Our group us having a difference of opinion on how extra attacks work with ranged weapons. Let's say a fighter has the 2 extra attacks on his action. He shoots with a ammunition ranged weapon so he gets 3 attacks on his action we believe this is correct. Now if he uses a thrown weapon such as a javelin how many can he make? Also how about a light weapon such as daggers? We are confused due to the having to draw more then one item out on your action. Please any help and references would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
We're going with an 11th level fighter = 2 extra attacks.
Attack action = attack 1, attack 2, attack 3
Standard missile/ranged weapons consider drawing ammunition as part of the attack action.
Missile weapons that have the "Loading" property (such as crossbow)
Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of Ammunition from it when you use an action, Bonus Action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
With all of that said, my understanding is this:
Melee attacks would give you 3 attacks in total. Ranged attacks with a bow or sling would give you 3 attacks in total Ranged attacks with a crossbow would give you 1 attack*
I see the reference to drawing and firing a weapon this way under "ammunition" weapon rules. But under the "thrown" weapon rule it does not include the drawing out of the weapon in its explanation. Is there another area it mentions this? The crossbow part I also agree with..1 shot unless u have crossbow expert.
Well with that I would go with the Use Object rule:
You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
Considering you're trying to interact with more than 1 Javalin/Hand Axe you'd get 2 attacks. I may be wrong, but the way I interpret it would be as such:
Yea we keep tossing back and forth...just seems to make ammunition ranged weapons nasty in comparison. You have to draw an arrow/bolt/bullet out of its holder but drawing a thrown weapon out takes so much longer...lol...its especially funny when you compare it to a heavy crossbow with crossbow expert. He must have invented the auto cocking crossbow. I've been hoping for some clarification on this rule other then just house ruling it.
My interpretation is based on my understanding of how the book words this.
A crossbow only gets one attack unless they have the expert feat. This is due to the "loading" tab on the crossbow.
A bow can be fired as many times as you have attacks. This is due to arrows being called ammunition, the bow is the weapon.
Technically javelins could work the same as a normal ranked attack, in this case 3 attacks since it does not have the "loading" tag.
However, a javelin is not ammunition, it is a weapon. So in that case it would warrant the "use object" action to pull another javelin from its holster.
You hold a Javelin in each hand and take the dual wield feat. Through two Javelins as two of three attacks for your Extra Attack feature. Then you draw two javelins with the feature in the dual wield feat that lets you draw two weapons. Then you throw one as the third of your Extra Attacks. Then you throw the other as your bonus action for two weapon fighting.
Unfortunately you begin your next turn unarmed so you've better be ready to go into melee by now. You're probably out of Javelins anyway.
Basically it depends how many Javelin's you're holding. Even without the feat you can throw two draw one and throw it (or stab with it)
Yep... but if you have a bow...shoot 3 times and draw your sword....I think I'm trying to put to much realism into fantasy...my dagger wielding/ Throwing fighter/swashbuckler just doesn't feel as cool when a sling is better for him then the daggers...same damage, longer range...ammunition rule.
Side note on javelins: light skirmishing troops during the Roman republic (Velites) usually carried three javelins (one readied, two held in the left hand, that also held a round, center grip boss held shield). Heavier throwing spears like the hasta (therefore the name Hastati for the troops) and the later pilum were also used the same wy, but due to the higher weight, usually only carried in pairs (one in the right hand, one in the shield hand).
D&D is very odd, when it comes to its action economy for stowing/drawing weapons & switching weapons (+ loading ammunition).
I believe RAW and RAI actually agree that you can make a throw weapon attack with each attack of your attack action without having to use an attack to draw a new weapon. Namely the "use item" action is a full action and cannot replace an attack of the attack action in the first place (edit: grapples amd shoves can replace attacks).
Darts and javelins can actually go into a quiver for easier access for throwing. And remember, you do NOT actually need two weapon fighting to attack with a weapon in each hand with extra attack, it is only for attacking with the bonus action.
Seemed to have a lot of answers building off each other in the wrong direction...
You only have one free action to draw a weapon during your turn. If you want to draw another it requires an action. Therefore you can only throw one weapon at your enemy if it is not already drawn. If it is already drawn, you can throw it as well asy draw and throw another. If you already have two throwing weapons drawn, you can throw both of these as well as draw and throw another.
Other Activity on Your Turn
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action.
It is also important to note that Javelins cannot be thrown as a bonus action, while daggers can, due to the Light property.
Great. Now I'm confused. While I would be willing to accept "Oh, okay I can't draw and throw 3 weapons in 1 action," I can't find anything omiting darts from this restriction. They're basically arrows without the bow. And I refuse to accept that you can draw a pebble from a bag, put it in a sling, spin it, and release it faster than you can draw and throw a dart (which to practiced throwers would be a single movement).
More over, now I cant find where in the rules it says bows use dexterity. And I'm getting really ticked off at how unclear many of the rules are.
"Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
Some spells also require an attack roll. The ability modifier used for a spell attack depends on the spellcasting ability of the spellcaster."
"Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
Some spells also require an attack roll. The ability modifier used for a spell attack depends on the spellcasting ability of the spellcaster."
Well I have an invisible javelin launcher that uses javelins as ammunition.
Seriously folks, one free action to ready all weapons to be thrown that round. 2 daggers in one hand while the throwing hand gets the third. It is a non action to pass a dagger from one hand to the throwing hand. Alternatively you could free action to stick 3 javelins in the sand until you throw them one by one in much the same way.
The crux of the argument is this; it is unreasonable to say a character with 3 attacks using a sling and stones gets 3 attacks but a character throwing stones gets less.
Thrown melee weapons are more versatile than ranged weapons. You can use them in melee, or throw them if necessary. If you attack with a bow at 5' range, you're attacking with Disadvantage. If you attack with a handaxe, or javelin, you're not (unless for some inscrutable reason you're throwing it at someone within melee range). Darts, though, are the odd man out: they're thrown, not ammunition, so you need to draw each one to throw it, but they're not thrown melee weapons, but rather ranged weapons (which at least means you can use Sharpshooter with them, while you can't with javelins or handaxes).
Just pointing that out as a balancing factor between thrown melee weapons (which need to be drawn) and ammunition ranged weapons (whose ammunition is drawn as part of the attack). A DM might decide that's not good enough, and allow thrown weapons to be drawn as part of the attack, of course, although I wouldn't.
crossbow expert takes away the disadvantage for ranged attacks while in melee range. which, to me, indicates there was no balancing focused on the Oveepowered handaxe exploit all the munchkins are using. I feel that thrown weapons are balanced around cost, weight and size. you just wouldn't carry 12 javelins around to last you 4 rounds. whereas a quiver or case or magazine are all designed for that. and so the DM doesn't need to not allow you citing a very dubious case for the draw a weapon rule. he can simple ask, did you pay for those? what is your encumbrance at? or how ar these weapons stored, on you belt, in a pack? forcing the player to be reasonable. and 3 javelins in the 1st tound to spring an ambush is totally reasonable.
there is also the question of dwarven thrower . if the fly back happens immediately... why couldn't you take all your extra attacks?
I wish that finesse thrown weapons (darts/daggers) would get a simple addition to the rules allowing them to be drawn and thrown as per the ammunition rule.
Why would drawing count as part of the attack for throwing, but not for melee, though? Why is drawing a javelin near instantaneous when you're going to throw it, but not hen you're gonna stab with it?
Crossbow Expert is a Feat. The fact that it eliminates the Disadvantage incurred by attacking with a ranged weapon point blank (plus its other benefits) is balanced by the loss of an ability score increase, and the opportunity cost of not getting another Feat.
Dwarven Thrower, since it returns to your hand immediately, does not have an issue with having to draw between attacks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Our group us having a difference of opinion on how extra attacks work with ranged weapons. Let's say a fighter has the 2 extra attacks on his action. He shoots with a ammunition ranged weapon so he gets 3 attacks on his action we believe this is correct. Now if he uses a thrown weapon such as a javelin how many can he make? Also how about a light weapon such as daggers? We are confused due to the having to draw more then one item out on your action. Please any help and references would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
We're going with an 11th level fighter = 2 extra attacks.
Attack action = attack 1, attack 2, attack 3
With all of that said, my understanding is this:
Melee attacks would give you 3 attacks in total.
Ranged attacks with a bow or sling would give you 3 attacks in total
Ranged attacks with a crossbow would give you 1 attack*
*Crossbow expert feat would allow for 3 attacks
I see the reference to drawing and firing a weapon this way under "ammunition" weapon rules. But under the "thrown" weapon rule it does not include the drawing out of the weapon in its explanation. Is there another area it mentions this? The crossbow part I also agree with..1 shot unless u have crossbow expert.
Well with that I would go with the Use Object rule:
Considering you're trying to interact with more than 1 Javalin/Hand Axe you'd get 2 attacks. I may be wrong, but the way I interpret it would be as such:
Attack 1: Draw/Toss Javalin
Attack 2: Draw Javalin
Attack 3: Toss Javalin
Yea we keep tossing back and forth...just seems to make ammunition ranged weapons nasty in comparison. You have to draw an arrow/bolt/bullet out of its holder but drawing a thrown weapon out takes so much longer...lol...its especially funny when you compare it to a heavy crossbow with crossbow expert. He must have invented the auto cocking crossbow. I've been hoping for some clarification on this rule other then just house ruling it.
My interpretation is based on my understanding of how the book words this.
A crossbow only gets one attack unless they have the expert feat. This is due to the "loading" tab on the crossbow.
A bow can be fired as many times as you have attacks. This is due to arrows being called ammunition, the bow is the weapon.
Technically javelins could work the same as a normal ranked attack, in this case 3 attacks since it does not have the "loading" tag.
However, a javelin is not ammunition, it is a weapon. So in that case it would warrant the "use object" action to pull another javelin from its holster.
I hope this helps clarify it more.
You hold a Javelin in each hand and take the dual wield feat. Through two Javelins as two of three attacks for your Extra Attack feature. Then you draw two javelins with the feature in the dual wield feat that lets you draw two weapons. Then you throw one as the third of your Extra Attacks. Then you throw the other as your bonus action for two weapon fighting.
Unfortunately you begin your next turn unarmed so you've better be ready to go into melee by now. You're probably out of Javelins anyway.
Basically it depends how many Javelin's you're holding. Even without the feat you can throw two draw one and throw it (or stab with it)
Extended Signature
Yep... but if you have a bow...shoot 3 times and draw your sword....I think I'm trying to put to much realism into fantasy...my dagger wielding/ Throwing fighter/swashbuckler just doesn't feel as cool when a sling is better for him then the daggers...same damage, longer range...ammunition rule.
Side note on javelins: light skirmishing troops during the Roman republic (Velites) usually carried three javelins (one readied, two held in the left hand, that also held a round, center grip boss held shield). Heavier throwing spears like the hasta (therefore the name Hastati for the troops) and the later pilum were also used the same wy, but due to the higher weight, usually only carried in pairs (one in the right hand, one in the shield hand).
D&D is very odd, when it comes to its action economy for stowing/drawing weapons & switching weapons (+ loading ammunition).
I believe RAW and RAI actually agree that you can make a throw weapon attack with each attack of your attack action without having to use an attack to draw a new weapon. Namely the "use item" action is a full action and cannot replace an attack of the attack action in the first place (edit: grapples amd shoves can replace attacks).
Darts and javelins can actually go into a quiver for easier access for throwing. And remember, you do NOT actually need two weapon fighting to attack with a weapon in each hand with extra attack, it is only for attacking with the bonus action.
Seemed to have a lot of answers building off each other in the wrong direction...
You only have one free action to draw a weapon during your turn. If you want to draw another it requires an action. Therefore you can only throw one weapon at your enemy if it is not already drawn. If it is already drawn, you can throw it as well asy draw and throw another. If you already have two throwing weapons drawn, you can throw both of these as well as draw and throw another.
It is also important to note that Javelins cannot be thrown as a bonus action, while daggers can, due to the Light property.
Great. Now I'm confused. While I would be willing to accept "Oh, okay I can't draw and throw 3 weapons in 1 action," I can't find anything omiting darts from this restriction. They're basically arrows without the bow. And I refuse to accept that you can draw a pebble from a bag, put it in a sling, spin it, and release it faster than you can draw and throw a dart (which to practiced throwers would be a single movement).
More over, now I cant find where in the rules it says bows use dexterity. And I'm getting really ticked off at how unclear many of the rules are.
"Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
Some spells also require an attack roll. The ability modifier used for a spell attack depends on the spellcasting ability of the spellcaster."
-SRD
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/combat#MakinganAttack
Extended Signature
Ah. Thank you. That mini crisis has been delt with.
Now I just need to get over "throwing darts being inferior to a rock in a hanky" and I'll be done agonizing over this thread.
Well I have an invisible javelin launcher that uses javelins as ammunition.
Seriously folks, one free action to ready all weapons to be thrown that round. 2 daggers in one hand while the throwing hand gets the third. It is a non action to pass a dagger from one hand to the throwing hand. Alternatively you could free action to stick 3 javelins in the sand until you throw them one by one in much the same way.
The crux of the argument is this; it is unreasonable to say a character with 3 attacks using a sling and stones gets 3 attacks but a character throwing stones gets less.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Thrown melee weapons are more versatile than ranged weapons. You can use them in melee, or throw them if necessary. If you attack with a bow at 5' range, you're attacking with Disadvantage. If you attack with a handaxe, or javelin, you're not (unless for some inscrutable reason you're throwing it at someone within melee range). Darts, though, are the odd man out: they're thrown, not ammunition, so you need to draw each one to throw it, but they're not thrown melee weapons, but rather ranged weapons (which at least means you can use Sharpshooter with them, while you can't with javelins or handaxes).
Just pointing that out as a balancing factor between thrown melee weapons (which need to be drawn) and ammunition ranged weapons (whose ammunition is drawn as part of the attack). A DM might decide that's not good enough, and allow thrown weapons to be drawn as part of the attack, of course, although I wouldn't.
crossbow expert takes away the disadvantage for ranged attacks while in melee range. which, to me, indicates there was no balancing focused on the Oveepowered handaxe exploit all the munchkins are using. I feel that thrown weapons are balanced around cost, weight and size. you just wouldn't carry 12 javelins around to last you 4 rounds. whereas a quiver or case or magazine are all designed for that. and so the DM doesn't need to not allow you citing a very dubious case for the draw a weapon rule. he can simple ask, did you pay for those? what is your encumbrance at? or how ar these weapons stored, on you belt, in a pack? forcing the player to be reasonable. and 3 javelins in the 1st tound to spring an ambush is totally reasonable.
there is also the question of dwarven thrower . if the fly back happens immediately... why couldn't you take all your extra attacks?
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
I wish that finesse thrown weapons (darts/daggers) would get a simple addition to the rules allowing them to be drawn and thrown as per the ammunition rule.
Thanks by the way. At least I'm not the only one that's not sure how it works. Appreciate the comments and opions.
Why would drawing count as part of the attack for throwing, but not for melee, though? Why is drawing a javelin near instantaneous when you're going to throw it, but not hen you're gonna stab with it?
Crossbow Expert is a Feat. The fact that it eliminates the Disadvantage incurred by attacking with a ranged weapon point blank (plus its other benefits) is balanced by the loss of an ability score increase, and the opportunity cost of not getting another Feat.
Dwarven Thrower, since it returns to your hand immediately, does not have an issue with having to draw between attacks.