I am having difficulty at my current table I play at. It seems that everybody uses the term "melee" indiscriminately, including the DM. Essentially it's as if any Attack counts as a "melee" attack during battle. Yet, reading RAW, we see that some weapons are classed as "melee weapons", and some are classed as "ranged weapons." And then of course there is spellcasting.
As I have leveled up as a Paladin this is messing with my ability to manage my assorted Smites. Many Smites specify "melee weapon attack" and/or simple "weapon attack" I call what I intend to do and clarify what I can get away with. Yet I'm being allowed to use and even stack Smites regardless of what my attack consists of. I keep trying to follow what I read. Yet people are becoming irritated that I seem to have CRS. (Can't Remember 💩) It seems as if play at this table isn't even close to RAW. I get it, the DM can do whatever the hell they please. But this is messing with my mind!!!! (this is a question of semantics, and I'm mildly OCD 🤪)
So, considering RAW, and I later wind up at a different table, do I personally have this correct? I don't get to cast a spell, or use a ranged weapon, and throw in a Smite for good measure do I?
Now in the past, I have once or twice brought conflict with RAW to my DM's attention. Always before or after game time. (I despise rules lawyering during play.) But I may let this slide as we are nearing the end of this campaign (CoS)
If you could give a clear example of what you mean, that could help the hive-mind figure out what you're looking for here. But to clarify: a Melee attack is a codified specific type of attack in DND, whereas a Ranged attack is also a separate type of attack.
Weapon and Spell attacks are two other types that could be added to the others, depending on the circumstances. I won't explain them other than to say spell attacks use magic and weapon attacks...don't. For example, hitting something with a sword is a Melee Weapon attack. Firing a crossbow is a Ranged Weapon attack. Using a 2nd level spell Shadow Blade, you would attack with a Melee Spell attack. Using the 1st level spell Guiding Bolt would be a Ranged Spell attack.
I give these examples to them further clarify the paladin's Divine Smite vs other 'Smite' spells. Divine Smite is an ability that a Paladin has where they can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage *when they land a Melee Weapon attack*. So hitting using a sword, etc will let you use a spell slot to get extra damage via Divine Smite.
Smite spells are slightly different - every one of them have a casting time of 1 bonus action, and the effect is to empower your *next* Melee Weapon attack. So, you can use a bonus action to cast Searing Smite on your turn. Then, you can use your action to make a Melee Weapon attack. Let's assume you hit with your hammer that you're wielding. Since it's a Melee Weapon attack, your Searing Smite damage/effect is added. But, since you landed a Melee Weapon attack and you're a Paladin, you can choose to expend an extra spell slot to deal more damage with your Divine Smite ability.
Smites can stack, inasmuch as a Paladin's Divine Smite can stack with the Smite spells, so long as you're using the correct type of attack.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Perfect, my fine gentlepersons. 😀That clarifies a LOT!
Thezzaruz, your post exemplifies my own thinking. And Van Zoeren, your post fits my own thinking and as long as I can remember how you're putting it, that will save me emmbarrassment at a different table. 👍
It is confusing. I wish the authors had used different terms.
First we have types of weapons. There is disagreement on how many of these there are. • A "melee weapon" is something on the Melee Weapons table. • A "ranged weapon" is something on the Ranged Weapons table. • An "improvised weapon" is an item not on the Weapons tables. • There is disagreement on what a body part (fist, foot, elbow, claws, horns, tail, etc) is. Some tables define them as "improvised weapons", some tables define them as "natural weapons", some tables further split "natural weapons" from "unarmed strikes".
Second we have types of attacks. There are exactly four of these. • A "melee weapon attack" is hitting a foe with something you are holding. • A "ranged weapon attack" is hitting a foe with something you either threw at them or used a launcher to send at them. • A "melee spell attack" is hitting them with something produced by a spell. • A "ranged spell attack" is hitting them with something produced by a spell.
Confusingly, the two lists do not correspond.
For example, if you throw a handaxe at someone then you are making a ranged weapon attack using a melee weapon.
There is disagreement on the correspondance.
For example, if you hold a bow and hit someone with it then you are making a melee weapon attack, but there is disagreement on whether you are making it with a ranged weapon or an improvised weapon. For example, if you throw a battleaxe at someone with it then you are making a ranged weapon attack, but there is disagreement on whether you are making it with a melee weapon or an improvised weapon.
The good news is that features that depend on these are usually well phrased.
For example, the Paladin Divine Smite ability says, "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack" which means it works with melee weapons and improvised weapons and unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
It is confusing. I wish the authors had used different terms.
First we have types of weapons. There is disagreement on how many of these there are. • A "melee weapon" is something on the Melee Weapons table. • A "ranged weapon" is something on the Ranged Weapons table. • An "improvised weapon" is an item not on the Weapons tables. • There is disagreement on what a body part (fist, foot, elbow, claws, horns, tail, etc) is. Some tables define them as "improvised weapons", some tables define them as "natural weapons", some tables further split "natural weapons" from "unarmed strikes".
Second we have types of attacks. There are exactly four of these. • A "melee weapon attack" is hitting a foe with something you are holding. • A "ranged weapon attack" is hitting a foe with something you either threw at them or used a launcher to send at them. • A "melee spell attack" is hitting them with something produced by a spell. • A "ranged spell attack" is hitting them with something produced by a spell.
Confusingly, the two lists do not correspond.
For example, if you throw a handaxe at someone then you are making a ranged weapon attack using a melee weapon.
There is disagreement on the correspondance.
For example, if you hold a bow and hit someone with it then you are making a melee weapon attack, but there is disagreement on whether you are making it with a ranged weapon or an improvised weapon. For example, if you throw a battleaxe at someone with it then you are making a ranged weapon attack, but there is disagreement on whether you are making it with a melee weapon or an improvised weapon.
The good news is that features that depend on these are usually well phrased.
For example, the Paladin Divine Smite ability says, "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack" which means it works with melee weapons and improvised weapons and unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
Exactly! And I'm sure that this is what has lead to the discrepancy in play with my current group. Sometimes semantics IS important.
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I am having difficulty at my current table I play at. It seems that everybody uses the term "melee" indiscriminately, including the DM. Essentially it's as if any Attack counts as a "melee" attack during battle. Yet, reading RAW, we see that some weapons are classed as "melee weapons", and some are classed as "ranged weapons." And then of course there is spellcasting.
As I have leveled up as a Paladin this is messing with my ability to manage my assorted Smites. Many Smites specify "melee weapon attack" and/or simple "weapon attack" I call what I intend to do and clarify what I can get away with. Yet I'm being allowed to use and even stack Smites regardless of what my attack consists of. I keep trying to follow what I read. Yet people are becoming irritated that I seem to have CRS. (Can't Remember 💩) It seems as if play at this table isn't even close to RAW. I get it, the DM can do whatever the hell they please. But this is messing with my mind!!!! (this is a question of semantics, and I'm mildly OCD 🤪)
So, considering RAW, and I later wind up at a different table, do I personally have this correct? I don't get to cast a spell, or use a ranged weapon, and throw in a Smite for good measure do I?
Now in the past, I have once or twice brought conflict with RAW to my DM's attention. Always before or after game time. (I despise rules lawyering during play.) But I may let this slide as we are nearing the end of this campaign (CoS)
"Ranged" and "Melee" certainly are different things. And if some other effect only says it works/effects one of them then it only works for that.
If you could give a clear example of what you mean, that could help the hive-mind figure out what you're looking for here. But to clarify: a Melee attack is a codified specific type of attack in DND, whereas a Ranged attack is also a separate type of attack.
Weapon and Spell attacks are two other types that could be added to the others, depending on the circumstances. I won't explain them other than to say spell attacks use magic and weapon attacks...don't. For example, hitting something with a sword is a Melee Weapon attack. Firing a crossbow is a Ranged Weapon attack. Using a 2nd level spell Shadow Blade, you would attack with a Melee Spell attack. Using the 1st level spell Guiding Bolt would be a Ranged Spell attack.
I give these examples to them further clarify the paladin's Divine Smite vs other 'Smite' spells. Divine Smite is an ability that a Paladin has where they can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage *when they land a Melee Weapon attack*. So hitting using a sword, etc will let you use a spell slot to get extra damage via Divine Smite.
Smite spells are slightly different - every one of them have a casting time of 1 bonus action, and the effect is to empower your *next* Melee Weapon attack. So, you can use a bonus action to cast Searing Smite on your turn. Then, you can use your action to make a Melee Weapon attack. Let's assume you hit with your hammer that you're wielding. Since it's a Melee Weapon attack, your Searing Smite damage/effect is added. But, since you landed a Melee Weapon attack and you're a Paladin, you can choose to expend an extra spell slot to deal more damage with your Divine Smite ability.
Smites can stack, inasmuch as a Paladin's Divine Smite can stack with the Smite spells, so long as you're using the correct type of attack.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Perfect, my fine gentlepersons. 😀That clarifies a LOT!
Thezzaruz, your post exemplifies my own thinking. And Van Zoeren, your post fits my own thinking and as long as I can remember how you're putting it, that will save me emmbarrassment at a different table. 👍
It is confusing. I wish the authors had used different terms.
First we have types of weapons. There is disagreement on how many of these there are.
• A "melee weapon" is something on the Melee Weapons table.
• A "ranged weapon" is something on the Ranged Weapons table.
• An "improvised weapon" is an item not on the Weapons tables.
• There is disagreement on what a body part (fist, foot, elbow, claws, horns, tail, etc) is. Some tables define them as "improvised weapons", some tables define them as "natural weapons", some tables further split "natural weapons" from "unarmed strikes".
Second we have types of attacks. There are exactly four of these.
• A "melee weapon attack" is hitting a foe with something you are holding.
• A "ranged weapon attack" is hitting a foe with something you either threw at them or used a launcher to send at them.
• A "melee spell attack" is hitting them with something produced by a spell.
• A "ranged spell attack" is hitting them with something produced by a spell.
Confusingly, the two lists do not correspond.
For example, if you throw a handaxe at someone then you are making a ranged weapon attack using a melee weapon.
There is disagreement on the correspondance.
For example, if you hold a bow and hit someone with it then you are making a melee weapon attack, but there is disagreement on whether you are making it with a ranged weapon or an improvised weapon.
For example, if you throw a battleaxe at someone with it then you are making a ranged weapon attack, but there is disagreement on whether you are making it with a melee weapon or an improvised weapon.
The good news is that features that depend on these are usually well phrased.
For example, the Paladin Divine Smite ability says, "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack" which means it works with melee weapons and improvised weapons and unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
Exactly! And I'm sure that this is what has lead to the discrepancy in play with my current group. Sometimes semantics IS important.