There is something I wonder about, and that's "When a spell you cast..." in contrast to "When you cast a spell". While with the latter grammatical construct 'cast' is usually being interpreted as present tense, but with the former constellation, it could technically also be past tense (to cast - cast - cast). There is no 'casted' conjugation, as this is an irregular verb.
My question therefore is. Can it be that this can indeed seen as both present and past tense in regards to ruling?
Practical example:
Spellfire Adept: "Once per turn, when a spell you cast deals radiant damage..." in conjunction with the spell Holy Weapon: "As a bonus action on your turn you can dismiss this spell and cause... 4d8 radiant damage..." While it is a dismissal, and probably on a later turn, it still damage dealt by a spell that I cast (past tense).
Or Sunbeam: "You can create a new line of radiance as your action on any turn until the spell ends."
Technically speaking, any successive line of radiance on a later turn it is radiant damage dealt by a spell I cast, when 'cast' is interpreted as past tense.
There is something I wonder about, and that's "When a spell you cast...". While usually 'cast' is being interpreted as present tense in this constellation, it could technically also be past tense (to cast - cast - cast). There is no 'casted' conjugation, as this is an irregular verb.
My question therefore is. Can it be that this can indeed seen as both present and past tense in regards to ruling? [...]
Under my interpretation, the phrase "'When you cast..." (found in different feats or features) is resolved at the moment you cast the spell, so it uses the present tense.
A similar example is the Careful Spell Metamagic option. It should affect Saving Throws made when the spell is cast, not on later turns.
When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force.
While not official ruling, this is from the Dev using Cloudkill as an example:
@quadhund Just my monthly ask about whether Careful Spell can be used with Cloudkill? @JeremyECrawford Careful Spell is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to affect saving throws made that turn.
That would apply if "When you cast a spell...", and "When a spell you cast..." was seen as the exact same grammatical construct. If so, why not staying with "When you cast a spell" in all descriptions?
That would apply if "When you cast a spell...", and "When a spell you cast..." was seen as the exact same grammatical construct. If so, why not staying with "When you cast a spell" in all descriptions?
Because there is a grammatical distinction between the two phrases. "When you cast a spell" is a subordinate adverbial clause where the subject is you and the verb is cast. "When a spell you cast deals damage" is a subordinate adverbial clause where the subject is a spell that has the finite-verb clause "you cast" serving as an adjective modifying "spell" and the main verb is deals. Trying to compare the word "cast" in both situations makes no sense because they serve different grammatical functions. One is the main verb of an adverbial clause, and the other is the main verb of adjectival clause in an adverbial clause. That grammatical distinction makes it so that when a spell you cast and are concentrating on deals damage on subsequent turns has the extra effect whereas the other does not because you are not casting the spell that turn.
TLDR: comparing the tense of cast in these two clauses makes no sense because they serve as verbs in different types of clauses.
But that would mean you can very well use the benefit of i.E. Spellfire Adept on subsequent turns the spell endures, and not only at the very same turn it is cast.
But that would mean you can very well use the benefit of i.E. Spellfire Adept on subsequent turns the spell endures, and not only at the very same turn it is cast.
That is correct. Just like the celestial warlock's 6th level feature works on the second damage on searing smite.
But that would mean you can very well use the benefit of i.E. Spellfire Adept on subsequent turns the spell endures, and not only at the very same turn it is cast.
Sorry. I explained my stuff using "When you cast..." instead of your actual question about "When a spell you cast...". My bad.
I recognize that MeatLuggin made a very good point, and I could agree with that difference if a DM prefers that interpretation. So, if I'm getting MeatLuggin's explanation right:
- "When you cast a spell" -> triggers at the moment of casting
- "When a spell you cast deals damage" -> triggers whenever that spell deals damage, which could be later, not necessarily on the turn you cast it
1) "When you cast a spell that deals damage" = "[This is a triggered event] + [triggering action] + [additional criteria]"
2) "When a spell you cast deals damage" = "[This is a triggered event] + [additional criteria] + [triggering action]"
They're semantically different statements. If cast a spell at Time A and the spell then deals damage at Time B, wording 1 triggers at Time A and wording 2 triggers at Time B.
"When you cast" is always referring to a spell cast in the future, not the past because "When you X do Y" is a prescriptive condition for a future action and outcome
But that would mean you can very well use the benefit of i.E. Spellfire Adept on subsequent turns the spell endures, and not only at the very same turn it is cast.
Sorry. I explained my stuff using "When you cast..." instead of your actual question about "When a spell you cast...". My bad.
I recognize that MeatLuggin made a very good point, and I could agree with that difference if a DM prefers that interpretation. So, if I'm getting MeatLuggin's explanation right:
- "When you cast a spell" -> triggers at the moment of casting
- "When a spell you cast deals damage" -> triggers whenever that spell deals damage, which could be later, not necessarily on the turn you cast it
EDIT: for clarity.
This is correct. The op's confusion likely came from cast being used in both clauses. When trying to understand a clause it's easiest to start by looking at the subject, main verb, and object. When you do that to "when a spell you cast deals damage" you're looking at the subject "a spell" doing the verb "deals" and the object or what it's dealing of "damage" with the adjectival clause describing the spell as one that "you cast".
I think the intent of the language is probably to prevent you from activating it if a damaging spell you cast fails to deal damage. Using a few examples above:
You are a rare Druid/Sorcerer hybrid with the Spellfire Adept feat. You cast Moonbeam on a group of Goblins that have your Fighter surrounded. You must, necessarily, also target the Fighter. When you cast Moonbeam, you use Careful Spell to protect the Fighter from the spell's damage. This has no bearing on whether the spell would do damage, just that it's a spell that could deal damage. The leader of the Goblins uses her Reaction to smash a smoky, black vial on the ground, surrounding the full group in a black mist that provides a one-time shield against all Radiant damage. The fighter is inside the mist, and is protected by its effect. You can't un-use Careful Spell, it was used when you cast the spell. However, you also can't use the benefits of the Spellfire Adept feat, as the spell you cast did no damage.
That said, on the following turn, interestingly, the inverse is true. You can only use Careful Spell to protect your Fighter when the spell is cast, meaning when you trigger the second blast of Moonbeam, your fighter has to make their own saving throws. However, as the Goblins have no additional means to protect themselves from the damage of the spell, you would be able to trigger Spellfire Adept then, and in any subsequent rounds, assuming you have the requisite Hit Dice available.
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There is something I wonder about, and that's "When a spell you cast..." in contrast to "When you cast a spell". While with the latter grammatical construct 'cast' is usually being interpreted as present tense, but with the former constellation, it could technically also be past tense (to cast - cast - cast). There is no 'casted' conjugation, as this is an irregular verb.
My question therefore is. Can it be that this can indeed seen as both present and past tense in regards to ruling?
Practical example:
Spellfire Adept: "Once per turn, when a spell you cast deals radiant damage..." in conjunction with the spell Holy Weapon: "As a bonus action on your turn you can dismiss this spell and cause... 4d8 radiant damage..." While it is a dismissal, and probably on a later turn, it still damage dealt by a spell that I cast (past tense).
Or Sunbeam: "You can create a new line of radiance as your action on any turn until the spell ends."
Technically speaking, any successive line of radiance on a later turn it is radiant damage dealt by a spell I cast, when 'cast' is interpreted as past tense.
I read "Once per turn, when a spell you cast deals radiant damage..." as present tense.
It can only be past tense. When the spell deals damage, you have already successfully cast it. Resolution happens after casting the spell.
I would read it as letting you use the feat every time you used Sunbeam to create a new line of radiance.
Under my interpretation, the phrase "'When you cast..." (found in different feats or features) is resolved at the moment you cast the spell, so it uses the present tense.
A similar example is the Careful Spell Metamagic option. It should affect Saving Throws made when the spell is cast, not on later turns.
While not official ruling, this is from the Dev using Cloudkill as an example:
That would apply if "When you cast a spell...", and "When a spell you cast..." was seen as the exact same grammatical construct. If so, why not staying with "When you cast a spell" in all descriptions?
Changed my mind, I agree with MeatLuggin below.
Because there is a grammatical distinction between the two phrases. "When you cast a spell" is a subordinate adverbial clause where the subject is you and the verb is cast. "When a spell you cast deals damage" is a subordinate adverbial clause where the subject is a spell that has the finite-verb clause "you cast" serving as an adjective modifying "spell" and the main verb is deals. Trying to compare the word "cast" in both situations makes no sense because they serve different grammatical functions. One is the main verb of an adverbial clause, and the other is the main verb of adjectival clause in an adverbial clause. That grammatical distinction makes it so that when a spell you cast and are concentrating on deals damage on subsequent turns has the extra effect whereas the other does not because you are not casting the spell that turn.
TLDR: comparing the tense of cast in these two clauses makes no sense because they serve as verbs in different types of clauses.
But that would mean you can very well use the benefit of i.E. Spellfire Adept on subsequent turns the spell endures, and not only at the very same turn it is cast.
That is correct. Just like the celestial warlock's 6th level feature works on the second damage on searing smite.
Sorry. I explained my stuff using "When you cast..." instead of your actual question about "When a spell you cast...". My bad.
I recognize that MeatLuggin made a very good point, and I could agree with that difference if a DM prefers that interpretation. So, if I'm getting MeatLuggin's explanation right:
- "When you cast a spell" -> triggers at the moment of casting
- "When a spell you cast deals damage" -> triggers whenever that spell deals damage, which could be later, not necessarily on the turn you cast it
EDIT: for clarity.
1) "When you cast a spell that deals damage" = "[This is a triggered event] + [triggering action] + [additional criteria]"
2) "When a spell you cast deals damage" = "[This is a triggered event] + [additional criteria] + [triggering action]"
They're semantically different statements. If cast a spell at Time A and the spell then deals damage at Time B, wording 1 triggers at Time A and wording 2 triggers at Time B.
"When you cast" is always referring to a spell cast in the future, not the past because "When you X do Y" is a prescriptive condition for a future action and outcome
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This is correct. The op's confusion likely came from cast being used in both clauses. When trying to understand a clause it's easiest to start by looking at the subject, main verb, and object. When you do that to "when a spell you cast deals damage" you're looking at the subject "a spell" doing the verb "deals" and the object or what it's dealing of "damage" with the adjectival clause describing the spell as one that "you cast".
If cast can be interpreted at both present and past tense in general, i'm not sure it's intended to be both from game design standpoint though;
I think the intent of the language is probably to prevent you from activating it if a damaging spell you cast fails to deal damage. Using a few examples above:
You are a rare Druid/Sorcerer hybrid with the Spellfire Adept feat. You cast Moonbeam on a group of Goblins that have your Fighter surrounded. You must, necessarily, also target the Fighter. When you cast Moonbeam, you use Careful Spell to protect the Fighter from the spell's damage. This has no bearing on whether the spell would do damage, just that it's a spell that could deal damage. The leader of the Goblins uses her Reaction to smash a smoky, black vial on the ground, surrounding the full group in a black mist that provides a one-time shield against all Radiant damage. The fighter is inside the mist, and is protected by its effect. You can't un-use Careful Spell, it was used when you cast the spell. However, you also can't use the benefits of the Spellfire Adept feat, as the spell you cast did no damage.
That said, on the following turn, interestingly, the inverse is true. You can only use Careful Spell to protect your Fighter when the spell is cast, meaning when you trigger the second blast of Moonbeam, your fighter has to make their own saving throws. However, as the Goblins have no additional means to protect themselves from the damage of the spell, you would be able to trigger Spellfire Adept then, and in any subsequent rounds, assuming you have the requisite Hit Dice available.