Divine Sense vs the Invisibility spell

How does a Paladin's Divine Sense (or the spell Detect Evil and Good) interact with an undead or a fiend who is also invisible? Does knowing the location of a creature counts as "If a creature can somehow see you" for targeting the creature with a spell and avoiding the disadvantage to your attack and advantage to their attacks ?

Divine Sense. As a Bonus Action, you can open your awareness to detect Celestials, Fiends, and Undead. For the next 10 minutes or until you have the Incapacitated condition, you know the location of any creature of those types within 60 feet of yourself, and you know its creature type. 

Invisible [Condition]

While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.

Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.

Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.

Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.

"Knowing the location" is not the same as "seeing". Anything that relies on sight won't work. However, you won't have to "guess the square" of where the creature is when attacking, so you won't auto-miss either.

Thanks!

So it stands to reason that you can not cast a spell like magic missile  or  sacred flame on a creature which is invisible but you know the location of, right?  :)

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Thanks!

So it stands to reason that you can not cast a spell like magic missile  or  sacred flame on a creature which is invisible but you know the location of, right?  :) 

That's correct.

Just FYI, a creature being Invisible does not require you to "guess the square" they're in, either. You still know where a creature is when it's Invisible, unless it's Hidden.

That is, strictly speaking, not correct per RAW. Making a successful Dexterity (Stealth) check with the Hide action simply gives you the Invisible condition. There is no "Hidden" condition, which you know, because, like me, you created the tag for it using the "action" tag, like this: Hidden. If you are Invisible, you are Invisible. The reason for your opponent's ability to perceive you are entirely circumstantial. Your DM might rule that you can be perceived with a successful Search action, or that you give your position away by leaving footprints as you walk. When you use the Hide action to become Invisible, the circumstances which cause the condition to end are clearly defined: "you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component." This does not mean that, if you take the Hide action while Invisible, you are Super Invisible, or that you are less easy to detect than if you did not. In fact, you cannot necessarily take the Hide action while Invisible, because the Hide action requires you be Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters cover or Total Cover, and the Invisible condition does not provide any cover, nor does it render you Heavily Obscured.

To get back to the OP's original question, any number of circumstances could exist that allow you to pinpoint the location of an Invisible opponent. This does not mean that you have satisfied the conditions to see them unless it explicitly says that you see them (such as with Blindsight). In fact, having an ability like Paladin's Divine Sense doesn't even allow you to "find" an opponent who is Invisible because of the Hide action. Your DM might rule that it does, or allow you to take advantage on a Search action to find them, but that's why the DM is the boss. Either way, any amount of uncountered Invisibility renders you incapable of being targeted by any spell, ability, or other effect which relies on its user seeing their target.

Yes I am aware that there is no hidden condition (unfortunately), but I'm also aware that the Invisible condition - like all conditions - does what it says and no more. You speak of RAW, but then go on to say it's left up to DM fiat. This is not true; the Invisible condition does not say that you are in any way concealed from notice, nor from a creature knowing your location, so you are not. The Hide action, however, does specify that it is used to conceal yourself. You'll notice that the Search action's (Perception) check specifies trying to find a "concealed" creature, which only the Hide action provides. Rules as Written, creatures should always know where you are if you are Invisible unless you also took the Hide action, because there's no Written reason whatsoever for why they shouldn't.

Frankly, stealth was bad in 2014, and despite my greatest hopes they somehow made it even worse in 2024. Most everyone simply goes off of vibes when it comes to stealth rather than written rules, which is truly the way it should be done. Making the Invisible condition a component of the Hide action was a wild choice, and - as you brought up - removing the Heavily Obscured component of the Invisible condition on top of that was even more insane.  

I allow Divine Sense to know the location of any Celestials, Fiends, and Undead within 60 feet of yourself, regardless if Invisible or behind Total Cover.

I allow Detect Evil and Good  to sense the location of any Aberration, Celestial, Elemental, Fey, Fiend, or Undead within 30 feet of yourself even if  Invisible as long as it's not blocked by 1 foot of stone, dirt, or wood; 1 inch of metal; or a thin sheet of lead.

No need to see them, so you could have the Blinded condition, they could have the Invisible condition or be in an Heavily Obscured area, behind some walls or opaque curtain, in dark water etc..

You'll notice that the Search action's (Perception) check specifies trying to find a "concealed" creature, which only the Hide action provides. 

To be completely fair the text of the Invisible condition says: 

Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.

Based on the assumption that the Paladin now knows where the invisible target is.   

Can that information be relayed to someone that can cast Faerie Fire?

When that caster does cast the spell, everyone knows where the target is, correct?

If the casters initiative is before the Paladin,  who does that ID  space and casting spell work if the target is moving?  Does that mean the spell probably won't succeed?

Quote from Jaysburn >>

Yes I am aware that there is no hidden condition (unfortunately), but I'm also aware that the Invisible condition - like all conditions - does what it says and no more. You speak of RAW, but then go on to say it's left up to DM fiat. 

I did not say anything was left up to fiat, what I said was that your ability to remain undetected while Invisible was circumstantial. The DM determines those circumstances, and their impact on your ability to remain undetected. If you are stomping around and shouting in an empty library, people are going to go "oh, there's an Invisible person over there," but if you're stomping around and shouting in the middle of a hurricane, you'll probably get away with it.

Quote from Jaysburn >>

the Invisible condition does not say that you are in any way concealed from notice, nor from a creature knowing your location, so you are not. The Hide action, however, does specify that it is used to conceal yourself. You'll notice that the Search action's (Perception) check specifies trying to find a "concealed" creature, which only the Hide action provides. Rules as Written, creatures should always know where you are if you are Invisible unless you also took the Hide action, because there's no Written reason whatsoever for why they shouldn't.

You're looking at it backwards. Taking the Hide doesn't make you concealed while Invisible, taking the Hide action makes you Invisible which renders you concealed. The second bullet point in the description of the Invisible condition is "Concealed," and that literally only applies to being affected by "any affect that requires [you] to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see [you]." Neither taking the Hide action NOR the Invisible condition prevent you from being heard, smelled, touched, tasted, or detected via any other extrasensory perception. The Hide action doesn't make you harder to detect, it requires that you remain undetected in order to remain Invisible. Meanwhile, Invisibility granted by any other source (such as the Invisibility spell) have their own, unique conditions for remaining Invisible.

This does not mean that, should you have Invisibility from a source other than taking the Hide action, that you cannot remain effectively concealed. If you announce to your DM that you intend to attempt to remain undetected while under the effect of the Invisibility spell, they may allow you to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to determine how well you remain undetected via sound, smell, tracks, etc., and use that as the DC for a Wisdom (Perception) check to pinpoint your location. But that's just being sneaky, it's not the same as taking the Hide action.

Quote from RWinnie >>

 In fact, having an ability like Paladin's Divine Sense doesn't even allow you to "find" an opponent who is Invisible because of the Hide action. Your DM might rule that it does, or allow you to take advantage on a Search action to find them, but that's why the DM is the boss. Either way, any amount of uncountered Invisibility renders you incapable of being targeted by any spell, ability, or other effect which relies on its user seeing their target.

This is interesting to me :)

As you said the invisible condition offered from hide stops working when

- you make a sound louder than a whisper

- an enemy finds you

- you make an attack roll

- you cast a spell with a Verbal component

Wouldn't perceiving the exact location of a creature also qualify as finding it?

Interestingly, the the invisible condition offered from the invisibility spell stops working when:

- the target makes an attack roll

- the targets deals damage

- the targets casts a spell.

And the the invisible condition offered from the greater  invisibility spell has no condition that make it stop.

So that means that for both spells knowing the location is not enough to end the condition. But if your invisible condition comes from hide, there is a chance to end it by "finding you".

@Jayce_DanatharTrue, though... complicated.

Ultimately, the 5.5e rules for stealth are just... bad. Really, really bad. There's technically nothing in either the Hide action nor the Invisible condition that ever specifically says that a creature doesn't know where you are, although the Hide action saying you "attempt to conceal yourself" is close, but not perfect.
The closest we really, truly get is in the text of the Stealth skill, which states that it allows you to "escape notice." Since the Hide action is the only consistent way to make Dexterity (Stealth) check, we can reasonably extrapolate that it is necessary to "escape notice," and that the Invisible condition itself is not enough as it does not - by default - include a Stealth check.

Yes, while Concealed is the name of one of the three features of the Invisible condition, it is simply that; a feature name, not the actual specifics of what it does (which comes after the name, same as the Surprise and Attacks Affected feature names); that is to say, "you aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen." If the Concealed feature was intended to - by itself - prevent creatures from knowing your location, it would say so. 
"Attempting to conceal yourself" is what the Hide action says it does, and "escaping notice" is what the Stealth skill says it does.

Unfortunately, stealth in D&D has always been a mess, and 5.5e just made it even worse, which is honestly kind of impressive. I think it's fairly easy to extrapolate the Intent of the way stealth is meant to work, but the way the rules for it are Written is full of contradictions and complications.

Again, you are thinking about it backwards: The Hide action only serves to make you Invisible. If I am hiding under a big pile of leaves, and your Divine Sense allows you to know I am under the leaves, I am still Invisible because knowing I'm there doesn't make the leaves disappear. This, again, is specific to exclusively sight. You know I'm under the leaves, but you can't target me with a Magic Missile because I am Invisible. If your Divine Sense indicates that I am hiding under the pile of leaves, you could take a Search action to spot some part of me under the leaves, but only if your Wisdom (Perception) check exceeds the DC set by my Dexterity (Stealth) check, because I could have hidden myself so effectively that you can't see any part of me under the leaves, even by looking really hard. BUT, if you cast Gust of Wind on the leaves and blow them all away, you will also "find" me, and I will no longer be Invisible.

Got it! And if the invisible condition comes from magic instead, even knowing for certain that the character is there won't help with magic missile.

But it will allow you to cast area spells in the right space I guess. 
And you will be able to shot an arrow or swing your sword at the square with disadvantage and at least have a chance to hit. 

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

This is interesting to me :)

As you said the invisible condition offered from hide stops working when

- you make a sound louder than a whisper

- an enemy finds you

- you make an attack roll

- you cast a spell with a Verbal component

Wouldn't perceiving the exact location of a creature also qualify as finding it?

It's not perceiving. You know the exact location. You do not perceive it. It is up to the DM whether that is sufficient and may vary table by table.

Divine Sense. As a Bonus Action, you can open your awareness to detect Celestials, Fiends, and Undead. For the next 10 minutes or until you have the Incapacitated condition, you know the location of any creature of those types within 60 feet of yourself, and you know its creature type. Within the same radius, you also detect the presence of any place or object that has been consecrated or desecrated, as with the Hallow spell.

Sneaky Dan is a fiend on the other side of a bush from you. The bush is 20 feet away from you and Sneaky Dan is 25 feet away.

Divine Sense lets you know Sneaky Dan is 25 feet away from you but does not allow you to see or hear them.

You can play Battleship with Sneaky Dan, but unless you can actually see them, I don't think you have "found them" to end the Invisible condition. Divine Sense is not budget True Sight or Blindsight.

Quote from RWinnie >>

 

You're looking at it backwards. Taking the Hide doesn't make you concealed while Invisible, taking the Hide action makes you Invisible which renders you concealed. The second bullet point in the description of the Invisible condition is "Concealed," and that literally only applies to being affected by "any affect that requires [you] to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see [you]." Neither taking the Hide action NOR the Invisible condition prevent you from being heard, smelled, touched, tasted, or detected via any other extrasensory perception. The Hide action doesn't make you harder to detect, it requires that you remain undetected in order to remain Invisible. Meanwhile, Invisibility granted by any other source (such as the Invisibility spell) have their own, unique conditions for remaining Invisible.

This does not mean that, should you have Invisibility from a source other than taking the Hide action, that you cannot remain effectively concealed. If you announce to your DM that you intend to attempt to remain undetected while under the effect of the Invisibility spell, they may allow you to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to determine how well you remain undetected via sound, smell, tracks, etc., and use that as the DC for a Wisdom (Perception) check to pinpoint your location. But that's just being sneaky, it's not the same as taking the Hide action.

I feel like we're arguing the same point but from slightly different directions. Ultimately, I more or less agree, but I think it's worth discussing the reasons for why these things are the way they are.

Nothing about the Invisible condition makes it so your location is unknown. Read in a vacuum, no part of it says a creature doesn't know where you are when you're Invisible. The names of features do not in any way affect what they do, and the Concealed feature very clearly says what it does; prevents effects that require sight from targeting you.

The only thing that specifically says you can escape being noticed is the Stealth skill, and the only active way for a player to choose to make an ability check using the Stealth is via the Hide action.

Although I do fully agree that a DM could allow a player to make an ability check using Stealth to attempt to "escape notice" (as it says it does) without them actively taking the Hide action, under the right circumstances. However, that doesn't make it a given of the Invisible condition in any way, unless the condition is gained via the Hide action.

Now, beyond that, this I fully disagree with:

Quote from RWinnie >>

Again, you are thinking about it backwards: The Hide action only serves to make you Invisible. If I am hiding under a big pile of leaves, and your Divine Sense allows you to know I am under the leaves, I am still Invisible because knowing I'm there doesn't make the leaves disappear. This, again, is specific to exclusively sight. You know I'm under the leaves, but you can't target me with a Magic Missile because I am Invisible. If your Divine Sense indicates that I am hiding under the pile of leaves, you could take a Search action to spot some part of me under the leaves, but only if your Wisdom (Perception) check exceeds the DC set by my Dexterity (Stealth) check, because I could have hidden myself so effectively that you can't see any part of me under the leaves, even by looking really hard. BUT, if you cast Gust of Wind on the leaves and blow them all away, you will also "find" me, and I will no longer be Invisible.

 
If the Invisible condition has been granted to you via the Hide action, it ends immediately when an enemy finds you. Both Divine Sense and Detect Evil and Good specify that you know the creature's location, and "locating something" is completely synonymous with finding it. The very definition of "find," really.
Now, if the DM is counting the leaves as Total Cover or making the creature Heavily Obscured, then you wouldn't be able to target them (either at all or with something that required sight, respectively) because of the rules of them, but if the leaves were simply granting Three-Quarters Cover or less, you absolutely could.

Quote from RWinnie >>

Again, you are thinking about it backwards: The Hide action only serves to make you Invisible. If I am hiding under a big pile of leaves, and your Divine Sense allows you to know I am under the leaves, I am still Invisible because knowing I'm there doesn't make the leaves disappear. This, again, is specific to exclusively sight. You know I'm under the leaves, but you can't target me with a Magic Missile because I am Invisible. If your Divine Sense indicates that I am hiding under the pile of leaves, you could take a Search action to spot some part of me under the leaves, but only if your Wisdom (Perception) check exceeds the DC set by my Dexterity (Stealth) check, because I could have hidden myself so effectively that you can't see any part of me under the leaves, even by looking really hard. BUT, if you cast Gust of Wind on the leaves and blow them all away, you will also "find" me, and I will no longer be Invisible.

I think this would only work if you used something that could actually provide cover (an obstacle that can make the "target more difficult to harm", PHB Ch1 Combat). Leaves are not that. One of the end conditions for the Hide action is "an enemy finding you". Knowing your location could easily be interpreted to mean "found you", so I think there's an argument to be made that a creature cannot hide from a paladin if it's one of those creature types and within range. If you play hide and seek with someone, then knowing a hider's location is the same as finding them.

Divine Sense lets you know Sneaky Dan is 25 feet away from you but does not allow you to see or hear them.

You can play Battleship with Sneaky Dan, but unless you can actually see them, I don't think you have "found them" to end the Invisible condition. Divine Sense is not budget True Sight or Blindsight.

Divine sense is far better than simply letting you know the radial distance away from you a creature is. You know it's exact location. There is no battleship... or rather, you would already know that E3 would be a hit before you called it out.

Quote from sabin76 >>

Divine Sense lets you know Sneaky Dan is 25 feet away from you but does not allow you to see or hear them.

You can play Battleship with Sneaky Dan, but unless you can actually see them, I don't think you have "found them" to end the Invisible condition. Divine Sense is not budget True Sight or Blindsight.

Divine sense is far better than simply letting you know the radial distance away from you a creature is. You know it's exact location. There is no battleship... or rather, you would already know that E3 would be a hit before you called it out.

It never says "exact location". It also, never says "approximate location". However, either way you still don't see them or perceive them in any way. You only know where they are. You don't even know how big it is. You could know that it is standing on the other side of a wall, but not whether it is tiny or huge. You know the creature's location with an undetermined amount of precision and the creature's type. Going back to the Battleship example, you know that you E3 has a boat, but you don't know if it's a Carrier or Patrol Boat.

Is knowing the location sufficient to have found a hidden target? Maybe. Maybe not. SAnE discusses it regarding Blindsight and Truesight, but no other features. D&D never defines targets senses (usually only visual) or what finding means (even under Finding Hidden Objects). It's reasonable to interpret the rules either way so talk to the DM.

I personally lean towards you know where to look but still need to take a [actions]Search[/actions] and succeed on a Perception check. I would give advantage on the check though.