Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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I would like some clarification. In the 2024 version of Druid Wild Shape it says you take on the Beast's stat block but retain several things such as HP. One of the items listed are feats.
If you are retaining Feats how do feats that provide attribute bonuses handled?
For example, let's say the Druid has the Charger Feat and transforms into a black bear. While improved dash and charge attack are pretty clear the feat also states it raised either Str or Dex by 1 up to 20. Woul dthat mean the Black Bear now has a str of 16 or does it stay at 15?
I don't believe you would really be game imbalancing to allow it and it's implied based on the order of exceptions. However a rules clarification might be nice to avoid arguments,
Ty
-Doc
While you do maintain the benefits of your feats while wild-shaped, the intent is that that does not include the ability increase granted by your feats. Essentially, ability score increases granted by feats are instantaneous effects, not ongoing abilities like the majority of other attributes granted by feats.
Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to find this perfectly spelled out anywhere in the rules, but it is definitely the intent. It probably should be spelled out somewhere, as there are other benefits of some feats - such as the climbing speed granted by the athlete feat - that are also instantaneous effects granted to your character that are meant to carry over to wildshape, but I don't believe it is.
All that said, it - as you say - wouldn't be all that game breaking to allow it. So if a DM wants to, probably no real harm done.
Not sure how them saying explicitly you "you retain your feats" means they intend you to not keep your feats?
Speaking personally, I've allowed ASI to apply to Wildshapes since 2014. Because animals are "physically capable" of having ASIs. This 2024 version is even more explicit. You KEEP your feats.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
As far as I understand the rules, we don't need to recalculate ability scores when Wild Shaped.
Also, I found a similar thread about this topic: Do you get your ASI in Wildshape?
That's what I was thinking, but the 2024 specifically calls for feats.
2014 does not mention feats being kept:
"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature."
While 2024 says
" Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast’s stat block, but you retain your creature type; Hit Points; Hit Point Dice; Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; class features; languages; and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature."
And as Jaysburn mentions earlier this should probably be spelled out.
The thing is, 2024 wild shape calls out both keeping feats, but at the same time calls out replacing stats. Since those things are incompatible, you have to come to some conclusion. I am always of the opinion that you never have to recalculate things on the fly for the block, either the things on the block replace your stats or not.
With that being said, D&D beyond seems to agree. My level 4 moon druid with crusher (+1 str) has a black bear form in its wild shape extras that shows mental ability scores that match my character's, but still a 15 strength. that 15 strength is the same as a regular black bear.
Thank you for checking it!
It is still only circumstantial evidence, as many of the more complicated rules interactions fail to function properly in the D&D beyond character sheets. I realize it would be much harder to check for feats for str, dex, and con, and apply those to the stat block than it is to just replace int, wis, and cha.
But in the mean time, the easiest interpretation already fits with what happens on your sheet, if you want to actually be able to use the tool.
Thanks Wolf, I as going to mention that as well; if it was the intent, DDB would be programmed to make it happen automatically, which it doesn't. I feel like it's just the sort of thing that's such a hold over from older editions, and staple of how wild shape has always worked, that they didn't think of the possibility of people wanting to add their ability score improvements granted by feats.
Which is unfortunate, because with the changes to feats all improving ability scores - and especially with the standard ASI now being a feat in and of itself - it really could've used some clarification. Maybe we'll get an errata at some point.
And again, imagine what happens if the feat did apply: you'd have to update the strength, update the bonus, determine whether the attacks use that ability (which means not only figuring out what stat each attack is made with -- which isn't written in the block -- but also figuring out if there are any unaccounted bonuses), then apply the change to the attack.
That is a lot to do without any rules guidance and on the fly. The biggest problem is that while most beasts seem to attack with strength, some don't and none actually tell you.
Or just calculating the monster's HP when its CON increases.
Well yeah, I considered changes in con too, but since the new wild shape just gives you your druid level in THP, I didn't figure that con matters at all.
What about magic items that set your stats. Would an Amulet of Health set your wild shape Con to 19. No hp change since Wild Shape uses your hp but would the new form have a Con of 19?
This really feels like an oversight in the rules. To me, the intention is that the stats match the stat block and the features of the feat carry over. But there's a solid argument to be said that stat bonus is a feature of the feat, so it's a DM call until we get official clarification. At my table, I wouldn't apply the stat bonus.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
But again, some worn equipment, like the various belts of giants strength, have dubious interactions with forms anyway. It is not shown and sometimes difficult to determine what else changes when a monster's statistics change. Do you get to change the attack bonus? Are you even sure it is Str based? Do you get to keep any hidden bonuses? It is a bag of questions that I wish they'd just answered by keeping the template druid forms. But this game was built on popularity contest, rather than on good rule design.
I don't think that Stat bonus should count as they are applied to the character and then those stats are replaced by the Beast stats in that order.
But ASI is now an actual Feat instead of a separate thing all on it's own and all but Origin Feats provide a Stat increase as part of the benefit, so I could see how some DM's might allow them to carry over based on the way the rule is written. I don't believe that to be RAI though.
It also helps that Druids no longer need calculate anything "on the fly" since they have to pick all the forms that they know in advance. It would not be hard to do the calculations well ahead of time.
Sure, as long as you know what to do. That isn't always clear and there isn't even the bare minimum of explanation for it in the rules. I think that is the biggest issue I have with it; it is a complicated enough task that I think there should be something in the rules explaining it.
Oh boy, I didn't even notice ASI is a feat. See I was thinking 2014 where ASI was the standard and feats were optional. So it made sense those wouldn't carry over. But now if you take an ASI and it doesn't carry over then you've create an almost trap like choice.
"Here take this feat but when you use your core class ability you don't get to have it. " When I read the new Wild Shape I interpreted RAI that feats were included in your new form because they are both rare and a costly investment to just shut off most of the time.
Even though it would take more work, I am begining to think more and more that those stats should carry over. I mean consider that if you took Druid to level 20. You would hvae 4 feats and 1 epic feat. That would mean 20-25% of your character choice and investment is ignored since you spend most but not all of your time shapeshifted.
I also have a feeling we are going to see more magic items that are druid friendly. They officially added wraps for monks and Tasha's already has tattoos like Eldritch Claw. Older editions has special ironbark armors that would transform with you.
Oh well time will tell. But I think when I run my next 2024 campaign I will let it carry over with a caveat. "For the interest of time, if we don't have your form precaclulated we will run with the base stat block." My thought is they made druid have a limited number of forms, so I makes sense we could save the customized ones for that character as needed.
When I play, I acquiess the the DM, but be certain to ask.
Well do keep in mind that Ability Score Increases granted through feats - be it the ASI feat itself or otherwise - not carrying over only matter if they're taken in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are not replaced by the beast's, so any increases to those you have are maintained, as you use your own stats for them instead.
Since Druid's main ability is Wisdom, typically most of your feats are likely geared towards that, so you will still "get to have it" while using your core class ability.
It's not particularly common for Druids to take feats that increase their physical ability scores, especially Strength, which would truly be the main ability you would benefit from stacking with a wild shape form.
Edit: And also don't forget it's only the Ability Score Increase portion of a (non ASI) feat that doesn't carry over; you still maintain all other benefits of the feat. If you took the ASI feat in a physical ability, that's a bummer, but honestly, has any druid ever taken a straight ASI in Strength?
Oh I agree. It would be a little odd to take Str Asi for a Druid. But not for Dex or Con. Dex equates to AC but Con equates to HP and concentration saves. So I can see a druid taking these as circle of the Moon. And circle of the Moon doesn't absolutley need to jack up their Wisdom like other druids. Given they can burn spell slots to wild shape imagine a Moon Druid with a set up like Charger, Grappler, Crusher, Speedy Tavern Brawler. The druid takes a big strength based form all those points of str or dex would mean a lot for that kind of build. Basically a battle field controller moving the enemy around through slams and bashes or even grabbing and running with them. Definately an outthere build but I don't see it game breaking for them to garner that +1 or 2 from stats.
But again this is a build where the player is really digging hard into shapechange combat/control