just found out something that I want to throw out there. Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes introduced us to the Star Spawn. I think that the Star Spawn Mangler might be a little low challenge rating for its possible damage output. The average damage per turn might be fine, but the burst damage (especially in ambush situations) is gigantic!
I haven't fully ran the numbers on it, but if we look at the table in the DMG and compare it to the SSM:
Proficiency modifier seems to be +3. It seems to be proficient with Dex and Con saving throws, which add up correctly. This would put it at CR 5-8
AC = 14. This would put it at CR 4
HP = 71. This would put it at CR 1.
Attack bonus = +7. This would put it at CR 8-10
Damage/Round: This is the big gamechanger. In a "normal" turn, it would deal an average of 15 damage per attack, which it has two. With a +7 modifier it is safe to say that on average at least one attack hits in a regular turn. So average damage per round is 15. This would put it at CR 2.
HOWEVER, everything points to this creature not fighting fairly, so it will have full advantage as often as he gets it. I calculated that in a turn on which it has advantage (which is rather easy with his Hide bonus action, 40 climb speed and ability to move without opportunity attacks every other turn, it deals a whopping average 90 damage (6 times an attack with advantage at +7 will hit most if not all characters up to level 5 or even higher, each attack dealing an average 15 dmg of which 7 psychic). This is the damage rating of a CR 14 monster. The max damage without critting (which you have a fair chance of doing at 6 attacks with advantage) is a whopping 144, a CR 24 (!!!) damage output.
I might have the numbers wrong, but this seems to me as the most deadly CR 5 creature out there, mostly because at Int 11, they are more than likely to recognise situations to set themselves up for full advantage assaults whenever they can; use movement to close in from stealth, use Flurry of Claws to maul target to ribbons, and without provoking opportunity attacks they dive for cover until it recharges (at 4+ that should be every other turn on average).
Yes, it is somewhat fragile once you grab it, which lowers his CR, but I mean... this is a party wipe waiting to happen.
Defensive CR first, because that's easier. 71 HP. Not enough damage resistances or immunities to be relevant. Condition immunities are always irrelevant. Not enough saving throw proficiencies to be relevant. AC 14 puts it at defensive CR 1, but I could see bumping it up to defensive CR 2 or even 3.
Now for offensive CR, which is based on average damage per round over three rounds, assuming that all attacks hit and deal average damage. Each attack deals 15.5 damage. It can make 10 attacks over three rounds if Flurry of Claws doesn't recharge. That's 155/3, or 52, damage per round, rounded to the nearest whole number. Adjusted for an effective attack bonus or +9 or +10, that's offensive CR 9, for a net CR 5 or 6.
Given that some of the attacks from Flurry of Claws will likely be wasted due to the target's demise, I'm quite willing to believe CR 5, but bear in mind that it'll probably down the highest-HP party member with a lower initiative roll than it and then inflict a few death saving throw failures on the first round of combat. Then die instantly, of course.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
That's not how that table works. You use the CR from the HP column and then adjust it by 1 for every 2 extra AC the monster has over the value in the table. An AC of 14 is only 1 point higher than the 13 AC listed for a CR 1 creature, so the Mangler's defensive CR stays at 1.
Attack bonus = +7. This would put it at CR 8-10
Damage/Round: This is the big gamechanger. In a "normal" turn, it would deal an average of 15 damage per attack, which it has two. With a +7 modifier it is safe to say that on average at least one attack hits in a regular turn. So average damage per round is 15. This would put it at CR 2.
Again, that's not how the table works. You start with the damage/round value and then adjust the offensive CR for every 2 points of difference between the monster's attack bonus and the attack bonus for that row. Also, the damage/round column assumes all attacks hit.
Since the Mangler has variable damage, we have to estimate its damage/round based on its average over 3 turns. It's unlikely to use Flurry of Claws more than once during that time. If you assume it deals psychic damage with every attack, it'll deal (15 * (6 + 2 + 2))/3 = 50 damage/round. That corresponds to CR 6 (although it's only 1 point short of CR 7). Its attack bonus isn't 2 points higher than the +6 listed for that table, so it once again stays the same.
So, by the numbers, the average of its CRs is 3.5 or 4 depending on the offensive CR you used. So, it's actually rated higher than the guidelines would suggest.
HOWEVER, everything points to this creature not fighting fairly, so it will have full advantage as often as he gets it. I calculated that in a turn on which it has advantage (which is rather easy with his Hide bonus action, 40 climb speed and ability to move without opportunity attacks every other turn, it deals a whopping average 90 damage (6 times an attack with advantage at +7 will hit most if not all characters up to level 5 or even higher, each attack dealing an average 15 dmg of which 7 psychic). This is the damage rating of a CR 14 monster.
But it can't sustain that damage output.
The max damage without critting (which you have a fair chance of doing at 6 attacks with advantage) is a whopping 144, a CR 24 (!!!) damage output.
The max damage is irrelevant, because you're not going to see 12 die roll the max number. In fact, the more dice you roll, the more the results will tend towards the average.
Yes, it is somewhat fragile once you grab it, which lowers his CR, but I mean... this is a party wipe waiting to happen.
There's a very simple solution to fighting a mangler: have a light source. You can't hide in plain sight, and it has no ranged attacks. With the defensive capabilities of only a CR 1 monster, it's not going to take long to kill.
Please prove me wrong :)
Don't get too caught up in the numbers. CR is a heuristic. It's not an exact science, and playtesting is still necessary. WotC playtests everything that's put in a book, so it's very rare that they'd be wrong by a huge margin.
Don't get too caught up in the numbers. CR is a heuristic. It's not an exact science, and playtesting is still necessary. WotC playtests everything that's put in a book, so it's very rare that they'd be wrong by a huge margin.
Thank you. Though I'm still a bit hesitant in using this little beasty, at least I'm a bit more informed on how the DMG table works. I've never made a creature so I was confused. You've been a great help :)
Hi guys,
just found out something that I want to throw out there. Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes introduced us to the Star Spawn. I think that the Star Spawn Mangler might be a little low challenge rating for its possible damage output. The average damage per turn might be fine, but the burst damage (especially in ambush situations) is gigantic!
I haven't fully ran the numbers on it, but if we look at the table in the DMG and compare it to the SSM:
Proficiency modifier seems to be +3. It seems to be proficient with Dex and Con saving throws, which add up correctly. This would put it at CR 5-8
AC = 14. This would put it at CR 4
HP = 71. This would put it at CR 1.
Attack bonus = +7. This would put it at CR 8-10
Damage/Round: This is the big gamechanger. In a "normal" turn, it would deal an average of 15 damage per attack, which it has two. With a +7 modifier it is safe to say that on average at least one attack hits in a regular turn. So average damage per round is 15. This would put it at CR 2.
HOWEVER, everything points to this creature not fighting fairly, so it will have full advantage as often as he gets it. I calculated that in a turn on which it has advantage (which is rather easy with his Hide bonus action, 40 climb speed and ability to move without opportunity attacks every other turn, it deals a whopping average 90 damage (6 times an attack with advantage at +7 will hit most if not all characters up to level 5 or even higher, each attack dealing an average 15 dmg of which 7 psychic). This is the damage rating of a CR 14 monster. The max damage without critting (which you have a fair chance of doing at 6 attacks with advantage) is a whopping 144, a CR 24 (!!!) damage output.
I might have the numbers wrong, but this seems to me as the most deadly CR 5 creature out there, mostly because at Int 11, they are more than likely to recognise situations to set themselves up for full advantage assaults whenever they can; use movement to close in from stealth, use Flurry of Claws to maul target to ribbons, and without provoking opportunity attacks they dive for cover until it recharges (at 4+ that should be every other turn on average).
Yes, it is somewhat fragile once you grab it, which lowers his CR, but I mean... this is a party wipe waiting to happen.
Please prove me wrong :)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Defensive CR first, because that's easier. 71 HP. Not enough damage resistances or immunities to be relevant. Condition immunities are always irrelevant. Not enough saving throw proficiencies to be relevant. AC 14 puts it at defensive CR 1, but I could see bumping it up to defensive CR 2 or even 3.
Now for offensive CR, which is based on average damage per round over three rounds, assuming that all attacks hit and deal average damage. Each attack deals 15.5 damage. It can make 10 attacks over three rounds if Flurry of Claws doesn't recharge. That's 155/3, or 52, damage per round, rounded to the nearest whole number. Adjusted for an effective attack bonus or +9 or +10, that's offensive CR 9, for a net CR 5 or 6.
Given that some of the attacks from Flurry of Claws will likely be wasted due to the target's demise, I'm quite willing to believe CR 5, but bear in mind that it'll probably down the highest-HP party member with a lower initiative roll than it and then inflict a few death saving throw failures on the first round of combat. Then die instantly, of course.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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That's not how that table works. You use the CR from the HP column and then adjust it by 1 for every 2 extra AC the monster has over the value in the table. An AC of 14 is only 1 point higher than the 13 AC listed for a CR 1 creature, so the Mangler's defensive CR stays at 1.
Again, that's not how the table works. You start with the damage/round value and then adjust the offensive CR for every 2 points of difference between the monster's attack bonus and the attack bonus for that row. Also, the damage/round column assumes all attacks hit.
Since the Mangler has variable damage, we have to estimate its damage/round based on its average over 3 turns. It's unlikely to use Flurry of Claws more than once during that time. If you assume it deals psychic damage with every attack, it'll deal (15 * (6 + 2 + 2))/3 = 50 damage/round. That corresponds to CR 6 (although it's only 1 point short of CR 7). Its attack bonus isn't 2 points higher than the +6 listed for that table, so it once again stays the same.
So, by the numbers, the average of its CRs is 3.5 or 4 depending on the offensive CR you used. So, it's actually rated higher than the guidelines would suggest.
But it can't sustain that damage output.
The max damage is irrelevant, because you're not going to see 12 die roll the max number. In fact, the more dice you roll, the more the results will tend towards the average.
There's a very simple solution to fighting a mangler: have a light source. You can't hide in plain sight, and it has no ranged attacks. With the defensive capabilities of only a CR 1 monster, it's not going to take long to kill.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature