Was reading over some of the rogue archtypes and the level 3 bonus for assassin's reads:
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
So, from what I can tell...every target who's initiative lower than the assassin; when the assassin strikes at them they'll always get an advantage on them on every round. Is that correct? Or is it implying that it only occurs at the start (meaning round one), but not afterwards?
the ability only works on creatures that haven't taken an action yet for that entire combat. So, that's any creatures that the Assassin gets to attack during a surprise round and also on the 1st round of any combat, it's any creatures that roll lower on initiative than the assassin.
After the 1st round, the ability doesn't function.
the ability only works on creatures that haven't taken an action yet for that entire combat. So, that's any creatures that the Assassin gets to attack during a surprise round and also on the 1st round of any combat, it's any creatures that roll lower on initiative than the assassin.
After the 1st round, the ability doesn't function.
I would disagree on parts of your answer. The ability says "You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet." So it is not based on another character taking an action, but rather a turn. When you are surprised you still take a turn, you just don't do anything on that turn. The assassin would only benefit on the first turn, no others.
Except the following from the sage advice compedium:
If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised. In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initia.......
Do we take the words "in effect..." as a ruling here?
Ability - Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
From the Sage Advice - A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends
Key being "until its first turn ends".A surprised creature still takes its turn.
Following the "in effect" literally would contradict other ruling in the same paragraph. Additionally, if you skipped your first turn and never took a first turn, then you would never stop being surprised. You have to end your first turn to stop being surprised.
There's a lot of stuff that has to line up just right to get this feature to work. For the first round of combat, the DM has to be diligent in tracking the enemy's conditions.
(1) Everyone roll initiative normally. (2) Determine if anyone has the surprised condition. This is usually a comparison between the party's Dexterity (stealth) rolls and the enemy's Passive Perception or Wisdom (perception) roll if the enemy was actively searching for the party prior to combat. The surprised condition is sometimes tough to apply because it usually requires that either the entire, or at least half, the party outroll the enemy's perception ability. (3) Resolve turns in order from highest initiative to lowest. Someone who is surprised still takes his turn; however, because he has the surprised condition he cannot take actions, reactions, or move during this first turn. Then he no longer has the surprised condition after his turn ends.
So, when a Rogue uses the assassinate feature the DM needs to check which characters were surprised during the step 2 mentioned above. In light of this, if the rogue is somehow at the bottom of initiative, then they won't be able to use the assassinate feature against anyone. If the rogue is at the top of initiative then they will have advantage on their attack rolls for their turn; if they use their attack against a creature who has the surprised condition, then the critical hit aspect of the feature would also apply.
Personal experience:
A party of 4 infiltrated a hobgoblin stronghold. Moving through the sewer system, the group quietly emerges from it into an antechamber just outside the hobgoblin overlord's main quarters. The group plots an ambush. There are two guards accompanying the overlord. The group tells the DM they are going to attempt to stealthily move from the antechamber, through the overlord's quarter's shadows, and get into position for their ambush. "Stealth checks, please." says the DM. Rogue: 20 | Fighter: 15 | Cleric: 13 | Sorcerer: 13
The party sneaks into the room, the hobgoblins suspect nothing. When the group gets into their desired position, they attack. "Roll initiative." Rogue: 16 | Sorcerer: 12 | Cleric: 10 | Fighter: 8 Hobgoblin Overlord: 17 | Hobgoblin Guards: 14
The DM determines that all of the Hobgoblins have the surprised condition. Their passive perception is 10, and the group stealth checks surpassed their detection. However, the Hobgoblin Overlord's initiative is highest... It takes a moment, but suddenly the overlord smells the rats in his room, but he's too late. His turn is over. Now it's the rogue's turn.
From this point, if the rogue wishes to utilize his assassinate feature, she'd have to target one of the two guards with her attack action. The hobgoblin overlord was surprised at first, but he took his turn (his condition made it so he couldn't take any actions, reactions, or move) so now the condition has ended. It's unfortunate really--we know the rogue wanted to try and take out the overlord in a single strike, but today, the dice decided otherwise.
The surprised condition is sometimes tough to apply because it usually requires that either the entire, or at least half, the party outroll the enemy's perception ability.
Hey there,
Was reading over some of the rogue archtypes and the level 3 bonus for assassin's reads:
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
So, from what I can tell...every target who's initiative lower than the assassin; when the assassin strikes at them they'll always get an advantage on them on every round. Is that correct? Or is it implying that it only occurs at the start (meaning round one), but not afterwards?
Hi there,
the ability only works on creatures that haven't taken an action yet for that entire combat. So, that's any creatures that the Assassin gets to attack during a surprise round and also on the 1st round of any combat, it's any creatures that roll lower on initiative than the assassin.
After the 1st round, the ability doesn't function.
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No, the first part of Assassinate is meant to work only when the targets have not taken the turn in the entire combat, not on the single round.
Thanks for clearing that up!
http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium.pdf
Except the following from the sage advice compedium:
If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised. In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initia.......
Do we take the words "in effect..." as a ruling here?
Ability - Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
From the Sage Advice - A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends
Key being "until its first turn ends".A surprised creature still takes its turn.
Following the "in effect" literally would contradict other ruling in the same paragraph. Additionally, if you skipped your first turn and never took a first turn, then you would never stop being surprised. You have to end your first turn to stop being surprised.
There's a lot of stuff that has to line up just right to get this feature to work. For the first round of combat, the DM has to be diligent in tracking the enemy's conditions.
(1) Everyone roll initiative normally.
(2) Determine if anyone has the surprised condition. This is usually a comparison between the party's Dexterity (stealth) rolls and the enemy's Passive Perception or Wisdom (perception) roll if the enemy was actively searching for the party prior to combat. The surprised condition is sometimes tough to apply because it usually requires that either the entire, or at least half, the party outroll the enemy's perception ability.
(3) Resolve turns in order from highest initiative to lowest. Someone who is surprised still takes his turn; however, because he has the surprised condition he cannot take actions, reactions, or move during this first turn. Then he no longer has the surprised condition after his turn ends.
So, when a Rogue uses the assassinate feature the DM needs to check which characters were surprised during the step 2 mentioned above. In light of this, if the rogue is somehow at the bottom of initiative, then they won't be able to use the assassinate feature against anyone. If the rogue is at the top of initiative then they will have advantage on their attack rolls for their turn; if they use their attack against a creature who has the surprised condition, then the critical hit aspect of the feature would also apply.
Personal experience:
A party of 4 infiltrated a hobgoblin stronghold. Moving through the sewer system, the group quietly emerges from it into an antechamber just outside the hobgoblin overlord's main quarters. The group plots an ambush. There are two guards accompanying the overlord. The group tells the DM they are going to attempt to stealthily move from the antechamber, through the overlord's quarter's shadows, and get into position for their ambush. "Stealth checks, please." says the DM.
Rogue: 20 | Fighter: 15 | Cleric: 13 | Sorcerer: 13
The party sneaks into the room, the hobgoblins suspect nothing. When the group gets into their desired position, they attack. "Roll initiative."
Rogue: 16 | Sorcerer: 12 | Cleric: 10 | Fighter: 8
Hobgoblin Overlord: 17 | Hobgoblin Guards: 14
The DM determines that all of the Hobgoblins have the surprised condition. Their passive perception is 10, and the group stealth checks surpassed their detection. However, the Hobgoblin Overlord's initiative is highest... It takes a moment, but suddenly the overlord smells the rats in his room, but he's too late. His turn is over. Now it's the rogue's turn.
From this point, if the rogue wishes to utilize his assassinate feature, she'd have to target one of the two guards with her attack action. The hobgoblin overlord was surprised at first, but he took his turn (his condition made it so he couldn't take any actions, reactions, or move) so now the condition has ended. It's unfortunate really--we know the rogue wanted to try and take out the overlord in a single strike, but today, the dice decided otherwise.