I think MC is whatever but to me what doesn't make any sense is you have a ranger that goes to 20 but doesn't take any feats.
You leave Sharpshooter, CBE, Con resilient, all on the table for a small damage increase you only get when you are fighting your favored enemy? That's a terrible trade imo.
Better to upcast Conjure Animals and make your CON saves better.
The Internet personalities tell us the baseline at level 20 is 35.4 DPR. A PC focused on dealing damage should do at least that. The great DPR is 53.1. And the excellent DPR is 70.8. That is for sustained average damage per round over a long adventuring day with many (6-8), I’ll be it only medium to hard, combat encounters. I believe it is 8 combats at 4 rounds each between long rests with only 1 short rest. That’s 32 rounds of combat with only 1 short rest.
Btw I hate this metric personally. It heavily favors long rest and at will abilities.
The DMG says 6-8 per long with 2 short rests. This means no more than 2-3 encounters per short and 6-8 per long. This is kind of the way the balance is intended to work and I have always felt we should judge things by if they are "working as intended" or not.
This individuals that utilize this metric are pushing long rest abilities to their recommended limits but pushing short rest abilities far beyond the recomendation at 4 per short. This is 100% over the medium cap of 2 and 33% over the top cap of 3.
That might be the case, however usually is done this way due to their own experience and reports by their community of how many short rests they actually get to take. So while it's not correct in terms of how it's intended to be played, it's definitely more correct in terms of what you can expect.
That being said, OP compared things in a completely niche and unrealistic scenario to begin with anyway. Level 20 without multiclass? It's incredibly rare for people to play level 20 characters in the first place and I don't think I've ever actually witnessed a level 20 character without multiclass in 5e myself nor heard of them outside of purely theoretical debates. Assuming every character uses all their resources right away doesn't make much sense when comparing sustained damage output either since there are always things that you can burn through during your first encounter that increase the total DPR but then don't have available for the remaining encounters anymore. That's not what people mean when talking about DPR. Also there should be gimmicky builds with higher DPR available even without multiclassing. Like utilizing Spike Growth with spells/attacks that let you push/drag enemies through it all the time (grappling, crusher, Swarmkeeper, etc), utilizing summons properly or such. OP used extremely generic builds that mostly rely on attacking regularly and that's it.
Having over the course of 35 years achieved level 20 in a campaign 19 times and done so without multiclassing 7 times. I can tell you it exists and is not solely theoretical.
Campaigns that meet in person vs online statistically and historically tend to run longer and fall apart less.
As to "gimmicky builds with higher DPR without multiclassing" I can assure you, those also exist. Though in the instance of this, it is seemingly that you haven't yourself tried to acheive a level 20 character without multiclassing, so mayhaps you never did the full research or looking into how this can be achieved. In your "maybe like spike growth.." random thought, I will point out 5th level ranger spell "wrath of Nature" I will now point out the 3rd level spell "plant growth". I will then encourage you to think about how many trees you can have overgrown and be thick within the 100 ft radius of plant growth that you can then put your 60 foot wrath of nature cube. Magically difficult terrain where 4 feet of movement moves you 1 foot. Beginning of your turns 4d6 slashing damage per failed dex save per tree within 10 feet of targetS (emphasis on plural), the end of each of your turns during the spell a strength save on creature in it of your choice or its restrained, and a bonus action to throw rocks for nonmagical 3d8 damage and knocking prone on failed strength save.
"But you cannot always be in a forest with trees and vines..." Do you have pockets? Are you capable of carrying plants, bamboo, wyrmwood, acorns, seeds, vines, rocks, pebbles, etc?
Everyone likes to focus on "foe slayer" for level 20 rangers when it comes to DPR discussions. a lot of people sleep on their spells, or only look at hunter's mark or arrow related spells.
I know they exist. I didn't mean to say that they don't exist. Just that they are so rare that it practically doesn't matter to compare those as the vast majority of people/groups will never face that scenario. It's not a regular thing. That's like comparing the DPR against a very specific enemy that one may or may not face once every few years.
As for the gimmicky builds, you seem to have completely misunderstood me there. I KNOW they exist. It wasn't a question in the slightest. I just didn't bother to do the numbers in detail to make a 100% concrete statement since then I would also have to back it up and I really can't bother to do that for level 20 characters. My thoughts weren't random at all.
I'm honestly not even sure what the point of your post is. You're criticising me but all you really do is supporting the key statement of my post lol
Is this not summarizing this whole thread? or any of the DPR threads?
"I just didn't bother to do the numbers" good rule of thumb: do the numbers and post off that.
Overall you are looking at pretty niche application of damage boost which averages to about 16 points of extra damage and means you get to take no other feats as you need to max WIS and DEX.
You need to be fighting your favored enemy for one and if you take favored foe you can't concentrate on any better spells like Conjure Animals.
So grain of salt for sure.
Overall it's ok.... It's not great but it's good.
Also a quick reminder that my spreadsheet is better than the DRP Calculator for determining net benefit of Favored Enemy + Foe Slayer. I take in every combination of abilities and not the "I estimate..." from the other posters. Dark Revenant's numbers are simplistic and only consider estimates and assumptions - mine use hard calculated probabilities. Beware posts that look like they include all the variables but miss the mark.
Also your argument that "Overall you are looking at pretty niche application of damage boost which averages to about 16 points of extra damage and means you get to take no other feats as you need to max WIS and DEX" is irrelevant. The damage boost results in a higher DPR than any other similarly-equipped Fighter and the Wisdom boost applies higher DCs to Ranger spells so it's not niche at all.
But yeah, if you have a valid numbers-based argument I'm willing to see the analysis.
I think MC is whatever but to me what doesn't make any sense is you have a ranger that goes to 20 but doesn't take any feats.
You leave Sharpshooter, CBE, Con resilient, all on the table for a small damage increase you only get when you are fighting your favored enemy? That's a terrible trade imo.
Better to upcast Conjure Animals and make your CON saves better.
Two factual errors:
1) You would only need to leave CBE and Resilient Con off the table, and the tradeoff is a massive damage increase (not small as indicated).
2) Also, your Wisdom saves are better and your spell DCs are higher, which is an easy tradeoff.
I make no effort to say which build is better, but these arguments are demonstrably wrong.
Overall you are looking at pretty niche application of damage boost which averages to about 16 points of extra damage and means you get to take no other feats as you need to max WIS and DEX.
You need to be fighting your favored enemy for one and if you take favored foe you can't concentrate on any better spells like Conjure Animals.
So grain of salt for sure.
Overall it's ok.... It's not great but it's good.
Also a quick reminder that my spreadsheet is better than the DRP Calculator for determining net benefit of Favored Enemy + Foe Slayer. I take in every combination of abilities and not the "I estimate..." from the other posters. Dark Revenant's numbers are simplistic and only consider estimates and assumptions - mine use hard calculated probabilities. Beware posts that look like they include all the variables but miss the mark.
Also your argument that "Overall you are looking at pretty niche application of damage boost which averages to about 16 points of extra damage and means you get to take no other feats as you need to max WIS and DEX" is irrelevant. The damage boost results in a higher DPR than any other similarly-equipped Fighter and the Wisdom boost applies higher DCs to Ranger spells so it's not niche at all.
But yeah, if you have a valid numbers-based argument I'm willing to see the analysis.
I think MC is whatever but to me what doesn't make any sense is you have a ranger that goes to 20 but doesn't take any feats.
You leave Sharpshooter, CBE, Con resilient, all on the table for a small damage increase you only get when you are fighting your favored enemy? That's a terrible trade imo.
Better to upcast Conjure Animals and make your CON saves better.
Two factual errors:
1) You would only need to leave CBE and Resilient Con off the table, and the tradeoff is a massive damage increase (not small as indicated).
2) Also, your Wisdom saves are better and your spell DCs are higher, which is an easy tradeoff.
I make no effort to say which build is better, but these arguments are demonstrably wrong.
I am coming back to this after a while and I'm still not sure what your point was attempting to make at all....
There is no way a build without SS or CBE or even Conjure spell is doing less damage than a ranger getting a + 5 to attack once a turn with 2 attacks.
I don't even need math to prove this as it's so wrong it's not even worth addressing as even remotely accurate.
In the almost 10 years the edition has been out I have seen 0 times this build has even been remotely mentioned let alone seen as a top tier build.
Not only that but you have to wait until level 20 for it to even come online which alone makes it near worthless to 99.9999% of players.
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I think MC is whatever but to me what doesn't make any sense is you have a ranger that goes to 20 but doesn't take any feats.
You leave Sharpshooter, CBE, Con resilient, all on the table for a small damage increase you only get when you are fighting your favored enemy? That's a terrible trade imo.
Better to upcast Conjure Animals and make your CON saves better.
Is this not summarizing this whole thread? or any of the DPR threads?
"I just didn't bother to do the numbers" good rule of thumb: do the numbers and post off that.
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Also a quick reminder that my spreadsheet is better than the DRP Calculator for determining net benefit of Favored Enemy + Foe Slayer. I take in every combination of abilities and not the "I estimate..." from the other posters. Dark Revenant's numbers are simplistic and only consider estimates and assumptions - mine use hard calculated probabilities. Beware posts that look like they include all the variables but miss the mark.
Also your argument that "Overall you are looking at pretty niche application of damage boost which averages to about 16 points of extra damage and means you get to take no other feats as you need to max WIS and DEX" is irrelevant. The damage boost results in a higher DPR than any other similarly-equipped Fighter and the Wisdom boost applies higher DCs to Ranger spells so it's not niche at all.
But yeah, if you have a valid numbers-based argument I'm willing to see the analysis.
Two factual errors:
1) You would only need to leave CBE and Resilient Con off the table, and the tradeoff is a massive damage increase (not small as indicated).
2) Also, your Wisdom saves are better and your spell DCs are higher, which is an easy tradeoff.
I make no effort to say which build is better, but these arguments are demonstrably wrong.
I am coming back to this after a while and I'm still not sure what your point was attempting to make at all....
There is no way a build without SS or CBE or even Conjure spell is doing less damage than a ranger getting a + 5 to attack once a turn with 2 attacks.
I don't even need math to prove this as it's so wrong it's not even worth addressing as even remotely accurate.
In the almost 10 years the edition has been out I have seen 0 times this build has even been remotely mentioned let alone seen as a top tier build.
Not only that but you have to wait until level 20 for it to even come online which alone makes it near worthless to 99.9999% of players.