All the smite spells say you take the bonus action immediately after hitting a target with a Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike. If the attack, pre-smite, killed the enemy, that seems pretty immediate to me as well.
I couldn’t find anything in the Combat section of the PHB that clarifies this. My inclination is that you should resolve all damage made as part of the attack before finding out the outcome, but I’ve not managed to find a rule that unequivocally states that.
Having said that, if I’m the DM and feeling kind to my players when they’re low on spell slots, I might drop a hint that a Smite might not actually be necessary.
There is no rule they have to tell you a normal hit will finish them. But I think it is pretty normal for the DM to let you know something. The game lets you function perfectly at 1 hit point, but if a enemy with 100 hit points is down to their last 7 making it clear they are on their last legs and the next hit will likely finish them seems reasonable. or if you are level 10 and the enemies max hit points are 7 you might give them some context clues. How you want to describe it likely is dependent on how you describe hit points in general.
Mechanically, no, there is no rule saying you get to know that the hit would finish the enemy.
Narratively, many DM's will give you clues that they are on their last legs, and a lot of they time they might tell you as soon as the attack roll hits something like "...and that will finish them, as they only had 2 HP left".
I couldn’t find anything in the Combat section of the PHB that clarifies this. [...]
I'd say this is the relevant part for answering the OP's question:
Making an Attack
When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack. Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure:
Choose a Target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location.
Determine Modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has Cover (see the next section) and whether you have Advantage or Disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
Resolve the Attack. Make the attack roll, as detailed earlier in this chapter. On a hit, you roll damage unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
So before finishing step 3, or during it, you roll all the damage, extra damage included (e.g. from Hunter's Mark, Hex, or Smite spells):
Damage Rolls
Each weapon, spell, and damaging monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage dice, add any modifiers, and deal the damage to your target. If there’s a penalty to the damage, it’s possible to deal 0 damage but not negative damage.
Basically, a Smite spell could be wasted if your normal Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike damage were enough to kill your foe.
Anyway, I agree with folks here that the descriptions given by a DM could help you decide if casting is worth it.
OP: Do you get to know if an enemy died before deciding to smite or not?
Yes. The initial attack, including the damage dealt, is fully resolved before deciding to smite or not.
Although the smite spells are worded such that the smite damage is attributed to the initial attack, the smite is initiated by taking a Bonus Action. A Bonus Action can never be nested within another action -- such activities occur sequentially.
One Thing at a Time
The game uses actions to govern how much you can do at one time. You can take only one action at a time.
Bonus Actions
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a Bonus Action.
. . .
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified. Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
The One Thing at a Time rule deprives you of your ability to take actions while another action is being taken. The Bonus Action rule confirms that this also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action during that time.
As DM when a player is about to use a limited resource in attacking a foe I know will die if they just hit it, I will ask them for a Medicine check. If they pass I tell them just hit it and not bother with the resource use. The character is right there fighting the foe. The character can see how beat up he is. If they the fail the check then I say nothing. It hasn't happen yet, but if I say nothing but because I asked for a check they want to take back their intent to use the resource regardless I won't let them. I only call for the check after they committed to the resource use. The DC is based on the creature. Aberrations would have a higher DC than humanoids for example. If the PC is a spellcaster I'll call for the check if they want to cast a spell of 3rd level or higher. If it's a 2nd level spell I may or may not but more likely from levels 3-6. A 1st level spell I rarely call for the check.
OP: Do you get to know if an enemy died before deciding to smite or not?
Yes. The initial attack, including the damage dealt, is fully resolved before deciding to smite or not.
Although the smite spells are worded such that the smite damage is attributed to the initial attack, the smite is initiated by taking a Bonus Action. A Bonus Action can never be nested within another action -- such activities occur sequentially.
One Thing at a Time
The game uses actions to govern how much you can do at one time. You can take only one action at a time.
Bonus Actions
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a Bonus Action.
. . .
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified. Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
The One Thing at a Time rule deprives you of your ability to take actions while another action is being taken. The Bonus Action rule confirms that this also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action during that time.
I think, in this case, it's a specific beats general condition. The smites have a special, very specific timing that overrides the general rule of "One action at a time". And that timing is that your BA for the smite is taken when your attack "hits", which is before damage is resolved.
The One Thing at a Time rule deprives you of your ability to take actions while another action is being taken. The Bonus Action rule confirms that this also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action during that time.
A Bonus Action is not an Action and, like a Reaction has its timing dictated by the source of the Bonus Action. If this timing is during an Action, it happens during the Action. This is the case here. The Bonus Action occurs after the hit, but before damage is rolled. If a Smite is used, the damage dealt is increased. This also means that the Smite damage dice are doubled on a critical hit. If the Smite was after the hit was resolved, the damage dice could not be doubled on a critical.
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a Bonus Action.
. . .
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified. Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
[...]
The important part is not the one you underlined, but "You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified," and in this case, the timing is specified: "after hitting a creature..."
I think, in this case, it's a specific beats general condition. The smites have a special, very specific timing that overrides the general rule of "One action at a time". And that timing is that your BA for the smite is taken when your attack "hits", which is before damage is resolved.
This is a reasonable interpretation.
One nitpick though -- The wording is not "when your attack "hits"", at least not for the first one that I happened to flip to, which is Divine Smite. I assume that they all have the same wording although that might be a poor assumption.
Divine Smite:
"Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike"
In my opinion, this wording is deliberate and it matters. The timing is sequential, not simultaneous.
The spells are specifically designed to take into account the exact thing that you guys are all griping about in this thread. You are meant to know if the target of your smite spell is alive before you decide to cast it.
The One Thing at a Time rule deprives you of your ability to take actions while another action is being taken. The Bonus Action rule confirms that this also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action during that time.
A Bonus Action is not an Action and, like a Reaction has its timing dictated by the source of the Bonus Action. If this timing is during an Action, it happens during the Action. This is the case here. The Bonus Action occurs after the hit, but before damage is rolled. If a Smite is used, the damage dealt is increased. This also means that the Smite damage dice are doubled on a critical hit. If the Smite was after the hit was resolved, the damage dice could not be doubled on a critical.
A Bonus Action is a special action. Many rules which impact actions also impact Bonus Actions, although in the 2024 rules this is typically spelled out as such. Bonus Actions also have many of their own rules -- the relevant ones for this situation were quoted in my previous post.
I agree that in this case the Bonus Action occurs after the hit. Before damage is rolled? Where does it say that, exactly? I quoted the wording for Divine Smite above -- I see no such wording to indicate "before damage is rolled" or anything of that sort.
If the Smite was after the hit was resolved, the damage dice could not be doubled on a critical.
I disagree with this. In this case, the spell description explicitly says otherwise. Again, using Divine Smite as an example:
The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack.
Because this extra damage is attributed to the attack, these damage dice are doubled if the initial attack was a critical hit, by rule.
_____
As a side note, I'm aware that it is common practice to allow Bonus Actions to be taken during actions -- some of the obvious examples include spells like Hex and Hunter's Mark that allow you to switch your target if the current target drops to 0 HP before the spell ends. In my opinion, you are not actually meant to be able to do this between two of your attacks during an Attack action, for example, although everybody does play it that way.
Extra damage are delivered with the same Damage Rolls instance; you roll the damage dice, add any modifiers, and deal the damage to your target.
The rules for doing One Thing at a Time refers to your main action, not Bonus Action or Reaction otherwise you wouldn't be able to take these special actions during another action, which many triggers during one.
Extra damage are delivered with the same Damage Rolls instance; you roll the damage dice, add any modifiers, and deal the damage to your target.
The rules for doing One Thing at a Time refers to your main action, not Bonus Action or Reaction otherwise you wouldn't be able to take these special actions during another action, which many triggers during one.
This is also my understanding (it was debated before (*)), so under my interpretation this example should be valid if you have Extra Attack: Attack #1, Bonus Action (e.g. Flurry of Blows), Attack #2.
The contrary would mean you couldn't use Shield when an Opportunity Attack is triggered between your attacks, cast a Smite spell on the first attack, or apply Great Weapon Master or Polearm Master in the middle of them.
(*) some threads where using a Bonus Action in the middle was mentioned or discussed:
Whats the debate... Any gm not telling the player that the foe is dead without adding the smite needs to relax and realize this is just a game of fun. 🤣
Whats the debate... Any gm not telling the player that the foe is dead without adding the smite needs to relax and realize this is just a game of fun. 🤣
You don't roll the weapon dice until you decide to cast Smite or not. If the enemy has 1 HP left, I would probably say don't bother, more hard-core DMs would let you sweat the choice. It depends on the tone you are going for at the table. However, if you're swinging for 1d8+4 and the enemy has 8 HP left, do you want to chance not smiting?
One nitpick though -- The wording is not "when your attack "hits"", at least not for the first one that I happened to flip to, which is Divine Smite. I assume that they all have the same wording although that might be a poor assumption.
Divine Smite:
"Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike"
In my opinion, this wording is deliberate and it matters. The timing is sequential, not simultaneous.
Slight correction.
Divine Smite:
"Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike"
In my opinion, this wording is deliberate and it matters. You've hit and you must immediately stop and decide whether to cast a Smite spell or not.
When you score a Critical Hit, you deal extra damage. Roll the attack’s damage dice twice, add them together, and add any relevant modifiers as normal. For example, if you score a Critical Hit with a Dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage rather than 1d4, and add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the Rogue’s Sneak Attack feature, you also roll those dice twice.
Once you roll the damage, the opportunity to expend a Bonus Action and add to the attack's damage is gone. If you don't Smite before the damage roll, you can't crit. But you can because you use the Bonus Action before the damage roll.
Smite is such a delicacy when you see you score a Critical Hit, your eyes instantly light up as you start licking your chops while grabing handful of dice.....
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All the smite spells say you take the bonus action immediately after hitting a target with a Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike. If the attack, pre-smite, killed the enemy, that seems pretty immediate to me as well.
Not typically. The spells are causing the attack to deal extra damage. You can't resolve the attack without the extra attack, if you are adding it.
Does your DM tell you the Hit Point values creatures are at before you attack?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I couldn’t find anything in the Combat section of the PHB that clarifies this. My inclination is that you should resolve all damage made as part of the attack before finding out the outcome, but I’ve not managed to find a rule that unequivocally states that.
Having said that, if I’m the DM and feeling kind to my players when they’re low on spell slots, I might drop a hint that a Smite might not actually be necessary.
The damage the smite adds is not a separate packet of damage, but part of the attack's damage. (For one thing, the dice are doubled by crits.)
That means that they have to be added in before the damage is rolled and dealt, so the monster takes no damage at all until you smite.
(Of course, sometimes the DM is going to say "yeah, it's dead" before you even roll damage, but that's not the norm.)
There is no rule they have to tell you a normal hit will finish them. But I think it is pretty normal for the DM to let you know something. The game lets you function perfectly at 1 hit point, but if a enemy with 100 hit points is down to their last 7 making it clear they are on their last legs and the next hit will likely finish them seems reasonable. or if you are level 10 and the enemies max hit points are 7 you might give them some context clues. How you want to describe it likely is dependent on how you describe hit points in general.
Mechanically, no, there is no rule saying you get to know that the hit would finish the enemy.
Narratively, many DM's will give you clues that they are on their last legs, and a lot of they time they might tell you as soon as the attack roll hits something like "...and that will finish them, as they only had 2 HP left".
I'd say this is the relevant part for answering the OP's question:
So before finishing step 3, or during it, you roll all the damage, extra damage included (e.g. from Hunter's Mark, Hex, or Smite spells):
Basically, a Smite spell could be wasted if your normal Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike damage were enough to kill your foe.
Anyway, I agree with folks here that the descriptions given by a DM could help you decide if casting is worth it.
I usually let my players know once an enemy is bloodied and they'll often ask me how an enemy is heal-wise before using any attack/damage feature.
If your DM says something like this I would not bother:
“He’s gurgling blood, his eye is hanging out, and he’s breathing heavy. But he lifts up his clawed hand for one more desperate swing…. but misses.”
It really depends on how good of a storyteller the DM is…. lol
OP: Do you get to know if an enemy died before deciding to smite or not?
Yes. The initial attack, including the damage dealt, is fully resolved before deciding to smite or not.
Although the smite spells are worded such that the smite damage is attributed to the initial attack, the smite is initiated by taking a Bonus Action. A Bonus Action can never be nested within another action -- such activities occur sequentially.
The One Thing at a Time rule deprives you of your ability to take actions while another action is being taken. The Bonus Action rule confirms that this also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action during that time.
As DM when a player is about to use a limited resource in attacking a foe I know will die if they just hit it, I will ask them for a Medicine check. If they pass I tell them just hit it and not bother with the resource use. The character is right there fighting the foe. The character can see how beat up he is. If they the fail the check then I say nothing. It hasn't happen yet, but if I say nothing but because I asked for a check they want to take back their intent to use the resource regardless I won't let them. I only call for the check after they committed to the resource use. The DC is based on the creature. Aberrations would have a higher DC than humanoids for example. If the PC is a spellcaster I'll call for the check if they want to cast a spell of 3rd level or higher. If it's a 2nd level spell I may or may not but more likely from levels 3-6. A 1st level spell I rarely call for the check.
I think, in this case, it's a specific beats general condition. The smites have a special, very specific timing that overrides the general rule of "One action at a time". And that timing is that your BA for the smite is taken when your attack "hits", which is before damage is resolved.
A Bonus Action is not an Action and, like a Reaction has its timing dictated by the source of the Bonus Action. If this timing is during an Action, it happens during the Action. This is the case here. The Bonus Action occurs after the hit, but before damage is rolled. If a Smite is used, the damage dealt is increased. This also means that the Smite damage dice are doubled on a critical hit. If the Smite was after the hit was resolved, the damage dice could not be doubled on a critical.
As sabin76 mentioned, Exceptions Supersede General Rules.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The important part is not the one you underlined, but "You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified," and in this case, the timing is specified: "after hitting a creature..."
This is a reasonable interpretation.
One nitpick though -- The wording is not "when your attack "hits"", at least not for the first one that I happened to flip to, which is Divine Smite. I assume that they all have the same wording although that might be a poor assumption.
In my opinion, this wording is deliberate and it matters. The timing is sequential, not simultaneous.
The spells are specifically designed to take into account the exact thing that you guys are all griping about in this thread. You are meant to know if the target of your smite spell is alive before you decide to cast it.
A Bonus Action is a special action. Many rules which impact actions also impact Bonus Actions, although in the 2024 rules this is typically spelled out as such. Bonus Actions also have many of their own rules -- the relevant ones for this situation were quoted in my previous post.
I agree that in this case the Bonus Action occurs after the hit. Before damage is rolled? Where does it say that, exactly? I quoted the wording for Divine Smite above -- I see no such wording to indicate "before damage is rolled" or anything of that sort.
I disagree with this. In this case, the spell description explicitly says otherwise. Again, using Divine Smite as an example:
Because this extra damage is attributed to the attack, these damage dice are doubled if the initial attack was a critical hit, by rule.
_____
As a side note, I'm aware that it is common practice to allow Bonus Actions to be taken during actions -- some of the obvious examples include spells like Hex and Hunter's Mark that allow you to switch your target if the current target drops to 0 HP before the spell ends. In my opinion, you are not actually meant to be able to do this between two of your attacks during an Attack action, for example, although everybody does play it that way.
Extra damage are delivered with the same Damage Rolls instance; you roll the damage dice, add any modifiers, and deal the damage to your target.
The rules for doing One Thing at a Time refers to your main action, not Bonus Action or Reaction otherwise you wouldn't be able to take these special actions during another action, which many triggers during one.
This is also my understanding (it was debated before (*)), so under my interpretation this example should be valid if you have Extra Attack: Attack #1, Bonus Action (e.g. Flurry of Blows), Attack #2.
The contrary would mean you couldn't use Shield when an Opportunity Attack is triggered between your attacks, cast a Smite spell on the first attack, or apply Great Weapon Master or Polearm Master in the middle of them.
(*) some threads where using a Bonus Action in the middle was mentioned or discussed:
- Dual wield, Nick and light weapons. - (starting from comment 59)
- Equip or Unequip a weapon - (starting from comment 120)
- Nick debate SOLVED - (comment 23)
- Nick debate SOLVED - (starting from comment 41)
- Nick debate SOLVED - (comment 57)
- Nick debate SOLVED - (comment 72)
- Two-Weapon Fighting v Two-Weapon Fighting Style v Dual Wielding - (starting from comment 14)
- Eldritch Knight / Valor Bard + Nick mastery - (comment 71)
EDIT: links updated.
Whats the debate... Any gm not telling the player that the foe is dead without adding the smite needs to relax and realize this is just a game of fun. 🤣
You don't roll the weapon dice until you decide to cast Smite or not. If the enemy has 1 HP left, I would probably say don't bother, more hard-core DMs would let you sweat the choice. It depends on the tone you are going for at the table. However, if you're swinging for 1d8+4 and the enemy has 8 HP left, do you want to chance not smiting?
Slight correction.
In my opinion, this wording is deliberate and it matters. You've hit and you must immediately stop and decide whether to cast a Smite spell or not.
Critical Hits
Once you roll the damage, the opportunity to expend a Bonus Action and add to the attack's damage is gone. If you don't Smite before the damage roll, you can't crit. But you can because you use the Bonus Action before the damage roll.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Smite is such a delicacy when you see you score a Critical Hit, your eyes instantly light up as you start licking your chops while grabing handful of dice.....