following effects in addition to the damage: advantage on its attack, magical darkness, or Charm/Beguiling Twist. In addition, it also provides all the tactical benefits of having another body on the battlefield.
Swarmkeeper: We keep the train of simplicity going. Swarmkeeper is probably the weakest of the Rangers in terms of damage, since it doesn't get any sort of 3rd subclass attack. Rather, all it gets is 1d8 at 11th-level from Gathered Swarm. This is okay though, because ultimately Swarmkeeper doesn't care about damage so much as area control. The calcs are 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + 1d8= 55
Swarmkeeper:
Round 1: 55
Round 6: 330
Round 10: 500
Note: Swarmkeeper can --and should-- forego even this damage in order to push/knock prone or slide itself into a better position instead. This battlefield control is what the Swarmkeeper is really all about; not the damage.
Drakewarden: Like Beast Master, but with fewer variables. PAM is wasted here, but the Drake does provide flanking advantage, so GWM is going to proc consistently, since it costs no resources to flank with the drake. Again, if you want the calcs without flanking, let me know. Calcs: 2(1d10+5+10) + (1d8+5) + (3d6+6) + 1d6= 70.5
Drakewarden:
1 Round: 70.5
6 Rounds: 423
10 Rounds: 705
Note: You can forego the advantage in favor of using the Drake as a mount. In addition, the Drake provides all the tactical benefits of having another body on the battlefield. Furthermore, the Drake grants a breath weapon attack you can choose to use instead. If that wasn't enough, the Drake grants a fly/swim speed. All of this in addition to the above damage.
God, I really hope I transcribed all the formulas correctly. I really don't want to have to go back and redo all my calculations again. Anyway, that's it. Feel free to discuss.
Nice.
And this is just damage. Utility is an entire other category that rangers lead unquestionably in the martial family.
Thanks for this post!
Post updated with Ranger subclass calcs!
If you really want to see some interesting Damage. Try calculating it out with Archery Fighting Style, Sharpshooter, a Long bow and Swift Quiver. They are a class that's actually likely through various means on top of the fighting style to mitigate at least some of the -modifier they get from Sharpshooter meaning they can make pretty fair use of it. And with Swift Quiver involved they are able to make 4 attacks a round (5 in certain circumstances such as being a beast master). It is strong and consistant in damage both overall and with growing damage potential in longer encounters. Though it does have the caveat that it doesn't fully kick in until level 17 since Swift Quiver is a 5th level spell. It's also not Hunter's Mark compatible after a certain point. But I don't think you used hunters mark in your calculations from what I can tell anyway so that doesn't really matter.
Swift Quiver is a lot of fun. It's my go-to 5th-level spell. Worth pointing out tho is that it conflicts with Hunter's Mark, Favored Foe Slayer, Nature's Veil, and Crossbow Expert (and gets in the way of Slayer's Prey and Planar Warrior.) Still a top-tier choice.
The reason I didn't factor it into my calculations is that, for the sake of uniformity, I gave a Glaive to everyone that could wield it. Barbarians and Paladins drop significantly if using ranged weapons and I wanted to mitigate variables where I could.
Paladins and Rangers aren't built for much if any Ranged. Much like the Monk. Ranged is a key part of many Ranger's kits however.
And As for Crossbow Expert. It only conflicts with one part And yet Doesn't Conflict with Crossbow Expert as the same time. I know that sounds slightly Strange but Let me Explain.
The only Part of Crossbow Expert that Swift Quiver conflicts with is the bonus action attack which is effectively a dual wielding feature and is restricted to only the hand crossbow to function. The Rest of the parts still work. However it doesn't conflict at all at the same time because Swift Quiver does not insist that it be used with a Bow. Just any ranged weapon that uses ammunition out of that Quiver. So it can just as easily be Bolts for a Crossbow as well. meaning that You can actually add Crossbow Expert in With Sharp Shooter and do the 4 to 5 shots with a Crossbow at the cost of an extra feat thanks to the first part of Crossbow Expert which removes the loading Property issue. Which makes Swift Quiver an outright upgrade to the bonus Action attack for anybody that does not want to dual wield hand crossbows or make a melee attack and a hand crossbow attack. Which no crossbow but the hand crossbow can actually make use of that bonus action attack anyway because all the rest are two handed. So you potentially increase the damage possibility even further since the Damage of a Heavy Crossbow is a 1d10 instead of 1d8 if you do want to make the increased investment.
I do Admit that i missed the Interaction with Favored Foe Slayer and that you were using it in your calculations to mention that does offset the math a little bit however.
I do actually agree that, if anything, my calcs for the Ranger don't take the whole package into account. I barely factored in it's spellcasting (certainly not the Conjure spells,) nor did I apply the BA Hide from Vanish -which would've been useful once they expended Nature's Veil, nor did I have them use weapons that they could actually abuse.
And yet even with all these factors working against them, I'd say their final numbers are still quite impressive when combined with their riders. So if anything, I'd argue this is a testament to how good the Ranger can be in battle.
This is true. The Reality is that All of the Martial classes for various reasons are Reasonably within range of each other. Even the Rogue with it's fairly unique High Variance, High Maximum, High Sustainability (aka High Risk, High Reward) style of martial damage can stay well within range of the various other classes. The monk Technically is just a bit lower than the fighter at level 20. But that's not factoring in the fact that their purpose in part is different from Damage or any of their abilities really. since they are basically doing the same damage but without the GWM involved and like the Ranger there can be some variance based upon subclass and even circumstances under which they can use their abilities.
It’s already proved by numbers that a Ranger in the hands of a seasoned player can be vastly superior to any other martial class in every pillar of the game — from levels 1 to 20.
You guys have literally broken a internet myth that blinds the community since 2016.
But it still persists regularly in various places... And there are a few more that I'd really like to break. But those ones are even more mired in sentiment against them.
Oh yeah. There are a ton of myths I'd like to disprove. Some of my favorites:
1. Just play a Valor Bard with Ranger skills and Magical Secrets: Swift Quiver- No. You're not. A Valor Bard with Swift Quiver and no way to grant itself consistent advantage for Sharpshooter is making 4(1d8+5)=38 per round. They also get no 3rd attack and no scaling damage die like Rangers do. For comparison, the median for the Ranger's damage is 69. On top of that, your Bard is concentrating on Swift Quiver and using its bonus action to shoot, so it can't use concentration Bard spells and can't even hand out inspiration. Hell, a Bard with Synaptic Static+Swift Quiver does 8d6 + 2(1d8+5)=47. For context, that's the same as a Rogue with Sneak attack and two short-swords. And again, the Ranger median is 69. So now you've wasted a Magical Secret on Swift Quiver, have to spend your bonus action making two ranged attacks (and thus can't give Bardic,) are using your concentration on making those two ranged attacks, and you still can't match the Ranger's median damage. At best, you match with the Rogue --who also lags behind Ranger. So...what do you get for all your trouble? Expertise on Ranger skills? I mean, congratulations, you're better than a Ranger that's out of their element, and just as good as a Ranger in their element (except not really because a Ranger Survival in Favored Terrain will yield better results than a Bard survival in a Ranger's Favored Terrain.) Congrats. Hope it was worth it. Note: I am not saying Bard is a bad class. I would never even dream of saying that. Bard's are honestly a top-tier class. But they make for terrible Rangers. Bards should be trying to be the best Bard they can be instead of trying to be shitty, off-brand Rangers.
2. Just play a Fighter with the Outlander background- What, exactly, does this accomplish? At best, you're about as good as a Ranger that's out of their element. Oh, and you can forage good (woohoo! One of the benefits of Natural Explorer.) A Ranger in their element runs circles around you. A Ranger with Deft Explorer and expertise in Survival also runs circles around you. A Ranger with Goodberry runs circles around you. And all of this while the Ranger is still allowed to pick a background that is actually interesting. As for damage, see my first post. The Fighter barely outpaces the Ranger in terms of dpr, and the Ranger makes up that difference with its riders, spellcasting, and non-combat utility. Note: Fighters are an excellent class. They just make bad Rangers. Let Fighters be Fighters and you'll get more out of them than trying to be shitty, off-brand Rangers (notice a pattern yet?)
3. Just play a Scout Rogue- I mean, sure. If you want to play Baby's First Ranger. Honestly, the more I think about it, the less I like the Scout. You get Expertise in Nature and Survival. Fantastic. You're now as good as the Ranger in its element (except, not really, because a successful Ranger Survival in Favored Terrain yields more benefits than a successful Rogue Survival in Ranger's Favored Terrain.) I guess you beat the Ranger out of its element in two skills, unless that Ranger takes Deft Explorer Expertise in one of them. Then you're only better in one skill until 14th-level when you get reliable talent. In exchange, you're losing out on Ranger spells, rider effects, and damage. Remember, a Ranger's median dpr is 69. A rogue's is 47. So by 20th-level, you do less damage, have no spells, and have to decide whether you want to proc Sneak Attack twice to catch up or leave yourself out in the open to get hit in the face by Tiamat's five heads (this and advantage on Initiative are the only consistent rider effect you can use, by the way. Go wild). Congrats. Hope your Expertise and Reliable Talent in two Ranger skills and 10ft of movement were worth it. Spoiler alert: they probably weren't. Note: Yet again, I am not saying Rogue is a bad class. On the contrary. Rogue is one of the best-designed and executed classes in the game. But they make terrible Rangers.
I'm sorry if I'm reviving a dead thread, but I need some help with your calculations. I'm doing my own theory crafting with numbers and trying to follow along with what you have here. I will start by saying I'm a complete newb. I do, however, know that when calculating dice, it's essentially (sides + 1)/2. So a 1d6 = 3.5. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Now, I'm trying to understand your first round here. It's assumed that Fey Spirits are already out and ready and were cast at level 4. So I get that. I'm trying to understand the attacks from the PC.
The damage as I understand it:
My questions are
Maybe I'm just not understanding, but wouldn't one round be like this if you had Favored Foe, Foe Slayer, Fey Spirits already summoned:
Am I doing this wrong or not thinking about it correctly?
Compare to a Sorlock with Hex + EB with agonizing Blast:
Round 1: BA Hex/ Action EB = 4 (1d10+1d6+5) = 56 damage
Round 2 (and thereafter): Action EB/ BA Quicken EB = 112 damage per round
This would be for any enemy not even against favored foe.
A sorcerer at that level could do this 10 times before converting any points and could convert 3 5th level (21 SP), 3 4th level (18 SP), 3 3rd level (15 points), 3 second level (9 points), and 4 1st level (6 points) for a total of 69 SP to do this an additional 34 times that day for a grand total of 54 times.
This means that on the rounds after Hex activation (which only requires a short rest to get back) they would be doing 6048 damage per day across any encounters with this combo.
I think OP's point was to compare single class martial to each other. Notice in their original posts, all numbers are based on a single class, not multi-class, and they're all martial classes.
Then CBE + SS Fighter:
Round 1: Action Shoot Handcrossbow: 4 (1d6+15) = 74; Action surge for second attack action: 74 damage then BA CBE attack: 18.5= Total damage 166.
Round 2: Action shoot handcrossbow: 4 (1d6+15) = 74 BA CBE attack: 18.5= 92 damage
If you take Fey touched and get hex add 4d6 per attack action or 14 damage
Favored Foe/Foe Slayer is one of the most potent damaging class features in the game. I created a spreadsheet to calculate the typical damage increase. It outpaces pretty much every other class in overall damage.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rGG3NrOCUEQmQs1_03_iFdL-K0nOfekqvooyclGvxVg/edit
If you maximize your Wisdom, the potential is absolutely nuts.
If I may, Hexblade with PAM/GWM and maximum charismas wielding a +1 Glaive with Thirsting Blade (extra attack) and Lifedrinker (+ charima bonus necrotic damage per attack) and eldritch smite (four level 5 spell slots doing 6D8 force damage), hexblade's curse (plus prof damage per hit, so +6 at level 20). If we're assuming one target.
With proficiency, maximum charisma, and the +1 from the improved pact weapon that's +12 to hit, so arguably they can justify taking the -5 to hit to get +10 damage. +7 is still pretty good.
Damage equals damage die plus GWM mod plus cha plus +1 bonus + cha necrotic + proficiency mod.
Damage with GWM active is 2(D10+10+5+1+5+6) + (D4+10+5+1+5+6) = 2D10 + D4 + 81 for their base damage per turn. Over 10 turns that's 20D10 + 10D4 + 810. Somewhere between 840 and 1050 damage. In addition the Hexblade can expend four level 5 spell slots to do 4(6D8) force damage which they should reserve until they roll a critical hit, which they will do on a 19 or 20 with the Hexblade's curse on their target.
Sure, this is only against one target per short rest, but it is pretty decent damage. If you do successfully hit the enemy with an Eldritch Smite it falls prone, and you gain advantage on any attacks you get to make on them before they get up, which is even better.
Expending one of your spell slots to cast Spirit Shroud, which would do an extra 2D8 radiant, necrotic, or cold damage on every attack made for a minute, which is 10 turns, so that's potentially another 6D8 damage per round or 60D8 total, that's significantly better than Eldritch Smite so worth expending one of your spell slots to get.
This is great theory crafting, but again, I think the point of OP's post was to show that Rangers are a viable martial class compared to the other martial classes. They weren't debating who has the highest DPR of the classes, just that Rangers don't actually suck like people seem to think. While a Hexblade Warlock can melee, they are not a martial class. They are a caster class. I would like to see more posts like in the general forum, though. This is super cool idea for a Warlock.
Uh…
Thats still less than Foe Slayer and waaaaay less economical. Your +7 to hit would reduce that overall damage from 105 (optimistically!) to .4 * 105 = around 41 Ave damage per round.
IIRC, Foe Slayer vs a Favored Enemy/Foe, Sharpshooter and Swift Quiver (one spell) vs AC 20 will do 50 Ave damage per round.
With HM instead of Swift Quiver… 35 Ave damage.
And it can do this all freaking day. At 600 ft range. With a regular bow.
I realize that people don’t realize that adding a +5 to your Hitroll is as good as it seems, primarily because people only multiply their average damage by the number of attacks per round, never considering that a hit roll of +7 at level 20 can be debilitating, and crits aren’t as common as they think.
For min-max potential:
A +3 Longbow, Swift Quiver, bracers of archery (+2 damage)… 77 damage per round against a foe with 20 AC. 52 damage per round against a foe with 25 AC.
Edited just to add: the Foe Slayer averages do not include any supplemental class bonuses like Beastmaster animals or extra attacks from subclasses. This is why I’m saying that Foe Slayer vastly outclasses almost any class’ typical damage potential.